ENCO pin gauges...Cool!!

[FN in MT]

Read the Mike Venturino article in the last HANDLOADER mag about using pin gauges to measure revolver throats. So spent the seventy bucks on the gauges. Two days later a HEAVY box arrives via the brown truck. The gauges originally started out in China. hence the reasonable price.

The gauges from .251" to .500" are individually wrapped in thin Chinese rice paper soaked in some UNKNOWN oil or grease of some sort. Whatever it is it did make me itch !?!? I miked and measured with my dial calipers and the several I checked seemed to be nuts ON.

Anyway there were a few "Ah HAA" !! moments. An older S&W 25-2 .45 acp/.45 AR revolver which has NEVER really shot well, had four throats that were .455" and two at .456". Ah HAA!!! No wonder my .4515 185 gr FMJ tgt loads never shot very well! But it DID shoot 250 gr .455" .45 Colt slugs pretty well in the Auto Rim loads. Need to slug it's barrel and see where that's at.

My three S&W .45 Colts one a 5" 25-7 , another a 4" 625-3 and the other a PC 625 Light Weight Hunter in 6".......ALL shoot very well. All three measured a very consistent 451".

My Freedom Arms M-83 6" is the Champion in the accuracy Dept. It's five holes all measured .452". Same for the six holes on my USFA SAA .452".

An interesting hour down in the loading room. Now I know what size STAR dies I need to order for the .45's.

The JOYS of being borderline OCD and Anal Compulsive.:-P

FN in MT

[crabo]

What's the part number?

[MtGun44]

I think if you will check, I and numerous others have recommended this
source and these pins for many months here. If you use the search
function, I think I posted a link to the pins a while back.

I'm not sure the Mike didn't get the info from this site. He reads this
stuff sometimes, so maybe he'll weigh in on this.

Bill

[nicholst55]

I had a similar experience when I gaged the throats on my M25-5 S&W; four went .456' and two went .457"! No wonder it 'shotguns' .452" cast boolits! It shoots .454" boolits a bit better, but not enough to write home about.

If only it would chamber .458" boolits, I'd be in business!

[crabo]

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=22486126&PMAKA=SA616-8131

On sale also

[xr650]

You can use pin gages when you open up a size die also.

[Tom Herman]

Thanks for bringing this to the attention of those that don't know about it. I read the article and leapt to the computer and immediately bought a set of gauges.
They have already paid for themselves. The Rugers are *****'ed with inconsistent throats running .451-.452, while my older .45 LC's run up to .455".
The Webley Mark VI throats run about .449", which doesn't help much when I run the .455" rounds through it.
My S & W model 624 throats at .432" but is consistent.
I wonder what kind of a rush Enco had on the gauges. I can only imagine they got swamped with orders.

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[fourarmed]

Just goes to show that we are getting a lot of new members here, and there is so much stuff discussed that important threads disappear quickly in the mists of time. I hesitate to suggest another sticky, since there are getting to be enough of them that they get overlooked, too. The pin gauges are definitely one of the most important, IMO. Another use where they are much better than a caliper: measuring expanded and sized case mouths.

[FN in MT]

MtGun44,

To give credit where credit is due....Thank You.

FN in MT

[MtGun44]

Very welcome, but I got it from Brian Pearce and from some other
folks here. I was just providing the Enco link for our folks.
I like Venturino's stuff and he gets the info out to a whole bunch
more folks than we do, so it is great to have him 'listening in'. I
have learned a whole lot from his articles over the years, and
even more from this wonderful site.

Bill

[unclebill]

now I want some!

[missionary5155]

It seems to me 6 cast boolits tapped through 6 cylinders can reveal the same info... But then I also understand the NEED for a new tool.

[Mike Venturino]

Sorry, but I didn't discover the Enco pin gauges from this website. Actually I had my set before I discover this website.

I knew such things existed but didn't know where to find them and mentioned that in a Handloader Magazine column. A reader sent me a page from an Enco catalog and the rest "is history."

I'm glad that column helped spread the word.
Mike V.

[leftiye]

Yup, and they's even cheaper on evilbay.

[lathesmith]

I've always enjoyed reading Mr. Venturino's articles, and I have some that I occasionally re-read from 'way back. Being from the "show-me" state, I have always appreciated his practical approach of field-testing ideas rather than just passing stuff on without scrutiny.

As for Pin gauges, I can't say for sure where I was first introduced to them, but I can say for sure that they are indispensable for making sizer dies and other precision measuring. Any serious and even not-so-serious shooter should have a set. They have become so cheap as to be in the category of "no excuse to be without". Like other small investments they will pay dividends far beyond their initial cost.
lathesmith

[yondering]

They have already paid for themselves. The Rugers are *****'ed with inconsistent throats running .451-.452, while my older .45 LC's run up to .455".
The Webley Mark VI throats run about .449", which doesn't help much when I run the .455" rounds through it.

-Tom

Tom, those Rugers aren't "*****'ed" by any means. The tight throats can be opened up to whatever diameter you need; that is a good thing. I bought a 29/64" (.453") reamer from enco to open up the throats on my Rugers. This is about perfect for the .452" bore. I cut the head off a fired 45 Colt case, and used the remaining tube as a sleeve guide on the reamer, and went in from the chamber end. It cut nice and straight with no chatter.
Where are you in the northwest? You are welcome to come use my reamer. Shoot me a PM if you want.

[376Steyr]

I got my set from Grizzly Industrial Supply for about the same price. Here's the link:

http://www.grizzlyindustrial.com/products/Steel-Plug-Gauge-Set-250-pc-Minus/G9794

Like the posters above, there were all sorts of surprises waiting for me when I started measuring cylinder throats, like the .38 Special with .354 throats, and the .44 Special at .427

[Patrick L]

I posted about 4 weeks ago that I too was inspired by Mike Venturino's recent article to get a set of these ENCO gauges.

I found that my 1955 Target S&W .45 ACP also has throats approaching .456/.457 in diameter. All these years I've been shooting .452 bullets because "that's what size you're supposed to use." With .452 bullets,off a rest at 25 yards it does about like this :

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Bullets/GunStuff053.jpg

The high flyer is my fault. This is about as well as I can shoot.

With unsized bullets running about .454 (the biggest I had,) it did no better. I stopped worrying about it.

[Cayoot]

I have my new set also. This has proven something that I suspected...my Ruger Blackhawk in .41 mag has 2 tight cylinder throats.

I have noticed that I usually have 2 fliers when I shoot. So I'm wondering about opening these throats up.

I have used a reamer to open the cylinder holes on my .45 Colt Blackhawk, and that worked nicely.

Does anybody know if a similar reamer can be located for the .41 mag?

[TAWILDCATT]

harbor tool is another great place.they have a mini cut off saw $29 to cut long necks.uses a 2" blade:coffee:[smilie=1:

[vonfatman]

When I called the customer service person said, "Oh, the set from Handloader Magazine"

I hope they bought Mike his set! He sure did sell a bunch of these for Enco. I even got them on sale...shipping included: $66.44
I can handle a discount!:-D

I can't wait to get mine. I have to wait for Christmas...it's my gift from my wife!

Bob

[Houndog]

Any of the industrial tool supply houses have chucking reamers in .001 size increments. You can get whatever you need. They also have the pin guages, but at a MUCH higher cost, and quality than ENCO or Grizzly. I use MSC for my precision tooling needs and they have a very good website.

[deltaenterprizes]

MSC an Enco are the same company. A set of small hole guages will give the same info are a lot cheaper and take up less space. A dial caliper can be off a couple of thousandths use a real micrometer, there is a big difference between the two.

[JSnover]

That's true. If you shop the MSC catalog you can get the top shelf equipmet or the cheaper versions that show up in the Enco catalogs. It really depends on how you like to measure your holes. A smal holle gage set plus a micrometer; you're pretty near the cost of a set of pin gages. On the other hand, there's a lot of things you can't measure if all you have are pins.

[Houndog]

What both the above posters said are true. ENCO and MSC are branches of the same company, but ENCO caters to the ametur machinist/home shop market and MSC caters to the job shop/industrial side of things. MSC has far better cutting tools, a much better selection of tools, and the price difference reflects it.

If you are skilled with precision measuring tools, a small hole guage set and an outside micrometer will give just as good and just as consistant measurments as a pin guage set, but if you don't use this type of tool very often you would probably come closer to being correct with the pin guage set. I own and use both regularly, but my pin guage set is made by Starrett and is in smaller steps than .001.

[Three44s]

Note to the mods:

Someone mentioned a "sticky" ....... someone else thought better of it ........ too many stickies already .......

What about an articles section like Surplus rifle .com???

Just my .02 ...........

Three 44s

[redbear705]

I have my new set also. This has proven something that I suspected...my Ruger Blackhawk in .41 mag has 2 tight cylinder throats.

I have noticed that I usually have 2 fliers when I shoot. So I'm wondering about opening these throats up.

I have used a reamer to open the cylinder holes on my .45 Colt Blackhawk, and that worked nicely.

Does anybody know if a similar reamer can be located for the .41 mag?

Call or go here.....they do all kinds of reamers for the shooting folks....http://www.mansonreamers.com/contact%20us.html

JR

[45nut]

Note to the mods:

Someone mentioned a "sticky" ....... someone else thought better of it ........ too many stickies already .......

What about an articles section like Surplus rifle .com???

Just my .02 ...........

Three 44s

We have the member articles both here and at castpics, CB the forum and castpics are a marriage of content.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/cmps_index.php?page=Articles

http://www.castpics.net/articles.htm

Those links AND the Classics and Stickies area include vast amounts of information. :cbpour:

[quasi]

the first mention of using pin gages for measuring revolver throats that I remember seeing was by Ross Siefried. I can't remember if it was in G+A or Handloader.

Now that Barnsnes has been fired from Wolfe publishing, as was Siefried before him, I have canceled my subscription.

[alamogunr]

Now that Barnsnes has been fired from Wolfe publishing, as was Siefried before him, I have canceled my subscription.

When did that happen??

[quasi]

I believe it was in Aug. or Sept. I saw a post by John himself (mule deer) on the 24 hour campfire website, in the "Ask the gunwriters" forum.

[PatMarlin]

Just bought 2 sets of pin gages up to .500 from Grizzly. The price was awy cheaper than Enco, even with shipping.

[John D]

Does Grizzly have a website? I'd like to get a set!

[PatMarlin]

Here ya go JD...

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Steel-Plug-Gauge-Set-190-pc-Plus/G9791

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Steel-Plug-Gauge-Set-250-pc-Minus/G9794

[alamogunr]

Those are good prices on the gages. I got mine for about half that on ebay because I took a chance that the few that were missing would not be needed for firearms use. I lucked out and the missing pins were not ones that were close to bore or throat sizes of common cartridges. If anyone decides to try this, ask the seller if he will tell you which pins are missing. I didn't do that and just got lucky.
John

[alamogunr]

I just looked at pin gages on ebay. If I were looking to buy today, I would pass on the ebay offerings. Overpriced and no guarantees.
John

[PatMarlin]

I bought both minus sets. I just noticed one of the links I posted was a plus set.

Have to say one thing a globalized import export, industries, it has allowed us to buy decent tooling at an affordable price.

Now if we could just get American production back with the best quality at a reasonable price.

Never happen.

[John D]

PatMarlin:

Thanks for the link. I think i'm about to get a set!

[TCLouis]

A set of four and it does require a bit of "feel" and a mic, but seems to cover all the range I need.

Sometimes it seems to reveal less than round throats also!

[Willbird]

A gage pin is the only proper way to measure a hole. The ones who have surfed the links already saw this, but I will explain it anyway, they come in + and - as well as wholes and halfs. The old timers say it takes .0002 for a pin to be able to actually enter a hole, so a .500 hole will only accept a .4998 pin.

So if a .250- pin goes in and a .250 plus does not you have a real grasp on the true whole size, the minus pins are -.0002, and the plus are +.0002....to really measure to the .0001 you need all 4 sets sometimes, the +- and the half sizes too. If your print calls for .250 to .2505 tolerance a .250+ pin should go in and a .2505- pin should not fall in, and a .2505+ should not go in at all. I used to produce parts with that kind of tolerance on holes that were only .100" deep darn near every day, and a gage pin is about the only way to measure them accurately.

Another use for them is measuring case wall thickness if you are turning case necks, if you get one that just slides in you can mike the cast neck, thus clamping it tight on the pin, subtract the pin size and divide by 2...and thus measure your case wall thickness with great precision, and without having to seat a bullet.

They came in handy as a honcho on a group buy too when the molds cast on the small size, or rarely on the large size...it gives you more ammo to wrangle with lee if you can state that the cavity itself is smaller than the drawing spec for the bullet itself.

I used to work in a shop that hat probably a dozen complete library sets of wholes and halfs from wee up to 1"....all the good vermont pins.

They are not terribly expensive to replace a single one if you lose it, OR if you cut it down to make into a dowel pin...then you just used a chinee one to make a dowel or other pin and you replaced it with a vermont pin.

[PatMarlin]

That's why I bought the pins Bill is the go- no go.

Even with just the minus set, you have that, though not as precise as you explain.

Some day I may get the plus sets, but maybe I won't ever need them for what I will be doing.

Thanks for going into detail on these pins.

[Willbird]

I agree the minus pins give the most utility, and that is all I have of my own here at home.

Bill

[edlmann]

I have my new set also. This has proven something that I suspected...my Ruger Blackhawk in .41 mag has 2 tight cylinder throats.
I have noticed that I usually have 2 fliers when I shoot. So I'm wondering about opening these throats up.
I have used a reamer to open the cylinder holes on my .45 Colt Blackhawk, and that worked nicely.
Does anybody know if a similar reamer can be located for the .41 mag?

Apparently, Manson Reamers (see page 8) (http://www.mansonreamers.com/January%202008%20Catalog.pdf) does not make one.

However, Cylindersmith (http://www.cylindersmith.com/What-calibers.html) lists .41 mag as one of the calibers he does.

Clymer (http://www.clymertool.com/welcome.html) does not seem to offer throating reamers.

Nor does Pacific Tool & Gauge. (http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/products/reamers/necknthroat.htm#throat)

If you have only one .41 Mag, Cylinder Smith's $39 price (http://www.cylindersmith.com/Price.html), shipped, seems pretty reasonable.

[edlmann]

. . . thin Chinese rice paper soaked in some UNKNOWN oil or grease of some sort. Whatever it is it did make me itch !?!?

Had bamboo in my grandmother's yard growing up. What was sold as novelty itching powder looked exactly like bamboo seeds/pollen.