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EDG
08-14-2019, 11:48 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GEb9r8aqVQ

1hole
08-14-2019, 12:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GEb9r8aqVQ

Okay. I didn't know that was ever a question! ;)

EDG
08-14-2019, 12:52 PM
It was never a question unless you have a very simple outlook and can only think within the limits of your religious brainwashing.

The movie illustrates a fact.
WWII illustrated it even more. If god is really in control why did he permit the death and the horrors of the war to be inflicted on hundreds of millions of innocent people. Yeah sure Hitler, the Nazis, the Japanese militarists and Stalin's Soviet Union committed colossal crimes. But what about the other innocents young and old alike that suffered? There was no justice dealt to mankind by any loving god.
My dad as a 17 year old did nothing that deserved putting a flame thrower in his hands to burn other teenagers with.



Okay. I didn't know that was ever a question! ;)

dverna
08-14-2019, 12:55 PM
Probably better posted in the Pit than here...IMHO.

dannyd
08-14-2019, 01:05 PM
It was never a question unless you have a very simple outlook and can only think within the limits of your religious brainwashing.

The movie illustrates a fact.
WWII illustrated it even more. If god is really in control why did he permit the death and the horrors of the war to be inflicted on hundreds of millions of innocent people. Yeah sure Hitler, the Nazis, the Japanese militarists and Stalin's Soviet Union committed colossal crimes. But what about the other innocents young and old alike that suffered? There was no justice dealt to mankind by any loving god.
My dad as a 17 year old did nothing that deserved putting a flame thrower in his hands to burn other teenagers with.

All these things happen because of the free will of man. If you Dad like Myself was there at 17 he put himself there. People call us volunteers.

EDG
08-14-2019, 01:10 PM
Free will ? That is not a good argument. That argument does not make any sense at all.
Every non-believer on the planet has the same free will even if he was born in the Americans before 1492.
Dogs and cats have free will as does every bird, reptile, insect and fish. No - free will is just a life line you guys use when you have nothing left.

Actually you are very wrong about my dad. Someone else put him there.
He never volunteered for a flame thrower or to burn other humans alive.



All these things happen because of the free will of man. If you Dad like Myself was there at 17 he put himself there. People call us volunteers.

Sig556r
08-14-2019, 01:13 PM
Probably better posted in the Pit than here...IMHO.

Ditto ^^^

EDG
08-14-2019, 01:19 PM
I disagree. It is at least as germane as any other comment about those who do not believe in your imaginary friend in the heavens.


Probably better posted in the Pit than here...IMHO.

Blackwater
08-14-2019, 01:45 PM
EDG, if you think GOD caused those problems you enumerate, and many more, then you have some thinking left undone. Did not God and Christ tell us that the wages of sin is death? It's not God who causes these things. It's MAN's haughty and insolent spirit, and his failure to follow reason and logic, and all the outlines left by a loving Savior.

If you want to blame it all on God, you have the freedom to do that, but there's a reason most don't believe such. It's man's fault, and God merely lets him have his way sometimes. It's like a good parent allowing a child to proceed with a relatively dangerous action, because the child seemingly can't be dissuaded from it, so the child can learn the lesson the hard way. All of us have to learn the hard way sometimes in our lives, but making it a standard policy for our lives is rather foolish, isn't it?

dannyd
08-14-2019, 02:11 PM
Free will ? That is not a good argument. That argument does not make any sense at all.
Every non-believer on the planet has the same free will even if he was born in the Americans before 1492.
Dogs and cats have free will as does every bird, reptile, insect and fish. No - free will is just a life line you guys use when you have nothing left.

Actually you are very wrong about my dad. Someone else put him there.
He never volunteered for a flame thrower or to burn other humans alive.

Other people may put the flame thrower in his had, but they didn't draft 17 year olds.

EDG
08-14-2019, 02:56 PM
But according to law at 17 he was not considered an adult.
He was deemed by others old enough to kill people and to be killed but he was not old enough to vote.

You do not get so many brownie points if you are a kid since by definition you may not be responsible for what you do.


Other people may put the flame thrower in his had, but they didn't draft 17 year olds.

dannyd
08-14-2019, 03:26 PM
But according to law at 17 he was not considered an adult.
He was deemed by others old enough to kill people and to be killed but he was not old enough to vote.

You do not get so many brownie points if you are a kid since by definition you may not be responsible for what you do.

If you are in the military at 17 them your an adult. Been there done that, your responsible for all your actions and you can't blame others. You sound like a Baby Boomer it's everyone else's falt. That would explain your hang up about God.

EDG
08-14-2019, 03:30 PM
Oh not at all bubba. You make an argument that you are an adult at 17 yet the law says you are not.
What I said flew right over your head. Just because you volunteered at 17 did not make you special in the eyes of the law. You do not get extra points for that. When you volunteered you were still a 17 year old who was in my dad's words "young and stupid". He fought the Japanese nearly 2.5 years (Guadalcanal, Tarawa and Saipan), was nearly killed several times, was wounded and sent home permanently disabled. He was back in high school in 1945. He was not yet 21 and he was still not old enough to vote or buy beer.
That much is clear in black and white. It is very apparent that you have no real argument at all.
You cannot even grasp the contradiction of being commanded to kill someone yet you do not have the right to vote....give us a break




If you are in the military at 17 them your an adult. Been there done that, your responsible for all your actions and you can't blame others. You sound like a Baby Boomer it's everyone else's falt. That would explain your hang up about God.

Petrol & Powder
08-14-2019, 06:43 PM
I'm not going to get into the religion aspect of this BUT, the movie "Breaker Morant" is one of my favorite movies.

It's based on a true story and while not completely accurate in a historical sense, it's still a great story.

But here's the REAL kicker - How many people have seen "A Few Good Men" and realized that movie is almost an exact remake of Breaker Morant set about 85 years later ?

dannyd
08-14-2019, 06:58 PM
Oh not at all bubba. You make an argument that you are an adult at 17 yet the law says you are not.
What I said flew right over your head. Just because you volunteered at 17 did not make you special in the eyes of the law. You do not get extra points for that. When you volunteered you were still a 17 year old who was in my dad's words "young and stupid". He fought the Japanese nearly 2.5 years (Guadalcanal, Tarawa and Saipan), was nearly killed several times, was wounded and sent home permanently disabled. He was back in high school in 1945. He was not yet 21 and he was still not old enough to vote or buy beer.
That much is clear in black and white. It is very apparent that you have no real argument at all.
You cannot even grasp the contradiction of being commanded to kill someone yet you do not have the right to vote....give us a break

How did you do in the military? Were you drafted or did you volunteer?

JimB..
08-14-2019, 09:50 PM
EDG, who said that God is in control? If he/she was, then there wouldn’t be evil, and as you know there is plenty of evil. God has a plan, I’ve found it best to listen quietly and try to stay as close to plan as possible, not to please or appease a magic wizard in the sky, but because it makes my life more enjoyable in the long term. Of course I screw it up all the time, it’s part of being human. Heck, here are days when I wonder if my entire part in his plan is to be the bad example for someone else, to be the guy that screws up and pays the price, allowing others to learn from my mistakes. I’ve generally decided that we each take turns in that role.

FWIW, I think that my uncle had a story similar to your fathers, although the details were never known except from investigations undertaken after he died. He came home from the war, the only survivor of four brothers that served in europe and africa, and he’d done and seen terrible things. (the only brother that didn’t serve had lost a lung in childhood) Physically he was fine, but he lived in a room that he rented in a small house from the day he returned till the day he died. He had no children which isn’t surprising because he did not speak. Nobody ever knew what was in his head or what it was that he couldn’t say. He worked menial jobs and lived a simple life, almost certainly tormented every hour of every day by the memories of what he’d done and what he’d seen, heard, felt, and even smelled.

Life isn’t fair, and I get that you’re angry about what your father did and what was asked of him, but neither that nor the evil that caused those terrible decisions to be forced upon him at a young age is evidence that God does not exist.

I am no evangelist, I am not well spoken, and I frankly have little concern over what you or anyone else chooses to believe. I think that a person’s beliefs are something that they need to discover on their own. I wish you and your father all the best on your paths and only suggest that you try not to evaluate things looking through a fog of anger.

dverna
08-14-2019, 10:58 PM
Good post JimB

Black Jaque Janaviac
08-15-2019, 08:26 AM
I am still trying to make sense of the OP. A 7 minute excerpt of a movie I never saw?

Sig556r
08-15-2019, 08:31 AM
EDG, who said that God is in control? If he/she was, then there wouldn’t be evil, and as you know there is plenty of evil. God has a plan, I’ve found it best to listen quietly and try to stay as close to plan as possible, not to please or appease a magic wizard in the sky, but because it makes my life more enjoyable in the long term. Of course I screw it up all the time, it’s part of being human. Heck, here are days when I wonder if my entire part in his plan is to be the bad example for someone else, to be the guy that screws up and pays the price, allowing others to learn from my mistakes. I’ve generally decided that we each take turns in that role.

FWIW, I think that my uncle had a story similar to your fathers, although the details were never known except from investigations undertaken after he died. He came home from the war, the only survivor of four brothers that served in europe and africa, and he’d done and seen terrible things. (the only brother that didn’t serve had lost a lung in childhood) Physically he was fine, but he lived in a room that he rented in a small house from the day he returned till the day he died. He had no children which isn’t surprising because he did not speak. Nobody ever knew what was in his head or what it was that he couldn’t say. He worked menial jobs and lived a simple life, almost certainly tormented every hour of every day by the memories of what he’d done and what he’d seen, heard, felt, and even smelled.

Life isn’t fair, and I get that you’re angry about what your father did and what was asked of him, but neither that nor the evil that caused those terrible decisions to be forced upon him at a young age is evidence that God does not exist.

I am no evangelist, I am not well spoken, and I frankly have little concern over what you or anyone else chooses to believe. I think that a person’s beliefs are something that they need to discover on their own. I wish you and your father all the best on your paths and only suggest that you try not to evaluate things looking through a fog of anger.

Nice viewpoint...

1hole
08-15-2019, 11:30 AM
It was never a question unless you have a very simple outlook and can only think within the limits of your religious brainwashing.....

WWII illustrated it even more. If god is really in control why did he permit the death and the horrors of the war to be inflicted on hundreds of millions of innocent people. Yeah sure Hitler, the Nazis, the Japanese militarists and Stalin's Soviet Union committed colossal crimes. But what about the other innocents young and old alike that suffered? There was no justice dealt to mankind by any loving god.

So you would have us believe you think (?) the evils of men from all corners of the world are directly from the hands of a cold and helpless Christian God? Not hardly.


My dad as a 17 year old did nothing that deserved putting a flame thrower in his hands to burn other teenagers with.

You speak - again - looking at the world backwards and upside down while safely snuggled in the modern comforts of your current warm home. I say your father did what he and millions of others felt was right at the time with the information he had. In that, I hate it was required but I'm proud of him and all those who served with him. And you can be sure that God hasn't yet done all he will do in his response.

Your father - and millions of other "kids" like him, gallantly rose to oppose murderous world wide tyranny that was rampantly killing millions of other kids and babies and women and the old, sick and injured. Of course that demanded your father use that flame thrower to do what he could to both protect his comrades from the other sides 17 yr. olds and to stop the spread of evil.

So, today the moral question for you and your father, and without too much dreamy ex post facto 'intellectual' musing and circular belly button contemplation, is NOT and cannot be, "How many kids did he kill with that flamethrower" but "How many kids (on both sides) did he save?"

If you want to sneer at God about the truly awful things governments have called on 17 year old men to do in military service, remember that a lot of us served to make it possible for you and others of your mindset to sneer at your leisure; "You're welcome."

But ... do you think this the best forum for your detached point of view?

UKShootist
08-15-2019, 12:37 PM
But according to law at 17 he was not considered an adult.
He was deemed by others old enough to kill people and to be killed but he was not old enough to vote.

You do not get so many brownie points if you are a kid since by definition you may not be responsible for what you do.

You do if you're Jewish and therefore reach the age of majority at 13, 12 if you're a girl. Not that this is necessarily any recommendation. It does seem preposterous though that a single day can suddenly bring adulthood.

I'm reminded of a police officer who late one evening, about half past eleven, checked out a car parked on a car park. In the drivers seat was a young man chewing gum and reading a magazine. In the back was a young girl sat knitting. The police officer thought this a bit suspicious and asked the girl how old she was. She looked at her watch and said "I'll be sixteen in about half an hour." (Sixteen is the age of consent in the UK)

UKShootist
08-15-2019, 12:39 PM
Imagine if God had woke up one morning and thought to himself "I'll make some humans. I wonder what they'll do if I just leave them to get on with things. Could be interesting to watch."

Petrol & Powder
08-15-2019, 05:53 PM
I am still trying to make sense of the OP. A 7 minute excerpt of a movie I never saw?

It's a clip from near the end of "Breaker Morant". It's a good movie and pretty much provides the entire plot for the later movie "A few Good Men".

I'm not sure why the OP choose that clip but the movie deals with the execution of Harry "Breaker" Morant in the second Boer War in South Africa in 1902. One of the many memorable lines is: "We caught them and we shot them under rule Three O Three" referring to the .303 Cartridge used by the British.

Blackwater
08-16-2019, 03:44 PM
Oh not at all bubba. You make an argument that you are an adult at 17 yet the law says you are not.
What I said flew right over your head. Just because you volunteered at 17 did not make you special in the eyes of the law. You do not get extra points for that. When you volunteered you were still a 17 year old who was in my dad's words "young and stupid". He fought the Japanese nearly 2.5 years (Guadalcanal, Tarawa and Saipan), was nearly killed several times, was wounded and sent home permanently disabled. He was back in high school in 1945. He was not yet 21 and he was still not old enough to vote or buy beer.
That much is clear in black and white. It is very apparent that you have no real argument at all.
You cannot even grasp the contradiction of being commanded to kill someone yet you do not have the right to vote....give us a break

What in the world does the question of whether a man's an adult at 17 or not, have to do with a discussion that's SUPPOSED to be about faith????

Blackwater
08-16-2019, 03:49 PM
EDG, who said that God is in control? If he/she was, then there wouldn’t be evil, and as you know there is plenty of evil. God has a plan, I’ve found it best to listen quietly and try to stay as close to plan as possible, not to please or appease a magic wizard in the sky, but because it makes my life more enjoyable in the long term. Of course I screw it up all the time, it’s part of being human. Heck, here are days when I wonder if my entire part in his plan is to be the bad example for someone else, to be the guy that screws up and pays the price, allowing others to learn from my mistakes. I’ve generally decided that we each take turns in that role.

FWIW, I think that my uncle had a story similar to your fathers, although the details were never known except from investigations undertaken after he died. He came home from the war, the only survivor of four brothers that served in europe and africa, and he’d done and seen terrible things. (the only brother that didn’t serve had lost a lung in childhood) Physically he was fine, but he lived in a room that he rented in a small house from the day he returned till the day he died. He had no children which isn’t surprising because he did not speak. Nobody ever knew what was in his head or what it was that he couldn’t say. He worked menial jobs and lived a simple life, almost certainly tormented every hour of every day by the memories of what he’d done and what he’d seen, heard, felt, and even smelled.

Life isn’t fair, and I get that you’re angry about what your father did and what was asked of him, but neither that nor the evil that caused those terrible decisions to be forced upon him at a young age is evidence that God does not exist.

I am no evangelist, I am not well spoken, and I frankly have little concern over what you or anyone else chooses to believe. I think that a person’s beliefs are something that they need to discover on their own. I wish you and your father all the best on your paths and only suggest that you try not to evaluate things looking through a fog of anger.

What is it that makes you think that if God were God, He'd eliminate all evil from our realm???? If that was what He wanted, wouldn't He just have made us all appear in Heaven? Couldn't He then have dispensed with the whole Creation thing? Wouldn't that have been a lot less trouble???

God allows evil in this world, and I believe it's due to Lucifer and his minions' rebellion, that made them have to be cast out of Heaven. When God created the universe, and then earth and then us, He could well have remembered that previous rebellion, and allowed evil in our world to see who'd follow evil, and who'd follow Him, and thereby, know who to allow into Heaven and who would only stop it from being a true Heaven. How's that for an explanation, sir? Do you require more?

Blackwater
08-16-2019, 03:55 PM
Imagine if God had woke up one morning and thought to himself "I'll make some humans. I wonder what they'll do if I just leave them to get on with things. Could be interesting to watch."

God is not whimsical. He always has REASONS for whatever He does. Whether or not we here can perceive and figure those reasons out is quite another question. And He does NOT play tricks on us, or play with us. He is always serious, loving, kind, wise and just. What kind of god do you imagine???

dtknowles
08-16-2019, 09:07 PM
God is not whimsical. He always has REASONS for whatever He does. Whether or not we here can perceive and figure those reasons out is quite another question. And He does NOT play tricks on us, or play with us. He is always serious, loving, kind, wise and just. What kind of god do you imagine???

You will have accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking. We can believe that God cares very little about humans and doubt he feels much need to provide many of us with a life after death. Certainly not just for believing Jesus is Christ the Savior.

Tim

dannyd
08-16-2019, 09:13 PM
You will have accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking. We can believe that God cares very little about humans and doubt he feels much need to provide many of us with a life after death. Certainly not just for believing Jesus is Christ the Savior.

Tim

That's why God made salvation so easy because he knew educated man would probably never willing accept it. But Biblical that all you have to do.

wv109323
08-16-2019, 10:17 PM
EDG
God allows us to be who we want to be. Just as I base my beliefs on what I am exposed to,so are you. If God eliminated all evil he would slap me and you sideways everytime we had an evil thought. God allows us to act the way we want to act. God describes how he wants us to act in his word to us-the Bible.
How do you expect God to guide the life of Hilter and other murderers but you are apparentely are not in perfect obedience to his plan? God would need to guide everyones life every moment of every day to prevent all evil. He does not and allows us freewill until he decides to bring his judgement on mankind.
The emperor of Japan thought he was God and persauded men that death before surrender was honorable. Thus many of his soldiers would not surrender and fought to the death or commited suicide.
What our military had to do to stop the Japanese was horrific but they wanted to take over a large part of the world and deprive millions of their freedom.

JimB..
08-17-2019, 06:37 AM
What is it that makes you think that if God were God, He'd eliminate all evil from our realm???? If that was what He wanted, wouldn't He just have made us all appear in Heaven? Couldn't He then have dispensed with the whole Creation thing? Wouldn't that have been a lot less trouble???

God allows evil in this world, and I believe it's due to Lucifer and his minions' rebellion, that made them have to be cast out of Heaven. When God created the universe, and then earth and then us, He could well have remembered that previous rebellion, and allowed evil in our world to see who'd follow evil, and who'd follow Him, and thereby, know who to allow into Heaven and who would only stop it from being a true Heaven. How's that for an explanation, sir? Do you require more?

I don’t find your assumptions about God, your reasoning or your beliefs about salvation compelling, but I understand what you’re saying and do not require more. As I said, I am neither a biblical scholar nor evangelist, I feel no compulsion whatsoever to try to convince you of anything. My post was intended to help the OP, not spark a debate about beliefs.

EDG
08-19-2019, 11:11 AM
So your god is the god of the Epicurean Paradox?
Is that what you are saying? You are saying your omnipotent god is too lazy to make his sheep behave?

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing

Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing

Then whence cometh evil.

If He is neither able nor willing

Then why call Him God?

No I cannot be in obedience - I do not recognize your god exists.
Your entire train of logic makes no sense. Apparently you think your god can sit on his haunches and do nothing for 2000 years or so after "publishing" the Bible - sort of like Pontius Pilate right?
Like I have said here before "free will" is just a red herring. It is a somewhat goofy concept since all humans regardless of their religion or lack there of have free will. But so do cats and dogs and every other creature with anything resembling a brain.




EDG
God allows us to be who we want to be. Just as I base my beliefs on what I am exposed to,so are you. If God eliminated all evil he would slap me and you sideways everytime we had an evil thought. God allows us to act the way we want to act. God describes how he wants us to act in his word to us-the Bible.
How do you expect God to guide the life of Hilter and other murderers but you are apparentely are not in perfect obedience to his plan? God would need to guide everyones life every moment of every day to prevent all evil. He does not and allows us freewill until he decides to bring his judgement on mankind.
The emperor of Japan thought he was God and persauded men that death before surrender was honorable. Thus many of his soldiers would not surrender and fought to the death or commited suicide.
What our military had to do to stop the Japanese was horrific but they wanted to take over a large part of the world and deprive millions of their freedom.

dannyd
08-19-2019, 11:59 AM
So your god is the god of the Epicurean Paradox?
Is that what you are saying? You are saying your omnipotent god is too lazy to make his sheep behave?

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing

Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing

Then whence cometh evil.

If He is neither able nor willing

Then why call Him God?

No I cannot be in obedience - I do not recognize your god exists.
Your entire train of logic makes no sense. Apparently you think your god can sit on his haunches and do nothing for 2000 years or so after "publishing" the Bible - sort of like Pontius Pilate right?
Like I have said here before "free will" is just a red herring. It is a somewhat goofy concept since all humans regardless of their religion or lack there of have free will. But so do cats and dogs and every other creature with anything resembling a brain.


Hang in there you may yet come to understand someday. It's so simple that most people have a hard time with salvation. Read the Book of John (KJB)

EDG
08-19-2019, 12:09 PM
Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?


Hang in there you may yet come to understand someday. It's so simple that most people have a hard time with salvation. Read the Book of John (KJB)

dannyd
08-19-2019, 12:25 PM
Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?

If your dad was a WW2 veteran then your a Baby Boomer. We may be members of the Dumbest Generation in History. Just look at our Cell Phone adds on TV. If you don't like John then Try JOB (KJB) great book. You have to be getting long in the tooth just trying to help before Hospice Nurse calls your name. All you have to have is a repentant Heart. Like many Baby Boomer's you may be over thinking it.

JBinMN
08-19-2019, 01:38 PM
Some folks won't like that I am gonna call it like I am seeing it....

I don't see a "Deep Theological Discussion" topic here.

I see a "Here is my outlook, and you can't get me to change my mind, or look at other possibilities, so Nah nah Nah", topic.

I don't see why it is not in the Pit after the posts I have read from some here.

Perhaps I am pessimistic about this topic & why it is still going on.

It is an atheist, agnostic, or the like, who seems, IMO of course, to be trolling/baiting Christians for kicks, or something along those lines, and it sure seems that the OPs position is not likely to change based on the replies I have read.

I do not see an open mind or heart from the OP, leading me to believe that the OPs mind or heart will be changed or even wants to change by anything offered here.

It seems to be like the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." when it comes to things like this.

What, if anything, is getting accomplished here? ( <rhetorical)

I do applaud the efforts though, of the Christians who are surely trying to help. Even though I think it is sure appearing to be a waste of time. Sometimes trying to help does not work... The person who one is trying to help "needs to want" the help. I do not see that here...

So I guess I will just go get more :popcorn: & wait to see how long this lasts....

I am not gonna wait around to see any replies to this post in particular. I will just check back some time to see if the topic is still here & see what happens...

1hole
08-19-2019, 05:20 PM
Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?

ED, I love you man but I find the flood of snarky posts from you (and others like you) so foolish it's amusing.

You hold those who disagree with you as intellectually contemptible. You inject everything you can into your intellectual posts trying to impress all of us how really smart you are, knowing all the while that we disagree with your well stated smartness. Why in the world do you waste your valuable time almost feverishly striving to insult us meer mental midgets into submission?

Forgive me but I THINK if you were even nearly as brilliant as you presume, you would know you're spinning your wheels trying to smear us into silence. You don't seem to get that we Christians are happy and cranky ol' coots like you are not!

As much as we would like to, we don't have to prove a thing to you; we Christians know what we know and we know that you don't, okay? So, continue to post whatever you will but I have to wonder what mental games you're playing with yourself and what do you hope to accomplish with your constant stream of amusing teenage debate team put-downs? ;)

cas
08-19-2019, 05:35 PM
A 7 minute excerpt of a movie I never saw?

That's too bad.

jem102
08-21-2019, 07:26 PM
Some folks won't like that I am gonna call it like I am seeing it....

I don't see a "Deep Theological Discussion" topic here.

I see a "Here is my outlook, and you can't get me to change my mind, or look at other possibilities, so Nah nah Nah", topic.

I don't see why it is not in the Pit after the posts I have read from some here.

Perhaps I am pessimistic about this topic & why it is still going on.

It is an atheist, agnostic, or the like, who seems, IMO of course, to be trolling/baiting Christians for kicks, or something along those lines, and it sure seems that the OPs position is not likely to change based on the replies I have read.

I do not see an open mind or heart from the OP, leading me to believe that the OPs mind or heart will be changed or even wants to change by anything offered here.

It seems to be like the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." when it comes to things like this.

What, if anything, is getting accomplished here? ( <rhetorical)

I do applaud the efforts though, of the Christians who are surely trying to help. Even though I think it is sure appearing to be a waste of time. Sometimes trying to help does not work... The person who one is trying to help "needs to want" the help. I do not see that here...

So I guess I will just go get more :popcorn: & wait to see how long this lasts....

I am not gonna wait around to see any replies to this post in particular. I will just check back some time to see if the topic is still here & see what happens...

Exactly...he has no point other than creating discord...

UKShootist
08-21-2019, 07:54 PM
It is an atheist, agnostic, or the like, who seems, IMO of course, to be trolling/baiting Christians for kicks, or something along those lines, and it sure seems that the OPs position is not likely to change based on the replies I have read.


And there you illustrate perfectly the problem, at least for me. I am genuinely and deeply interested in religion. Not just Christianity. I am also interested in the concept of faith, which is something of mystery to me. The trouble seems to come, almost predictably, with the awkward questions and what seems to me, and many others I am sure, some utter illogicality of some of the faithful. As such I feel my curiosity is disposed of with contempt by people who really do not know the answers to my questions. They are inconvenient.

I have said elsewhere that I can accept that my beliefs in scientific subjects might be wrong because if they are proved to be wrong, that is called learning. I believe the difficulty for someone who has 'faith' which by definition has to lack solid evidence, is that challenges to their faith threatens their whole world. When you just believe, if your belief is overcome you whole world is damaged, so it is easier to ignore the challenge, to dismiss it as mischief, which saves having to seriously consider what must be an unpleasant possibility.

dtknowles
08-22-2019, 08:27 PM
What is it that makes you think that if God were God, He'd eliminate all evil from our realm???? If that was what He wanted, wouldn't He just have made us all appear in Heaven? Couldn't He then have dispensed with the whole Creation thing? Wouldn't that have been a lot less trouble???

God allows evil in this world, and I believe it's due to Lucifer and his minions' rebellion, that made them have to be cast out of Heaven. When God created the universe, and then earth and then us, He could well have remembered that previous rebellion, and allowed evil in our world to see who'd follow evil, and who'd follow Him, and thereby, know who to allow into Heaven and who would only stop it from being a true Heaven. How's that for an explanation, sir? Do you require more?

If God eliminated evil he would have to eliminate free will. There is no good without evil no love without hate no light without dark. Even God cannot move an immovable object.

Tim

Blackwater
08-26-2019, 06:47 PM
Imagine if God had woke up one morning and thought to himself "I'll make some humans. I wonder what they'll do if I just leave them to get on with things. Could be interesting to watch."

God does not amuse Himself by playing games with His Creations. But you obviously didn't know that.

Blackwater
08-26-2019, 06:51 PM
You will have accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking. We can believe that God cares very little about humans and doubt he feels much need to provide many of us with a life after death. Certainly not just for believing Jesus is Christ the Savior.

Tim

No, DT, it's not just "wishful thinking." But that certainly can't and won't stop you from seeing whatever you wish to see. You seem to wish for a "big daddy in the sky" kind of God, who will pamper you by giving you whatever you want. When we do that with our real children, we usually get spoiled brats as a result. Maybe God is just a tad smarter and more loving than you are????

Blackwater
08-26-2019, 07:07 PM
EDG: So your god is the god of the Epicurean Paradox?
Is that what you are saying? You are saying your omnipotent god is too lazy to make his sheep behave?

BW: What makes you think that it would be good or desirable to have God make our decisions FOR us, instead of having given us the option of whether to follow Him or not????

EDG: If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

BW: And you're just silly! Just because God is omnipotent, does NOT mean He must dictate every little jot and tittle of what you or I choose to do. He gave us the freedom to choose whether or not to follow Him, and the only other supernatural entity around for those who don't choose God is Satan, who was once one of God's chief angels, but now is evil incarnate. You choose your way, and I'll most certainly choose mine.

EDG: If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

BW: That's your foolish and gravely narrow interpretation of the matter. Not mine.

EDG: If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil.

BW: Evil comes from the willful and rebellious nature of man's hearts. But you try to blame it on God!!!!!! Get real! If this is the most illustrative "thought" you can come up with, you are really in lower grade school, and need help to progress! Maybe some formal training in logic?

EDG: If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

BW: Once again, and it's not a difficult concept to understand and remember, just because God is omnipotent does NOT mean that He should feel any obligation to make our decisions FOR us. He gave us free will, so we can choose to follow Him or whatever else we may choose to follow. This is likely a means by which He determines who is suitable for Heaven, and who must be remanded to hell, with the devil and his minions. If we didn't choose Him, Heaven couldn't be Heaven any more with the recalcitrant and unruly there. So He has no choice but to separate the wheat from the chaff, and each of us gets to choose our fate. You have chosen your way, and I mine. God be with you. I hope you see the light before your time comes. I honestly do.

EDG: No I cannot be in obedience - I do not recognize your god exists.
Your entire train of logic makes no sense.

BW: It may not make sense to you, what with your expectations of some sort of god who'll do everything FOR us. Tell me, if you can, why would God go to all the trouble to create this world, and THEN, march us around like chess pieces or toy soldiers???? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to give us a free will, and let US decide who we'll follow? How can you not understand this very simple logic????

EDG: Apparently you think your god can sit on his haunches and do nothing for 2000 years or so after "publishing" the Bible - sort of like Pontius Pilate right?
Like I have said here before "free will" is just a red herring. It is a somewhat goofy concept since all humans regardless of their religion or lack there of have free will. But so do cats and dogs and every other creature with anything resembling a brain.

BW: But did you ever ask why we have a free will??? You on one hand, state that you want God to make our decisions FOR us, and then, you acknowledge that indeed, we all DO have free will. Why is that? It's you, my friend, who's not making sense! And you're all over the map, in fact, with your rambling and incredibly willful contentions. You've clearly made up your mind who you'll follow. Why is your business, but I confess, I have difficulty understanding why a man would choose as you obviously have. But then, it was never meant for me to understand everything. That's God's job. Not mine.

cas
08-26-2019, 07:26 PM
But then, it was never meant for me to understand everything. That's God's job. Not mine.


Really? Do you read any of your own posts?

Blackwater
08-26-2019, 08:07 PM
Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?

Wow! Sp! Do you seriously contend that those of us here who have faith, have never read any other books??? That's about the silliest and most assumptive things I've ever read on this board! I don't think it needs further comment. Have YOU ever really read the Bible, is a much more appropo question! If indeed you haven't, and I suspect highly that you never have, then isn't it YOU who needs to explain yourself MUCH more fully? Isn't it YOU who claims to know all about something he elsewhere admits he doesn't understand???? Gee whiz, EDG, you cannot really be serious! And you obviously aren't judging from your posts. You admit you don't understand Christianity, you haven't read "the Book," and yet, you expect us or anyone else to regard you as THE authority on it all???? You're just being an egotiscical, presumptive fool in doing this. Go and get some understanding, and then we can talk. Until then, you're just babbling, sir. Sorry, but that's just the size of it.

Blackwater
08-26-2019, 08:25 PM
And there you illustrate perfectly the problem, at least for me. I am genuinely and deeply interested in religion. Not just Christianity. I am also interested in the concept of faith, which is something of mystery to me. The trouble seems to come, almost predictably, with the awkward questions and what seems to me, and many others I am sure, some utter illogicality of some of the faithful. As such I feel my curiosity is disposed of with contempt by people who really do not know the answers to my questions. They are inconvenient.

I have said elsewhere that I can accept that my beliefs in scientific subjects might be wrong because if they are proved to be wrong, that is called learning. I believe the difficulty for someone who has 'faith' which by definition has to lack solid evidence, is that challenges to their faith threatens their whole world. When you just believe, if your belief is overcome you whole world is damaged, so it is easier to ignore the challenge, to dismiss it as mischief, which saves having to seriously consider what must be an unpleasant possibility.

UK, if you are truly interested in faith, then why is it that you dismiss it so readily and often? And too, are you seeking it with the intent of really finding true answers, or are you just studying it as an intellectual exercise? If you insist that the supernatural be confined to only terrestrial and "logical" parameters, then isn't it you who's being assumptive and eliminating any real chance of your finding real belief? And if you can't or don't find belief, then how can you claim to understand it? Belief and faith are things that you must "absorb," much as a form of "osmosis." But you can't intellectualize your way to understand or get real faith. It is beyond your mere logic or reason. It is beyond this world, so is in no way obliged to follow this world's rules. That's just how it is, and anyone who is unwilling to admit that there is, or at least MIGHT be, things beyond this earth that defy earthly explanation, can and will never receive salvation, or understand Christianity. You have drawn a fence around your willingness to see, and to understand and maybe even accept. So be it, but YOU put up the fences, and YOU will be held responsible for your decision.

However, if you decide to truly explore Christianity, then you will find Christ standing there right in front of you, and He'll never depart from you as long as you draw breath. I sincerely hope you decide to quit the fun and games, and really seek the actual, and everlasting Truth. It will be God, when you find it. But that remains for you to discover and prove for yourself.

We who believe do NOT do so without good and substantial REASONS. They may not be reasons you can understand, or maybe just don't want to accept, but they're still reasons just the same. And if anyone has zero reasons to doubt, it's you who have no faith in anything except doubt itself, and doubt is, ultimately, nothingness. Faith in nothingness is a LOT harder to explain than faith in Christ! MUCH harder!!!

You say that you are "interested" in faith, and desire to understand it. The only real way to understand it is to acquire it for yourself - something I honestly have to say that it appears you're averse to. But that's your issue. Not mine. I actually truly wish you all the best, and especially I hope you will one day, for some reason, truly seek the Truth with a capital "T." When you do, you'll understand a great many things that you claim to be mystified by now. God bless and keep you, my friend.

Blackwater
08-26-2019, 08:29 PM
If God eliminated evil he would have to eliminate free will. There is no good without evil no love without hate no light without dark. Even God cannot move an immovable object.

Tim

Your view of a "limited and only partially powerful God" is not the same as mine, or the one in the Bible. I'll just leave it at that, and leave you to your own devices in searching further on the matter. You're not destined to find wisdom from anyone here. You seem to be the kind who must find his OWN answers, and will never trust the words of others, no matter how many of them agree on whatever precept you wish to bring up. God be with you, and I hope you find your key to it all.

Combatmedic63
12-28-2021, 08:14 AM
To EDG:
My simple reply to all of your posts about the Bible, about Christ, about Salvation, etc...
Either accept Christ as your personal Savior and have your name permanently written in the Lamb's Book of Life or don't do it and wait for the end result. You will then have your definitive answer the moment you cease to exist. I will pray that you do accept Christ as your personal Savior because I don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity.

This is not a response to start another conversation, argument, disagreements or to garner a response. The choice to believe what you want to believe is yours. I guarantee you will find out if all of your beliefs were correct or incorrect when you take your last breath. My faith tells me you will be proven incorrect.

I, am a Christian, and I choose to believe in my God (freewill). The Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. Christ died for my sins and yours. I have experienced and will continue to experience the power of God in my life, the blessings, the peace, the healing, etc... Something I don't think you will ever experience but pray that you will.

Wag
12-28-2021, 10:58 AM
Many or most of you know I'm not a believer. I normally don't get involved in too many religious (or political) discussions on line or in real life. Mostly because they devolve into backbiting, name calling and other assorted rancor.

I'm mostly not interested in that.

Very unfortunate that EDG believes that he's accomplished anything worthwhile by starting this thread.

--Wag--

fixit
12-30-2021, 03:45 PM
At some point, one must decide to not feed the trolls. They tend to not care about the truth, in the end, and generally just enjoy keeping the argument going.

Char-Gar
12-30-2021, 03:58 PM
I find this thread amazing, but not for the content. I am amazed at what a large percentage of the posters are on my Ignore List. I must be doing something right.

armoredman
12-30-2021, 08:22 PM
I disagree. It is at least as germane as any other comment about those who do not believe in your imaginary friend in the heavens.

Pretty rude, amigo.

JohnH
12-30-2021, 09:13 PM
EDG, who said that God is in control? If he/she was, then there wouldn’t be evil, and as you know there is plenty of evil.

We are told God created all things, that would mean God created evil too. So either, God created all things and the duality of man is a reflection of that, or there really are two powers at work in the universe, one good and one evil.

We are also told that we were created in the image of God. After many long years of thinking and meditating on that, I've come to understand that we are like God in that we are creators and for everything we create, something is destroyed. That is the nature of creation. And in that is reflected the duality of both God and Man, each capable of creating good and creating evil (God did create Satan, or so we are told) and within our creations (Man and God's) lie destruction, and that is the pain for we as man see only the good of our creation until the destruction it brings is upon us. I do not know how God may see his creation, God is not bound by our time zone.

Please know that I am not arguing with you, just that your first sentence struck a chord in me. Of God, the only thing I am certain of is that we suffer from compound ignorance, we don't know what we don't know, and unfortunately, everything we think we do know may be wrong. It is here that faith takes over and we trust that whatever greater powers may be moving in the scenes of our our lives are benevolent and merciful; otherwise I must believe it is perfectly OK and I am justified to go and murder that SOB who wronged me so many years ago. To forgive is such a blessing :)

badguybuster
12-30-2021, 09:14 PM
Here let me help, start here:

GOD, be merciful to me a sinner.
Help me to know and believe in Christ Jesus, for I see, that if his righteousness had not been and I have not faith in that righteousness, I am utterly cast away.
Lord, I am told that thou art a merciful GOD and have ordained that thy son, Christ Jesus, is the Savior of the world and that thou art willing to bestow HIM on such a poor sinner as I am. And I am a sinner indeed.
Lord, take therefore this opportunity to magnify thy grace in the savlation of my soul.
In the name of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

Wolfdog91
12-30-2021, 09:44 PM
Never will understand why me and my pagen/atheist freinds never have heated debates like this

wv109323
12-31-2021, 12:10 AM
EDG,
If God allowed no evil and no thoughts against Him, what would be His action for you? A strike a lighting or a terminal illness?
By his freewill, He is allowing you to direct your life as you want. He will allow you to be against Him until your last breath. Or he is offering all mankind a way of salvation. Your choice.

Ban
12-31-2021, 01:00 AM
In before deletion

Best think what ya want & let others do same. Not at all impressive

Stewbaby
12-31-2021, 08:09 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220101/672a5e29e16e4b0906f8edc5380f2614.jpg

Bigslug
01-01-2022, 02:53 PM
And there you illustrate perfectly the problem, at least for me. I am genuinely and deeply interested in religion. Not just Christianity. I am also interested in the concept of faith, which is something of mystery to me. The trouble seems to come, almost predictably, with the awkward questions and what seems to me, and many others I am sure, some utter illogicality of some of the faithful. As such I feel my curiosity is disposed of with contempt by people who really do not know the answers to my questions. They are inconvenient.

I have said elsewhere that I can accept that my beliefs in scientific subjects might be wrong because if they are proved to be wrong, that is called learning. I believe the difficulty for someone who has 'faith' which by definition has to lack solid evidence, is that challenges to their faith threatens their whole world. When you just believe, if your belief is overcome you whole world is damaged, so it is easier to ignore the challenge, to dismiss it as mischief, which saves having to seriously consider what must be an unpleasant possibility.

That was very well said.:goodpost:

To go forward with the "horrors of war" theme prevalent in this thread, Eisenhower at least had the decency to explain to the 17 year old kids why they were in the landing craft. While I may not be crazy about the idea of taking an 8x57 between the eyes before I've even been on my first date, at least I've been shown the purpose behind it.

Now imagine that you found yourself BORN into that landing craft with all kinds of hell and confusion whizzing around you, and when you ask others "Why are we in this landing craft?" and are told "Ike moves in mysterious ways", just how inclined to follow Eisenhower would you be? Probably not very.

To go a little further with it, that landing craft is receiving radio signals from different "generals" (Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc...) that can't even agree on which way to go to get to the beach, and Eisenhower (or maybe more appropriately, Napoleon) never shows up to smite a few of them to remind us of the proper direction.

This is the heart of what the Epicurean Paradox attempts to address - in short "Give me something I can have confidence in and follow". Faith effectively requires a belief that Ford Engineering is all hand-built GT-40's and Cobras; Epicurous calls attention to the Pinto, wrecked and burning on the shoulder.

1hole
01-01-2022, 05:11 PM
You will have (to) accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking.
Tim

We Christians know whom we have believed and it doesn't matter what you believe. Thus, you "have to accept" that your continuing lame efforts to convert us to your nihilistic position falls on deaf ears.

Fact is, even from your bleak life view, if Christians are wrong we will lose nothing in life that matters and live happy lives until the end; there's no downside. On the other hand, if YOU are wrong you first live a spiritually hopeless life and, at the end, you'll have an eternal living death and lose everything that matters; that's a BIG downside.

Even determined men like you who refuse to see, hear and experience nothing eternally good in this life and choose to live in spiritual darkness, the rational choice of those options shouldn't be hard for people as wise as you think you are to make.

1hole
01-01-2022, 07:00 PM
If you are in the military at 17 them your an adult. Been there done that, your responsible for all your actions and you can't blame others. You sound like a Baby Boomer it's everyone else's falt. That would explain your hang up about God.

Dan, I agree with a lot of things you say but I have to disagree about anyone being an "adult" at age 17; I don't think that's possible.

I went into the military at 18, barely out of high school as was also true of virtually all the youths I went in with. I, and the others, had the mental capacity to learn the things our schools taught us. Then, as a group, we had the skills to responsibly do serious work in the field but few - if any - of us had the life experience to vote wisely.

In general. our whole life experience had been living with and being fed by our parents, our every need had been provided by our parents.

So, the military could quickly prepare us to fight vicious battles but they could not make adults out of us by simply training us to operate flamethrowers or aim cannon. Truth is, we were still just 18 year old boys with deadly skills and weapons, we hadn't yet experienced the adult responsibilities that could foster reasoned political votes.

I believe 21 is the youngest reasonable voting age even for those in arms. (And maybe 25 for those with no honorable DD214! ???)

.429&H110
01-02-2022, 12:12 AM
Repeatedly in this thread I read "If God..."
Let me help you out of the Epicurian problem.
There is no "if" about God.
"If I were God I wouldn't do that..."
You aren't God. He Is.

JSnover
01-02-2022, 08:06 AM
Never will understand why me and my pagen/atheist freinds never have heated debates like this

Probably because they're not trolls, like the OP.
God didn't make this mess on Earth, we did. Why should He clean it up?
None of us can know what the Kingdom of Heaven actually is or what it's purpose might be, but it can't an easy place to get into: You can't let just anyone in.

Good Cheer
01-24-2022, 11:54 AM
EDG,
I'm not going to bother reading through all the posts but just answer the query from post #3, "If god is really in control why did he permit the death and the horrors of the war to be inflicted on hundreds of millions of innocent people".
So OK, here goes, from the summer of 1983, who we are and what we're doing here.
No.1
This world is set up as a processing plant. The feed stock gets pumped in, a product gets shipped out and the dross gets tossed.
No.2
Physical death is part of the process until such time as the feed stock is used up and the plant gets shut down.

Available scripture tells about where the feed stock came from, how the plant was set up, the end product, all the way through to plant shut down. Scripture also explains that the feed stock was too precious to throw away so the plant was built.

JSnover
01-29-2022, 08:54 AM
Good Cheer is right. We're here for a brief period before moving on to something far more important than anything that happens here.
I don't believe Heaven has much to do with singing God's praise and feelin' alright for the rest of eternity. There's a reason why only those with the bravest of souls and the strongest faith will end up there and this chaotic, dangerous, temptation-filled world is just part of the selection process.
We're being screened for something Big.

Good Cheer
01-29-2022, 10:51 AM
Praise.
This morning I asked the wife what she understood about praise as opposed to worship.
We'd never discussed it before. I'd never really dug into it before and looked in the mirror.
Decided I needed to go back into the psalms.