1903 Springfield 30-06

[Battis]

I realized that I have an unplanned military firearms timeline going. For rifles, I have an 1868 .50-70 Trapdoor, a .45-70 Trapdoor, an 1896 Krag carbine, an 1898 Krag rifle, then I have a 1917 Winchester .30-06. I guess what's missing is a 1903 Springfield .30-06 (and a Garand on the other end).
A local shop has a 1903 .30-06 for around $700. I've read that it might not be a good idea to shoot an early 1903 (not sure of the date on the one in the shop), so do I want to spend the moola for a wall hanger?
Suggestions?

[Winger Ed.]

Check Gunbroker or some other sales site and see what they're going for.

Dig around and find the serial number block that didn't have a good heat treat, you won't want one of them at all.

[SSGOldfart]

Is it a 1903A3or 1903A4? 2 grove or 4 grove barrel ?

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Battis, until you get the serial # you want and I forget what it is, the year the barrel was made is stamped near the front sight.

[Battis]

Is it a 1903A3or 1903A4? 2 grove or 4 grove barrel ?


I saw the rifle last week, gave it the once over, but it stuck with me. I'll have to go back and get more info. I called and they still have it.

[Outpost75]

Good source of info is: http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1903-m1903a3/

WARNING ON “LOW-NUMBER” SPRINGFIELDS

M1903 rifles made before February 1918 utilized receivers and bolts which were single heat-treated by a method that rendered some of them brittle and liable to fracture when fired, exposing the shooter to a risk of serious injury. It proved impossible to determine, without destructive testing, which receivers and bolts were so affected and therefore potentially dangerous.

To solve this problem, the Ordnance Department commenced double heat treatment of receivers and bolts. This was commenced at Springfield Armory at approximately serial number 800,000 and at Rock Island Arsenal at exactly serial number 285,507. All Springfields made after this change are commonly called “high number” rifles. Those Springfields made before this change are commonly called “low-number” rifles.

In view of the safety risk the Ordnance Department withdrew from active service all “low-number” Springfields. During WWII, however, the urgent need for rifles resulted in the rebuilding and reissuing of many “low-number” as well as “high-number” Springfields. The bolts from such rifles were often mixed during rebuilding, and did not necessarily remain with the original receiver.

Generally speaking, “low number” bolts can be distinguished from “high-number” bolts by the angle at which the bolt handle is bent down. All “low number” bolts have the bolt handle bent straight down, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt body. High number bolts have “swept-back” (or slightly rearward curved) bolt handles.

A few straight-bent bolts are of the double heat-treat type, but these are not easily identified, and until positively proved otherwise ANY straight-bent bolt should be assumed to be “low number”. All original swept-back bolts are definitely “high number”. In addition, any bolt marked “N.S.” (for nickel steel) can be safely regarded as “high number” if obtained directly from CMP (beware of re-marked fakes).

CMP DOES NOT RECOMMEND FIRING ANY SPRINGFIELD RIFLE WITH A ”LOW NUMBER” RECEIVER. SUCH RIFLES SHOULD BE REGARDED AS COLLECTOR’S ITEMS, NOT “SHOOTERS”.

CMP ALSO DOES NOT RECOMMEND FIRING ANY SPRINGFIELD RIFLE, REGARDLESS OF SERIAL NUMBER, WITH A SINGLE HEAT-TREATED “LOW NUMBER” BOLT. SUCH BOLTS, WHILE HISTORICALLY CORRECT FOR DISPLAY WITH A RIFLE OF WWI OR EARLIER VINTAGE, MAY BE DANGEROUS TO USE FOR SHOOTING.

THE UNITED STATES ARMY GENERALLY DID NOT SERIALIZE BOLTS. DO NOT RELY ON ANY SERIAL NUMBER APPEARING ON A BOLT TO DETERMINE WHETHER SUCH BOLT IS “HIGH NUMBER” OR “LOW NUMBER”.

Currently M1903 and M1903A3 models are not available and CMP is not accepting orders.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Early production 1903s are considered unsafe to shoot by many (opinions vary...), and these are Springfield Armory serial numbers below 785,000 and Rock Island Arsenal rifles below 285,508. This information can be found in several publications, and the list varies slightly depending on the source, but not by very much. So you'll most likely want to purchase your M-1903 with a serial number higher than those just stated. Another thing to consider, the 1903s saw extensive use in two world wars plus some smaller ones, and many have been re-barreled, so the date on the top of the barrel behind the rear sight is not truly indicative of when the receiver was made, and one must go by the serial number to determine the date of manufacture; again, data easily found in several publications. Those were the two manufacturers until the Second World War, when they were made by Remington and Smith Corona. The initial production by Remington for several months was close to the original M-1903 design, but as the original production run of parts started to dry up they were gradually replaced by newly manufactured parts of designs easier to produce under wartime conditions, and the eventual result was the M-1903A3 with stamped parts like the barrel bands, sling swivels, butt plate, trigger guard/magazine base, etc., and a receiver sight rather than the original ladder-type. I don't know if the rifles made in the time period between when Remington began producing the 1903 and the A3 ever had finger groove stocks, but I've never seen one and my specimen is without the finger grooves. So the point is that one expects to see a 1903 in one configuration, and a 1903A3 in another configuration, but there was a period between these distinct models in which some variations may be found; all, as far as I know, made by Remington, with the Smith Corona rifles having been of the A3 pattern from the beginning of their production. Many shooters prefer the A3 design, mostly because of the receiver sight, and the low number safety question does not apply. Just like most military surplus rifles, the price is gradually climbing, and $700 for a very nice specimen may not be out of line today. Genuine, original parts are slowly drying up, and there have been after-production runs of many of the component parts -- another thing to be aware of -- some parts of lesser quality than those of government arsenal manufacture. You might want to obtain a spare firing pin (the tip part, not the striker rod), as that's about the only part that sometimes breaks in normal usage. Stay away from National Ordnance receivers which were/are a cast receiver made post-war and not of good quality.

[GARD72977]

I'm in a lot of the same situation you are. I started with a 1884 added a Garand then the 03a3. I have only shot the Garand but I find my self looking at Krags a lot.

You need to decide if you want the 1903 or 03A3. The big difference for me is the rear sight. The O3A3 has a apature rear sight.

[Battis]

There's some great info here. I'm going tomorrow armed with knowledge to check it out. I don't think I'll spend the money if it's not a shooter.

[rockrat]

My LGS has one of those too. 1.2 million S/n and it looks like its been re-barreled with a six groove barrel of 44 date.

[45workhorse]

I have a national ordnance 1903A3. Bought it as a teenager (56 now), I don't how many factory/surplus rounds, I have put through that gun. I only shoot cast in it now. I do not know my serial number of hand. Just my two cents worth.YMMV

[txbirdman]

From what I gather all Remingtons and S/C’s are later production and safe for standard ‘06 ammo. A few years ago I was at a large gun show in Dallas. There was a guy with a Rock Island for sale. The rifle was pristine with a ‘44 Remington barrel. He claimed he was selling it for a widow of his deceased friend (who knows). It appeared to be unfired since it had been rebarreled and refinished. I gave him $500 for it. The s/n was 288xxx range. I’ve yet to fire it. My thinking was that the arsenal would not have reworked a rifle with a questionable receiver.

[reivertom]

I realized that I have an unplanned military firearms timeline going. For rifles, I have an 1868 .50-70 Trapdoor, a .45-70 Trapdoor, an 1896 Krag carbine, an 1898 Krag rifle, then I have a 1917 Winchester .30-06. I guess what's missing is a 1903 Springfield .30-06 (and a Garand on the other end).
A local shop has a 1903 .30-06 for around $700. I've read that it might not be a good idea to shoot an early 1903 (not sure of the date on the one in the shop), so do I want to spend the moola for a wall hanger?
Suggestions?

If it's not an early number "non-shooter" and it's in decent condition, that sounds like a fair price from what I've seen around our area.

[ShooterAZ]

I have a very late Remington 1903, one of the very last before they switched over to the 1903A3. It's a fine CB shooter, although my aging eyes now lean toward the 03A3 sights. I still enjoy taking mine out and ringing the 100 and 200 yard gongs with it. Check the SN and refer back to Outposts excellent post for the low number cutoff. If the rifle and bore is in decent condition, $700 really may not be out of line IMHO.

[SSGOldfart]

I still have three to date a 1903, a 1903A3, and a 1903A4,I 've read all of the warnings approx 34 rifles had problems out of over a million made.I'm still shooting mine.������

[SSGOldfart]

Have a look at m1903.com [smilie=w:

[nicholst55]

I have a national ordnance 1903A3. Bought it as a teenager (56 now), I don't how many factory/surplus rounds, I have put through that gun. I only shoot cast in it now. I do not know my serial number of hand. Just my two cents worth.YMMV

Your rifle has an aftermarket cast receiver and was assembled with milsurp parts by a firm in California. Quality varies from acceptable to downright scary. The serial number range associated with 'low number' receivers is irrelevant to your National Ordnance receiver.

[45workhorse]

Your rifle has an aftermarket cast receiver and was assembled with milsurp parts by a firm in California. Quality varies from acceptable to downright scary. The serial number range associated with 'low number' receivers is irrelevant to your National Ordnance receiver.

Have a good day, sir[smilie=s:

[smithnframe]

About a year ago J&G sales had low number 1903's for $999.00!

[hockeynick39]

An A4 will not have any sights on it other than a scope. It was specifically designed as a sniper model.

https://olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_rifle_m1903a4.php

I have an 03A3 Remington built in 1943. It still has the butt number on it, albeit a little faded currently. Pretty neat and I still shoot it on occasions. Good luck and stay safe!

[Battis]

So, this is what I did. I went to the gun shop bright and early. They still have the 1903. But, I didn't buy it (not yet, anyways). I ended up trading a Mosin, a WSL .351 and a Swedish Mauser 6.5 for a brand new Rock Island 1911 .45.
Gun shops should have resident shrinks available.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Well, did you at least establish what the '03 is?

[Battis]

I'm still working on it. I have to go back today to get the 1911. The 1903 had a high serial number. I think the barrel date was 11 (1911). I want to see what I have left to trade for it before I go back.
I'm glad they didn't tested for ADD when I was young.

[Outpost75]

A 1911 barrel date with a high number receiver suggests a "parts" gun. I would scrutinize markings VERY carefully.

[txbirdman]

The date on the barrel has both month and year. My 1903 Remington's barrel is marked with RA 12 42 which I believe identifies it as a Remington barrel dated December 1942. Maybe you were looking at the month rather than the year.

[Battis]

The serial number is 1415770. The barrel is marked 2-11. Model is 1903.

[ShooterAZ]

It's also possible that it was re-barreled at an arsenal. Is there any cartouches on the stock? My Remington has the FJA stamp, but it also has a RIA/EB arsenal stamp on it. I'm not sure what they did to mine, as it still retains all the "R" marked parts and barrel date matches the SN.

[Battis]

The stock did have some stampings and I wish I took some pics but it was a busy gun shop. But, I plan on going back to check out the 1903 better.

[KenT7021]

Someone may have stamped a 1 on the receiver to make it look like a hi number rifle.The serial number should be centered on the other markings on the receiver ring.

[gnoahhh]

Someone may have stamped a 1 on the receiver to make it look like a hi number rifle.The serial number should be centered on the other markings on the receiver ring.

Bingo. That, or the "2-11" barrel date is a lightly struck "2-41". Ask the gunshop guys to get out their .30-06 headspace gauges too, to make sure that isn't another issue to trip you up if you plan to shoot it.

The low number '03 that I shoot regularly with light cast loads is an early-war USMC rebuild, low number receiver + later double heat treat bolt, complete with Hatcher hole. That salient feature is the only reason I use it.

National Ordnance cast receivers = ticking time bombs in my opinion. If I were king I would dump them all in the Marianas Trench.

[Larry Gibson]

Earliest known evidence of probable SEE and the crux of the problem?

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[Bob Busetti]

Me too!!!

[Baltimoreed]

I also have a growing military rifle collection. Started with a bag-o-garand parts from a friend so I bought the missing pieces and assembled into a nice Garand, then an 1873 Winchester musket, a 1899 Constabulary Krag, a sporterized ‘03 Springfield that I remilitarized, a minty 1896 Krag rifle and a uberti 1866 musket. Also have a norinco 1897 trench gun and a Model 12 Winchester trench that I put together last year.247863
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[Baltimoreed]

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If you’re looking a project, look for a cheap sporter with an undrilled recvr and put it back right. My 1930’s 1903 has a 21 inch bbl but you’d have to look hard to tell. The stock was reshaped from a sanded on scant stock. Cut the grasping grooves on my mini mill. Handy ‘carbine’?

[wildphilhickup]

I found me an 1884 Springfield rifle, 45-70 Trapdoor, at a gun show in Oklahoma in 2014 for $650. The gun was from an estate sale, that's the story. My research has found that it was never issued. Other than some aging, rifle appears unfired.

[Eddie1971]

The low number thing again. I had a SA low number I used for years and just got an RIA LN recently. Original barrel and bolt, was re stocked and had front sight hood added in WW2. I shoot mine with starting loads with 150 grain heads that replicate original loads. Its up to you.

[Rany A]

Your rifle has an aftermarket cast receiver and was assembled with milsurp parts by a firm in California. Quality varies from acceptable to downright scary. The serial number range associated with 'low number' receivers is irrelevant to your National Ordnance receiver.

This is correct, these guns were built from very affordable surplus parts and could be stamped, SantaFe Arms, Golden State Arms or Nat'l Ordnance, they were all investment cast receivers. There has been great controversy about the quality/ safety of them. Samples submitted for proof testing did well but others throughout production behaved like hand grenades. They are prohibited from any CMP competition. On a side note, the owner of the company, facing several law suits, hung himself in a motel room.
In regards to the low number question the OP had, the generic reference of "low number" actions is 800,000 (Springfield, not sure where the 785,000 mentioned earlier came from) but they didn't heat treat their actions in numeric sequence. Springfield also did not record the exact number that they started (like Rock Island did) only that it began in Feb 1918. They would load a couple thousand actions and batch treat them. When this was revealed it was found that some actions under 800,000 probably got the double heat treat but some over 800,000 did not. This is why the CMP did not allow a Springfield action under 810,000 in competition. There is no way to know without damaging testing and this not to be confused with earlier batches that were also burned during heat treat.

[randyrat]

I have a Nation Ordnance 1903A3- sportorized, paid $100 for it..I had it tested by a very qualified gun smith. The gun smith tested the hardness and head spacing, all seamed fine but recommended using the Receiver for a boat anchor.

He also said a steady diet of cast bullet loads are fine, but would not recommend extended use of heavy factory loads..
My next project, strip this gun down and sell off the parts and destroy the receiver.

It sports a nice new/old 1943 RI 2 groove barrel and original rear site, butt plate, trigger assembly parts and the stock could make good fire wood. I had the barrel put on before I did the research..

I'm not sure if the bolt is OK or not? Maybe some of the parts are good?

[Larry Gibson]

The gun smith tested the hardness and head spacing, all seamed fine but recommended using the Receiver for a boat anchor.

Seems he contradicted himself.........have heard the exact same thing said (boat anchor) about Arisakas, MNs and even of M700s and Ruger M77s from died in the wool M70 fans........

If the hardness and headspacing seemed fine then why destroy it? Granted the fit and finish of the NA receiver isn't as nice as SA M1903s but that doesn't mean it's unsafe, especially for cast loads(?). Come to think of it many think LSN M1903 are only good for boat anchors also.......

Not suggesting or recommending anything, just asking is all. Feel free to disregard my questions and do with as you please.

[Hamish]

I have a Nation Ordnance 1903A3- sportorized, paid $100 for it..I had it tested by a very qualified gun smith. The gun smith tested the hardness and head spacing, all seamed fine but recommended using the Receiver for a boat anchor.

He also said a steady diet of cast bullet loads are fine, but would not recommend extended use of heavy factory loads..
My next project, strip this gun down and sell off the parts and destroy the receiver.

It sports a nice new/old 1943 RI 2 groove barrel and original rear site, butt plate, trigger assembly parts and the stock could make good fire wood. I had the barrel put on before I did the research..

I'm not sure if the bolt is OK or not? Maybe some of the parts are good?

The myth of the dangerous National Ordinance receivers is total cow manure. There are a bunch of long time, respected CB members who have been regularly shooting NO receivers for decades, using everything from low pressure cast loads to full house jacketed.

Go looking for information long enough and any failure you find is directly attributable to reloading failure. (double powder, etc.). I have never found an instance of an actual NO owner with a failure due to shoddy casting.

ANY used firearm should be checked over, especially for headspace. You just can convince me that starting with a rifle that checks out and shooting mid range cast loads could ever stretch or break the NO or any other reputable firearm.

[akajun]

The issue with investment cast NA recievers is not BS, its a legit concern. I have one sporterized that I hunted with for years. When I learned of the issues with them I contacted a friend of mine that does NDT and asked what he thought. He told me to bring it to him with the barrel removed. He magnafluxed it and ultrasonic tested it. He said there was a few "suspicious spots" in the back of the receiver but the threaded area and area behind the locking lugs was fine. If you are worried about yours then pay to have it checked out.
As far as someone stamping a 1 on a low number receiver to make a high number, I seriously doubt that is possible. Those 03 receivers are pretty damn hard, I think if you were to try you would crack or otherwise distort the receiver badly, not to mention having to match the numbering font exactly.

[randyrat]

Well, for the money I have in this gun, it is no sweat to destroy the receiver...The gunsmith did say it was a bit soft, but was fine for cast bullets..I just don't know and value mine or someone else's Face and hands to be worth more than $100. The "Do not know for sure" factor bothers me. What happens in the future after I am long gone and someone feeds it a steady diet of high pressure rounds? That is what bothers me

[Rany A]

The only part that Nat'l Ord usually made was the stripped action, the rest of the parts were all surplus GI. I've been around a few of these and most were well done, decent looking rifles. The problem was how some of the actions handled failure or excessive pressure, so yes I'm sure many people have ones that have worked fine for decades but someday that, one too many times reloaded case fails, or an overcharge and bad things could happen. A gunsmith in Denver who many of you probably know (he's registered on here) has collected failed NO actions and interviewed the owners regarding the failures, he refuses to do any work on these actions.
On another note, don't ignore them completely when on a gun show table or yard sale. Usually sellers have found they're not worth as much but it's the other parts that are usually worth the asking price. Last one I ran across had a pristine 6 groove Smith Corona barrel on it, the owner was clueless.
Low pressure/ cast bullet shooters and .22 conversions are good uses for them though.

[Dutchman]

Photo is from 1968. Springfield Model 1903 s/n 394506 barrel date December, 1909. This rifle came to me for $35 which was about par for the course at the time. I was informed about the issue of low number 03 and was told to handload using slow powders like IMR4831 which I loaded maximum compressed loads using Sierra MatchKing 200 gr.

This rifle was un-rebuilt in beautiful condition. There was a very slight warpage in the receiver. The bolt would rub the left side-wall of the receiver. Cause was from quenching.

I've read Hatcher's Notebook a dozen times (at least!). There is no better authority on the issue of 1903 Springfields than Hatcher. Brophy's book on the 1903 doesn't even go into the issue of low number 1903!

It is a fallacy to believe all the bad 1903 have surfaced therefore those that are available today are "ok". Not true. That statement shows the issue isn't understood. If it was me, today, I'd make a low number 03 a cast bullet shooter and be happy with it in that capacity. Even so treated you can have problems with double loads of fast pistol powders (as with all firearms). There are enough high number rifles to make it a non-issue.

https://images53.fotki.com/v108/photos/4/28344/10779318/cotton1-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/1903-springfield/cotton1.html)

My only 1903 Springfield is this high number, double heat-treat with barrel dated 1918. It came from CMP as one of the Greek Lend-Lease rifles. Original C-stock makes it a 1903A1 (big deal!). Excellent original barrel.

https://images45.fotki.com/v153/photos/4/28344/10779318/c1-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/1903-springfield/c1.html)

Another Greek Lend-Lease. Remington 1903(modified) with scant stock, from CMP. Very interesting example in the 1903 lineage.

https://images51.fotki.com/v278/photos/4/28344/10779318/s1-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/1903-springfield/s1.html)

I have a long history with 1903 Springfields and I truly love them for their Americana. But I prefer the 98 Mauser ;-)

https://images14.fotki.com/v384/photos/4/28344/10779318/1903Springfield1911-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/1903-springfield/1903springfield1911.html)

[Larry Gibson]

Apparently Hatcher changed his mind after writing/publishing "Hatcher's Notebook"........

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[WILCO]

Thanks Larry.

I liked reading that.

[Eddie1971]

Larry you got the goods on this topic! I think that he was right about this because there were no issues with these low numbers in WW2.