My new Rolling Block Project.

[Keith]

This is a long term project.
I am finding my 45-90 is getting to my crook back after a long session so will probably sell it.
I have a 45-70 Roller I will keep but want to try a 40 cal so this is it.
Bought the action yesterday as a basis. It has V form barrel threads so not a Remington , but not much in the way of markings. One can just see a K under a crown and a bit of reading makes this one made at the Konigsberg Arsenal in Norway.
I have never seen that Hammer lock business before. The receiver looks to be Nickel Plated although I first thought it was just polished. The pivot pins are a bit worn so I might have to drill them bigger and maybe make new pins from the drill shank. Any thoughts on this or the hammer lock?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48554339257_1483329d15_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gYzFsi)IMG_2434 (https://flic.kr/p/2gYzFsi) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[country gent]

Depending on your equipment I think I would bore the holes .100 bigger then sleeve and recut to size keeping the pins the same. A couple sleeves turned from 4140 0r 8620 with .0005-.001 press left with bore .050 small could be pressed in to new holes and bored to size on location.This would save making new pins and possibly the lock bar. If a standard rem hammer will inter change I would drop that in and fit to trigger and block. More so for the lines of it. If you decide you want to blue or case harden it for finish that nickel plate is going to be a problem. Sometimes under nickel is a copper plate coat also, neither of these will color. 40-65 is a good choice as the 45-70 extractor should work

[Gewehr-Guy]

That style safety hammer was commonly used on Husqvarna rolling block shotguns,I believe around 1900 or shortly thereafter, to prevent a pierced primer from blowing the hammer back to full cock and unlocking the action.
I've also got a Norway built rifle, a LARSENS VAABENFORR, KRISTIANIA, that has a thin second safety hammer mounted beside the normal looking main hammer. This is a heavy sporting rifle with an octagon barrel and a somewhat intricate adjustable for windage front sight. The caliber marking is CAL 450 , using a long bottleneck case.

[Keith]

Depending on your equipment I think I would bore the holes .100 bigger then sleeve and recut to size keeping the pins the same. A couple sleeves turned from 4140 0r 8620 with .0005-.001 press left with bore .050 small could be pressed in to new holes and bored to size on location.This would save making new pins and possibly the lock bar. If a standard rem hammer will inter change I would drop that in and fit to trigger and block. More so for the lines of it. If you decide you want to blue or case harden it for finish that nickel plate is going to be a problem. Sometimes under nickel is a copper plate coat also, neither of these will color. 40-65 is a good choice as the 45-70 extractor should work

It did not come with barrel or extractor so I need to make that also. I think I will leave the finish as is, just give it a buff to remove the rust. The hammer pin is not so worn, just the BB really. Might just take a hair off with an adjustable reamer and make a new pin.
It will be a 40-70 near enough when finished and I am getting a reamer made just for paper patch for it.

[Keith]

That style safety hammer was commonly used on Husqvarna rolling block shotguns,I believe around 1900 or shortly thereafter, to prevent a pierced primer from blowing the hammer back to full cock and unlocking the action.
I've also got a Norway built rifle, a LARSENS VAABENFORR, KRISTIANIA, that has a thin second safety hammer mounted beside the normal looking main hammer. This is a heavy sporting rifle with an octagon barrel and a somewhat intricate adjustable for windage front sight. The caliber marking is CAL 450 , using a long bottleneck case.

There is interesting stuff around. I have never seen one like this, or yours, before.
I guess I will get used to it. I wonder why Remington went to the button pin retainer instead of the original captive screws the Swedes stayed with. They cant get lost in the field where as if a soldier dropped the screw or button in the mud its gone.

[Gewehr-Guy]

Your question about the action pin retaining methods caused me to go digging in the armory for rolling blocks, and this is what I found , an original 1st contract of 10,000, Remington made rifle, dated 1867 on frame, which uses the Swedish style captive screws.

Next was a Remington built action,of the 2nd contract of 20,000 and built into a rifle by Carl Gustaf and the stock dated 1868, but this rifle now uses the Rem button pin retaining bar. This rifle is in as new condition with the rimfire breech block, a real gem

The next rifles,Husqvarna and Carl Gustaf, now use the captive screws, until I found a 1874 dated Carl Gustaf , that went back to the Remington button style retainer. I think all later arsenal produced rifles used the Rem method, but some commercial rifles and shotguns then used a screw threaded into the pins to retain them. I'm not sure which method is best, as they all seem to come with missing screws and parts

[Keith]

Does your Remington built Carl Gustaf look like this?
This was rimfire but has been converted and has the stamped out number on the rear sight.
Some I have seen dont have the front band at the very tip. This has no metal nose cap either. I think this is one of the 2nd contract 20,000 as well

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48506571792_47278222f6_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gUmRRj)Remington 12mm 01 (https://flic.kr/p/2gUmRRj) by

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2gUmUN1]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48506581692_ed0e6e9a10_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/)Remington 12mm 03 (https://flic.kr/p/2gUmUN1) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48506576892_be286c39db_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2gUmTnf)Remington 12mm 02 (https://flic.kr/p/2gUmTnf) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Gewehr-Guy]

Mine looks like it came out of the same crate, except someone decided to give mine a coat of shellac to preserve it, which it did. My first contract model is stocked in walnut, and the barrel bands are solid and attached with spring keepers, and has an iron nosecap.
The rear sight appears like the later Swedish models, may have been replaced at one time. the old model is in very poor condition, missing the breech block, but maybe I,ll find one out of an old Egyptian rifle, as they are about identical.

[Keith]

Can anyone give me dimensions and pitch of this receiver. I dont have a barrel stub and cant find my internal thread gauges.
Its a v form thread unlike the Remington. Save me some work if someone knows :)

[Dutchman]

The crown over K is for Kongsberg Vaapenfabrik Denmark.

I've had my hands on one Swedish rolling block action that had vee threads. FYI.

Dutch

[country gent]

if you cant check internally then pack the receiver threads with clay and remove carefully. or use cerosafe and make a casting of them to get pitch. Be sure to coat the threads with release agent before attempting these. It will make a mirror image or male of the threads to check. Clay is soft and needs to be handles carefully the cero safe is harder and more durable.

Put a piece of square stock in the center of the receiver and it will aid turning the casting out. A washer that can be made to fit the square stock and sealed with tape and a big enough od to seal front of receiver clamped in place and warmed melt cerosafe warm receiver and insert again then pour in cerosafe let cool to instructions and remove. You can now measure pitch, and size from this. Max dia, min dia, pitch dia are all there very close

[Deadeye Bly]

It looks to be a shotgun action with the hammer nose shaped the way it is. I have two barrels that were taken off actions with V threads. Both are 1" diameter X 14 threads per inch. One is definitely a V thread but the other has rounded crest and root like a Whitworth thread but more pronounced and the thread angle seem less than 55 deg. Your action had a sliding extractor. The hardest part to fit a new barrel is getting it to fit the radius contour on the front of the breech block and look proper.

[Keith]

The crown over K is for Kongsberg Vaapenfabrik Denmark.

I've had my hands on one Swedish rolling block action that had vee threads. FYI.

Dutch

Interesting.
George Laymans book says the Crown over K was from Norways famous Konigsberg Arsenal.

[Keith]

Ok, so its been a shotgun by the sounds of it. I read that bit about the hammer nose on another forum this morning as well.
What I ended up doing was getting a stick of chalk and holding it against the receiver threads with my finger , moved it back and forth untill it was scored by the threads. Its 18 TPI but I dont know if its 60 or 55 degree.
I got a bit of inch rod and kept cutting a 18 tpi thread untill it screwed on.That gives me a start anyway. OD is a bit under an inch.

[Keith]

if you cant check internally then pack the receiver threads with clay and remove carefully. or use cerosafe and make a casting of them to get pitch. Be sure to coat the threads with release agent before attempting these. It will make a mirror image or male of the threads to check. Clay is soft and needs to be handles carefully the cero safe is harder and more durable.

Put a piece of square stock in the center of the receiver and it will aid turning the casting out. A washer that can be made to fit the square stock and sealed with tape and a big enough od to seal front of receiver clamped in place and warmed melt cerosafe warm receiver and insert again then pour in cerosafe let cool to instructions and remove. You can now measure pitch, and size from this. Max dia, min dia, pitch dia are all there very close

Good idea on the Cerosafe. I got impatient, did not think of that.

[Dutchman]

Interesting.
George Laymans book says the Crown over K was from Norways famous Konigsberg Arsenal.

I didn't check the book so you're probably right:-)

Dutch

[Keith]

The first thing I did was verify the threads by making a barrel stub. That went OK so I drilled it through and made a jig from it to lap the Breech block square. Glued a bit of 350 emery on the end of the rod with superglue and spun it with the drill.
Had to renew it about 10 times before I was happy with it.
Now I am not a machinist, just self taught from reading books so no doubt others will have better ways of doing things.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48987211698_75484d565f_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hCQgmf)Rebarrel 02 (https://flic.kr/p/2hCQgmf) by

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Actually it was not the first thing I did. As the BB pivot pin was very worn I reamed out the holes and made a new pin. It can be seen in the photo as its a bit bigger than the hammer pin. I still might turn down the head of it a bit more. The BB is a nice solid fit now as it had to be before squaring.

[Keith]

The fast twist barrel I had on order did not eventuate. Been waiting since July. Phoned them and they said they stuffed it up as a bit of swarf caught when rifling. They were going to start another but it would be another couple of months wait.
I cancelled, as I had a GM 16 twist here in 40 cal so will just go with that.
Chucked it in the lathe and threaded it.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48987774921_e9f051255b_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hCT9LZ)Rebarrel 03 (https://flic.kr/p/2hCT9LZ) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Keith]

Cut most of the chamber in the lathe, all but about half a rim. Screwed the barrel on then used the reamer by hand for the last bit until the cartridge case cambered easily.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49008876408_4e2dd10f75_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hEKivJ)Rebarrel 04 (https://flic.kr/p/2hEKivJ) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Keith]

Removed the barrel again, back in the mill to cut the slot for the early bar extractor. Used a Dremmel and lots of filing to cut the slot across to the case.
Had to use an angle vice to get the slot in the right place. It was a bit of guess work and I should have been a bit more up at 8 o clock instead of 7, but it worked out OK.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49008881818_07cc3f0a0d_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hEKk81)rebarrel rolling block 01 (https://flic.kr/p/2hEKk81) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/

[Keith]

While the barrel is off I thought I better mount the scope blocks.
Drilled a hole then left everything in place while swapping the drill bit for a blunt pointed thing I made to hold the tap handle in position.
I have had trouble before tapping shallow holes and not keeping the tap straight.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49009632677_b2c358f4f5_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hEPbjR)rebarrel rolling block 03 (https://flic.kr/p/2hEPbjR) by
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[Bent Ramrod]

Drilling those little shallow holes vertically in exactly the right spots and threading them straight (especially on an expensive barrel) is an exercise in nervous tension at best, and a real horror show at worst.

I reworked a second drill by grinding the point flat and did my best to hone the flute bottoms like a milling cutter. I follow up the regular drill with this one to get the pointy part of the bottom of the hole dead flat. I’m lucky if I can start the hole with a plug tap, and for bottoming I use one that I’ve ground off the partial threads so it’s full-diameter and absolutely flat on the bottom.

One of those teeny-weeny Starrett tap handles helps the “feel” for when the tap has bottomed out.

Ah, the sweet relief when the job is done and the blocks are on! :mrgreen:

[Texas by God]

I appreciate the posts and pics. I may refit and redo a Whitney RB someday.....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Chill Wills]

You know, for what it is worth, us home gunsmiths are allowed to rehearse a few times things like fitting a barrel or D&T a barrel for scope bases. Use scrap to find the pitfalls, and or improve tooling. Few of us ( I should speak for myself) are skilled enough to be 100% perfect right out of the chute.

[Keith]

Drilling those little shallow holes vertically in exactly the right spots and threading them straight (especially on an expensive barrel) is an exercise in nervous tension at best, and a real horror show at worst.

I reworked a second drill by grinding the point flat and did my best to hone the flute bottoms like a milling cutter. I follow up the regular drill with this one to get the pointy part of the bottom of the hole dead flat. I’m lucky if I can start the hole with a plug tap, and for bottoming I use one that I’ve ground off the partial threads so it’s full-diameter and absolutely flat on the bottom.

One of those teeny-weeny Starrett tap handles helps the “feel” for when the tap has bottomed out.

Ah, the sweet relief when the job is done and the blocks are on! :mrgreen:

I did not think of altering the drill bit but I did like you and ground one of the taps flat to get right down the hole. I will remember the drill trick for next time. (If there is one)

[sparky45]

Great work Keith; keep the updates coming.

[Lead pot]

Keith it's hard to tap threads straight using a T handle. I just chuck a bottom tap in the drill press and turn the chuck by hand and holding slight pressure down.

[country gent]

I have reset the "clock springs" on my drill press and mill to neutral tension. (they stay where you let them at ). This makes tapping easier to do. I normally center drill, drill flatten the bottom drill lightly chamfer ad tap all with the drill chuck in the machine. Small taps can be turned by gripping the chuck bigger may need a rod that fits the key hole.
Grinding a tap flat its a good idea to give the first thread some cutting relief, a few strokes of a stone will do it. Also clear chips and swarf often when tapping blind holes. Another trick is to pack the hole with a wax type cutting fluid before tapping. this pushes the chips up and out as the tap displaces it. On threads where I want a good finish and fit I rough tap with a - .010 tap then finish with a on size tap.

[bigted]

Looks like a fun project. My soft spot is Rollers. May have missed your choice of chambers ... I have an original Remington sporter that began life as 40 ??? Then rechambered to 40-65 Winchester. Very fun shooting rifle.

Looking forward to your progress. Interesting project.

What type stocks do you have in mind?

[longrange2]

Hi Keith, Now that its been shot how about some happy shots all put together. Vic

[Keith]

Keith it's hard to tap threads straight using a T handle. I just chuck a bottom tap in the drill press and turn the chuck by hand and holding slight pressure down.

I tried that but it did not feel right. It was hard turning the belts and motor over as well so I hit on the method of keeping the tap straight and I could feel when it bottomed easier than by turning the chuck.

[Keith]

Looks like a fun project. My soft spot is Rollers. May have missed your choice of chambers ... I have an original Remington sporter that began life as 40 ??? Then rechambered to 40-65 Winchester. Very fun shooting rifle.

Looking forward to your progress. Interesting project.

What type stocks do you have in mind?

It came with a pistol grip stock that seems well made. Unusual design for a straight grip roller. Pics later.

[Keith]

Hi Keith, Now that its been shot how about some happy shots all put together. Vic

Patience Vic:-)

[Keith]

Getting used to the scope but I need to think about a Tang and Globe.
I have a tang sight that I think is a Hoke but these Rollers have a lot of drop in the tang and it looks like I will lose a lot of elevation. A Soule type sits the staff up higher. I am comparing it with a couple of Pedersoli,s I have. I was looking at a Baldwin but cant find much info on his website. Is there info and dimensions anywhere or do I have to contact him. Heilman sights have been mentioned but not recently.

[Keith]

A couple more pics with the stock on.
It came with a forend as well but contoured for a round barrel. I did not like the pale wood at first but its growing on me. Its different.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49035710662_c1def4da32_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hH7Qph)rebarrel rolling block 07 (https://flic.kr/p/2hH7Qph) by
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2hH3Qdj]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49034929578_1f5eb936bb_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/)rebarrel rolling block 05 (https://flic.kr/p/2hH3Qdj) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Keith]

Well the first shoot started out OK but quickly went west. I was trying out different wad combinations but my wad punch is just a hammer hit one and is a bit small I think. The wads measure .405. I gave up and went home to clean out the lead mine. I put it down to gas cutting as my patch is long enough. I have a press mounted punch on its way from BACO . Its .410 so might make a difference. Also it will give a clean cut, not like my daggy old hand one.
I have the 45 cal punch cutting poly wads for my PP 45-70 and it works very well. No leading there.
I have my bench set up at about 120 yards from the target frame.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49035450376_ff23e9c7d4_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hH6v2A)rebarrel rolling block 06 (https://flic.kr/p/2hH6v2A) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05

[Keith]

Well it looks to be a keeper:-)
My Wad punch arrived from BACO so I quickly cut some .060 poly wads. Filled some cases with 80 grains of Swiss FF and Wano FF to see the difference.
No lead fouling any more. The Swiss had little compression , the Wano a fair bit. Enough to leave .18 for the boolit.
Apart from the first shot I think they are two minute groups. If I can keep it sub two minutes at all ranges I will be happy. This is at 130 yds.
I was surprised how much higher the Wano shot at the same sight setting. I will have to chrony them as I have found in the past Wano to be slower. Might be the extra compression.
One thing about a scope , I can shoot at dots instead of having to use the black as an aiming mark and move the sights around.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49052254863_73598a7e58_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hJzCq8)rebarrel rolling block 08 (https://flic.kr/p/2hJzCq8) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Chill Wills]

Keith wrote: " This is at 130 yds.
I was surprised how much higher the Wano shot at the same sight setting. I will have to chrony them as I have found in the past Wano to be slower. Might be the extra compression."

Likely the Wano does produce less velocity per grain of powder than the Swiss powder. At the range you tested, the slower load will print higher. This is due to the longer barrel time. The two trajectories will cross at some point down range and the faster will print higher on the target.

I want to add, that is a really good start! Nice job. And, the fact you take pictures is great.

[Lead pot]

Keith your effort paid off for you. Those are good looking targets.

Kurt

[bigted]

Nice. Good lookin project. Looks like it wants to shoot. Thanks for the report and pictures.

[Keith]

It is time to prepare the 2nd lot of 50 cases. I bought a Lyman long neck size die and ran them through that instead of the sizer I made with the chamber reamer. Well thats all I needed to do. The cases fit perfectly with no further work. If I had thought of that before I could have saved a lot of time and effort.

[Keith]

Just thought I would drop this in. Where I do my testing. Nice bit of shade but later when I go to 200 I will be out on the main range, no shade there.
Its been 35 *C nearly everyday and bush fires all around us. You can see the smoke haze.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49066320911_97bdbe5260_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hKPHLc)range shot (https://flic.kr/p/2hKPHLc) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Keith]

May be of interest. These cartridges are nearly 4 inches long and I have been trying to find a box for them.
Then by chance I saw the boxes I use for my wifes 6.5-284. They looked pretty tall. Case Guard MTM H50.
I couldnot use them for the 45,s but the 405 Winchester rim fits in them OK. However they would not go right down so I pulled out the black bit and saw that there were ribs inside stopping it. Out with the Dremmel and die grinder to drop the ribs an inch . The black bit with the holes sits an inch lower now and these cases fit right in. A bit of foam holds the bullets from moving.
I have 4 of these and as my wife does not shoot any more I guess I can use them. I just dont like that plastic hinge system much though.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49065841843_2cbca6c31f_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hKMgmp)rebarrel rolling block 09 (https://flic.kr/p/2hKMgmp) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Lead pot]

https://www.bing.com/search?q=lunch+pails&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&refig=940b816ff1404a0d90349743fd79e619

I used one of these( I had a old tin ) when I shot a .45-120-3 1/4, I cut a oak board and drilled holes that match the rim with a planter bit. If a needed a bunch of rounds I put a foam on top of the rounds and put a second layer. The lunch pail makes a good ammo box for any length cartridge.

[Keith]

Yes. Looks better than a green plastic box too. I have not seen any over here , must look around.
Chrony results.
Wano PP 80 grains 1283 to 1353 fps
Wano FF 80 grains 1262 1334
Swiss FF 80 grains 1384 1421

I am trying to get a load going with the Wano PP as its easier to get. Save the Swiss for my 45-70.

[dave roelle]

Have you decided on the final metal finish yet ?

Dave

[Keith]

Nah, want to see if its a winner first.:wink:
Quite like it in the white

[Keith]

I had some slight stock movement I wanted to get rid of. I bedded the tangs and front where it butts on to the receiver and put a through bolt in the stock that attaches to the tang screw. One of Mr Single Shots ideas.
All is now tight.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49080764206_7f33a883e5_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hM6Kfw)rebarrel rolling block 10 (https://flic.kr/p/2hM6Kfw) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

[Southern Son]

Just thought I would drop this in. Where I do my testing. Nice bit of shade but later when I go to 200 I will be out on the main range, no shade there.
Its been 35 *C nearly everyday and bush fires all around us. You can see the smoke haze.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49066320911_97bdbe5260_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hKPHLc)range shot (https://flic.kr/p/2hKPHLc) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

That looks like Bluff????

[Keith]

Bluff???. The only Bluff I know is down the bottom of New Zealand. I certainly dont live there.
Or did you mean Bluff, as in calling ones Bluff?
Still trying loads. Swiss FF which I only have 3 KG of. Wano FF, Wano PP and Wano P all of which I can buy more of.
One day I think I have it, The next another is better. I am just getting confused.

[Southern Son]

As in Bluff, between Blackwater and Dingo, on the Capricorn Hwy.

And out of curiosity, where did you get your Swiss? I have not seen any in Australia in ages, although, I have not been shooting much in the way of BPCR.

[Keith]

No. I shoot at the Kilkivan range.
I can not remember where I got the Swiss from. Three of us from here shot in the 2006 World Creedmoor match in Brisbane and we bought our Swiss before then. Some is in the plastic kilo bottle and some in the card rolled container.
I think you can buy it in South Australia as I believe Forbes is the importer. Might be wrong though.

[Keith]

I have decided to go with Wano P. The other powders are faster but this is only for mid range. I have my 45-70 PP for long range.
Nothing to write home about yet but 77 or 78 grains seem to be fairly consistant. I put the slug in the mould backwards and marked the start of the ogive. Thats what I have been patching to. I use the same 1 inch wide patch I use for the 45-70. The patches come off right in front of the bench but the front 10th of an inch is uncut along with the back that is folded under. I tried some of these with a 10th shorter but cant see much difference except I got a few strands of lead. These were the last of my boolits so only shot 3 shot groups. Just bought more 1 to 16 ingots from the foundry in Brisbane so can cast up some more.
I am still shooting at my 130 yard range in the photo.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49140461966_2082d0e6d9_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hSnHjf)rebarrel rolling block 11 (https://flic.kr/p/2hSnHjf) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05

[bigted]

Cool ... looks like she is comin along.

[Keith]

Yesterday using that same load of 77 grains of Wano P , .060 Poly wad , compressed a bit to leave .175 then a .030 card on top gave me this group.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49148884736_f791c51e8e_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hT7T7q)rebarrel rolling block 13 (https://flic.kr/p/2hT7T7q) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49148391498_4ac2256ed1_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809



[url=https://flic.kr/p/2hT5muj)rebarrel rolling block 12 (https://flic.kr/p/2hT5muj) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/

Today I shot the same load in No 1 then 78 in 2 and 3 then back to the same load in 4 as No1 again. All with the same sight setting. Why the difference in shot placement? Perhaps it barrel heating or just me not holding right.

That No 2 load with the vertical, perhaps I should work on that with a bit more compression.
Should I just compress more and add card wads, or add more powder and keep the compression depth the same?

[Keith]

I have been getting the odd day in back on the range, but my groups are not improving. One day 1.5 mins, the next over 2 mins with the same load. I am trying to be consistant with my hold but something is changing. The rifle is only 11 pounds and the barrel is 1 inch across the flats.
I have noticed that there appears to be a slight tight spot a couple of inches from the muzzle. I can feel the patch hesitating just before it pops out. What affect would this have?
I am thinking of turning up a pin gauge to check.
The barrel is 34 inches long so I can cut a couple off if need be.

[kens]

Hi, beautiful project.
I also have a rolling block action in the works, but it is at the bottom of a long list of projects. I enjoy seeing your project.
I am working up loads for a .31 cal muzzleloader with oversize .30 cal rifle bullets.
40gr. FFFg and I been getting fouling near the muzzle, sounds like a similar fouling as you mention.
My belief is its running out of lube near the muzzle. I am now in process of different lube, different lube groove bullet.

[country gent]

I would try a little more compression, you can add a wad or another grain of powder or 2. With paper patched bullets paper thickness can make a difference as can the length of the patch I like the wrap to end 1/32 ) .030 or just a little more short of the start, this allows for the slight radius in the over wrap formed going over the start.

How does the patched bullet fit the bore. You might try a slightly thicker or thinner paper. It can make a big difference.

Another thing to try ( this improved my loads a lot) when you cut your patches cut them from ogive to end of fold over so a small section of the bullets base still shows a circle of lead .050 -.090 in the center. This makes a much flatter base

[Keith]

I bought a bigger BACO mould. It is a bit tighter in the case and bore now. I forgot to mention for the New Year , I thought I would try Swiss. I only have 3 Kilos left. Bought it nearly 20 yrs ago.
The same volume that gives me 77 grns of Wano P gives me 84 grns of Swiss 2F.
Earlier in the month I did a test with 83, 84 and 85 grns. I have stuck with 84 as the load but still cant get consistant results.
I am wiping with 3 damp and two dry patches. I made up some bore wombats with a brush and a felt each end but they dont look anything like taking the fouling out so I will stick with patches for the time being untill I get it sorted.
I put a bullet in the mould backwards, scribed a mark on the nose. Set my calipers to that and use the jaws to scribe a mark on each bullet. Thats where I patch too.My paper cutter does not always cut parallel so the exposed lead on the base might vary a bit. I did not think its such a big deal.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49441880896_137172be5b_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ik1yEm)rebarrel rolling block 14 (https://flic.kr/p/2ik1yEm) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/

[country gent]

Use thin piece of metal, brass, aluminum, steel, even Plexiglas will work. Make a template of you patch length height and length with end angles. Use this to cut your patches. set 1-5 sheets on board set temple down and cut around with razor knife ( xacto), This will make very uniform patches. A paper cutter will do a wonderful job also. Mine is a rolling cutter with a adjustable so[ on outside of the blade and a triangle guide on the back. St front outside guide to cut strips to width. then use double faced tape to hold angle guide down. set outside guide to cut length and line up strips and cut angle on one end push thru to stop and cut keep cutting till strips are finished. This will cut a bunch of patches. accurately and quickly. write the measurements down for each caliber and bullet. A simple cutting board with a rail down one side 14" X 18" of a soft wood will extend blade life, allow push pins to be used to hold the stack of paper securely, and free up a hand for cutting. The rail helps hold the paper in alignment, trues the template to the paper. and does help hold the paper in place with the 2 push pins. The template is the original way of cutting patches. the template can be made with a hacksaw and file easily. Tin snips will cut the material but may need to be flattened after. Cut big and file to size. .060 60 .125 thick will work but the .125 you may want to bevel edges to this edges down. The cutting board can be made from wood or a cutting board can be made to work also.

[Keith]

I use a guillotine type cutter and cut a bunch of strips 1 inch wide but it relys on me keeping the edge of the roll flat with the top. Its a wide roll of paper and by the time the knife gets to the end the strip may be a bit wider or narrower.
I gather the strips , get them aligned and put a staple through one end then use the template to cut the angles.
I might experiment with ways like yours.
I turned up a copper slug today. Half is .397 and half .399. With the 397 in front it slides down the bore until the muzzle where the .399 hangs up. It can be pulled out with the fingers so its not much.
So Vic , you were right. Some GM barrels have a slight choke. Is this good or bad? I dont know but I might leave it there a bit longer. Its right at the muzzle so thats better that I thought.

[country gent]

The green river barrel on my 45-90 is tapered. The GR sitting here for the roller project is tapered. The Al Story barrel on the 45-70 on the is choked about .003 the last 4". The choked barrel you feel with the jag and patch easily. I believe taper or choke is a plus as it helps to keep the bullet tight in the rifling the full trip down. I believe my only Badger barrel has a taper in it also. This is why barrel makers ID the breech end. The taper running "backwards" isn't a good thing.

It is the nature of the shear type cutters to pull the paper as it cuts and its harder to hold since there's no clamp to lock it in place. The roller cutters have a clamp with 2 cams that lock hold the paper in place. A good sharp cutter will cut cleanly and accurately.

I use the Ed Cole 55 w paper in the roll 12" wide. I start by cutting sheet and marking edge against fence with a pencil. These are then stacked in sets of 5 sheets with fence mark up and aligned. This keeps the papers grain the same. I staple the back 2 corners close to the edge. I then cut the strips and again staple the back edge. Once the strips are cut I mount the angle guide to the table and against the fence. Set the stop fence to length. The first cut on the strip is eyeballed to put the angle on the square edge. It is then fed thru to the stop fence clamped and cut. I stack these in a box on edge. I can cut patches in the easy chair watching a movie. A couple hours produces a lot of patches. I have considered making an adjustable fence. Pivot point at front and a slotted leg and bolt to lock at correct angle. But the one I have and double faced tape works well.The first cut on the sheets is a eyeball trim cut to make sure all edges are the exact same

[Lead pot]

I have been getting the odd day in back on the range, but my groups are not improving. One day 1.5 mins, the next over 2 mins with the same load. I am trying to be consistant with my hold but something is changing. The rifle is only 11 pounds and the barrel is 1 inch across the flats.
I have noticed that there appears to be a slight tight spot a couple of inches from the muzzle. I can feel the patch hesitating just before it pops out. What affect would this have?
I am thinking of turning up a pin gauge to check.
The barrel is 34 inches long so I can cut a couple off if need be.

Keith the tight spot at the end of the muzzle could be a choke build in. Has it always been tight? if mot it could be lead build up. That will show up when you push a clean cotton patch through. If there is lead it will leave a gray streak on the white patch. Or it could be a carbon build up also. A clean bore the patch will come out just as white as it went in. In my case anyway it does.
Groups changing between range sessions is normal, fore me anyway. I blame it on the gremblin that follows me to the range. :)
Conditions will do this.

[Keith]

Right now the barrel is squeaky clean. I have been using Kroil and Turps. The tight spot has always been there and I have not worried about it. I am looking for excuses why I cant keep tight groups, like yours in the Frostbite match:grin: