More Slug Madness! Mossberg 695 & Accurate 73-470S

[Ranch Dog]

First shots downrange from the Mossberg 695!

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/695/reloading/images/73-470S-M695_01.jpg

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/695/reloading/images/73-470S-M695_02.jpg

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/695/reloading/images/73-470S-M695_03.jpg

I thought I had taken pictures of the firearm and 100-yard target but didn't. The 100-yard shooting was outstanding, <2.5 MOA. I'm going to try to do some 50-yard shooting this morning while recording velocities. That depends if hogs are in the hog trap or not.

[Ranch Dog]

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/695/targets/082519_01.jpg

Here are the 50 and 100-yard targets. When I finished getting the scope sighted at 25-yards, I only had four rounds left. I shot two at 50-yards, in that they looked good, I went ahead and shot the last two at 100-yards. By the way, I finally quit fooling around and bought a 12Ga laser bore sighter.

[longbow]

Wow! That's a lot of wad column! However, if it works... which it seems to do.

Have you noticed any less "BOOM" and recoil using the card and felt wads with no plastic gas seal? As I mentioned after you posted your wad slug results using just the shotcup and card wads, I tried the same thing several years ago but found I got severe gas cutting of the plastic shotcups and seemingly poor powder burn. My guess is that there was too much leakage past the nitro card and waxed card wads so the Blue Dot wouldn't build enough pressure for good burn. Regardless, it didn't work for me.

I have a bit of old timey load data from pre plastic gas seal era and powder charges are higher to make up for leakage.

I wonder if the extra length of wad column for 3" especially with that short slug helps with sealing.

I also wonder if the large 0.733" bore in my single shot smoothbore results in not enough compression on the wads to seal? What is your groove diameter?

Regardless, you seem to have this working for you in at least two instances. Good going Ranch Dog!

I have to get an order into BPI Canada and get a bunch of stuff so I'm going to order 12 ga. nitro card wads, waxed card wads and felt wads and give this another go! My Slugster has a tighter bore so I'll use that.

That is a nice looking little slug!

Did you chrono velocities?

Keep up the good work!

Longbow

[Markopolo]

that is some valid wondering LB.. i too am wondering!!! really nice though RD!!!!

[bikerbeans]

RD,

Is your slug OD greater than the barrel groove diameter? I was thinking the nitro card wouldn't be a good gas seal but if the slug is sealing the bore then no problem. Sure can't complain about the results.

BB

[longbow]

BB... good point! In this case yes, the slug could well be doing a bunch of, if not all, the sealing. RD also had good results using a wad slug in shotcup, with cushion leg and gas seal cut off, over a similar all card wad column. It worked well for Ranch Dog. When I tried basically the same thing a few years ago results were not at all impressive. Gas leakage was obvious and shredded the shotcups.

I plan on stealing Ranch Dog's good ideas and giving them a try in my smoothbores.

Hah! Still got to get to installing the rifled choke tube as well! I got distracted again. Seems to be an ongoing theme lately.

Glad to see Ranch Dog forging ahead and winning!

Longbow

[jmort]

There is an art
Building a proper wad column
Super cool

[Ranch Dog]

Hey guys, I corrected the text on the first image of the components; I had labeled it a 50mm. It is 21mm.

I've just come down the hill from the range; I'm beat up and hot, but happy!

A couple of comments

This slug gun wants to be held. The best accuracy is shot by just holding on to the beast, saddled up tight into the shoulder without the life vest I use. Yeah, its a beating!

I shot a couple of sessions today. The hits are walking to the right with each shot as the barrel heats up. I hadn't thought about free-floating the barrel as I did with the Marlin 512. I might take a nap and then get to work on it. I'm toying with whether I want to do that right now or not. The first two shots are in there, but then it goes south. I want to hog hunt tonight, and it will only be one shot. Yea or nea? I might shoot one shot this afternoon and if it goes were it was sent, I probably take it out.

In this image, shot at 100 yards, the shots are 1 through 4, all moving to the right of the last shot. I did not shoot the fifth shot as I figured it would leave the backing. Shots was a minute or less apart. The barrel was very hot. No doubt the stock needs to be relieved.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/695/targets/082519_01B.jpg

[Ranch Dog]

The groove diameter of the barrel is .731". The slugs, coated, are .737. In the last 24 hours, I've shot about 30 rounds, and there has been no leading.

Yes, the shots are much quieter than using plastic pressure wads.

I'm not using any compression other than that offered by forming the star-crimp. I use the BPI HandyRam to seat the components.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/case_prep/shotshell/bpi_handyram.jpg

Someone is bound to ask; no, not interested in roll crimping. I've been there and have the t-shirt. With my two other slug guns, a star crimp always wins the MOA comparison, and the hull is immediately reloadable without conditioning. The 73-470S shot very well in my Marlin 512, in that rifle both crimps were compared, and the star won.

The following might address some questions concerning the nitro card. It serves two purposes for me. Primarily it keeps the components "squared up" in the hull. I firmly believe that if the component stack isn't squared to each other in the hull, the "bullet" won't be when it leaves the hull. The image below is a great example. The nitro card did not go down square on the powder.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/case_prep/shotshell/square_stack.jpg

Looking down in the hull, you will notice the nitro card out of alignment, but you will not see it with the softer waxed cards. At this point, it is easy to release the nitro card with a lead point of a pencil and start the hull over from scratch. Waxed cards are a witch to get out of the hull. I have three or four thickness of nitro cards, and they will also be used for the slight changes in volume different powders will bring. Everything that I'm working with; the Lee slug with the tail-less Lightning pressure wad in the Western Field 170, the STI Sabot in the Marlin 512, and the Accurate bullet in the 695 will be shot with Blue Dot, Longshot, and Steel. I will try the bullet again in the Marlin and the Western Field, but I'm not going back to the Lee in a rifled barrel. The 695 will see the STI sabot and Hammerhead as well.

[dsh1106]

Which laser bore sighter did you get?

[Ranch Dog]

Which laser bore sighter did you get?
A cheap one on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/312474008690

I have a spot on the back of my barn wall (25 yards from the front) with a bullseye marked and then inch references above it. A cheap universal laser with collets has worked well for me with all my other firearms.

I want to take a cold barrel test shot but still must wait. It is 100º outside. There are some thunderstorms to the south that might cool it down a bit. I probably should pull the stock, ought to have time to get it all back together.

[Hogtamer]

I'm with you on the fold crimps. Loads that I had pressure tested show less consistency on my roll crimps than star crimped, even though the roll crimps looked and felt "perfect." Also the clear hulls are a huge plus. Nothing like eyeballing the finished load and being able to observe the actual fit of the various components. I disagree about the hard card over powder vs. a good plastic seal like the x12x, especially in the generous internals of the Cheddite hulls. I have both the 3/8 and 1/2" versions of the wads you are using and 1/8 hard cards if needed. Also the terrific clear frangible plastic os cards that BPI sells. And yes, you are beat up launching that big lead. Don't discount the flinch factor unless you're a 250 lb. young stud with a 50" chest!

[Markopolo]

flinch??? mine is more of a permant tick.. :?

[Ranch Dog]

I'm live from a tower blind in South Texas! Not with the 695 though. When I was looking at the fit of the stock, I noticed that the scope was slipping a bit. Decided not to shoot it, get the work completed, and then hit it again.

I got showered up to head out, my wife looked at me and said "what happened to your shoulder?" I replied, "slug gun."

I'm in the blind with one of my favorite bolt guns, a Savage 10FCM scout chambered in 7.62x39.

Beautiful evening, thunderstorms on the complete horizon. Shady and cooling because of it. South Texas is a funny place. Here it is August, but it sounds like November or December. I've already heard three centerfire shots, a mile or so away and different directions. All sounded like they connected. Being this is Saturday night, this will continue throughout the night into the morning. A CF shot every 20 to 30 minutes.

Just had a nice young 8 walk out below the tower!

247242

[Hogtamer]

That dimple behind the shoulder is an old bowhunter's eye magnet!

[Ranch Dog]

Still out here, hogs haven't showed... bastages! I will give it another hour. Seen a number of very large bucks after dark.

[Markopolo]

go get em michael.. patience is almost always rewarded.. just hang in there! but bu now its 9:45 there.. not sure when shooting light ends there.. must be dark by now

[Cap'n Morgan]

Michael, your load needs an X12X seal badly! The "wad ash" in your rifling picture is unburnt powder residue. My experience with Blue Dot is mostly with heavy shot loads, and I believe BD works best with payloads from 700 grains and upwards. You'll get more uniform velocity (and higher speed & pressure) using a dedicated over-powder seal so remember to reduce the load a bit...

[Ranch Dog]

go get em michael.. patience is almost always rewarded.. just hang in there! but bu now its 9:45 there.. not sure when shooting light ends there.. must be dark by now
It's dark by 8:00 now, you can hunt around the clock here. I stayed until 10, no hogs, and there was a line of thunderstorms push up on my position. On camera, this group of pigs shows up immediately at sundown or 2:30 to 4:30 in the morning.


Michael, your load needs an X12X seal badly! The "wad ash" in your rifling picture is unburnt powder residue. My experience with Blue Dot is mostly with heavy shot loads, and I believe BD works best with payloads from 700 grains and upwards. You'll get more uniform velocity (and higher speed & pressure) using a dedicated over-powder seal so remember to reduce the load a bit...
Cap'n, when I first looked down the barrel, I thought that it was unburnt powder. I placed a plastic bag over the muzzle and ports and used a light charge of compressed air to collect a sample. I've seen a lot of unburnt powder in my life, and this is not powder. When you touch a flake with the tip of a dampened toothpick, it dissolves. Any unburnt powder will not do that.

I do have the X12X seals, and every other 12Ga gas seal that BPI offers. I can tell you that it takes more pressure to seat the waxed cards than it does that seal which pretty much drops down into the Cheddite hull. What surprised me is that there is enough resistance with the waxed cards that the wad punches on my presses will cause the cards to start to fold back. The bottom of the waxed card will become a bit conical, and the edges on the top side of the card will begin to push up around the punch. That's why I went to the HandyRam and didn't worry about adding compression. The stack of cards is a very tight fit. I did notice that the Lee instructions state that the wad punch is to be used only with plastic wads.

[725]

Great thread. Wish I had more time to tinker with the shotgun. I already have my hunting load but this stuff always interests me.

[Ranch Dog]

Great thread. Wish I had more time to tinker with the shotgun. I already have my hunting load but this stuff always interests me.
"thinker" is a great description! I'm not a shot reloader, I intended to get there about four years ago, right after I finished up a slug load. Pffft!

I've ended up with shelves of components. I have a conditioned storage room here on the place, one wall of shelves must look like a portion of the BPI warehouse. My wife shakes her head.

[longbow]

I can say from experience that Cap'n Morgan is right on better sealing and if you look at old timey loads pre plastic gas seal era powder charges were higher to make up for leakage. Not sure how predictable that would be but pretty much all modern load data is for plastic gas seal. BPI does publish some shot loads using all card/fiber wads but not sure how useful they'd be for slug loads.

However, I know what Michael is trying to accomplish so understand why he is using all card wads with nitro card over powder wad... a nice solid and aligned wad column.

Some of my gas seals have failed both on cushion leg wads and loads I have made up using the gas seal from a cushion leg wad cut off and under a hard card wad column. I always look for wads after shooting and especially if accuracy is not good. There is always a reason and wads are a big part of it. I've seen lots of gas seal failures.

I have not tried dedicated gas seals like the X12X. As I've mentioned before, reloading "stuff" is scarce around here so I have to order in and just haven't. I am running off old supplies I got many years ago when I could still shop in the States which is about and hour away to my favourite "local" store, Clark's Allsports in Colville Washington. Those days are over now as we foreigners are not allowed to buy reloading stuff in the States any more.

I'd be interested to see what would happen accuracy wise if you replaced the nitro card wad with a plastic gas seal then adjusted the wad column for crimp. If the gas seal is of good quality and well supported I'd think it would work well and provide better sealing but of course that is speculation on my part. My feeling is that the lip of the gas seal fails when the gas seal is cocked slightly in the bore then leaves the muzzle unevenly. However, that trip through the forcing cone may result in some blow by due to excess clearance and that might result in scalloped edges on the gas seal. Maybe less likely with nitro card wad? It would take some comparison testing to be sure.

Also, in this case with oversize powder coated slugs I'd have to think that the slug itself would be sealing the bore just as a boolit does and the wads would only see "equalization" pressure as 10,000 PSI filled in to the base of the slug. A wad slug or slightly loose slug (as many are) would not be sealing the bore.

Michael: Are these slugs ACWW or soft lead? Just curious. At 0.006" over groove diameter that is quite a bit of squeeze down.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

LB,

I think RD had the alloy listed on the pics in his post.

I think his "oversize" slug is the key to his accuracy as it aligns the slug in the bore. As far as the swaging of the slug when you pull the trigger no big deal to me. I have shot heat treated slugs that were 0.01" over groove diameter without a problem.

I don't see a x12x as a real solution. I have found they are always loose in the hull so must bump up to work, which can result in distorted or damaged seals.

If not for recoil, the solution to an accurate 12ga slug load would be to omit the wads and fillers. Even with a very slow powder this approach puts you in Ed Hubel's world.

BB

[Markopolo]

are you saying BB, that it might be best to crimp a slug that is slightly over bore size into a all brass shell and just load the proper powder amount.. pretty much like you would a rifle? sticking with the common rules of reloading lead boolits with the pressures in the neighborhood of 11,000 or less?

i do wonder what that would be like in a smooth bore shotgun.. with the proper crimp, sizer, and so forth, why not? it would be much easier to get a 2 2/3 in shell properly centered into a 3 inch barrel. the jump for centering would be easier to accomplish?

what do I know anyway.. just mulling..

[Ranch Dog]

Michael: Are these slugs ACWW or soft lead? Just curious. At 0.006" over groove diameter that is quite a bit of squeeze down.
The bullets are plumber's lead and tin. I always keep some as a sample before any treatment, the naked bullets are .734," and the coated are .737". Percentage-wise, .737" to .731" is slight less than .311" is to .308". With that in mind, the difference did not both me.

BHN is 13.5 for both samples. I bake them at a very stable 400º for 15 minutes, then let them air cool. My oven is big enough to do 100 slugs at a time. I know a house remodeler in the community, works on a lot of old homes pulling plumbing, vents, and window seals and counterweights. He brings it all to me and each winter I smelt it into ingots.

I took the stock off and it is putting a lot of pressure on the barrel. It takes a lot of pressure to get it back on.

[Ranch Dog]

I don't see a x12x as a real solution. I have found they are always loose in the hull so must bump up to work, which can result in distorted or damaged seals.
Using transparent hulls demonstrate this. When I've dropped a shell with the X12X or any of the other seals and most column pressure wads, I find particles of powder ahead of the seal. Not so with the current set up.

Another thing that I don't like with the plastic components is the trash on the range. I live on my place, and the entrance to my pastures are down the range. In the last four years, I've sent about 1000 shells worth of components downrange. Not a lot given my best years find 10X that in CF components spent in a single year. This spring, I got busy and cleaned it up. I'm like that, I hate trash here or anywhere else. I putting a lot of lead in the berms, but they will be mined in the furture. I figured that there must be a better way to treat my place. Even yesterday, every day I shoot for that matter, I'm still picking a small can of gas seals up. The wads were easy; the seals are a witch. At least the Sabot Technologies Sabot Pressure wads are piled up in the berm.

The only thing I find now is the nitro cards at about 15'. With this latest load, I see some of the 21mm waxed at 35 yards. They are reasonably intact, a bit of erosion on the outside but a good solid core. I pick them up if I see them, but I suspect birds would pull them apart for packing nests.

Oh, I did get a boar hog in a trap last night in the area I was hunting. I forgot I had set it, but remembered and went out at 9:00. My hound dog was very pleased!

[longbow]

Okay, so your slugs are pretty soft.

I tend to agree with BB that squeeze down may be over rated as a problem. Not only is the percentage fairly small as you point out but the slug gets a running start before it meets the constriction of the barrel so it has some momentum behind it already. Even in a 3" hull the slug is jumping through the forcing cone before it sees any resistance and constriction.

I know a guy who accidentally got a 0.735" RB load into a full choked gun and shot it. No damage to the gun he said and that was with ACWW. Also, from what I understand about the Paradox guns which were essentially a 12 ga. side by with rifled chokes, the slugs started out at 0.740" and choke constriction was 0.690" at the lands so quite the squeeze there.

I am going to follow your lead with all card wad column and give that a go. Even if there is leakage who cares if it works and gives good accuracy!

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Cap'n, when I first looked down the barrel, I thought that it was unburnt powder. I placed a plastic bag over the muzzle and ports and used a light charge of compressed air to collect a sample. I've seen a lot of unburnt powder in my life, and this is not powder. When you touch a flake with the tip of a dampened toothpick, it dissolves. Any unburnt powder will not do that.

Now that's interesting. The residue must be powder ashes then, but I still think your load would benefit from an over-powder seal. Don't be fooled by the pressure needed to seat the wads; the lips of a plastic seal will still expand and seal much better than a felt wad (and a nitro card doesn't seal at all until it reach the bore). Winchester/Olin found that a bottle cap shaped paper card provided a much better seal than normal wads as the pressure would help expand the lips of the seal against the walls of the shell in the chamber (which is a critical point as the pressure spikes long before the payload has entered the bore).

[Greg5278]

BPI sells some nice heavy waxed Cards that seal pretty well. They don't shred and Tear under Pressure.
The updated X12X would be best, and save Powder. Powder is usually more costly than the Seal.
I mused a bunch of different things but that seal seemed to work best. I had more Seal Failures with the BPGS than anything else, even using BPI Loads. It might be good for Shot Loads, but not for Slugs.

Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Ranch Dog, I did enjoy reading your post, thanks for sharing it.
Can't wait to hear more.
That 73-470 just might be a good candidate for a Brenneke style slug with wad attached
I was thinking of this slug too as Brenneke tho a bit heavier at 547 gr
https://i.imgur.com/rSgGzj4.jpg
Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Greg5278]

Okay, so Who has the Mold for the 74-470? I might be able to work something up.
Does anyone want tom trade Slugs for Lead/Tin/Alloy?
The results would be available to all.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[longbow]

Greg:

I don't think Ranch Dog posts here much anymore. He hangs out on the Lee site.

So, I'll answer... the 73-470 is an Accurate Molds mould:

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-470S

Longbow

[glockky]

Greg:

I don't think Ranch Dog posts here much anymore. He hangs out on the Lee site.

So, I'll answer... the 73-470 is an Accurate Molds mould:

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-470S

Longbow

Didn’t even realize Lee had a forum

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning, anyone looking for Ranch Dog?
Look no further:
https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7307711/Re:_Anybody_load_Lee_slugs_for

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[missionary5155]

Lee does not have an Official site.. It is owned and operated by RD. There is also another RD site called Rossi Rifleman.

[longbow]

I dunno...

https://www.lee-loader.com/viewforum.php?f=43

Ranch Dog is/was posting here. I don't see anything newer than 2020 though. Maybe old news and my old memory?

Longbow

PS: Okay, I lied... there is nothing newer than 2020 on the Cast Bullets, Buckshot and slug page but there are current discussions on other pages. Is this not a Lee forum?

[missionary5155]

The Lee Loader Forum is the property of Ranch Dog.

[longbow]

Well, there you go then... I learned something today!

And about learning something Ranch Dog put a lot of effort into developing his hard card wad stack for the Lee slugs. It was very generous of him to share the details.

I'm sure the same issues of the wad stack leaving the bore all square to the bore applies to any slug and round balls. I found much better accuracy with 0.735" RB's over a hard card wad column with plastic gas seal over the powder than with a cushion leg or even fiber wad under the ball.

I have some stock Lee slugs and some Brenneke'ized Lee slugs loaded up now over a similar wad stack except I used the plastic gas seal from the wad over the powder.

We'll see how they shoot shortly.

Longbow