Which is the best choice for a .44 magnum, in an 1894 Marlin?

[robinsroost]

I have available a 240 grain SWCHPGC, and a 300 grain JSP and both will be loaded over H110. Which will be the best choice and why? BTW, the lead boolets were cast out of wheel weights...........robin

[MOA]

I would guess a few more questions.
1. What are you hunting.
2. At what velocity is needed for what distance is the shot taken at.
3. Higher velocity in the j word
4. If up close, your 240 at max velocity for cast should work, but shot placement must be dead on and not over 70 yrds. IMHO

Of course I'm guessing that this IS for hunting and not punching paper, and I'm guessing the game animal is large.

[robinsroost]

MOA, I will be hunting white tail deer and wild boar both at around 200 pounds or so, and the distance will be less than 100 yards, usually much less. Of all the deer I have harvested in my lifetime, (around 40), only one was further than 100 yards. That one was taken in South Dakota at approximately 250 yards, and was harvested with a 130 grain .270 with a starting speed at approximately 3000 fps, and was DRT. The hogs were much closer. Keep yer powder dry...………..robin

[brewer12345]

I would guess a few more questions.
1. What are you hunting.
2. At what velocity is needed for what distance is the shot taken at.
3. Higher velocity in the j word
4. If up close, your 240 at max velocity for cast should work, but shot placement must be dead on and not over 70 yrds. IMHO

Of course I'm guessing that this IS for hunting and not punching paper, and I'm guessing the game animal is large.

Why would a 240 grain cast be less than 70 yards max?

[MOA]

Why would a 240 grain cast be less than 70 yards max?


It's been my experience with 44 magnums that velocity is shed quickly from a cartridge case of that length. It's not the boolit that is the issuing factor here, it's the powder capacity availability to shove a 240-300 gr boolit at high velocity at 100+ yards. If that same boolit is stuffed into a case of the 444 you have a very different animal just in the sustainability of power and velocity, but with a longer burn time in a longer barrel that the 44 mag just cannot give you. A rifle or carbine shooting a 44 mag is still a firearm shooting a handgun cartridge.
https://i.postimg.cc/qBZ3mkHm/20190101_090508.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[MOA]

I have available a 240 grain SWCHPGC, and a 300 grain JSP and both will be loaded over H110. Which will be the best choice and why? BTW, the lead boolets were cast out of wheel weights...........robin


If your shots are of that range, it makes no ballistic difference which you use. But, if it were me........I'd most likely be using hornedy 300 grain XTP's. Good hunting.

[oconeedan]

First things first, see which shoots best. You may find that one or the other eliminates itself. Dan

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Robinroost,

My choice is a Wide Flat Nose cast, with as large a meplat as will function through your rifle!

Forget the hollow points. I know that some folk like that bullet design, but cast bullet expansion is always and forever dependent on alloy and the velocity at impact. A cast bullet that expands well at one velocity may devastatingly over expand at greater velocity or not expand at all at a lower velocity or greater distance.

The WFN cast results are not dependent on expansion. With my WFN cast bullets in my 45/70 or .44 mag RUGER 77/44, that bullet gets er done given reasonable distance and of course as always, proper shot placement.

I'm using a 465gr WFN in the 45/70 at a velocity of about 1650fps while in the .44 the bullet is a 275/280gr WFN bullet I cast for my son's .444. My .44 mag velocity is 1750fps. Both bullet have proven to be very effective.

The 45/70 has accounted for numerous deer and three elk, and during the 2017 deer season the .44 accounted for two deer. Longest shot was a measured 95/100yds. Deer dropped where it stood, behind the shoulder lung shot, complete penetration.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[brewer12345]

It's been my experience with 44 magnums that velocity is shed quickly from a cartridge case of that length. It's not the boolit that is the issuing factor here, it's the powder capacity availability to shove a 240-300 gr boolit at high velocity at 100+ yards. If that same boolit is stuffed into a case of the 444 you have a very different animal just in the sustainability of power and velocity, but with a longer burn time in a longer barrel that the 44 mag just cannot give you. A rifle or carbine shooting a 44 mag is still a firearm shooting a handgun cartridge.
https://i.postimg.cc/qBZ3mkHm/20190101_090508.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I guess I am perplexed. Why will a 54 caliber round ball of 230 grains kill an elk at 100 yards and a 240 grain modern bullet/boolit in .44 not kill a deer at 100 yards? Both doing about the same speed at the barrel.

[Outpost75]

My general-purpose bullet in .44 Special, .44-40 and .44 Magnum is Accurate 43-230G.

246615

Most of the time I load to about 1000 fps handgun and 1200 fps carbine, as I find this adequate east of the Mississippi, because all the mastadons and sabre toothed tigers were killed off and eaten by the locals long ago. I don't know on what planet these people are finding bionic deer and hogs that need 300-grain bullets. Not here.

I fine these adequate to 50 yards revolver and 100 yards lever action carbine. Could probably push a bit farther, but no real need to do so.

You guys read too many fanstasy hunting magazines.

[Norske]

The 1894 has a 1 in 38" twist. Mine doesn't make acceptable accuracy at either 25 or 50 yards with a Lee 310 gr cast bullet. However, with a jacketed 240gr bullet over 20 grains of Reloader 2400, it's very accurate to the limits of my low-powered scope and 72 year old eyes. My SuperBlackHawks shoot the 310 gr Lee cast bullet much better than the Marlin rifle.

[MOA]

I guess I am perplexed. Why will a 54 caliber round ball of 230 grains kill an elk at 100 yards and a 240 grain modern bullet/boolit in .44 not kill a deer at 100 yards? Both doing about the same speed at the barrel.


Not so much about if it will kill, it's more about having more than enough energy on impact to make a quick kill. Local hunters in Alaska over the years have been killing Polar bears with 22 Hornet ammunition, but that is not how most of us would approach harvesting game animals. Who wants to be chasing down game. Now I'm not trying to stir up a bunch of controversy over what caliber or cartridge one should use for hunting, I just like to use a bit more energy than most on my hunts. It has been said, by who I'm not sure, that as an example, deer size game should have 1000 foot pounds minimum of energy on impact to be effective on a regular basis. Here are a few data points for reference on energy and velocity of the 44 Mag and a 54 caliber round ball at 100 yards and at 70 yards respectively.

44 cal 300gr. XTP Max Muzzle velocity-1400fps - Energy@100 meters - 769 FP.
44 cal 240gr. JHP Max Muzzle velocity-1800fps - Energy@100 meters - 714 FP.
44 cal 240gr. Hard Cast Max Muzzle velocity-1765fps - Energy@100 yards - 960 FP.

54 cal 230gr Pure lead round ball MV - 1808FPS - energy@ 100 - 610FP

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44 cal 300gr. XTP Max Muzzle velocity-1400fps - Energy@75 yds - 1009 FP.
44 cal 240gr. JHP Max Muzzle velocity-1800fps - Energy@75 yds - 1320 FP.
44 cal 240gr. Hard Cast Max Muzzle velocity-1765fps - Energy@100 yards - 900 FP.

54 cal 230gr Pure lead round ball MV - 1808FPS - energy@ 75yds - approx range 687FP

As listed in numerous loading manuals these all show energy levels below 1000 fps for deer size game, and again, I'm not saying that these velocity and energy levels will not kill game animals, it is just my opinion and my thoughts that I would want a little more edge on power and energy using the 44 Magnum cartridge for this size game and I get that extra edge holding at 70 yards IMHO.

[White Oak]

I think bullets in the .429 and up diameters kill in a different way than most hunters are accustom to.
With all respect, I am not sure where the 1000 foot pound threshold standard started but that is 14 times more energy than most compound bows have.
Last season I killed a large whitetail doe with a 44 revolver at 65 yards. 270 gr cast at 1,250 mv.
Complete pass thru, deer made it 50yrds before piling up. I figure at 65yrd it was south of 700 foot pounds. Everything was set up perfect for that shot and I rarely take a shot that long but it was effective.
Find a bullet that is accurate, practice and take ethical shots.

[brewer12345]

I think bullets in the .429 and up diameters kill in a different way than most hunters are accustom to.
With all respect, I am not sure where the 1000 foot pound threshold standard started but that is 14 times more energy than most compound bows have.


I think this is exactly it. Aside from shock, bullets kill in part by making holes in important stuff. The bigger the hole, the more damage you do, all else being equal. If you look at, say, a .243, that cartridge depends on a certain amount of shock imparted by speed, but it also needs to expand on impact to be credible. This is pretty much how most modern jacketed rifle cartridges are designed to work. In contrast, something like a .44 mag or any muzzleloader projectile you care to name arrives at the target "pre-expanded." They likely won't be travelling as fast as a smaller caliber, high speed bullet that is designed to expand, but they make plenty big holes in stuff and if you make them out of soft enough alloy they usually even expand.

I was fooling around with what I will probably use in muzzleloader deer season. I couldn't get the rifle to shoot a round ball to my satisfaction, but it shot really well with a 370 soft lead boolit that the ballistic charts say exits the muzzle at around 1300 FPS. This lump of lead has a lousy ballistic coefficient of .15 so even though it starts out with ballistics that approximate 45/70 trapdoor/buffalo loads, it sheds velocity pretty quickly. I don't have any doubt about its efficacy on elk or deer out to 100 yards simply because almost an ounce of lead that starts out half an inch in diameter will leave a big enough path of destruction to finish off a game animal pretty quickly. Yep, it will have less than 1000 foot pounds before it gets to 100 yards.

[Norske]

Animals die because their brains run out of oxygen. Period.
So, if a bullet causes enough bleeding, it will kill. Big bullet, big hole, lots of blood loss. Small, high velocity expanding bullet, big hole, and same effect. Delivered KE isn't a good measure of the ability to stop large game. Momentum is much better. The old example is the similar KE of a 22-250 and a 45-70. Which do you choose for bear hunting? To calculate momentum divide the KE by the velocity and multiply that number by 2. Both KE and velocity are on a cartridge box. To get momentum to a really good predictor of stopping ability, you need to factor in bullet diameter and whether it's a solid or expanding. Hornady's website used to have a simple to use calculator, and it showed a 480 Ruger had 20% more stopping power than a 460 S&W.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Norski,

I general I'd agree with your info. However, there is more to the picture then can be covered in a "period".

I've taken a lot of critters over the years, whenever possible with a behind the shoulder lung shot and when I arrive at the downed critter, many of which dropped where they stood, the critter is laying quiet with no body movement at all.

Then a few years back I took a head shot on a deer, something which I avoid in most cases, but this time I was sitting within feet of the range that I had spent much bench time at, and the deer was at the 100yd distance and I had spent much time at that range/distance working with the cast bullet loads for my 45/70.

At the shot, the deer dropped where it stood, for all practical purposes, dead with a brain shot - 465gr Wide Flat nose cast at 1650fps muzzle velocity -, yet when I walked up to the critter, it twitched and jerked and seemed to do so for in reality a short time, but what seemed to be for a long time. Not something I was accustomed to seeing with my typical side to side lung shots.

So, while what you say is likely correct, there is just more to this total picture then I can explain or understand. The brain was scrambled in this head shot situation while in my typical situation the blood supply was being disrupted but there was still some amount of blood in the system and the brain was still totally intact---------------

I was for many years a Jacketed bullet shooter and hand loader, but since I've come to using a 45/70 with a Wide Flat Nose cast bullet it left me wondering why I had not gone that direction much sooner. Same result during the 2017 season when I took two deer with cast bullets fired from my little RUGER 77/44 rifle.

Yes I fully realize there are some range/distance constraints with the slower and heavier cast bullets, but to say I am impressed with my cast bullet results is an understatement.

AS said, after the trigger is pulled, there is just a lot that I don't fully understand.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Norske]

That's different results than a retired USDA depredation controller (aka gopher choker) had with his surplus 6.5X55 with surplus full-jacketed bullets. He dropped three bull bison in their tracks by shooting them broadside between the eye and the ear. The local Indian tribe was thrilled with the head from the big old bull, and the meat from the 2 younger ones. The tribal game warden was happy he didn't have to use a horse and rope to haul quarters up out of a gully.