What's an Acceptable ES?

[Bimmer]

Like the question says...

Back story: I'm used to loading .40S&W for my Glocks, and I'm used to seeing ESs in the 30-60fps range, and SDs in the teens or twenties, if not single-digits (with both factory and reloads).

So, to me, an ES over 100 or an SD over 30 looks like something ain't right.


You may have seen my ongoing thread about Trail Boss in .38Spl... I'm seeing ESs 100-150fps, and SDs in the 30-60fps range, which I figured was a problem.
(NB: This isn't just my problematic reloads, but also Speer's 125gr +P Gold Dot.)


Then, last night, I was reading the September issue of Shooting Illustrated (best gun mag out there, IMO), and looked closely at the velocities from the revolvers they tested...

The review of the S&W 610 in 10mm (I want one, badly) looks good/normal to me: Of fifteen loads tested, the highest SD is 22, and only three loads had ESs in the low 40s (everything else was under 40).


The review of the King Cobra: Of nine loads, the middle (#5) has an ES of 48, and the two highest were 63 and 71. No SDs were listed... That seems OK, too, if not as good.


Then, the (glowing!) review of the 4" Ruger SP101 in .327 Fed Magnum blew my mind: Of a dozen factory loads tested, four had SDs in the 50s. Six had ESs over 160... Two over 200!

(I now feel a bit better about my own inconsistent handloads!)

There's no mention at all in the article about this inconsistency, which makes me wonder if this is "normal" or acceptable for long skinny revolver cases like .327 or .357 (or .38Spl).


So, what's an acceptable threshhold or tolerance?

[mattw]

I shoot for ES under 100 and SD under 20 in plinking ammo, usually check 10 rounds at a time loaded with the same process the rest will get. For bench ammo I try for ES around 15-20 and SD as low as I can get. But that ammo is loaded in a much different method. Also, I think some powders just will not perform that tightly in some pistols.

[35remington]

ES is often very high for long skinny revolver rounds with partially filled cases and the 327 is a particular offender in that regard. A better design would have been the 32 H and R case loaded to higher pressure but this cannot be done for obvious reasons.

I have often thought that one cannot know true potential ES and SD unless one shifts the powder to the front and back of the case to truly model possible extremes in powder loacation, which more accurately models potential variation.

A 9mm case with a 147 grain bullet is hard to beat in that regard....tiny case small area for powder to be confined to, high pressure. Low ES and SD’s result. Reverse those conditions and partially fill the case with powder and the numbers get worse.

[Larry Gibson]

ES and the attendant SD in revolvers is many times larger than using the same cartridge and load in a solid breach rifle or handgun. The variables creating the larger ES/SDs in the revolver are the bullet mass, the longer throats (many times larger than the bullet), the barrel/cylinder gap and most often a much lower load density. The longer throats and a larger barrel/cylinder gap also alter the time/pressure curve and specifically the rate of climb to efficient burn. Slower burning powders and/or less than optimum pressures for efficient burn (such as with your Trail Boss loads in your 38 SPL with the very light bullets you're using) also increase the ES/SD. Additionally, most revolver cartridges vs semi-auto cartridges have much lower load densities with low end loads and that alone most often contributes greatly, even with easily ignitable fast burning powders, to larger ES/SDs.

Honestly all the ES/SDs you mention are not really "out of line", especially the ones for your short barreled revolver.

[megasupermagnum]

Like the question says...

Back story: I'm used to loading .40S&W for my Glocks, and I'm used to seeing ESs in the 30-60fps range, and SDs in the teens or twenties, if not single-digits (with both factory and reloads).

So, to me, an ES over 100 or an SD over 30 looks like something ain't right.


You may have seen my ongoing thread about Trail Boss in .38Spl... I'm seeing ESs 100-150fps, and SDs in the 30-60fps range, which I figured was a problem.
(NB: This isn't just my problematic reloads, but also Speer's 125gr +P Gold Dot.)


Then, last night, I was reading the September issue of Shooting Illustrated (best gun mag out there, IMO), and looked closely at the velocities from the revolvers they tested...

The review of the S&W 610 in 10mm (I want one, badly) looks good/normal to me: Of fifteen loads tested, the highest SD is 22, and only three loads had ESs in the low 40s (everything else was under 40).


The review of the King Cobra: Of nine loads, the middle (#5) has an ES of 48, and the two highest were 63 and 71. No SDs were listed... That seems OK, too, if not as good.


Then, the (glowing!) review of the 4" Ruger SP101 in .327 Fed Magnum blew my mind: Of a dozen factory loads tested, four had SDs in the 50s. Six had ESs over 160... Two over 200!

(I now feel a bit better about my own inconsistent handloads!)

There's no mention at all in the article about this inconsistency, which makes me wonder if this is "normal" or acceptable for long skinny revolver cases like .327 or .357 (or .38Spl).


So, what's an acceptable threshhold or tolerance?

Now 327 federal is something I can help with. First my own opinions of ES are always changing. I do not worry about SD, although I often mention it, as my chrony calculates it for me. I am ok with wider ES than many rifle shooters are. 60-70 fps is ok. Like you, I do not like to see 100 fps+, and that usually indicates problems.

Now onto 327 federal. The best shooting factory load I have found is the Federal AE 100 grain (the 85 grain version sucks). This load is capable of 4" groups at 50 yards in my 5" GP100, and runs about 1650 fps. Now the scary thing is the extreme spreads, they are up around 160 fps. I disagree with 35remington in that a partially filled case is to blame. In the case of the Federal AE factory load, the powder is compressed, you can shake them and do not hear any powder moving.

Now I have done quite a bit of chrony work with the 327 federal. I've said it over and over, but the biggest culprit most of the time is a too light bullet, and guys looking for lazer fast velocity. The combo of slow powder, light bullet, lesser neck tension as a result, and other variables do not make good ammo. I went out of my way to cause problems with air space in 327 federal. Like I said, i went as low as 1 grain of powder, and the extreme spreads were very low. That same 100 grain bullet with strong loads of AA#9 has ES in the 90's. Change primers, and it can come down to the 40's.

While air space will always result in some position sensitivity, it is not a cause of erratic ignition in the case of fast powders. I have not worked with trail boss, but most fast powders work great with poof loads.

[popper]

I don't worry about the statistics, let the target show the results. ES is highest and lowest fps, SD is the distribution of the fps. They really only relate to LOADING procedures, i.e. how identical are your loads? I can't shoot long range pistol accurately anyway, never chronyd a pistol load either. Rifle is different. SD 20 is reasonable.

[jaysouth]

Now 327 federal is something I can help with. First my own opinions of ES are always changing. I do not worry about SD, although I often mention it, as my chrony calculates it for me. I am ok with wider ES than many rifle shooters are. 60-70 fps is ok. Like you, I do not like to see 100 fps+, and that usually indicates problems.

Now onto 327 federal. The best shooting factory load I have found is the Federal AE 100 grain (the 85 grain version sucks). This load is capable of 4" groups at 50 yards in my 5" GP100, and runs about 1650 fps. Now the scary thing is the extreme spreads, they are up around 160 fps. I disagree with 35remington in that a partially filled case is to blame. In the case of the Federal AE factory load, the powder is compressed, you can shake them and do not hear any powder moving.

Now I have done quite a bit of chrony work with the 327 federal. I've said it over and over, but the biggest culprit most of the time is a too light bullet, and guys looking for lazer fast velocity. The combo of slow powder, light bullet, lesser neck tension as a result, and other variables do not make good ammo. I went out of my way to cause problems with air space in 327 federal. Like I said, i went as low as 1 grain of powder, and the extreme spreads were very low. That same 100 grain bullet with strong loads of AA#9 has ES in the 90's. Change primers, and it can come down to the 40's.

While air space will always result in some position sensitivity, it is not a cause of erratic ignition in the case of fast powders. I have not worked with trail boss, but most fast powders work great with poof loads.

given the infinite number of variables in producing an accurate load. let your target do the talking. Dead center with a .30-30 beats a near miss with a .458 mag.

[35remington]

Now, I never said that ES couldn’t be high with a case full of powder, and I have no doubt the light 327 bullet is playing a role in high extreme spreads in velocity when slow powders are used.

But if you want to see extreme spreads get even worse than you are mentioning, especially in relation to the velocity obtained, try a partial case full of powder, low pressure, and let it shift in position from front to back. The “do it all” appeal of the 327 may tempt some to load the cartridge as I have mentioned in an attempt to make a 32 Long out of it and this does not turn out particularly well.

This applies to a number of the long revolver cartridges...38 Special, 357 loaded light, 45 Colt, etc.

When poor choices of powder are made, such as Universal in the comparatively short 32 Long, velocity variations can reach 140 fps or more with powder shifted front to back, and this with loads that are getting only 750 fps in the first place. As a percentage of variation that is pretty high for something that approximates standard pressures for the cartridge. When the 327 is loaded to similar velocity levels and tested the same way the numbers are even worse, exactly as expected.

Point I was going after in the general and specific sense when applied to any cartridge is that having a lot of airspace does not help.

To some limited degree better powder selection helps, but there are limits to that as well. For example, Titegroup lets extreme spreads run as low as around 50 fps when tested as I have described using standard seating depths with 158s in the 38 and upper standard to Plus P pressures, but lighten the bullet weight substantially and ES climbs with supposedly “insensitive” Titegroup as well.

Know those factors that tend to lower ES and apply them. That is all you can do.

[megasupermagnum]

I consider position sensitivity and extreme spread to be two different issues, although one can effect the other.

A 327 federal most certainly can work great loaded to 32 long levels. It's not hard to do at all. 45 colt is supposed to be light loaded, so I'm not sure what you are saying there. 357 magnum works fine with a 000 buckshot (70 grain), and 38 special is a pipsqueak as it is.

I know what you are trying to say though, although my testing has shown no problems as a whole. 45 acp as an example is no better than 45 colt loaded to the same levels, at least in my guns. Just look at the rifle shooters. 10 grains of Unique in most rifle cases is a common load. That's something like a 15% case fill, and shoots fantastic.

[35remington]

I do recall sometime back Mike Venturino mentioned shooting 32-20 factory loads. With the powder at the back the expected sharp crack and close to expected velocity was obtained.

Letting the powder shift by the bullet before firing resulted in them sticking in the barrel. He mentioned that in Handloader magazine a few years back, as I recall.

[Hossfly]

I’m loading 38 spl 158 gr cast and pc’d boolit at 3 gr BE, at about 820 fps. Watching the lawn steel group down in Florida shoot, they tilt pistol up and shake to get powder back by primer and are very pinpoint accurate out to 70 yards shooting steel silhouettes. Haven’t been looking at SD or ES
Will next time I go to shoot which is about 3 times a week.

[35remington]

One only knows if position sensitivity is occurring if one induces it, and since it is possible to shift powder forward when drawing the gun from low ready or a holster, if one does not specifically test for it one cannot quantify the effect.

I consider position sensitivity as the major player in extreme spread that it is and specifically model it. In long cases position sensitivity, lower pressures and ES are directly related.

When using 32 Long equivalent loads in the 327 case I specifically shift the powder rearwards due to my previous findings if I have any reason to suspect it has bunched up near the bullet.

[35remington]

45 ACP is very substantially better than standard pressure or even somewhat higher pressure 45 Colt in terms of reduced ES in my very specific testing for same. The why is obvious....the smaller ACP case has less room for the powder to slop around. It is also running at higher pressure in most instances when speaking of SAAMI specs.

What is remarkable (not saying that is the case with those here) is the number of individuals that overlook position sensitivity as a factor in long cases and high ES especially at low pressures.

Can’t count the number of times I have read or had someone assure me in person, for instance, that Unique is “position insensitive.” On a few occasions I’ve placed that under a 158 in a 38 Special case and ran it over the chronograph with witnesses. Opinions suddenly changed.

That is a big player in high ES, to reiterate my point. Run it in 9mm and it does wonderfully, but then so does nearly everything else.

[35remington]

So to further belabor the point, I am purposefully trying to find the maximum possible ES that can occur with a given loading, mostly for the purpose of seeing if it is possible to reduce it.

And there is more than on way to reduce it. Switch bullets, switch powders, shift the powder before shooting. Or simply recognize the conditions where variation matters and where it does not, and don’t care when it does not matter.

Following up on Larry’s commentary, one could pursue a tighter fit of bullet diameter to cylinder throat diameter to reduce ES in revolvers. Substitute Bullseye for Unique.

For seven yard defensive shooting practice it probably doesn’t matter so much.

[Bimmer]

Thanks, guys... This is helpful.

The consensus seems to be that I shouldn't be too worried about the "stats." I'm OCD enough to want low numbers just for their sake, and I sometimes plink at 25yds, so more consistency would be better...

Also, some of the light loads I'm trying vary so much in velocity that one round is double the energy of the next, which is disconcerting: It feels like a squib load (but it's not).

[megasupermagnum]

25 yards you will never, ever notice a difference. The only reason I check at all is because I like to have a day or two a year of long range handgun shooting, starting at 100 yards, moving out to 5-600. Usually in the spring and fall when the farm fields are empty and dry.

[35remington]

If you want low extreme spreads load 3.5 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup under a 148 cast wadcutter. This is as good as it gets in the 38 Special, which is quite good indeed.

Still standard pressure. About 870-880 fps from a four inch revolver

[country gent]

A lot can affect extreme spreads in firearms. Case thickness, case hardness, crimp, primers, flash holes size center and form ( sharp edges burrs). powder type and how it fills the case. And then there's the firearm, barrel length ( I normally see higher es from short barrels) hammers striking the primers force, and on revolvers barrel cylinder gap. Sorting brass by maker and lot number helps, looking for the best primer also can lower es, crimp, seating tension.

Finding the appropriate powder for pressure level barrel length also helps. This is in relationship to the primers also.

Ive been shooting BPCR with Black powder and heavy for caliber bullets in the 1150-1200fps range. With flash holes deburred and a slight bevel, T flash holes uniformed, and the right compression on the powder I can get ESs in the 10-13 fps range or SDs of 3-4. These rifles have longer barrels of 30-34" also. I anneal every other firing and don't crimp. Light neck tension ( hand seated bullets).

[Bimmer]

25 yards you will never, ever notice a difference.

I just ran the ballistics...

GunData won't allow a muzzle velocity of less than 500, so I compared 500 and 700fps, with 75gr wadcutters (nevermind that it says 148gr, I just selected that to get a comparable BC).

This says 1-1/4" verticle difference, plus 1/4" difference in wind drift, at 25yds.

247194

[megasupermagnum]

I should have qualified, I meant the 60-100 fps spreads we were talking about. I lost count how many fantastic shooting loads have ES around 70, and how many poor ones have ES in the teens. 200 fps ES is bad, something is wrong there, and you will notice just by recoil something aint right.

Now, you posted a ballistics table of drop, not trajectory. Since you are sighted at a distance beyond 0, the effect will be less on target. I do believe you should increase your trail boss load to 4 grains, which is ultimately what all these threads are about. Velocity spreads is one thing, but it's another to be flirting with a stuck bullet.

[David2011]

If you want low extreme spreads load 3.5 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup under a 148 cast wadcutter. This is as good as it gets in the 38 Special, which is quite good indeed.

Still standard pressure. About 870-880 fps from a four inch revolver

Agreed. I tried SR475 instead of my usual Titegroup prior to an Area 2 USPSA match because it was supposed to make less smoke. The ES and SD had huge spreads. I chronographed the loads with a comfortable margin for USPSA Major Power when working up the loads, around a 170 power factor. At the chrono station at the match my first set of rounds failed to meet major and the second set they measured made major at 165.1 with a threshold of 165.0. I went back to Titegroup after that match and get solid, tight ES and SD measurements. That was with an autoloader, though.

I have no data on Bullseye because I only use it for light fun loads in .38 Special. The boolits make it all the way to the target and leave a hole so that's all I expect.

[Bimmer]

Now, you posted a ballistics table of drop, not trajectory. Since you are sighted at a distance beyond 0, the effect will be less on target.

Look more closely... It's a 10yd zero, so the 500fps load drops 1.4" more than the 700fps load in the 15yds between 10yds and 25yds.

By 50yds, the difference is 7+ inches!



I do believe you should increase your trail boss load to 4 grains...

Done... actually I'm making up a batch with 4.5gr of Trail Boss. I won't get to shoot them 'til next week, though.

[Forrest r]

In reality it will be more than 1.4", you can easily double that number due to the difference in the recoil/dwell time of the bullets. The shorter the bbl or lighter the firearm, the bigger the difference.

Most semi-auto's have sledge hammer fp hits, revolvers not so much. Between the poor man's trigger jobs, spring changes, tweaking, etc. Most revolvers have erratic ignition/poor ignition due to inconsistent fp hits right out of the box when new/strait from the factory. Add to the mix all the tweaking/fixing/lighter springs & more often then not the fp hits become more erratic.

Most reloaders don't test their firearms for function before they start testing loads. Myself I use a contender to test firearms chambered in 22lr/9mm/38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp. Center fire revolvers are either for target work or general use. Target revolvers get tested with federal primers & the general use revolvers get tested with several different primers. Testing the 38spl's consists of using a known load that has es's in the 20's when being shout out of the contender and testing the same loads in a revolver. You start seeing es's in the high 30's or above out of the revolver being tested, that's telling you the revolver has mechanical issues.

Don't think so? Do a simple test with a s&w revolver. Take the anvil out of a lp/lr primer and put the primer cup under the strain screw and tighten the strain screw all the way down. Run 20/30 shots of a quality/low es ammo over a chronograph. Then pull the primer out from under the strain screw and adjust the strain screw 2 full turns back and re-test. You'll find you have a lot smoother/lighter trigger at the expense of erratic ignition/high es's.

It's harder to see the results of consistent ignition with revolvers accuracy wise. A chronograph will pick up on it & at the end of the day consistency equals accuracy.

Years ago (1993/1994?) I bought a cz lux 22lr rifle. I tested it with low grade match ammo @ 25yds. It could do .25" 5-shot groups @ 25yds, but that's all it could do. That was more then acceptable to me seeing how the lux is in reality nothing more than a sporting rifle. A decade + later the cz line of rimfire rifles gained in popularity so I decided to pull the lux out and take a hard look at what it could do. I used a known lot of ammo that does high teen's in several different rimfire firearms. That lux failed badly having es's in the 40's with the test ammo. After doing a bunch of bolt work on the lux and 3 or 4 trips to the range for testing the end result was the lux had es's in the teen with the test ammo & the groups shrank +/-40%. Typical targets after the cz was worked on.
https://i.imgur.com/8p6hLgR.jpg

When I know the revolver is right and tight I'll start testing loads. If I get es's in the 60+fps range for general range fodder/blammo ammo, I know I'm using the wrong bullet/powder/load combo.

I like to see the es's below 30fps in my target revolver and below 60fps for general use.

When I develop a load that has es's in the 20's/60's and I get a high es reading from a shot. It's telling me I did something wrong, could be under an sized bullet, bad bullet base, seated the bullet crooked, junk in flash hole, something.

Not trying to offend anyone but I see it all the time on this website. People stating you can't be getting es's like that with x/y/z powder because I can't. Or you can't be getting those velocities with that load. All's that's telling me there's something going on with there firearm, components, reloading skills.

Anyway if you're revolver isn't getting a good solid fp hit. It doesn't matter what you do.

[Forrest r]

Choosing a bullet to use is 1 thing, choosing the oal of that bullet is a lot more important. Same bullet with different oals.
https://i.imgur.com/cXoGpNh.jpg

The top reload has a shorter oal. The bullet is not seated so that it sits in the leade of the cylinder. Anything under pressure will go to the least point of resistance. When you hit the loud button that bullet will more often than not go sideways 1st. The short oal will also cause the brass to use more pressure to seal the cylinders. This is where the variations in brass, neck tension, crimp get magnified causing higher es's. People see this all the time and really don't give it much thought. Do a search looking for "soot on brass" and you'll see a lot of people asking why they have soot on 1 side of their brass.

The reload with the longer oal has the bullet out into the leade of the cylinder. Doing this causes the bullet to have resistance quicker which it turn raises the short start pressure sealing the cylinders faster using less pressure along with causing a better powder burn/more complete powder burn. The end result is lower es's for the same load.

With the 38spl target loads use a long bodied bullet that takes up large amounts of case volume to let lower es's. With standard bullets a reloader can lower es's by seating the bullet out into the leade.

The mihec 640's (158gr) are sized to .358" and crimped in the bottom crimp groove/longer oal. The h&g #50's (150gr) are sized to 357" and loaded llloooooonnnnggg. I'm sure they look funny/odd
https://i.imgur.com/Daxlniz.jpg

Same h&g #50's sized to .358", note that the h&g #50's sized to .358" are seated/crimped in the top lube grove. While the h&g #50's that are sized to .357" are seated/crimped in the middle lube groove.
https://i.imgur.com/h3YS3YJ.jpg?1

While the accuracy of those loads is nothing to write home about, the es's are in the 40's. Typical 6-shot groups @ 50ft.
https://i.imgur.com/AL4WBux.jpg

Same revolver shooting those 110gr wc's sized to .357" on the left seated in the crimp groove loaded in 357 brass.
https://i.imgur.com/N3kBAVn.jpg

Didn't matter what I did powder wise, high es's and poor accuracy.
https://i.imgur.com/7yITG2Q.jpg

Took a hard look at the 357 cases and threw 90%+ of a 5 gallon bullet of them out. Split ends, shot so much the nickel was starting to wear off of them, etc. Bought 2000 new pieces of starling 357 brass and re-tested. Low es's and back to shooting bugholes.

Give your reloads a chance by making sure you're using quality brass. Then make the oals so that you get the most out of that brass.

[Forrest r]

A couple years back I did a little testing with a snubnosed 38spl. Don't like them, never wanted 1. But the misses wanted 1 so I ended up picking up a ca undercover. Took 6 or 7 trips to the range with that undercover comparing it to the contender and working on it to get it to have consistent ignition. After that I started testing bullets/loads to get an idea of what that ca undercover could do.

Thought it might be interesting to start with a simple test of 3 or 4 different powders and a bunch of different bullets just to get an idea of what kind of velocities to expect from the 2" bbl. At the end of the day I ended up using 5 different powders (bullseye/BE-86/unique/2400/power pistol) and 10 different bullets. I only loaded 5 test rounds of each but the big picture was that I tested 250 rounds. Figured that would give me a general idea of what to expect from that revolver giving me a baseline to work with. But it also showed me which bullet design was good/bad along with having a 250 round test bed for es's.

The bullets used for the test were:
h&g #51 hp
cramer hunter hp
cramer #26 hp
lyman 358439 hp
lyman 358165 hp
mihec 640 hp
cast 148gr hbwc turned backwards
home swaged 150gr jacketed hp made from 380acp cases
lyman 358431 hb swc that was hp'd with a forster hp tool
raphine hb fn that was hp'd with a forster hp tool

Bullseye 10 bullets/5 shots each 50 shots total. The highest es was 59fps with the h&g # 51. The lowest es was 27fps with the hbwc turned backward. The hunter/358156/cramer 26 had es's in the low 30fps.

Be-86 10 bullets/5 shots each 50 shots total. None of the 50 shots had a es higher than 45fps with the cramer hunter bullet having the lowest es, 22fps.

Unique ( I love unique) did what unique normally does having the highest es's of the 5 powders. The highest es was 84fps with the h&g #51. The lowest es was with the 358439, 40fps.

2400 isn't the best choice for a 38spl load but it will point out bullet designs that designed to seal fast creating excellent short start pressures/better more complete powder burn. The highest es was with the H&g #51, 93fps. The lowest es was 39fps with the mihec 640.

Power pistol is a high energy powder like titegroup. It smacks the bullet rather than pushing it compared to powders like ww231. PP just like 2400 will bring out flaws in bullet designs along with flaws in the bullets themselves.
H&G #51 es 45fps
cramer hunter es 38fps
cramer #26 es 30fps
358439 es 48fps
358156 es 31fps
mihec 640 es 32fps
mihec hbwc es 14fps
jacketed/swaged hp es 31fps
358431 es 40fps
raphine es 13fps

Of those 10 different bullets tested 4 of them consistently had the highest velocities and low es's.

That ca undercover is mechanically sound, the weak link is my bullets & me the shooter. I had that undercover in the down position, loaded it, brought it up and shot the 5-shot strings. I was using 2 hands standing with the chronograph 10" from the muzzle. Testing loads this way isn't the best thing to do. The shots will be at different angles making larger variations in the velocities because the bullet is not going over the sky screens the same distance shot after shot.

Anyway, why all this???
Because it isn't hard to make reloads with low es's and sd's. I can't even count the # of times I've seen threads on the different websites with people asking about a powder because they have a bunch of it. Then they try to pair it with a bullet that would be 1 of the last choices for the combo. The end result is that they end up with 1000's of rounds of blammo ammo for countless hours of quality range time.

Don't know what was going on with that h&g #51 bullet, never did get any real consistency out of it and ended up selling the mold. If I were to take the other 9 bullets and 5 powders (225 total shots) the highest es would be the unique mihec 640 load with an es of 62fps.

That's what you should be looking at with your snubnosed 38spl 9 different bullets, 5 different powders, 225 shots with an es of 62fps.