Casting copper or ? bullets

[Rizzo]

So, I am from California where we now have a law that you cannot use lead for hunting ANYTHING.

My mind wandered and starting wondering what else we could cast to make non lead bullets that would work for hunting.
Copper melts around 2000 deg. F so that would mean probably using a forge of some sort to melt that stuff and also a stout steel mold I guess.

I suppose Zinc could be used, it melts near 800 degrees F but the weight is about 2/3rds of Lead weight.

Lead is so ideal with it's lower melting point and higher weight. Gr-r-r-rrr.

Thoughts?
Thanks

[poppy42]

Move to another state

[gwpercle]

Bismuth might work . It's cost is worth it to save all those endangered Condors..
By the way how's that working out ?

Thought's...as long as CA. is controlled by the Left...you are screwed blued and tattooed .
The only way to win is at the voting booth .
Good Luck.

I've been saving all my zinc wheel weights just in case someone comes up with a mould , method and way to cast usable zinker boolits with.
Gary

[Conditor22]

▲▲▲ Lead-free
https://www.rotometals.com/low-melt-fusible-alloys/ ---- CB sponsor

[Burnt Fingers]

You're not going to be casting copper bullets in a iron mold. The melting point is barely above that of copper. The strength however goes away a lot quicker than that.

Your choice is zinc, it's heavier than copper anyway.

[ThomR]

I'd start stocking up on zinc wheel weights. Just be careful how fast you are pushing a zinc bullet. From what I understand if you push a zinc bullet faster than 1,900 fps it causes the bullet to make zinc gas, and that is toxic.

[John McCorkle]

I believe shrinkage of the molten vs solid in copper is substantial enough to make this pretty impractical. Sizing would be a BEAR and you'd have to have custom graphite molds that would quickly wear out.

Far better pursuit would be to get a lathe and cnc and turn your own from stock. To cast perfect stock without any bubbles oxidizing voids or imperfections you'd need a jewelers vacuum chamber but still doable. It'd be alot of work and investment but man it would be cool. Some of the most impressive projos for hunting coming out now is cnc copper (like discreet ballistics subsonic expanders)...truly fantastic product but it would take alot of very specialized equipment to get started

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[country gent]

It wouldn't take a lot to turn copper bullets from bar stock. weight is lighter for a given length. It could be done on one of the mini lathes on a small scale. test runs for production a small screw machine could be set up. solid cooper slugs are much harder than copper jacket lead core so pressures may become an issue. Bismuth has been used for shot gun shot, How it would work for a solid bullet is the question. using the cast able metals bismuth, zinc, tin antimony mix like solders are the problem will be proving what they are in the field if checked. The officer wont have an xrf gun with him, Hes going to go on the looks and let the courts sort it out. SO not only do you need a visibly different material but one that's also use able. Maybe the solid turned copper slug in a nylon sabot. Or maybe navel artillery technology ig a hard slug with soft driving bands.

A small automatics 2 or 3 spindle screw machine set yup would make alit of bullets fast. But would take tooling / cutters made for the task. These machines normally don't bring much mire than scrap prices now with the cncs. For bullets 3 tools would be required a form for the ogive / point. a turning tool for the body and last a cut off to finish. If hollow points are desired a form drill for the cavity also. Since these can be turned in one chucking concentricity, balance should be ideal. This type machine running full coolant and proper feeds and speeds would drop a bullet every 10-15 secs from each spindle, it may be faster than casting. A machine with stock feeder and air chuck would run basically unattended.

[gwpercle]

▲▲▲ Lead-free
https://www.rotometals.com/low-melt-fusible-alloys/ ---- CB sponsor

That's an interesting link...they seem to have 5 lead free alloys .
Sounds like just the ticket for CA Casting

[mdi]

Copper can easily be machined, and "home machinist" tools can be used, no need for a very expensive high tech lathe. Not too difficult to turn a piece of brass/copper round stock to .001", or less, variation. A home lathe is much easier to work with and way less expensive than a furnace and tools capable of casting copper/brass.....

Shotgunners have been dealing with "no lead" shooting longer than CA's laws and I looked at a shotshell reloading vendor's catalog and I saw they offered lead alternatives for shot; bismuth, "heavy shot", tungsten and a "proprietary" Balistic Products shot, "ITX". I haven't any info on casting bullets with these alloys, but in a CA resident's case perhaps one would work. I've read "reports" here on cast zinc bullets and don't think I'd bother...

[Bookworm]

Be careful using lathe-turned copper projectiles. I can foresee getting a felony charge for using "armor-piercing" bullets.

[FredBuddy]

A few years ago, I stopped at a little shop in Millersburg, ohio and was surprised
to find the owner had a setup as described above by Country Gent.

He used copper round stock and the machine would drop a finished bullet
every few seconds. He demo'd it for me.

I was interested, but at 2 bucks a pop I decided I was lucky to
be back in Ohio.

Yup, move out of CA, or stock up on factory monolithic ammo.

[Idz]

Are you allowed to make your own hunting ammo in CA? A friend from CA told me only CA-certified ammo is allowed for hunting so he could not make his own even if it used lead-free bullets.

[T_McD]

At some point bullet buttons, 10 round magazines, and lead free projectiles get you to move. Or you simply ignore state law when it is unduly prohibitive.

[DonMountain]

Simple, just hunt out of California. You can still target shoot there with lead bullets. Just hunt with them somewhere else.

[Rcmaveric]

I have been following the Zinc bullets for a while. More out of curiosity. If I were in your shoes i would persue that. Only down side is you would need iron equipment and not steel. Steel holds up better. Zinc is one of the metals that will readily disolve other metals like water dissolves sugar.

For an alloy, i would start with zinc wheel weights. Add 2% tin and 2% aluminum (the tin will help with brittleness and aluminum will help with mold fill out). Dont worry about shredding the aluminum cans, just chunk in the whole can in, it will dissolve like sugar in water.

Use iron molds (not sure about brass, aluminum may be okay for a little bit but it wont last as long). You going to have to run those molds hot.

For a mold, i would look for a heavy for caliber type molds. That way you get closer to your normal bullet weight.

I wouldnt bank on expansion as your killing factor on game. You would need some testing on that. Like is it going to fragment, does it need a hollow point ext. You can play with the alloy to see what works good. Can adding more aluminum or tin help.

I have seen great things about the lack of need of lubrication in low velocities. Sizing is going to be a PITA.

I have been waiting and watching for someone to try these experiments. I guess i could, but call me lazy and low on funds. Pluss I have access to lead so havent really had a need other than curiosity.

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[megasupermagnum]

I see a few guys cast shotgun zinc "zlugs", and they seem to work out well. Personally, if hunting out of state was out of the question, I would look into casting bismuth alloy bullets. Both zinc and bismuth alloys are brittle, and any kind of expansion would not be desirable. In a handgun or larger rifle, no biggie. In a small caliber rifle, I wouldn't use it. It's expensive as heck, but I'm surprised I haven't seen guys cast bullets of pure tin. I would think that could produce a rather good, malleable bullet. If you are looking for shotgun shot, bismuth is the way.

[44Blam]

I am pretty sure you can powder coat them and call it Bizmuth...

[Kevins750]

Lead free bullets must be on the California "acceptable list" for hunting, making your own would technically not be legal.

[Walks]

Only "non-toxic" Projectiles are allowed. That includes Shot Shells and .22 Rimfire.
We already have Steel or Bismuth Shot Shells.
All the above are available as components.

As far as .22 Rimfire ammo goes, it's My understanding that is already being worked out.

We haven't been able to hunt with Lead in over 50 years, with the exception of .22 Rimfire ammo, and shot shells until July 2018.

Barnes, Hornady, Nosler all make non-toxic Rifle bullets and at least Barnes makes .357 & .44 Revolver bullets. I don't know about Sierra & Speer.

I have a box of bullets for just about every Caliber I load for. I may never be able to hunt again, but at least I'll be ready if I can.

[JimB..]

Cuttingedgebullets.com is another option. Unless you’re hunting hogs, with a machine gun, do you really use enough rounds that the cost of the bullet is that important?

[GhostHawk]

If you were determined to do it yourself. I think your best bet would be to use sand castings to create rods 3/4" thick and 4-6" long.
Then true them up and turn them out on a lathe. This would get you your best precision.

There are some copper shotgun slugs designed to break apart on impact. Spreading the damage.

Best choice IMO would be to get out of the state.

[dondiego]

Lead free solder works fine for bullets.

[country gent]

I don't think Id bother casting the copper rounds. 1/2" number 1 copper 4'-8' is available in most hardware supply stores in the form of ground rods. Sad casting copper and brass can become a trick keeping air bubbles and sand inclusions out.

[JBinMN]

IMO, It is truly disappointing that I am/We are reading this topic at all....

It should not ever have come to this...

[Rizzo]

▲▲▲ Lead-free
https://www.rotometals.com/low-melt-fusible-alloys/ ---- CB sponsor

Thank you for the link.
Yes, it does have some 0% lead alternatives.
Food for thought.

[Rizzo]

You're not going to be casting copper bullets in a iron mold. The melting point is barely above that of copper. The strength however goes away a lot quicker than that.

Your choice is zinc, it's heavier than copper anyway.
Thanks for your input, but, the chart I saw on the "net" says copper is heavier,
http://www.coyotesteel.com/assets/img/PDFs/weightspercubicfoot.pdf

[Rizzo]

Are you allowed to make your own hunting ammo in CA? A friend from CA told me only CA-certified ammo is allowed for hunting so he could not make his own even if it used lead-free bullets.


Lead free bullets must be on the California "acceptable list" for hunting, making your own would technically not be legal.

Thank you both for that input.
I was not aware of that.
Sounds like a deal killer.
<sigh>

[Rizzo]

Cuttingedgebullets.com is another option. Unless you’re hunting hogs, with a machine gun, do you really use enough rounds that the cost of the bullet is that important?

Good point there.
From a caster's point of view I was thinking of what I could use, rather than lead.

[JM7.7x58]

I’ve moved a thousand miles away from my hometown. It is expensive. You don’t know anybody. The new job didn’t happen/fell through (the owner was diagnosed with ALS and the business was sold to pay for medical costs.) Fifteen years later I still am not sure we made the right choice to leave our home state of California. California is a great place to live, but it has become very expensive. I’ve always lived near the ocean, and I probably always will.

This is a hobby. No hobby is worth uprooting your life. If you enjoy where you are then accept the workaround.

Buy some factory ammo, sight in your rifle, and go on with your great life. Enjoy your family and friends.

JM

$39.19 Barnes VOR-TX Ammunition 30-06 Springfield 180 Grain TTSX Polymer Tipped Spitzer Boat Tail Lead-Free Box of 20

$4300.00 The average cost of an interstate household move. Source; The American Moving and Storage Association

[Rizzo]

IMO, It is truly disappointing that I am/We are reading this topic at all....

It should not ever have come to this...
Yes, it's actually infuriating to me, along with all the other nonsensical gun laws we have here.
Gr-r-rr.

[Rizzo]

I’ve moved a thousand miles away from my hometown. It is expensive. You don’t know anybody. The new job didn’t happen/fell through (the owner was diagnosed with ALS and the business was sold to pay for medical costs.) Fifteen years later I still am not sure we made the right choice to leave our home state of California. California is a great place to live, but it has become very expensive. I’ve always lived near the ocean, and I probably always will.

This is a hobby. No hobby is worth uprooting your life. If you enjoy where you are then accept the workaround.

Buy some factory ammo, sight in your rifle, and go on with your great life. Enjoy your family and friends.

JM

$39.19 Barnes VOR-TX Ammunition 30-06 Springfield 180 Grain TTSX Polymer Tipped Spitzer Boat Tail Lead-Free Box of 20

$4300.00 The average cost of an interstate household move. Source; The American Moving and Storage Association

I agree with you JM.
Believe me, with all the craziness going on here in CA I have deeply considered moving out.
But, I love where I live. I have a 100 yard shooting range in my backyard, have family close by, etc., etc.
I'm staying put and try not to dwell on the negative stuff.
Good point with the financial comparison.

[Rizzo]

To everyone that has posted....Thank you.
Great input.
Hopefully this non-lead bullet craziness does not infect your state in the future.

[JM7.7x58]

Washington has been doing some pretty silly stuff. I hope lead doesn’t get banned up here also. Washington banned lead COWW ten years ago. However, they have left fishing weights and boolits alone.
JM

[Rizzo]

I did a search on the net about casting Zinc bullets and lo and behold, it pointed right back here to Castboolits! Duh-h-h!
Here is an interesting link on casting Zinc bullets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?136800-zinc-aluminum-bullets

Several negatives about Zinc.
It seems to have a corrosive effect on steel (rifle barrel?).
Fumes can be toxic.....but so is lead for that matter.

And one poster asked the caster to not shoot them at his range.
I suppose he harvests lead there and did not want zinc contamination in melting down the range scrap.
Valid point.

[Bird]

Here is the list for California certified ammo.
https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified
Rotometals is on the list. If you were to us their lead free alloy, get the cert with it.

[Rizzo]

Here is the list for California certified ammo.
https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified
Rotometals is on the list. If you were to us their lead free alloy, get the cert with it.

Thank you.
I see that Rotometals has had a bit of input/requests from casters that need a non-lead alloy for casting.
They came up with a Bismuth/tin 88/12:

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/

From that link:
"This ratio of 88% Bismuth and 12% Tin is the best ratio we have come up with as a substitute for lead. This alloy melts at about 395 F and is best cast or poured at about 500F. Testing the hardness with a Lee Hardness Testing Kit, we came up with an average of 19.3 on the Brinnell Hardness Scale, although there was a range during the testing.

The bismuth gives you the weight (as close to lead as possible) and the tin helps holds it together and makes it less brittle. This is an alloy we have been asked to make a few times so we decided to make a larger batch and have it easily available to everyone. As we are still testing this alloy, we are offering it at a lower cost and asking customers for feedback and their thoughts on how it works. Yes, we know it costs way more then a lead version, but hopefully with more volume, we can offer better prices in the future."

Wow, that does sound interesting but a bit pricey.
Without shipping cost, I calculate the bullet price for a 357 mag, 158 grain bullet to be approx. $0.35.
Barnes TSX copper bullets are around $1.00 each.

Bismuth/Tin looks like the way to go at this point.

[17nut]

What's wrong with pure tin?
Softer and heavier than zink and casts readily with normal equipment, oh and it's cheap.

[17nut]

What's wrong with pure tin?
Softer and heavier than zink and casts readily with normal equipment, oh and it's cheap.

[Peregrine]

What's wrong with pure tin?
Softer and heavier than zink and casts readily with normal equipment, oh and it's cheap.


By what standards is tin "cheap"? Compaired to silver maybe, unless you've played the pewter scrounging game to good effect.

I'm actually curious if anyone here has any experience with straight tin boolits, I've always wondered how those would work out, beyond being an extravagant indulgence. Bet they would look real pretty. :)

Anyways, bismuth is half the price of tin and about a third heavier. From the research I've done what the original poster is looking for is a tin/bismuth alloy.

[44Blam]

...officer, I cast these out of Roto-Metals '88% Bismuth, 12% Tin' alloy and then powder coated them...

[JBinMN]

I am curious as to how they will know just "what" your bullets or boolits are composed of if checked. The game wardens going to carry around XRF machines?

[Rizzo]

I am curious as to how they will know just "what" your bullets or boolits are composed of if checked. The game wardens going to carry around XRF machines?
I agree, especially if you powder coat your Bismuth bullets.
I guess the answer is what I think someone already posted is to keep a copy of your certification (from Roto Metals) with you while hunting.
Cheesh!!, all these hoops us gun enthusiasts have to jump through.....now background checks to buy ammo here in California.
Gr-rrr.

[megasupermagnum]

Game wardens have been carrying Hotshot devices country wide for decades to test waterfowl hunters. If they didn't carry something similar in CA, anybody could load jacketed lead bullets, put them in a Barnes ammo box, and nobody would know better.

California does have specific requirements on "non-toxic" metals that go beyond federal guidelines. Federally, any Bismuth and tin alloy is legal. I do not know if that holds true for California or not.

[Burnt Fingers]

With a melting point below 400° I think one would have a hard time powder coating that alloy.

[JBinMN]

Game wardens have been carrying Hotshot devices country wide for decades to test waterfowl hunters. If they didn't carry something similar in CA, anybody could load jacketed lead bullets, put them in a Barnes ammo box, and nobody would know better.

California does have specific requirements on "non-toxic" metals that go beyond federal guidelines. Federally, any Bismuth and tin alloy is legal. I do not know if that holds true for California or not.

I did not know that.
I quit hunting waterfall in 1979 in Minnesota because of protesting the lead free shot infringement the Minnesota DNR put in place for no good reason in my opinion anyway. And didn’t take up waterfowl hunting again until mid 1990s, because a friend of mine and my sons wanted me to get back into it again. So, going against my anger at the ridiculousness of the whole idea, and in the best interest of my sons, I took it up again. I was never checked while out in the field, so I don’t know if they have a way of protecting or not, but I do know that there are people that were busted because they went from upland bird hunting in the field to waterfowl hunting in the evening and got in trouble for having possession of lead shot while water fowling.

Anyway, I reckon they must have some way to check folks, and figure out A way they want to bust somebody for stupid BS.

Thanks for the info you provided though, I appreciate it.

Posting from my cell phone so if there is some kind of mistakes in the syntax punctuation or whatever suck it up ha ha.

[megasupermagnum]

I did not know that.
I quit hunting waterfall in 1979 in Minnesota because of protesting the lead free shot infringement the Minnesota DNR put in place for no good reason in my opinion anyway. And didn’t take up waterfowl hunting again until mid 1990s, because a friend of mine and my sons wanted me to get back into it again. So, going against my anger at the ridiculousness of the whole idea, and in the best interest of my sons, I took it up again. I was never checked while out in the field, so I don’t know if they have a way of protecting or not, but I do know that there are people that were busted because they went from upland bird hunting in the field to waterfowl hunting in the evening and got in trouble for having possession of lead shot while water fowling.

Anyway, I reckon they must have some way to check folks, and figure out A way they want to bust somebody for stupid BS.

Thanks for the info you provided though, I appreciate it.

Posting from my cell phone so if there is some kind of mistakes in the syntax punctuation or whatever suck it up ha ha.

It is ridiculous. It is probably the single biggest moment for Minnesota, the time when we even beat out California for stupid ideas. Of course the ban went nation wide just a few years later, but none of it did any good. Arguing against gun control is hard. Trying to repeal the lead shot ban which has done nothing falls on deaf ears, I've tried. No data before any lead ban has ever shown shot or bullets to effect wild life in any manner. A very specific study to a hard bottom lake showed that some deep diving birds could possibly be eating lead off the bottom, although to no detrimental effect to the population as a whole. I seem to remember about 3% testing positive for lead poisoning in that case. The study done way back in the 40's and 50's was the driving factor for the 1991 ban, and I believe it was later found that the real cause in that case was a pesticide, not shot or bullets. Here we are 30 years later. Nothing has changed. Duck populations have actually gone down. The deep diving loon that MN was so worried about has shown no significant population change since the lead ban.

Shotguns shooting 1 1/4 ounce of shot more or less, and many shots a season is one thing. How anyone can condemn a bullet, I'd say average 150 grains, and a single shot per year if they are lucky is beyond comprehension. Now here in MN we have people crying to ban lead in fishing! As if that one 1/8 oz split shot I loose a year matters at all. How about those 15,000 beer cans in the bottom of every lake? I've never heard of anyone wanting to clean those out.

It's absolute insanity, with no data to back it up. Now CA has banned lead outright, and I doubt there is any going back. Sorry this doesn't help the thread.

[JBinMN]

I agree Megasupermagnum.

To not sway/sidetrack the topic, I will stop with that.

G'Luck! to those in the Californistan Leftist controlled state.

I sincerely wish ya the best!

[GhostHawk]

I will say that while I thought minnesota's ban on lead for waterfowl was stupid and accomplished little or nothing,

I made the jump to steel and learned to kill with it.

I can see especialy on the big refuges, where you have loads of hunters blasting around the edge that you could possibly get significant lead buildup in places. But the easy fix there is simple require hunters with x distance of a refuge to use steel shot.

The sort of lakes our loons prefer (who can dive deep) are generally not the same bodies of water ducks prefer. So I see that as a non issue.

Any gamewarden can slap a magnet on a shell and see if it has steel shot. But that does not prevent someone from coming up with a duplex load of lead in the center surrounded by steel. Bismith is a whole nother game. I personally would not carry it afield without something proving what it is. Although in an idea world burden of proof is on the state.

As to our friends in Ca, I have one thing to say. GET OUT while you can.

Nevada, Arizona, Idiho would seem to be much better choices.

[megasupermagnum]

Its a non-issue. I duck hunt with only bismuth now. Never been field tested, but ran into a warden in town. Both rotometals bismuth shot and my home made shot come up as bismuth on the tester. Bismith/tin alloy has been well known since the mid 90's, its not exotic.

[Rizzo]

Thank you all for your input.

Yesterday I purchased three pounds of the Roto Metals Bismuth/Tin 88%/12% casting alloy.
The cost delivered was $55.64.

I am going to cast for my .357 mag Henry rifle.
I will be using a Lee 358-158-RF mold.

Despite the aggravating non-lead hunting issue I am looking forward to testing this Bismuth/Tin alloy.
Several new variables to deal with, but it should be fun.

I will post some notes and results as I progress.

[JBinMN]

At the price for that alloy I would suggest that you make or find and use a bullet trap to capture those bullets. The ones I use I make out of dimensional lumber (2x), some plywood or OSB, ground up rubber mulch they use for playgrounds and the like. I’ve made and used about a dozen and this is definitely a reason to have one at the price of that alloy.

[dbosman]

What's wrong with pure tin?
Softer and heavier than zink and casts readily with normal equipment, oh and it's cheap.

They are brittle compared to lead.

[dbosman]

How much pressure would be needed to swage copper bullets using a hydraulic press?

[country gent]

Getting copper to flow swaging would take a major press. In the draw redraw can line ( ,0010 steel) the cupper was 150 ton. the final draw press was 300 tons and this was tin annealed stock. Forming a solid copper bullet from cores would probably take 500 ton or better. You would still need the lathe to cut cores and the slight additional tooling to turn bullets and the added passes would probably be faster than cutting cores then the swaging combined would be. A simple form tool for the ogive / nose a turning tool for the dia and a cutoff tool to take the bullet off. Ground right the nose form cutter could be used for different calibers with the same nose the turning and parting tools would be universal also Just a change in stops or the program.

[Rizzo]

At the price for that alloy I would suggest that you make or find and use a bullet trap to capture those bullets. The ones I use I make out of dimensional lumber (2x), some plywood or OSB, ground up rubber mulch they use for playgrounds and the like. I’ve made and used about a dozen and this is definitely a reason to have one at the price of that alloy.

Good advice, thanks.
Yes, that is what I will be doing.
I shoot in my backyard (up to 100 yards) and have bullet traps at different distances (7 yd, 25, 50, 75 and 100yd.).
I use 18" x 24" x 10" deep boxes mounted on vertical 2"x4"s, filled with sand.
When I "harvest" my bullets I run the sand through a 1/4" screen to retrieve the bullets.

When I test the Bismuth/Tin bullets I will start out with a clean bullet trap at 75 yards so I can get my bullets back for re-casting.
That way I won't be mixing the lead bullets with the Bismuth/Tin bullets.

Yes, that alloy is pricey compared to the "free" lead I have been using.
<sigh> But, gotta stay legal.

[JBinMN]

Good advice, thanks.
Yes, that is what I will be doing.
I shoot in my backyard (up to 100 yards) and have bullet traps at different distances (7 yd, 25, 50, 75 and 100yd.).
I use 18" x 24" x 10" deep boxes mounted on vertical 2"x4"s, filled with sand.
When I "harvest" my bullets I run the sand through a 1/4" screen to retrieve the bullets.

When I test the Bismuth/Tin bullets I will start out with a clean bullet trap at 75 yards so I can get my bullets back for re-casting.
That way I won't be mixing the lead bullets with the Bismuth/Tin bullets.

Yes, that alloy is pricey compared to the "free" lead I have been using.
<sigh> But, gotta stay legal.

:drinks:

Glad you already covered that.
:)

G'Luck!
:)

[inspector_17]

I believe Remington now makes frangible bullets made from copper powder. Local powdered metal plant developed technique several years ago. Company gave samples to employees who hunted and reloaded. The employees gave good reviews.

[fcvan]

Several years ago, I found a supplier that sold lathe turned HPBT projectiles. 30 cal 150gr had the ballistic coefficient of a 168 BTNM bullet. They were $27.50/100 so I bought and tested a bunch. Good expansion in test media. They also had lathe turned .223 HPBT 55gr for $11.00/100 which shot well. Dang if they stopped carrying the copper bullets.

As far as cast Bismuth/Tin alloy, CF&G can request one of your cartridges for testing. I'll pull one of my slugs with a Leatherman making sure to screw it up. I'm not giving up my brass and primer! But, the regs. allow them to make a request. Note: I have heard this portion of the reg is under review as a violation of the 'takings clause' in the constitution.

I have read that some swagers out there are working on perfecting swaged condom bullets with Bismuth alloy cores. It looks like for now anyone from CA who hand loads will have to knuckle down and pay dearly for copper like Barnes or equivalent. MidwayUSA has them at roughly $38.00/50 for 30 cal 168gr. The frangible bullets are sintered copper/tin powder and disintegrate on contact, I've shot them, they are good on steel or in 'kill house' shooting drills for safety but I wouldn't want to waste meat on a shot that will likely blow up on the hide and not penetrate effectively.

[Rizzo]

So, like I posted previously, I ordered 3 pounds of the Bismuth 88%/Tin 12% alloy from Roto Metals.
I received it the other day.
Quick shipping and good packaging.

However, the "texture" of the ingots has me wondering how the bullets will look after casting.
Here is a picture of the ingot on their website that looks just like my ingots:
247298

I'm pretty busy right now so it will be a week or so before I start this new project.
It should be fun.

I'll post my experiences afterwards.

[shootrj2003]

The anti gunners thought hard about this,they know its hard and costly to make any bullet but lead and you won't ever convince me it is because of any other reason,lead is cheap,comparitively,,easy to melt,soft enough to flow with hydraulic power and heavy,like many metals it is toxic,so are cars,cities and many things used by men.

[fredj338]

I would say zinc or a babbit of some kind.

[sutherpride59]

I'd start stocking up on zinc wheel weights. Just be careful how fast you are pushing a zinc bullet. From what I understand if you push a zinc bullet faster than 1,900 fps it causes the bullet to make zinc gas, and that is toxic.

I’m gonna drop the BS flag in that one. Even if it is true 99% of folks are shooting outdoors or in a properly ventilated indoor range. Normal primers have lead in the mix that causes lead to be atomized in the air and just the same if you aren’t shooting indoors with poor ventilation everything is fine.

[Ozark mike]

The zinc thing is partly true yes it exists yes it is toxic. I have welded enough galvanized steel to be dead x 100 if it was as bad as everyone says. I have thought about zinc but lead is easier to find around here.

[Mal Paso]

So, I am from California where we now have a law that you cannot use lead for hunting ANYTHING.
Thoughts?
Thanks

California has gone too far. There is apparently a new law that tire pressure must be checked and adjusted any time a vehicle is serviced. Every shop prints it on their tag, No One Does It.

They cannot possibly prosecute all the stupid laws they have on the books, screw them.

[Green Frog]

Silver bullet? They always worked for a certain masked man from Texas.

For big, heavy game, solid bronze bullets in very large calibers would work well they make a big wound channel. For small game, however they wouldn’t be all that great. As we come up with alternatives for lead shot, it’s amazing how they come up as “hazardous to the environment” too... in fact it appears that all metals have been placed on that list in Kalifornistan from some of the product warnings I’m seeing in ads these days. :shock:

Froggie