45-70 bp rem-umc

[Larry Gibson]

Can someone give me an approximate range of manufacturing dates of this ammo? It is REM-UMC 45 Govt 45-70. It has a 405 gr swaged lead FNHB bullet that was sized .457. The balloon head case had 70 gr of what appeared to be 3Fg BP compressed in it.

246685

[M-Tecs]

Larry at one time this site had a lot of 45/70 manufacture dates. https://www.oldammo.com/january05.htm It still may but you will have to go thru it page by page. Easiest would be to e-mail them. From the pics it looks to be a solid head case based on the sharp rim and extractor groove but I have only seen a couple of solid balloon head cases and they didn't have a sharp rim and extractor groove like solid heads do. They looked more like folder balloon head cases.

https://oldammo.com/november04.htm

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/45-70-government

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?177009-45-70-Baloon-Head-Brass posts 5 & 8

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?234147-umc-45-govt-ammunition

[Bird]

UMC was acquired by remington in 1912, and the cartridges after that date had the REM-UMC headstamp. Prior to that They had the same type of case without the REM stamp.
I have similar looking ammo with just the UMC stamp.

[M-Tecs]

Larry

I would greatly appreciated better pics of the lube and lube grooves on the bullet. When I was a kid I got to fire some original BP 45/70 cartridges but I have never pulled one apart. I do have a small collection but that is mostly fired cases and the few loaded rounds I have are all one of only so I don't want to pull them apart.

Curious as to how the bullet and actual grooves compares to the various molds.

From the info above it should appear the they were still loading BP after 1912? I would be interested in knowing when commercial 45/70 stopped being loaded with Blackpowder? Second part of that would be what and when the last commercial Blackpowder cartridge was loaded? If I remember correctly Blackpowder was still used in the harpoon and grappling hook loads in the late 50's. I was also told industrial 8 gauge shell where still loaded with BP in the 70's

[Larry Gibson]

Larry

I would greatly appreciated better pics of the lube and lube grooves on the bullet. When I was a kid I got to fire some original BP 45/70 cartridges but I have never pulled one apart. I do have a small collection but that is mostly fired cases and the few loaded rounds I have are all one of only so I don't want to pull them apart.

Curious as to how the bullet and actual grooves compares to the various molds...........

Picture as requested showing a lube groove. You can see the grooves were made with a knurling tool during swaging;

246694

A better picture of the "dish";

246695

Answers to your other questions would also interest me. I'm going to pressure/velocity test 6 of the cartridges.....if they go bang........and will post back here the results.

[M-Tecs]

I would be surprised if they don't go bang. The small amount of lube is somewhat of a surprise to me but I mostly shoot BP in 30" or 32" barrels. Thanks for the pics.

[jrmartin1964]

The last Remington ammunition catalog to list .45-70 loaded with BP was 1937. A few cartridges contineud to be listed with BP loadings in the 1938 catalogs and price lists, but by the next year's (1939) catalogs and lists all BP loadings had been discontinued.

Jim

Note: Catalogs were still illustrating cartridges with Rem-UMC headstamp in 1938.

[M-Tecs]

jrmartin1964, Thanks for the info. 1938 is later than I expected. I would have guessed mid 20's

[Larry Gibson]

jrmartin1964

Thanks for the info. I suspected it would have been loaded up into the '30s. Good to know.

[Larry Gibson]

Got a Chance to test this old REM-UMC BP 45-70 yesterday. It was a hot day, 95-100 in the shade with 13% humidity.

The pressure/velocity test was out of the Siamese Mauser 45-70 with 24" barrel. Shot 6 shots were fired for the test as I only had a few rounds. One shot was a real quick "click-bang" so I omitted that data from the result. The 5 "good" shots resulted in a measured average pressure of 22,000 psi with a SD of 700 psi and an ES of 1,500 psi. The average muzzle velocity was 1233 fps, the SD 7 fps and the ES 19 fps. Accuracy was mediocre with those 5 shots going into 8" at 100 yards.

[jrmartin1964]

Obviously won't be winning any matches with that old ammo, but could probly put the hurt on some type of large game! The consistency of your test results, in particular velocity, is amazing... even more so considering that ammo is at the least 82 years old, and could be 20+ years older!