Just use a thicker patch?

[brewer12345]

I have shot my TC Hawken in 50 cal with a .015" prelubed patch. I can't get real high up in my charges before accuracy goes to pot, even with an over powder wad. I am done dialing in the 54 so tomorrow I am going to the range to play with this rifle and see if I can get it to shoot a real hunting load with a PRB. I have some .018 patches and can also try a different powder (have been fooling with Black MZ, can break out the Olde E). I am thinking that trying a known accurate charge (with the thinner patch) of 70 grains of Black MZ and an over powder wad but switching to the thicker patch is probably the way to go. After I have tried various charges with that combination I could switch to the Olde E 2F and work up from 50 grains. Make sense?

[pietro]

.

I would respectfully suggest trying T/C's recommended accuracy load for a Hawken with a.50cal PRB (80gr FFg).


https://i.imgur.com/sw13tMDl.jpg

.

[KCSO]

85 grains is way plenty in a 1-48 twist to kill anything. That's not a 15 pound Sharps you are shooting.

[brewer12345]

Well, I tried it all. Two patch thicknesses, two powders, charges from 50 to 80 grains. This rifle does barely acceptable 50 yard groups with 60 grains of back mz. I think it just does not shoot round ball very well.

In contrast, a maxi ball with 80 grains of black mz or olde eynesford ffg did a cloverleaf and 90 grains was no slouch.

[Geezer in NH]

What size ball is missing

[brewer12345]

.490 balls. Perhaps I should try a 495, but I used what I had cast. Would it make that much of a difference? With te .490 balls I found the thicker .018 patch made it a real challenge to get the ball down the barrel.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm sure you can get acceptable 50 yard groups. I spent a large portion of my summer working with my 54 caliber TC renegade. I tried three powders, 4 patches, multiple lubes, and .530", .532", and .537" balls. Mine has a real problem with shredding patches. Any load I found that kept the patch intact was great at 50 yards. My problem was I was looking for 3" groups at 100 yards, and the very best I could do was about 6". My very best load came from 50 grains FFg OE, felt wad, Walmart pillow ticking lubed with Crisco, and a CCI mag cap. I swab between every shot. Other than the patch coming back darker, I can tell no accuracy difference between OE and standard Goex in this rifle. FFFg was worse than FFg.

So how do your fired patches look? Some I had would tear in the dead center. The felt wad helped a lot with that. Some tight fitting combos I believe tore on loading. I found any tapping ruined patches. I went to gently applying pressure to the short starter until they pop in. The ones that just blow to pieces are still a mystery to me. Just a, ever so slightly loose tight patch will blow apart.

I believe I'm just calling it quits, as the maxi ball shoots so much better. Some of these TC rifles just hate a patched round ball.

[brewer12345]

I suspected patch failure so I tracked down a bunch of my patches and they looked fine. No tears, holes, burnouts, etc. Half of them looked like I could pick them up and load them again.


I am thinking that if I want to shoot round ball out of this rifle I should pick up a green mountain slow twist barrel. The heavy conicals shot like a house on fire in the stock barrel, I just can't take the recoil of a long range session with them.

[megasupermagnum]

What kind of accuracy are you looking for?

2 things that I started doing long ago are one, use a CCI magnum caps, and two swab between shots. For fun, swabbing isn't needed, but it is needed for working up loads. You need a consistent bore, and more importantly, if you build crud in the bottom, you can't seat a ball or bullet to consistent pressure on the powder. Standard caps work just fine for a while, but after about 30 shots, I either need to clean or replace my nipple to continue. Magnum primers have 100% cured any ills I ever had, and have shot an entire pound of powder in a day with no misfires, not even a hint of a slow fire. A 209 primer is beyond overkill, and the magspark nipple I had was a royal PITA. Definitely use a magnum cap or a musket cap.

[brewer12345]

I use magnum caps and clean at least every third shot when working up loads. I found that the real black was waaaayyyyy dirtier than the Black MZ.

At 50 yards I would like a 2 inch group. In what I would consider hunting loads as far as powder charges go, I could not do better than 4 inches or so.

[megasupermagnum]

I do think a .495" ball would be worth a try. I couldn't get away with the slightly larger ball, because my patching would cut on loading. If your thick patches looked good, the thinner patch with the larger ball may be a good one.

I would swab every shot. Some guys like to swab every other, and shoot two targets. One target clean bore, one target dirty.

[taco650]

I do think a .495" ball would be worth a try. I couldn't get away with the slightly larger ball, because my patching would cut on loading. If your thick patches looked good, the thinner patch with the larger ball may be a good one.

I would swab every shot. Some guys like to swab every other, and shoot two targets. One target clean bore, one target dirty.

I shot some balls I cast from a Lee .490 mold I got a while back and with my washed pillow ticking patches well lubed with coconut oil, it was a PITA to get them down the bore, so much so that even though I swabbed between shots, I quit after four because I almost had to pound them down the barrel. My load was 80gr of 3f Grafs real BP. When I got home, I measured them and they were .492-.493. YMMV on using a fatter ball.

[scattershot]

T/Cs have fairly shallow rifling. I had best luck with a thin patch and a bigger ball. In your case, a .495 is called for.

[megasupermagnum]

I shot some balls I cast from a Lee .490 mold I got a while back and with my washed pillow ticking patches well lubed with coconut oil, it was a PITA to get them down the bore, so much so that even though I swabbed between shots, I quit after four because I almost had to pound them down the barrel. My load was 80gr of 3f Grafs real BP. When I got home, I measured them and they were .492-.493. YMMV on using a fatter ball.

For sure, I'm just guessing brewer12345's is on the normal to loose side. My 54 caliber has a .540" bore an .551" groove, and I could just barely start a .535" ball with pillow ticking by hand. It took a lot of force. When cast of 20/1 alloy, they came out at .537", and while I could start them if I put all my weight on them, a more reasonable method was a rubber mallet. They then went down the barrel with force, but I did not need to pound them down. Problem was the muzzle cut the patch. Now that I think of it, I should try those .537" balls with my slightly thinner twill fabric to see if that can start without tearing the patch. That twill with a .532" ball loaded easy, no tearing, but shredded to confetti on firing.

[waksupi]

They shouldn't load that hard. Use moose milk for lube, shoot all day with the same bore condition.

[bigted]

Never need to pound a patched ball down in a clean barrel ... either your patch lube is squirrelly or the rifling is rough. Ensure your balls are round and patch's are even thickness. Also experiment with the .495 balls (BOUGHT) so as to negate possible casting problems.

Loading should be seamless and not maybe easy, but loading by hand with the rifles rod should really be possible.

Magnum caps should not be needed. Maybe your breech is clogged and needs a good cleaning with a good solvent to get ALL fouling out of there

I have taken 220 sand paper by hand to the crown if shredded patch's are suspected at loading. Then 400 grit followed by 1200 grit for a polished entrance at the muzzle.

If uneven or rough rifling is a thing ... take valve grinding (clover) water based grit and on a tight patch run it back n forth 20 or thirty times. Clean thoroughly and completely followed by a good coating of CLP foam and work this up and down 20 times on a hair dryer warmed barrel. If this does not smooth it ... repeat another 20 scrubs with the clover followed again with thorough cleaning and followed again by a warmed barrel with CLP.

Just some thoughts. You can find the combo it wants ... just keep at it and think outside the box. The rewards will far outweigh the journey. Enjoy the ride ... tis the starch that makes us.

[brewer12345]

Now that I think of it, another possibility is the ancient lyman mold I used to cast the balls. When I next cast pure, I will have to do some 490 balls with the new lee 2 banger I have but have never used. Probably isn't happening before hunting season at this point.

[indian joe]

They shouldn't load that hard. Use moose milk for lube, shoot all day with the same bore condition.

hmmmm we keep yelling this from the rooftops ---must be its too simple, too easy, and it works too good fer people to want to try it !!!!

[megasupermagnum]

hmmmm we keep yelling this from the rooftops ---must be its too simple, too easy, and it works too good fer people to want to try it !!!!

Simple? You have to hunt through 4 different stores to find oddball ingredients to make something that is only good for range use, not hunting.

[Edward]

Moose milk=Ballistol and water nothing strange /weird or oddball just the ratio /mine is 7 parts water/1 part Ballistol but you can make up yer own to be different (for target) . Hunting I use bear oil /coon oil/and possum oil in that order but my stores are usually out of stock ,maybe yours are better stocked for hunting season than mine/Ed

[megasupermagnum]

Moose milk=Ballistol and water nothing strange /weird or oddball just the ratio /mine is 7 parts water/1 part Ballistol but you can make up yer own to be different (for target) . Hunting I use bear oil /coon oil/and possum oil in that order but my stores are usually out of stock ,maybe yours are better stocked for hunting season than mine/Ed

Really? Well that's worth a try.

Here are the recipies I've seen for moose milk...

#1 4 ounces NAPA Auto Parts #765-1526 Soluble Cutting & Grinding Oil
1 ounce Murphy's Oil Soap
7 ounces 91% Isopropyl alcohol
16 ounces tap water

or.

Castor Oil 4 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
Witch Hazel 4 oz.
Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated) 16 oz.

[indian joe]

Simple? You have to hunt through 4 different stores to find oddball ingredients to make something that is only good for range use, not hunting.

cutting oil and water is oddball ingredients ????????

[waksupi]

Really? Well that's worth a try.

Here are the recipies I've seen for moose milk...

#1 4 ounces NAPA Auto Parts #765-1526 Soluble Cutting & Grinding Oil
1 ounce Murphy's Oil Soap
7 ounces 91% Isopropyl alcohol
16 ounces tap water

or.

Castor Oil 4 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
Witch Hazel 4 oz.
Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated) 16 oz.

They are making it too complicated. Just the water soluble oil and water has worked for decades for me, and most of our club.

They ARE good for hunting. Soak the patches, let them dry. Load with a dry patch, and if you need to reload, spit on the patch for a bit of moisture, and you are good to go.

[Hanshi]

Bigted has great advice; polish that crown! Other tips are: *give 2F black powder a try/*try a larger ball/*thicker, stronger patch material. If the ball has to be pounded into the bore there is some seriously wrong one's procedure. A short starter and ramrod should be all one needs to load throughout the day.

My .50 is a little different in that it has deeper rifling than yours. I only use two lubes, TOW mink oil for hunting and Hoppes BP lube for everything else. I'll mention that I do sometimes use the blue windshield wiper fluid. I use .024" (compressed) unbleached canvas (occasionally denim) in my .50. Some of my other rifles do well with cotton canvas duck (.019" compressed) or in one case mattress ticking .017" compressed. With all load combos I use there is significant patch compression in the rifling grooves. With these loads I'm able to shoot all day without wiping the bores and the 50th shot loads as easily as the 2nd. With a tight load such as I use each time a prb is seated it pushes the previous shots fouling down to the powder charge. This leaves only one shots worth of fouling in the bore which gets cleaned as the next shot is seated. Smoothing/polishing the barrel crown is absolutely necessary. Patches are usually torn when they are first started in the muzzle. But most importantly, these loads are safely and easily seated with the wooden underbarrel rod. I shoot my own cast .490" ball. The hunting powder charge used is 70 grains of 3F; this load is very accurate out to 100 yards.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello brewer12345,

Back in the day, when eyes were still able to see the targets, I shot plenty of round ball range shooting. I had two rifles which I used, a Thompson Center Hawken and a CVA Frontier Rifle. Both were 28" barrels in 50 caliber, the Thompson had 1/48 twist and the CVA had 1/66 twist. I could always shoot better targets with the CVA. If you want a round ball tack driver, get a slower twist barrel.

AntiqueSledMan.

[jimb16]

OK, getting ready for the flames and putting on my asbestos suit....Try a thinner patch! I know this goes against what everyone else recommends, but.... I have a .50 cal Hatfield that loves a 75 grain charge of FFF. If I use a tight patch, I can't keep the shots on a standard 100 yard target at 50 yards. BUT! If I use a fairly loose fitting patch that requires practically no effort to push it down the barrel, it will hold 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards off sandbags all day long! This is the only BP firearm that I've ever had that acted that way, but that is what it wants! Every firearm is a rule unto itself. You never know what it wants until you find it!

[brewer12345]

Honestly, at this point I will just pick up a slow twist barrel as budget permits. I have my hunting loads locked down for the impending season and after that I can just take my time getting a barrel and fooling around with various combinations. Maybe I will even get it together and try out the vintage peep the rifle came with to make it a real target shooter.

[megasupermagnum]

Honestly, at this point I will just pick up a slow twist barrel as budget permits. I have my hunting loads locked down for the impending season and after that I can just take my time getting a barrel and fooling around with various combinations. Maybe I will even get it together and try out the vintage peep the rifle came with to make it a real target shooter.

I can't blame you, I gave up myself as I was looking for even more accuracy. I was able to get consistent 2" groups at 50 yards though, so it is doable. It does seem 3" at 100 yards is too tall an order for a Thompson center with a round ball. It kind of makes me wish I had bought one of the cheaper rusty 50 caliber Renegades, and had the barrel rebored to a slow twist 54 caliber. The only drop in Green mountain barrels they make anymore are 15/16" flats.

[pwc]

How do you polish the crown? Brass / lead ball and valve grinding compound?

[RU shooter]

OK, getting ready for the flames and putting on my asbestos suit....Try a thinner patch! I know this goes against what everyone else recommends, but.... I have a .50 cal Hatfield that loves a 75 grain charge of FFF. If I use a tight patch, I can't keep the shots on a standard 100 yard target at 50 yards. BUT! If I use a fairly loose fitting patch that requires practically no effort to push it down the barrel, it will hold 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards off sandbags all day long! This is the only BP firearm that I've ever had that acted that way, but that is what it wants! Every firearm is a rule unto itself. You never know what it wants until you find it!
I had a 45 cal Green Mountian barrel that was that same way shot a lot better with thinner patch than the standard .018 I normally use . A .010 patch shot the best

[indian joe]

I had a 45 cal Green Mountian barrel that was that same way shot a lot better with thinner patch than the standard .018 I normally use . A .010 patch shot the best

Always go thinner patch with shaller rifling ------ I reckon this project got slung in the too hard basket way too easy -- unless the rifling is obviously stuffed or the crown or some thing - that thing should shoot a ball fine - just cant load it as hard because of the twist is all.

[shortlegs]

I am using a .010 patch and a.530 ball over 65 grs of 3f and getting touching shot at 50 and 4" groups at 100.
Ballistol (25%)and water(75%) for cleaning, bore butter for lube. Thumb pushing ball in barrel and ramrod to seat, no short starter needed.

[shortlegs]

A buddy of mine had trouble with balls and went to mini ball with great results.