Anyone use 45 Colt against large game?

[Bazoo]

Has anyone here ever taken elk, moose, or bear with 45 colt? Did you use the standard loading or the Ruger only loads?

You mostly hear about 44 mag or larger for these larger game animals but I'm curious as to the 45 colts usage.

[Arkansas Paul]

I have not taken any big game with a .45 Colt, but if you're interested in the topic, I highly recommend this book.
It's written by Max Prasac, who is a huge fan of the .45 Colt and loads it to levels that the old Colts of the past wouldn't even recognize.
He has taken some really big game with it.

https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Book-Hunting-Revolvers/dp/1440246076/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=max+prasac&qid=1566017811&s=gateway&sr=8-1

[Gunnut 45/454]

My daughter took a nice 4x4 muley with my cast load of a Lee 300 gr GC WFN in a Win 94 . Shot was about 110 yard ! One shot done!

[Finn45Colt]

www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com

[Walks]

I seem to remember an article by John Barsness from Handloader Magazine. It was a few years back and the only details I remember was a Ruger Bisley 7 1/2" and it was Southeast Montana. I think he took a big Muley Buck.

[winelover]

Wife took couple of deer with her 7 1/2" BH using Ruger only loads. Not a whole lot of difference between those loads and 44 Magnum ones. Seventeen grains of 2400 in 45LC (250 SWC) would be pretty comparable to seventeen grains of 2400 with a 240 SWC in 44 Magnum. IMO

Winelover

[DougGuy]

Bazoo, considering the 45 Colt was originally contracted by the Cavalry to shoot through a horse and kill the enemy on the other side, this being it's black powder loading, I would say that even in the most anemic factory loading that it would take any thin skinned game up to the size of a horse. This would include Moose and Elk.

From there it depends on which gun you are using as the energy levels rise with increased pressure so in a medium framed new model Ruger you would be good to 23,000psi which would launch the 255gr boolit right at 1200 fps, this would reliably take Grizzly or a large Brown bear (with proper shot placement) and in the large framed Ruger and other stoutly built revolvers you would be good to 30,000psi which would allow heavy boolits up to 340gr to be launched at 1200 fps, now you are talking ALL game on the North American continent, and some of the more dangerous critters on the African continent as well.

We haven't even gotten to rifles or carbines chambered in 45 Colt.

[Tatume]

Brian Pearce of Handloader Magazine wrote of taking an elk with a Smith and Wesson revolver in 45 Colt. The 250 grain cast bullet at 900 fps MV exited the far side. Range was about 50 yards, as I recall.

[richhodg66]

Never killed anything with one, but I love .45 Colt and can't imagine that a 250ish grain SWC moving close to 900 FPS wouldn't get it done on deer just fine under the conditions I hunt if my shooting were up to it. I'm not as good with a handgun as I should be, so there's that, but I'm working on it.

[Gray Fox]

I believe it was John Linebaugh who wrote in an article that the .45 Colt can do whatever the .44 magnum can, but with a lot less chamber pressure. It's a real performer in my carbines and rifles. GF

[waksupi]

Elmer Keith used it quite a bit.

[Smoke4320]

Well there I was sitting in the deer stand when all of a sudden a fawn came busting out of the woods in a death run followed closely by a mega bobcat. Looked like he was bigger than a Yugo (at least to the fawn anyway) At 100 yds he filled my scope eyepiece. Feeling for the fawn energized me to give it a go so when the bobcat reached 85 yds I launched a 245 grain get off fawn message.. message was delivered to great effect. fawn lived another day. That's my story and I have pics to prove it

Yes there are quite a few stories of large game being taken by 45 colts at reasonable distances. I would have no worries shooting an elk or moose that 100yds with a 45 colt and a heavy weight projectile

[Norske]

A former writer for Wolf Publishing (Rifle and Handloader magazines) from South Africa used a heavy-loaded 45 Colt to finish off Cape Buffalo, usually with brain shots. The penetration can be almost unbelievable.

[Outpost75]

Keith in Sixgun Cartridges and Loads and also in his later book Sixguns, describes his experience with the .45 Colt. Factory loads with the pointed conical bullet were great penetrators, but had less killing power than heavy, flatnosed bullets having a large meplat of 0.6 to 0.7 of bullet diameter.

I've killed whitetails successfully with #454424 and 8 grains of Unique and never recovered a bullet. Penetration was always through and through from any angle. Also shot boar and feral razorbacks with the same load and never felt under-gunned.

Higher velocity flattens trajectory and makes longer range hits beyond 50 yards easier, but 900 fps with a 260-grain FN bullet gives you all the penetration one could desire. The Keith-type bullet or modern LBT WFNs provide straight through penetration with excellent crush characteristics. Keith never felt that more velocity than 1000 fps was ever needed. He favored additional bullet weight over higher velocity.

In a strong handgun like the Ruger, today's 270-300-grain bullets launched at 850-1000 fps would be stone killers.

[Lonegun1894]

I’ve used mine on mostly deer and hogs, but the biggest thing I’ve killed was a friends bull that had developed a bad attitude and would attack anything that got in its pasture, and kept getting out and terrorizing the neighbors. Anyway, I used my 7.5” Ruger BH firing a RCBS 270SAA and 20.0grs of 2400 (check your manual before you copy this load, cause I’ve backed off away from it too being older and hopefully a bit smarter now). From about 50yards, put the bullet in the forehead, and the bull just dropped. We butchered it for the meat, and found the bullet resting against the left hip. I couldn’t tell you how heavy that bull was, and it’s definitely not a game animal, but it’s the only animal I’ve ever shot with this load that allowed me to recover the bullet. I’ve since backed away from this load, and have been using 10.0grs Unique instead. Still shooting clean through deer and hogs. I don’t know how much I would have to drop this load to start recovering bullets, but this shoots so well that I’m just planning on sticking with it.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for all the replies. I've not read them all yet but will soon as I have some quiet time to think on it. When I say Ruger only loads I do not mean the linebaugh loads that are at a completely different level. I don't have a Ruger in 45 colt, but I'm considering one. I like the power level of starting / lower mid 44 mag loads.

[Wheelguns 1961]

There is an excellent article by Brian Pearce on the .45c and the rcbs 270 saa. He divides the loads into standard pressure tier 1 loads. 23,000 psi tier 2 loads, and 32,000 tier 3 loads. I have it saved on my ipad, but I can’t post links. If you would like a copy, pm me your email and I will send it to you.

[Bazoo]

Wheelguns 1961, I would like to check that out. I sent you a PM.

Thanks.

[osteodoc08]

John Linebaugh’s article
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

Brian Pearce article
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

The 45-270-SAA is my favorite all time general-purpose 45 Colt boolits.

[kaiser]

The.45 Colt is my favorite pistol load. “Cowboy” pressure loads work well at reasonable ranges on large animals, but is seldom chosen or recommended for specialized pistol hunting of dangerous game where high velocity is theorized to make pistol bullets into giant slayers! A .45 Colt pistol has a very manageable recoil compared to the .44Mag, .480, .454, and..500S&W (which I have shot). I can guarantee that I can get off at least two shots for every one you can get off with one of the extra heavy “big boomers”. (A .45 Colt loaded “hot” in a big frame Ruger or Freedom arms will do anything a .44 Mag will do with the same level of recoil punishment.)
A rifle in a .45 Colt will deliver .44 Magnum velocities which extends its range while delivering the same penetration and effectiveness on impact with a cast bullet at the shorter range of a lower velocity pistol load. I’ve shot two deer with a rifle in a .45 Colt with 255gr cast (Lee) bullet with complete penetration through the shoulders. I would not feel under gunned shootings an elk, moose, or bear; however, I do not hunt these animals with a pistol because of their habitat and range. Those that specialize, by hunting large game with a pistol, are looking for a caliber with increased velocity to do the job of a rifle. I choose the rifle every time. The pistol I carry is a”side arm”, either to backup my rifle or protect me until I can get to a rifle. With a .45 Colt I am sufficiently armed IMO. My.02.

[oldblinddog]

I killed a whitetail buck with a S&W 25 and a Winchester factory load. My favorite handload when I had that gun was the RCBS 250 SWC over 9.0 grs. Unique and crimped behind the front driving band. This was reputed to go 900 fps from the 6” barrel.

[sixshot]

I've taken a lot of deer with the Ruger 45 including 2 last year. I've also taken 4 elk over the years, either using the 260 gr Keith or a 325 gr LBT, never recovered a 45 cast bullet yet. Very accurate if the throats are correct.

Dick

[cwlongshot]

With a strong modern gun, the 45 Colt can do anything a similarly loaded 44 Mag can, and does it at lower pressure than the 43 Mag.

I have only used mine on Hogs, Deer and one Bear. Haven't recovered a bullet yet. Shooting them in 16”, 10”, 5.5” and 7.5” Barrels.

CW

[Outpost75]

In the Ruger revolvers and others having longer cylinders, which permit seating bullets out to reduce jump and provide maximum powder capacity, the Accurate 45-290H bullet is my bullet of choice for a heavy hunting load. Seven grains of Alliant Bullseye gives sufficient, very uniform working velocity, even from short revolver barrels with clean burning. Ctg. OAL is 1.69".

While pressures slightly exceed SAAMI MAP for the .45 Colt, they do not exceed .45 ACP levels, well within design limits for the compact, Ruger Flat tops, so you are not punishing either yourself or the gun.
Thanks to Larry Gibson for pressure testing my load. Click on the photo to display full size to read the detailed data.

Actual chronograph velocity from my 4-5/8" Ruger Blackhawk revolver, using soft 1:30 tin-lead hunting alloy, producing a 295-grain bullet is 820-830 fps. This is about 120 fps less than Larry's ten-inch Contender test barrel and 150 fps less firing the same load in my H&R Handi-Rifle. It is still quite the thumper, but not punishing to shoot, and comfortably subsonic in a carbine for use with a "can" if that is your pleasure. Actually the rifle report is mild like a Cowboy load and the bullet smacking the 100-yard gong makes more noise than a rifle barrel longer than 20 inches going off.

I call it my Blooper Buck Buster.

246877 246878

Larry's comments:

45 Colt Ruger Level w/45-290H; Very interesting here as we see the longer, heavier 45-290H bullet over 7 gr Bullseye come into its own as velocity increases which perhaps has improved the stability(?). Looking at both the velocity (M35P and the M43) and psi measurements for each shot we see they are very uniform for the 1st 8 shots. Then for whatever reason the bottom fell out on the last 2 shots. Both the velocity and psi for both shots was low. Those two shots also are the low two hits in that otherwise excellent group. While the MAP is listed at 17,400 psi(M43) it includes the 2 low shots. If we look at the first 8 shots the MAP is actually closer to 18,200 psi(M43).

[Hardcast416taylor]

Years ago I got a 7 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk in .45 LC. I really liked shooting the RCBS 255 gr. boolet thru it pushed by 6 1/2 gr. of Red Dot. It equaled about 900 +/- fps which was the old original loading. That Fall I sat in a brush blind near a corn field that deer seemed to like. At 55 paces I dropped a 4 point whitetail in his tracks with that load. It was a thru and thru shot broadside. I was using my 50/50 + tin alloy and was plain based.Robert

[Dinny]

I shot a nice Indiana 10pt buck with a Handi rifle 45 Colt loaded with a CP 360gr LBT WFN bullet moving slightly over 1K fps back in 2008. The bullet passed thru and was last spotted traveling east at about 800fps in 2016.

I subscribe to the writings of John Linebaugh. He and I have discussed 45 Colt rifle loads on a number of occasions. H110/ W296 is all I use for full power loads in strong actions.

Thanks, Dinny

[Bazoo]

I appreciate all the responses. Let's be clear, I am not interested in pushing the limits of the 45 colt into the 44 magnum range, but rather just the +P range.

Also, I have no doubt to the colt's killing power on deer. My query is about it's performance on larger game.

[444ttd]

about the same performance as my 44 special with 255gr keith boolits going roughly 800-850fps. if you can shoot into and out of both lungs (deer/elk/moose...) then your golden.

[DougGuy]

I appreciate all the responses. Let's be clear, I am not interested in pushing the limits of the 45 colt into the 44 magnum range, but rather just the +P range.

Also, I have no doubt to the colt's killing power on deer. My query is about it's performance on larger game.

Bigger than deer are Elk and Moose, both thin skinned game, black bear in the Eastern US avg. 300lb, your +P 45 Colt will be PLENTY enough power for these.

Next up are the larger bears. Any bear big as a moose? Yeah you best have your A game in every chamber, and you best not miss. Ruger Only 30kpsi, 300gr+ boolits cast hard would be bare minimum.

[cwlongshot]

I appreciate all the responses. Let's be clear, I am not interested in pushing the limits of the 45 colt into the 44 magnum range, but rather just the +P range.

Also, I have no doubt to the colt's killing power on deer. My query is about it's performance on larger game.

It has always been and always will be more important WHERE you hit them than WHAT ya hit them with. Now having said that YOU have a max range as does the caliber. Even if your gun shoots 1” @ 1000 but YOU cannot shoot... Well I think you get the picture.

(Providing you have enough to begin with and as previous posts prove the 45 COLT is “enough”.

CW

[sixshot]

DougGuy, you spelled that wrong, should have been Bear minimum!! Some of those North Carolina bears are as big as Volkswagens. We've killed some bears here in Idaho that are as big as some Grizzlies, not all Grizzlies are huge. Bullet placement & bullet quality will get you there. My last bear was an honest 6 1/2" bear at about 65 yds with my 10.5" Blackhawk 44 & a 250 Keith running about 1450 fps. One shot with an exit, over in about 4-5 seconds. Placement!!!!

Dick

[MT Gianni]

I am trying to remember the handle of a member her that was a Wyoming oil field engineer. He used the 45 colt for almost everything, IIRC he went to Africa with a rifle and popularized in my mind the 6.5 gr Red Dot Load. Dan Walker? last on 8/8

[Gray Fox]

I like the 270 SAA (about 285 grn from my mold) with an HS6 load at about 1,100 fps from my 7/5" Blackhawk. There have been a couple 600# plus black bears taken the last couple years here in the north GA mountains with crossbows, and I hope I don't come across one if we're both on the ground unless I have my Marlin Guide Gun loaded with 405 grn FP boolits at 1,450 fps or better. I just read something yesterday that said game and fish folks think there are more black bears in the Eastern mountains now than there were in the 1600s. Have to see what's on the trails this fall, I guess. GF

[Gunnut 45/454]

Well if we are just talking pistols my current carry load in my RH 45LC is my Lee 300gr WFN GC and 15.9 gr 2400.

[osteodoc08]

I like the 270 SAA (about 285 grn from my mold) with an HS6 load at about 1,100 fps from my 7/5" Blackhawk. There have been a couple 600# plus black bears taken the last couple years here in the north GA mountains with crossbows, and I hope I don't come across one if we're both on the ground unless I have my Marlin Guide Gun loaded with 405 grn FP boolits at 1,450 fps or better. I just read something yesterday that said game and fish folks think there are more black bears in the Eastern mountains now than there were in the 1600s. Have to see what's on the trails this fall, I guess. GF


Glad to see another Georgian in here. I’ve got several friends that live in the foothills of the Blue Ridge mtns and the black bears have become quite a nuisance for them. Had one the other day snooping around my friends garage. Probably smelled the dog food. Usually they just open the door and tell him to leave and they’ll just kinda saunter off into the woods.

13.5gr HS6 under a 45-270-SAA has been my go to for years.

[hc18flyer]

I am anxious to try the new Mihec 45-280 rnfp group buy over HS6 and 2400 on Whitetail. hc18flyer

[David2011]

I appreciate all the responses. Let's be clear, I am not interested in pushing the limits of the 45 colt into the 44 magnum range, but rather just the +P range.

Also, I have no doubt to the colt's killing power on deer. My query is about it's performance on larger game.

I've killed lots of feral hogs with my Blackhawk in .45 Colt. I would consider them as tough as most larger game; certainly tougher than even large deer.

The .44 Mag power level isn't pushing the Blackhawk very hard. In the '80s there was a new load almost every month for the Ruger in .45 Colt, considerably stiffer than the current published Ruger/Contender only recipes. OTOH, I think +P would be plenty stout for 200+ lb. hogs with the right boolit/bullet. Most of the hogs I killed with the Blackhawk were ones that other people wounded and they were anywhere from 100-275 pounds; mostly 150-225 lb. At first I was wasting my money on JHPs but started using cast Lyman 452374s and they worked just as well. Yeah, I was shooting that many. I was using 2400 but the reloading books are packed to move so I can't say exactly how much it took. I do recall that an equal amount of 2400 in a .44 Mag and a .45 Colt produces less energy in the .45 Colt. Bigger case, less pressure.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for all the replies.

I know a blackhawk can take higher pressure but it ain't pleasant for my wrists. I am considering switching to 45 colt from my 44 mag, but ain't made no decisions yet. I run some full power loads in 44, but like starting magnum loads better. Seems like the best compromise of power and shootability for an all around load.

[Lloyd Smale]

Only once. A 1000 lb cow bison. 300 rcbs swcgc at about 1100 fps. Shot behind the shoulder at about 40 yards and it stood there swaying for a few seconds and fell over dead. Shot a few deer and pigs and two black bear with 45s too. Did about the same. Ive shot bison with 44 mags, 45 colt, 475s and 500 linebaughs and even 44 specials with keith level loads and the reaction is about identical with any of them with similar shot placement. If your looking to knock them off there feet good luck. But if putting a hole into the vitals that will leak enough blood to kill them resonalbly quick it doesn't much matter which of those you choose. Matter of fact if I was to pick the perfect BIG animal round it would probably be one I never owned. the 480. 45 is a great round but you will never really see any advantage over a 44 mag shooting the same weight bullet at the same speed. your talking .023 bullet size on an animal that stands 5 feet at the shoulders. Good conversation and argument material but in reality nothing.

[Char-Gar]

I never killed any game, but a 5 gallon metal bucket charged me once, and I stopped it with a 45 Colt. I have killed several deer with a 45 ACP pistol and can see no reason why a 45 Colt revolvers would not do just as well or better.

[cwlongshot]

Your question is easily answered if you simply look at 43 magnum stories. The 43mag is more popular so there are more uses to read about. If you do so, knowing that the 45 Colt can do anything the 43 can your question is answered and confirmed.

CW

[Bigslug]

Doug Guy and Outpost pretty much covered it. In Sixguns (1955 and pre .44 Magnum), Keith said that if you aren't handloading, .45 Colt was pretty much the last word.

My eye opener for cast bullet performance with with a water-quenched WW 230 grain LBT LFN at 830 fps hardball speed from a 1911. It took NINE milk jugs full of water to stop that - three times what you usually see with a police hollowpoint. Pretty much sold me on the idea that you don't need to firewall them to have something that will reliably put meat from a very large animal on the table.

My walkin' around, keep mountain lions and black bear from eating me and stealing my deer load for my 4" .45C Redhawk is propelling a similarly-shaped 230 grain flat nose at about 1100 fps - off the scale for the black powder guns, but nowhere near the super-uncomfortable "Ruger Only" listings. I see no sense in pushing harder for what would be a sub-hundred-yard shot.

[sundog]

Doug Guy and Outpost pretty much covered it. In Sixguns (1955 and pre .44 Magnum), Keith said that if you aren't handloading, .45 Colt was pretty much the last word.

Yeah, and now a days if you are not hand loading you cannot afford store bought 45 Colt. Yikes!

[bigted]

Fellers ... if in doubt about your 45 Colts, do yourselves a favor ... load the original Colt load;

... 40 grains of 2Fg Ol E powder or Swiss ( I have never used Swiss powder but have it on good authority that Swiss and Old E ste neck n neck for cleanliness and power )
... compressed so as to be able to seat your 255 grain cast boolit
... crimp them in the crimp groove so as to get the most and best ignition and burn from your powder
... primed with CCI or Federal large pistol primers ( magnum primers not needed )
... load 5 of these in a Colts or Ruger 45 Colt
... after squezzing off these first 5 rounds ... gently lay down yer shootin iron and recall that those loads were the FIRST 45 Colt loads circa 1873.

If these do not impress, maybe you do need those 500 S&W magnums ... but I think you will be very impressed and prolly be tellin the storie many times over!

[Outpost75]

^^^BigTed nailed it^^^

Keith in Sixgun Cartridges and Loads (1935) thought the original BP .45 Colt defined the performance envelope of what we now call the "packing" pistol.

[Wolfer]

In a 7-1/2” revolver those BP loads will push a 255 gr very close to 1000 fps. When I got my 45 colt I wanted to duplicate that load with smokeless powder.
8.8 gr of Unique would push the lee 255 RF to about 970 fps. The most accurate load I’ve worked up. Not sure what it would take to recover a boolit from a Missouri Whitetail. Ive recovered a couple but they were dug out of the dirt behind them.

Things have changed since Mr Keith’s day. Now to shoot a 45 colt as much as a handgun hunter needs to shoot,reloading/ casting is nearly necessary.

[clintsfolly]

Shot a 1000 lbs Longhorn with my SSBlackhawk 4 5/8. Used a NOE 454-265wfn over 11gr of HS6. 3 shots at 30-35 yds and any one would have killed it. Two thru the ribs/ lungs and one in the neck just below the skull. All bullets where found as we skin it and fell on the floor. The one to the neck destroyed 2 vertebrae! What more could you ask for?

[Riposte1]

I have not taken any big game with a .45 Colt, but if you're interested in the topic, I highly recommend this book.
It's written by Max Prasac, who is a huge fan of the .45 Colt and loads it to levels that the old Colts of the past wouldn't even recognize.
He has taken some really big game with it.

https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Book-Hunting-Revolvers/dp/1440246076/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=max+prasac&qid=1566017811&s=gateway&sr=8-1


I'll second that, it is a great book! I've only killed or seen killed deer and wild boar up to 400 lbs. So I'd bow to the experience of others on bigger stuff.


My first boar, about 350 lbs live wt, was taken with the Norma carbine load fired from a 5" Model 29 - hit him in the heart. He was on his feet for about 15 seconds but I could not take another shot due to the dogs. He finally expired. On the same hunt the guy with the 4" .45 Colt dropped his instantly, and then the next year he did it again. I'm a convert to the .45 Colt!


BTW last night I watched max take several African animals with revolvers. One was a cape buffalo! He used a .50 of some kind for that and a .454 on the plains game - the show is called "Big Iron" on Amazon Prime.


Riposte

[DougGuy]

Missing is the gun rag article on the tier2 load think it was a 255 K type boolit @ 1100fps and they took a treed 300# black bear with it. It was American Handgunner maybe, 2012ish or thereabouts? Can't remember who the author was but seems like he was a well known gun writer. I have looked for this article and never found it maybe someone reading this thread can link to it?

[Driver33]

Doug I think the article you are speaking of is hand loader issue 283 April 2013.

[Messy bear]

Many bison have been taken on our place with a 45 colt. One that I remember well was a young cow at 1000 lb. she was smart and when I got the opportunity at 50 yd I put a 310Keith in her just at the edge of the shoulder missing the bone. she spun and ran 100yd to a shale outcropping that was out of sight. I got there as quick as I could as I was apprehensive about the shot. not to worry as she was dead when I got there and the bullet had exited. We have had many experiences like that one with the old 45.

[frank505]

And Marky Bear shot that heifer( bison) with his short vaquero straight on. She staggered around and fell down dead. I think it was a 270saa and 2400. We’ve killed lots of stuff with 45s. Go try it, lots of fun.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Yep been a fan of the 45LC for along time. My carry load is a Lee FN 300 gr GC over 15.5 gr of 2400 for 950 fps in my 4.5" RH. Never feel under gunned for anything I might encounter!

[Lefty SRH]

I really enjoy the 45 colt. I havent had many opportunities to take large game with a 45 yet. But I do have one sow hog under my belt. I used a 5 1/2” barrel Bisley with a 315gr MiHa Penta HP Ruger ONLY bullet running around 1150fps. The shot was 30-40yds and she didnt go far at all. Complete exit after going thru both shoulders, I believe.
Cant wait to have another chance!

[Bazoo]

Thanks everyone for sharing.

[dverna]

Thanks for all the replies.

I know a blackhawk can take higher pressure but it ain't pleasant for my wrists. I am considering switching to 45 colt from my 44 mag, but ain't made no decisions yet. I run some full power loads in 44, but like starting magnum loads better. Seems like the best compromise of power and shootability for an all around load.

If you just want to justify a new toy get the .45. It will not do anything your .44 Mag will not already do. Load your .44 Mag to .45+P ballistics and you will get the lower recoil you want. If having a tiny bit larger diameter bullet is a game changer....well.....I doubt it.

In the end, recoil energy is going to be the same with the same weight bullet at the same velocity out of a .44 or .45.

[Bazoo]

I know it Don, thanks. I'm having issues with my 44 leading as a result of needing a barrel constriction removed and overly large cylinder throats. Ive contemplated selling it and getting a 45.

One of my reasons for my query is that I read a lot about handgun hunting and never see the colt mentioned. It's always 44 mag or 454, 480 or larger. I know many a person has killed deer with the colt, but you don't see a lot of hunting stories with colt/Ruger loads. Everyone I've seen was always where folks are approaching 454 ballistics.

[MGySgt]

Don't do it~ they were loded in ballon head cases that hd more voluume than the newere cases that have a solid head!


Fellers ... if in doubt about your 45 Colts, do yourselves a favor ... load the original Colt load;

... 40 grains of 2Fg Ol E powder or Swiss ( I have never used Swiss powder but have it on good authority that Swiss and Old E ste neck n neck for cleanliness and power )
... compressed so as to be able to seat your 255 grain cast boolit
... crimp them in the crimp groove so as to get the most and best ignition and burn from your powder
... primed with CCI or Federal large pistol primers ( magnum primers not needed )
... load 5 of these in a Colts or Ruger 45 Colt
... after squezzing off these first 5 rounds ... gently lay down yer shootin iron and recall that those loads were the FIRST 45 Colt loads circa 1873.

If these do not impress, maybe you do need those 500 S&W magnums ... but I think you will be very impressed and prolly be tellin the storie many times over!

[Lonegun1894]

MGySgt,
Why do you say not to do it? Other than slightly less volume, so slightly less black powder, there won’t be a difference in the performance. The balloon head cases make a difference if using smokeless, but I don’t understand why you warn not to do it using black powder.

[Outpost75]

As FYI here is my hunting bullet 45-264H which Tom Ellis at Accurate Molds did for me, having correct nose length for the Colt SAA and New Service, with full diameter forepart, substantial crimp groove, adequate lube capacity, with bevel base to ease loading. I ordered mine with band and forepart diameters .454 allowing for Tom's normal +0.002" tolerance to fit the .456" cylinder throats of my 1920 Colt New Service as cast or with minimal sizing.

248660

[Outpost75]

MGySgt,
Why do you say not to do it? Other than slightly less volume, so slightly less black powder, there won’t be a difference in the performance. The balloon head cases make a difference if using smokeless, but I don’t understand why you warn not to do it using black powder.

The main concern with balloon-head cases, if you get them as fired brass, you don't know whether or not they may have been fired with mercuric primers. If they have, there is no way to effectively clean them to restore the brass to safe condition. Brass cases which have been fired with mercuric primers will be brittle and will frequently blow the head, even with standard pressure loads. My original 1906 Colt SA has a loading gate which is not numbered to the rest of the gun for that very reason.

Unless you are working with new factory-primed brass you know has non-corrosive, non-mercuric primers, or you pull down, decap and reprime old ammo which has never been reloaded, you don't know what you have. American commercial primers after WW1 were generally non-mercuric. Non-corrosive primers came into use in the late 1920s. If the fired primers are white tin-plated and of WRA, Western or Remington-UMC headstamp, you are probably OK.

If the primers are copper colored, or if white metal but headstamped U.S. Ctg. Co. in the old orange and blue boxes, I would not take a chance on them. Sell to a collector.

[derek45]

Anyone who's interested in revolvers, handloading, handgunning, etc., should read this book.

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[fcvan]

Some years ago, I bought an H&R 1871 chambered in 45 Govt. Yup, it was a Govt. before everyone called it Colt or even Long Colt. :-)

It took some time before I was able to find a Ruger Vaquero with the Large frame.The original owner only shot wax as it never saw actual boolits. I've shot some stout loads through both which were fun as heck.

My favorite load was a round ball load with Bullseye, right at 900fps from the carbine. Quiet like a 22lr, hard hitting as one might expect. I don't know what the Vaquero would do as I hadn't bought it yet. Dad has a 1899 New Frontier which has only seen black powder loads. Dang if 45 Govt. isn't the bees knees.

[MGySgt]

MGySgt,
Why do you say not to do it? Other than slightly less volume, so slightly less black powder..........................................

What are the 3 ways Black Powder can be set off??? Spark, static electicity and compression. Is there enough less volumn difference that might make an event happen due to less volumn? I don't know, but I would consult some expert advice before I loaded 40 grains of Black Powder in a 45 Colt case and topped it off with a 250/255 gr RNFP and touching it off with a primer. I have been looking for an old Lyman reloading manual I have that shows Black Powder loads in mondern cases (solid head) - can't find it, haven't seen it in years either. Before loading Black in modern day cases I would get a modern day Black Powder manual that gave appropriate loads.

I like my guns and my hands in one piece. Remember Black Powder is a class A explosive not a propelant like smoke less powder.

[Lonegun1894]

MGySgt,

Thank you for the explanation of the different primers, I didn’t know all that.

However I have to disagree with you about black powder. I’ve been shooting muzzleloaders for about 20 years now, and have also used plenty of black powder in assorted cartridges. So not a newby on that front. Here’s the interesting thing about black powder. You don’t have to worry about it in your ammo as long as there is no airspace. Airspace acts as an obstruction and can ring your chamber or cause other over pressure issues. So the only things you really need to worry about is consistency. Stuff it as full as you want, leaving just enough space for your cards/wads (if you’re using them), and your bullet. I have loaded my .45 Colt and my .45-70 by literally dumping powder into the case until it was overflowing, seating my bullet on top, and crimping it in place. The firearms used were a Ruger Vaquero and a H&R Buffalo Classic, and this was safe in my guns at least, accurate, and never showed any pressure signs. As to setting off black powder, a spark will do it, like you said. Static I’ve tried and never have succeeded in getting ignition. And compression, once again, I disagree. A friend of mine and I tried to compress it on a 10 ton press, and failed to get ignition after a couple dozen tries, so if compression will do it, it takes more than 10 tons of pressure. I seriously doubt any of us get enough compression on our ram rods or loading presses. As always, we’re all responsible for what we each do, but just sharing what I’ve seen.

[megasupermagnum]

What are the 3 ways Black Powder can be set off??? Spark, static electicity and compression. Is there enough less volumn difference that might make an event happen due to less volumn? I don't know, but I would consult some expert advice before I loaded 40 grains of Black Powder in a 45 Colt case and topped it off with a 250/255 gr RNFP and touching it off with a primer. I have been looking for an old Lyman reloading manual I have that shows Black Powder loads in mondern cases (solid head) - can't find it, haven't seen it in years either. Before loading Black in modern day cases I would get a modern day Black Powder manual that gave appropriate loads.

I like my guns and my hands in one piece. Remember Black Powder is a class A explosive not a propelant like smoke less powder.

Blackpowder cannot be ignited by compression. The idea of setting it off from a static charge from a person is shaky at best, and seemingly can't be replicated in any test I've seen. Sparks can obviously set it off. Blackpowder is a low grade explosive AND a propellant. Blackpowder can be compressed greatly with little change in how it burns. I've never taken it this far, but if you compress blackpowder enough, it burns slower not faster.

There is no danger at all in reloading with blackpowder. It is as close to goof proof as they come. Don't leave air space. That is the one and only rule anyone needs to know, and even then a tiny bit of room is not going to cause a problem.

[Wayne Smith]

FWIW - I have loaded compressed 40 gr Goex FFG in 44-40 cases (modern Starline) and bulged the cases slightly. They all fired fine, but that much compression is a lot of work. I dropped back to 38gr and am satisfied. Your only problem compressing the old load is the strength of the side of the case. Otherwise your fine, by my experience.

[MGySgt]

Thank you all for your first hand knowledge - call me a wimp or a p@##$, I don't care, I load accordaning to published load manuls that have been pressure tested. I do not want to to the exception to the rule and wind up with a damaged firearm or worse.

Now I will sit down and shut up.

[Bazoo]

Interesting thread drift, thanks to all for sharing.

[Outpost75]

The static electricty danger is well documented in loading commercial quantities of ammunition, and in igniter packs used for separate loaded artillery and squibbs for aviation ordnance. https://books.google.com/books?id=YrLOTEAyNpcC&pg=PA404&lpg=PA404&dq=static+discharge+ignition+of+black+powder+ignit ers&source=bl&ots=hCvKonkdmG&sig=ACfU3U1Yi_QnoVqs_ZXtb5i1ScFshci7xg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjl7dmzmefkAhVcIjQIHSm4CDgQ6AEwEHoECAcQA Q#v=onepage&q=static%20discharge%20ignition%20of%20black%20pow der%20igniters&f=false

You don't want to use a steel powder measure for measuring black, I have a custom all-brass rotor which fits my RCBS Little Dandy for loading BP .45 Colt and .44-40 rounds, and a brass plug which screws into the expander die body which I use for powder compression before seating the bullet. I also have a brass 10-inch drop tube for the Little Dandy used for loading BP, and I use a Bounce drier sheet on the plastic powder reservoir and also have a ground wire running from the measure and the loading machine to a copper buss bar which grounds the other equipment in the shop.

[Lonegun1894]

Thank you all for your first hand knowledge - call me a wimp or a p@##$, I don't care, I load accordaning to published load manuls that have been pressure tested. I do not want to to the exception to the rule and wind up with a damaged firearm or worse.

Now I will sit down and shut up.

Please don’t “sit down and shut up”. That definitely wasn’t my intention. Was just trying to be helpful. For the most part, especially when dealing with smokeless powder, your advice to stick to published and tested loads is exactly spot on. But black powder is kind of a different animal and one that few are used to actually dealing with nowadays.

[MGySgt]

Lonwgun1894 - All I was doing was pointout that there is a difference in the load density between ballon and soild head cases and you can get into trouble loading black just as quick as you can with smokeless if certain safety precausions are not followed. As note there are some very different saftey precausions to take with black than with smokeless.

Have a nice day.

[megasupermagnum]

I certainly did not mean to offend MGySgt. However I'll disagree with you on loading blackpowder. You cannot fit too much into a case, any case. If you can still chamber the round, it is safe. It might not be the best shooting, but it is safe. The case capacity does not matter. FFFg, FFg, Fg, it is all safe.

Safety precautions for loading black powder: don't leave air space

There is not enough time in the world to describe the millions of ways you can screw up with smokeless powder.

If you are really worried about static electricity, run a wire from your powder measure (if you use one) to your bench, and then to ground.

Blackpowder is the most idiot proof propellant ever invented, and I'm surprised so many reloaders have forgotten this.

[Lonegun1894]

There is a tiny bit of extra space for more powder in a balloon head case, and you can increase load density by increasing the compression, but it makes no difference in safety due to the low pressures involved.

[MGySgt]

My whole point is to follow saftey precautions when loading - by having a black powder manual (hopefully the precautions were read) the appropriate precautions would be taken as mentioned by Outpost75 before the handloader gets into trouble.

I am not upset - but this is the same reason I do not post much here, or anywhere, any more - too many 'Duty Experts' that haven't read safetuy precautions.

[Outpost75]

My whole point is to follow saftey precautions when loading - by having a black powder manual (hopefully the precautions were read) the appropriate precautions would be taken as mentioned by Outpost75 before the handloader gets into trouble.

I am not upset - but this is the same reason I do not post much here, or anywhere, any more - too many 'Duty Experts' that haven't read safetuy precautions.

Aye Gunny!

The reason I never worked retail is that fully 20% of the customers walking in the door are too stupid to own guns!

Expect we may have travelled in similar circles. Did you ever know Ole Dad Wincentsen?

248946

After I left Ruger I worked with him and Maj. Jim Land, and Maj. Cutty on the M16A1E1 project and some others at MCDEC in the 1980s.

[MGySgt]

While I was at MCDEC most of the 80's, I do not personnaly know any of them. I believe they were all at Weapons Training Battalion and I was on Main Side at Computer Sciences School as an Instructor.

By the Way - It is Master Gunny - a Gunny is an E-7 I am an E-9. :) :) :) :)


Aye Gunny!

The reason I never worked retail is that fully 20% of the customers walking in the door are too stupid to own guns!

Expect we may have travelled in similar circles. Did you ever know Ole Dad Wincentsen?

248946

After I left Ruger I worked with him and Maj. Jim Land, and Maj. Cutty on the M16A1E1 project and some others at MCDEC in the 1980s.

[Gray Fox]

I am a life SASS member with an early 4 digit badge number who has shot both cap and ball revolvers and cartridge guns in .45 Colt, in the hundreds of rounds. My operating manual, if you will, is Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Six Guns of the Old West", published in 1997. He covers the BP loading process and includes tested load data for most of the cartridges of the period. I'm a retired CW04, myself, and a former instructor as well, and agree with your basic ideas. GF