Buckbuster 12 gauge slug [Archive]

megasupermagnum

08-07-2019, 03:23 PM

I am looking for someone to run this as a group buy. This is an old design from a company that went out of buisness almost 20 years ago now. I still think this is the most well designed slug for in a standard shotcup. The slugs as sold were swaged, and ran just shy of 1 ounce. They also made heavier and lighter versions, but I never had any. Due to the removal of the hollow point, and having to taper the hollow base more for casting purposes, this "1 ounce buckbuster" is guestimated to run close to 1 1/8 oz. Feel free to made adjustments if the hollow base is not tapered enough, or other tooling challenges. The body diameter is a straight .681", and I'd like a plus or minus .001" tolerance on that. Not minus .002".

246438

jmort

08-07-2019, 04:03 PM

I am up for most anything

.678" makes sense
Eliminating the sharp step and just making it a RNFP makes sense
I would also make the skirt thicker

Hope one of the Honchos gets on board

megasupermagnum

08-07-2019, 06:21 PM

I am up for most anything

.678" makes sense
Eliminating the sharp step and just making it a RNFP makes sense
I would also make the skirt thicker

Hope one of the Honchos gets on board

That would be a whole different slug, the buckbuster is one that has been tested and works well. I'm willing to accept small changes, but I'm only interested in a buckbuster copy. The buckbuster skirt is that thin.

jmort

08-07-2019, 06:32 PM

megasupermagnum

08-07-2019, 06:40 PM

It is an improved slug, not completely different
Foster slugs are “proven” but not my favorite design
The modest suggestions I made are all improvements
I think you will find this process frustrating if you think my modest suggestions are a “whole different slug”
Do you think .681” will fit the wad better ?
Do you think a thin skirt that will collapse is better ?
Do you think a sharp step shoulder is better ?
I guess so
I will just watch and see how this goes
I hope you get what you want

.681" is what the buckbuster is. It fits most common wads perfectly. .685" is too big for most wads, and while .678" is not a huge difference (better than too big), why would you want to change? The thin skirt works fine. I've shot them with heavy powder charges. If anything it helps bump up in the bore. I have recovered slugs to prove this. The shoulder is for a roll crimp to set on. The original buckbuster has a square 90 degree shoulder, I have this one drawn with a 55 degree shoulder for tooling considerations.

longbow

08-07-2019, 08:17 PM

I also read about the Buckbuster slugs, have loading info and I believe I still have an old magazine or maybe 2 with article(s) on the Buckbuster slugs. They were indeed considered to be quite accurate from what I read.

The closest I know of is the BPI swaged slug:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Foster-Slug-12ga-678-375gr-25_pk/productinfo/7000002/

More like what JMort is talking about. Seems to me BPI used to have a 1 1/8 oz. version too.

I'd be leaning to the larger diameter like msm though as it should swage to fit and I am inclined to think that a relatively soft HB slug in wad that is oversize for the bore will swage down and that is better than slugging up.

Mind you, I am leaning away from shotcups lately due to the varying fit issues. Thinking bore diameter+ slugs are a better way to go.

Having said that, I just might be interested in this one... especially if it is a Mihec mould and 2 cavity or better. I passed on the Mihec Lyman sabot slug clone and the NOE Lyman sabot slug clone but this one I think I'd go for.

I'd like the square shoulder but really nothing wrong with what you have there so not a deal breaker.

I'd suggest the option of having 2 or 3... or more different HB pins to allow thicker skirt and different depth HB.

0.681" diameter suits me but another option might be if the cherry can be orbited as Mihec often does, the same cherry might make 0.678" to 0.685" moulds of otherwise same design.

A few thoughts.

Longbow

bluejay75

08-07-2019, 09:20 PM

Settle on the diameter and I will pick this one up.

megasupermagnum

08-07-2019, 09:59 PM

.681" is the correct diameter.

jmort

08-07-2019, 10:30 PM

Settle on the diameter and I will pick this one up.

Very accommodating as usual

gpidaho

08-07-2019, 11:40 PM

I'd be interested in getting one of these "Buck Buster" moulds and agree that .681 would work for me. I like the step to give a point of purchase for a roll crimp. Also I'd like to see three different pins available so one could vary the skirt thickness and slug weight and balance. Gp

rancher1913

08-08-2019, 06:44 AM

been watching this thread and now that we got a honco onboard I would be in for a mold or two.

longbow

08-08-2019, 07:38 PM

Okay then... no more fence sitting! I'm in if:

- this is a brass Mihec mould and preferably double cavity
- I can buy extra stock HB pins to machine down if I want to play with skirt thickness... or there are optional pins supplied
- diameter is at least 0.678" or variable diameter (0.681" is fine by me)

I've passed on too many moulds I would have liked... maybe didn't need but would have liked. I want this one!

Let's make this happen!

Longbow

ncmn

08-08-2019, 09:55 PM

Sounds good guys, never been in a group buy but I am interested as well in the .681 and would also prefer double cavity.

megasupermagnum

08-08-2019, 11:11 PM

Additional base pins would be a nice addition. I would be interested in a 2 cavity. I prefer aluminum myself, but would have no problems at all with brass if that is what MP uses most.

jmort

08-08-2019, 11:40 PM

Smaller hollow base pin for me
Would like to get the weight up and have a stronger slug
Just enough to get the weight forward for badminton effect
The ACE group buy had different pins including the smalker "Turbo" pin, large pin, and a blank
The last three MP shotgun group buy molds have been two cavity brass
I am usually good for two molds

megasupermagnum

08-09-2019, 12:45 AM

What is the ACE group buy. Was ACE a mold company?

jmort

08-09-2019, 01:02 AM

Here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218000-A-C-E-12-Ga-740-Gr-HB-slug
ACE did a few groups buys

megasupermagnum

08-09-2019, 01:48 AM

Wow, I bet you hear that one flying down range. That is scary similar to another mold I have. It is almost identical to the ACE slug pictured, hollow base and all, except mine has .500" meplat.

longbow

08-09-2019, 08:02 PM

That's another one I passed on. Should be good for rifled gun but I doubt it is weight forward enough for smoothbore.

Yes, extra pins! I can machine my own so a design as per your drawing with extra stock pins is good then I can turn down pins as I want.

However, having say 3 different diameter and length pins supplied so skirt thickness can be increased would be nice.

It would be worth checking if the cherry can be orbited to produce different diameters as well. It is done with boolit moulds so should be doable for a slug mould. That would let people pick the diameter they want. if doable I'd say 0.678", 0.681" and 0.685" should suit most people and it may get more in the group buy. I'd rather go big then size down to suit wad fit than have small and patch up. But then I can make my own sizer.

if it is one size I am good with 0.681". What msm has shown is good for me so even if there are no options I am in for 2 cavity mould. If it isn't a Mihec Cramer mould I may reconsider. I do like that design though! I want it!

Longbow

jmort

08-09-2019, 11:17 PM

Actually reports from AZ Brian

"I shot this out of a Remington 1100 smooth bore.
All loads seemed to shoot equally as well as far as accuracy goes. I was able to put 3 rounds touching each other at 25 yards for each of the loads."

And Turbo attest to the usefulness of the ACE slug in a smooth bore

"Accuracy at 25-50 yards out of the smooth bore guns was about the same as other full bore hollow base slugs I have custom molds for and shoot out of them regularly. Basically pushing a bigger heavier slug with a bigger wider flatter nose with no noticeable reduction in accuracy = now I've got even better angry bear medicine in my arsenal.

I did get some noticeable reduction in accuracy compared to what some of my other full bore slugs are capable of when firing the solids out of my rifled barrel gun at 100-200 yards range. That big wide flat nose seems to start having some bucking issues further out compared to comparable slugs I have in my arsenal with more wedge shaped TC noses."

I only used the Turbo HB Plug with Blue Dot in both rifled and smooth barrels
I did try 21 grains of Unique
It works real good out to 50 yards for me
Do not shoot them a lot.

Mr ACE/338RemUltraMag had a couple few extra molds that I picked up before he went kaput. I think I have around 4 of them. If I run across them I will send you a PM.

longbow

08-10-2019, 02:46 AM

Which turbo HB slug?

I would have sworn he posted the drawing of the 12 ga. slug but I can't find it now. He did post teh drawing of his 10 ga. HB slug which I downloaded and scaled to 12 ga.

The ACE slug was also a bit heavy for my wants or needs. I guess if you want a bear stopper that would be a good slug. Lots of weight and a big meplat! I'm sure it would leave an owie!

Hmmmm... I hadn't noticed before but looking back at the link jmort posted, it is 0.734". So far I haven't read any posts regarding it being too big or causing pressure issues. That's a lot of swaging to 0.727" which seems to be common for rifled gun groove diameter. That certainly should make for good fit in most shotguns. My single shot runs 0.733" and my Slugster is right about 0.730".

Interesting!

Longbow

jmort

08-10-2019, 07:58 AM

The Turbo Bell was just the hollow-based pin that allows for the thick skirt he advocated. My experience is that he is right. ACE added it to the group buy as the original skirts were too thin
I would like thicker skirt pin option here.

246535

Per Turbo:

"It is my experience that a bare minimum wall thickness on a hollow base skirt is about 0.08" and preferably a higher practical minimum of about 0.10" wall thickness is necessary in most shotgun slug loads to keep the skirt from significantly and unevenly collapsing under the firing loads during the trip down the barrel. Most factory foster slugs have skirt wall thicknesses with at least some weak spots well below that, and many factory slug molds also barely have enough wall thickness on the skirt to have the minimum strength needed to prevent such significant distortion of the slugs skirt during firing.

I have personally proven to myself that having just a little thicker skirt walls makes a significant improvement in accuracy in a smooth bore gun and the substantial reduction in the distortion of the slugs skirts as a result has been confirmed by careful capture and examination of the fired slugs using the snow drift methodology which is the best way I know of to stop a bullet or slug without mangling it in the process of stopping it so that its actual in-flight condition after it exits the muzzle and before impacting a normal target can be examined."

longbow

08-10-2019, 11:38 AM

I'm with turbo there for sure!

I have shot soft lead Lyman Foster slugs into deep snow then recovered them and every one had bumped up to bore diameter from as cast 0.705" and every one had noses tilted and uneven skirts. They were obviously tilting before they hit the bore then swaging to fit.

The Lyman Foster slug runs about 1/16" skirt thickness so I decided to make a mould with thicker skirt of 0.100". I cast up some slugs from ACWW then went shooting in winter with deep snow again. Accuracy was horrible with targets showing keyholes. I was quite surprised since the slug was a tight fitting wad slug with thick skirt and seemingly good balance point.

When the snow melted in the spring I recovered several slugs and the reason accuracy was horrible was obvious... the skirts were belling! It seemed that the wads would partially push into the HB cavity forcing the trailing edge of the skirt outwards. So it wasn't collapsing but was flaring out. Never seen that before! I have since though.

I tried both filling the HB cavities with hot melt glue and oven heat treating. Both solutions worked well and accuracy was as good or better than most other slugs I've tried with groups running 4" to maybe 6" at 50 yards.

Since, I have almost always filled the cavities with hot melt glue.

A couple of years ago I was testing out a new design and decided to alter the mould to make a Brenneke style slug for attached wad. I made a very thick walled HB cavity to increase length and provide longer lead bearing surface, otherwise the slug is very short at 1 1/8 oz. or so. Skirt thickness was about 1/8" so I didn't think the skirt would fail. Wrong! That thick skirt belled when the wads pushed in even with ACWW!

I like skirt thickness from no less than about 0.080" to 0.110" and HB cavity filled.

I am in for this group buy whether we get a selection of pins or not. Skirt as is runs a hair over 0.080" thick and I can machine pins down if I want to get thicker skirt.

Longbow

jmort

08-10-2019, 12:32 PM

His minimum is .10"
The Turbo Bell pictured is .11"
I would like .12" minimum so there is sufficient strength to promote accuracy

longbow

08-11-2019, 04:23 PM

We don't seem to be generating much interest here... yet anyway. Could we extend the potential group buy to Shotgun World and/or the American Slug Shooting Association? We might get more people interested and turn it into a real group buy.

I'd like to get this mould!

Longbow

gpidaho

08-11-2019, 08:23 PM

I'll be in for one when it gets going and I see the available options. Gp

jmort

08-11-2019, 11:06 PM

I think it will fly
We got a Honcho
I am good for two
I bet we are getting close to 10
I see no problem in this happening
Might take a spell, but not an unreasonable amount of time

megasupermagnum

08-12-2019, 01:13 PM

I count 7 molds already, 8 if rancher1913 gets two. Once this goes active, it doesn't look like it would take long.

bluejay75

08-12-2019, 06:05 PM

I count 7 molds already, 8 if rancher1913 gets two. Once this goes active, it doesn't look like it would take long.

Preference on mold makers?
Who will agree to share this on the shotgun sites?

jmort

08-12-2019, 06:44 PM

I have no preference
NOE or MP
I do not see the nessity to solicite other sites
I would suggest it be coordinated through the Honcho
Let's do this .....

megasupermagnum

08-12-2019, 07:25 PM

Whichever one agrees to run for less molds, 10 would be great. Trying to find buyers for 30 molds might be tough. If I had to choose, I would say NOE because I believe they would put it on their website for future purchase, easier to get base pins (for us in the USA anyway), etc. That and I would rather have an aluminum mold than brass.

I would have no problem at all with MP either, especially if the mold # requirement is lower.

Tmaloy

08-12-2019, 07:35 PM

longbow

08-12-2019, 07:44 PM

While I like my NOE moulds I do not have one of their RGB HP or HB pin moulds. I am a bit skeptical of the system mostly with regards to longevity. Not so much with brass but with aluminum I have to wonder.

I guess my question is ~ who has an RGB HP and/or HB NOE mould and how many boolits has it cast? Any problems with wear of mould halves around the pins? Galling? I suppose the RGB moulds have been in production for some time now so maybe I am just being paranoid but I like the Cramer system better.

I'd prefer brass from whoever the maker is regardless. Given the option I'd go with iron actually. However, Mihec and NOE don't make iron moulds and Accurate iron moulds are considerably more expensive then brass or aluminum.

Anyway, let's get this sorted out then we'll see what the options are.

Longbow

megasupermagnum

08-12-2019, 07:46 PM

Just starting with loading slugs so please bear with me. What type of crimp can this be used with? Does this require trimming the hulls or can one use the regular star type crimp?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

These work with both star and roll crimps. You do not need to trim hulls, trimming wads may or may not be beneficial depending on which wad and spacers are used.

longbow

08-12-2019, 07:46 PM

By the way msm, where did you get the drawing for this slug? did you have a drawing or did you produce the drawing from physical measurements of the slug?

megasupermagnum

08-12-2019, 07:54 PM

By the way msm, where did you get the drawing for this slug? did you have a drawing or did you produce the drawing from physical measurements of the slug?

I used TMT cast bullet software, and measured from a number of actual Buckbuster slugs made by Shotgun Bullets MFG. I did have to make a few small changes like the shoulder isn't perfectly squared (It is square on a real Buckbuster), and the base pin needs to be tapered more so it releases during casting, where the real Buckbuster was a much straighter taper.

As for the NOE RG series molds, I only have one. It works fine, galling is no problem. You do have to make it a point that the pins are seated correctly when you close the mold, as they have a little up and down play. Longevity is no concern to me on mine, which a 44 caliber hollow point. Did NOE use their RG floating pin style molds for their Lyman sabot slug copy? I would ask whoever bought those molds how they work. The one thing I do not like about the RG molds is the brackets for the pins is on the bottom of the mold. They do not slide on my Lee pot's mold shelf. The easy way around that is to get the NOE mold shelf.

longbow

08-12-2019, 08:32 PM

Not sure the pin taper would make a lot of difference. I was going to get the Ness Safety Bullet but was worried about sticking on the really deep and barely tapered HP pin so I made a push out mould clone to check it out and not only did I not get sticking at all on the pins but the mould cast so well I dropped out of the group buy! Kinda wish I hadn't because i do love Mihec brass moulds but I like my $150.00 too.

Having said that I have a Lyman Foster slug mould in 12 ga. and I have never cast with a more cantankerous mould! The HP pin looks reasonably tapered and is quite smooth but man does it stick! Maybe the large diameter skirt shrinking is the problem there. I've had no problems with my push out slug moulds with barely any pin taper though so go figure!

Anyway, not an issue if the pin has a bit more taper... better a bit more than it needs than a bit less! I am liking this slug!

Longbow

megasupermagnum

08-12-2019, 09:25 PM

Tmaloy

08-13-2019, 02:11 AM

Gents, another dumb question, is this a bore rider type slug, or is this a sabot type? I plan to use my Remington 1100 smooth bore 12G.

megasupermagnum

08-13-2019, 09:57 AM

Sabot, for use in a regular plastic wad.

newcastter

08-15-2019, 01:02 PM

I’m interested in one of these molds.

gpidaho

08-15-2019, 01:29 PM

I own one of the Noe 525 sabot slug moulds. I'm a big fan of Noe products, tooling and moulds and am a thousand dollar club member more than two times over. That said, I don't really care for the HB pin arrangement. It's the same as Noe uses for their HP moulds and requires special supports so the mould slides easily under the spout if you use a bottom pour pot. I use wooden 4X4s cut to various heights and a tile set on top. The biggest complaint about this pin arrangement is that it puts a lot of side pressure on the skirt when you open the mould and if this is done before the slug is totally set it cracks the skirts with associated problems mentioned in other posts (look out chronograph) I prefer the pin the Russians use on their slug moulds but that does limit it to a one cavity mould. Gp

mortyg

08-15-2019, 03:38 PM

I would be in for one of these slugs molds.
I am also looking for a bore rider slug mold.
Thanks

bluejay75

08-15-2019, 05:49 PM

Will send to 45.2.1 to do the design and request it run at 15 molds with MP Molds.

jmort

08-15-2019, 06:23 PM

Will send to 45.2.1 to do the design and request it run at 15 molds with MP Molds.

Never a bad idea
Could you mention a smaller HB pin for a stronger slug option
I am intetested in best possible accuracy
Regardless, thank you

gpidaho

08-15-2019, 06:40 PM

Thank you bluejay75. I think we can get 15 signed up pretty quickly. Gp

megasupermagnum

08-15-2019, 06:47 PM

Never a bad idea
Could you mention a smaller HB pin for a stronger slug option
I am intetested in best possible accuracy
Regardless, thank you

Definitely request multiple base pins please.

megasupermagnum

08-15-2019, 06:47 PM

I would be in for one of these slugs molds.
I am also looking for a bore rider slug mold.
Thanks

Go the shotgun casting section, we can help you there.

megasupermagnum

08-15-2019, 06:52 PM

Thank you bluejay75. I think we can get 15 signed up pretty quickly. Gp

Here is what I'm seeing, 15 is no problem.

1. Megasupermagnum
2. Gpidaho
3. Rancher1913
4. Longbow
5. Ncmn
6. Jmort
7. Jmort
8. Newcastter
9. Mortyg

longbow

08-15-2019, 07:40 PM

Yeah, I like the Cramer style HP/HB moulds myself and the Lee centering pin system as well. I think Brooks does a system like Lee but with sliders.

I'd even go single cavity with pin like the Lyman or Russian moulds but given the option a Mihec Cramer style 2 cavity is my preference and in brass is possible but I guess I'd go aluminum on this one if that is the choice.

I've likely said all that before but I'm getting old so I can repeat myself and not feel too bad... that and forget where I left things! Wait... what was I saying? Where did I leave my beer?

I'm in regardless. Wait what are we buying?

Longbow

bluejay75

08-15-2019, 08:04 PM

Turbo or buck buster design. Bob is already working on this. I personally like the turbo.

jmort

08-15-2019, 08:08 PM

You and me both

longbow

08-15-2019, 08:37 PM

The Turbo is a full bore design isn't it?

I modeled my push out mould off the scaled down turbo 10 ga. drawing. It has no lube grooves/driving bands but is the same overall design and HB pin. It casts well and shoots reasonably well though it is slightly undersize in my single shot. I have knurled some up to 0.735"+ then sized back to 0.733" to suit that fat bore but haven'at managed to find time to shoot them yet! Now that I have the Mossberg Slugster smoothbore with 0.730" bore they should be perfect fit as cast but as above! I got to get to the range!

I could go either way I think but still lean towards the Mihec Cramer mould and since this is msm's suggestion thread I am good with his Buckbuster slug. So I guess that means I'll stick with the msm thread and Buckbuster clone if it goes this way. I think he has enough interest for it to get a group buy together.

If a turbo clone design gets run that should be another group buy... and I might get on that one too!

Longbow

bluejay75

08-15-2019, 08:47 PM

He can scale it down to those specs. Just need a consensus.

gpidaho

08-15-2019, 09:02 PM

I like the slug posted in post #1 except I'd like extra pins so one could vary the balance and skirt thickness. I like the step in the nose for a spot to set the crimp also the strait side is a plus. Gp

jmort

08-15-2019, 09:08 PM

The Turbo pin is a bell like pin what provides for thicker skirts and much more accurate slugs
This is not a full bore design.
The skirts need to be .12" plus minimum

246776

newcastter

08-15-2019, 09:12 PM

Buckbuster for me please.

gpidaho

08-15-2019, 09:36 PM

I like both of the moulds and might even buy one of each but as this started out as msm's buckbuster group buy I'd like to see the buy run for the buckbuster first and them move on to the turbo. That said I'm in however this group decides . Gp

jmort

08-15-2019, 11:00 PM

The Turbo Bell Pin is not a slug in this context
It is merely a pin design
Not sure how to make it any more clear
This is for the BuckBuster slug per the O/P
45.2.1 is finalizing the design so Miha can make it
These group buys can be brutal
Everyone should be really happy
Looking like one of the fastest MP group buys requiring a pin in recent memory
:-D:-D:-D:-D:-

BTW
A fullbore slug with a Turbo Bell Pin would be super cool
In a seperate buy later on
Something that hits like a freight-train

gpidaho

08-15-2019, 11:12 PM

Thanks for the clarification jmort. Ready when you all are. Gp

Tmaloy

08-15-2019, 11:49 PM

This is looking good, I like the idea of having additional pins to vary the skirt thickness and think it should be part of the end result. From what I can gather, a pin for the standard Buckbuster and a pin for the Turbo style would be doable? I would be in for one if those options are available.

megasupermagnum

08-15-2019, 11:56 PM

I understand you jmort. I would like having a second "turbo" style pin to go with.

longbow

08-16-2019, 12:17 AM

Okay then that makes sense... Buckbuster pin, turbo pin and maybe a couple (or couple pair) of spare Buckbuster pins I can turn myself if I want a thicker skirt but Buckbuster style pin.

I will say that so far I have had better success casting with rounded or pointed pins. I find that with flat or near flat top pins slugs often wind up with a small cavity or pocket at the top of the pin. I'm guessing small air pockets sticking to the flat top.

Let's do this! I need another Mihec mould and this is the one!

Longbow

bluejay75

08-16-2019, 11:31 AM

Prices will be higher to set the mold threshold lower. But will reduce the time of the buy by half or more.

Bob is working the design now.

bluejay75

08-18-2019, 07:31 PM

246922

Please see attached and read the following:

" Please look at the attached jpeg. Basic dimensions are as per post #1. The original hollow base plug will stick with a cramer type pin set up. A 10 degree draft is MINIMUM for it to release well. Any variation in hollow base pin type will require 100 pins each (at least right now). All the new solid line configs can be done with one pin type, but you would have to cut them yourself. A basic 0.08" base wall hollow base plug could be used to make thicker walls or a Turbo type pin as shown. Weight will vary of course. About 16+ molds could be had with 6 hollow base pins per mold allowing you three full sets of base plugs (6 per mold). The Lee tumble lube body comes into play if you want a full groove slug from this cherry later. Think about it."

Now lets come to a consensus and we will turn into a group buy.

Based on the configurations...expect to pay more. Rationale...you would get 25 mold worth of pins for the run of 16 molds.

longbow

08-18-2019, 08:51 PM

Well, I'm in!

My preferences:
- original Buckbuster nose profile
- one set Buckbuster style pins (10°) for 0.080" skirt
- If available, one set Buckbuster style pins (10°) for 0.100" skirt
- If available, one set turbo pins (10°) for 0.100" skirt
- If only original Buckbuster style pins are available then I'd take 2 or 3 extra pair for 0.080" skirt then I can turn turn from there if I want to play. I would take blank pins too if available ~ that is turned to suit mould blocks and drilled and tapped for Cramer sliders but no profile on the pin.
- I'd go with the tumble lube design because I'd like full bore too if available later. Having said that if the tumble lube grooves add significant cost and there is little interest by others in full bore slug then smooth is fine with me.

Let's see what everyone else wants and get this going!

I'm excited!

Longbow

megasupermagnum

08-18-2019, 10:25 PM

If I am understanding correctly, he is willing to sell extra of the same plug, which you could modify yourself? That sounds like a good plan. I had a feeling the base had to have more taper, no big deal.

I want one standard buck buster slug mold with an extra set of (2) pins, assuming double cavity. I have no interest in a full bore version.

jmort

08-18-2019, 10:42 PM

gpidaho

08-19-2019, 01:17 PM

Absolutely love the design
A full bore version would be super cool
As stated, I am good for this regardless
Would be nice to get two finished pins, one original and one smaller one creating a smaller HB with thick skirts
And then follow-on with a full-bore
Would like those pins finished
Not a DIY machinist
Would be good for two of each
I am jazzed
I agree with jmort. I'm no machinist but would like the option of extra pins. I've purchased three different moulds offered by Svarog and each had optional pins at a nominal cost. I'm in on one of these but believe "finished" pins should be offered with a mould in this price range. Gp

megasupermagnum

08-19-2019, 06:45 PM

Just to be more clear, I am interested in what is labeled as ".080" base wall" on that drawing for my base pin. While I can understand the interest in a thick walled style "turbo" base, I would second guess a flat top. I had one of mine originally cut with a flat point, and it was nothing but problems. Lead would splash off of it, which caused uneven fill, and was partially solved by pouring with the mold angled. The big problem was air bubbles. The only way around that is to cull the bad ones. Scrap rate was around 25% or more. I rounded the top of that pin off, and it made it SOOO much easier to cast with.

gpidaho

08-19-2019, 07:14 PM

I understand the problems that could be encountered with the pins having a flat top as both Longbow and MSM have posted and how they could trap air bubbles. I'm not saying I want or need or need "Turbo pins" I would just like the option of different wall thickness and depth of the pin so one could vary the weight and balance. Again, similar to the options given by Svarog on their 525 Lyman clone. This isn't a deal killer for me. I like the slug and can always just pick up the base model. Gp

jmort

08-19-2019, 08:01 PM

The pin designs are intended to address all potential concerns

bluejay75

08-19-2019, 09:28 PM

Final design will be based on your comments. Should be ready to go live this week.

Im going to run this and the full groove slug at the same time. So settle on the final design and we will go to Group Buy.

longbow

08-19-2019, 10:36 PM

What is the proposed full bore/full groove slug diameter?

If this goes, I'd like at least 0.730" diameter and more like 0.732". Having said that, if both moulds run at the same time I will likely choose just one and I suspect it will be the standard Buckbuster wad slug. Two moulds at once is a bit extravagant for me but... I do like shiny stuff!

Also, I just noticed... no wad slug diameter on the sketch ~ I'd like 0.681" +/- 0.001" per msm's original proposal.

Longbow

jmort

08-19-2019, 11:18 PM

.730" to .732" would be fine by me
At .730" it could be coated
I am thrilled that we are doing wad/sabot version and full bore
45.2.1 really set this straight along with our Honcho
Bless these two men

longbow

08-20-2019, 07:54 PM

Let's see what others want and get this going! I am looking forward to adding a Mihec 2 cavity slug mould (or maybe 2) to my collection!

Yes, 45.2.1 and Bluejay get some attaboys for this alright!

bluejay75

08-20-2019, 09:54 PM

I’m going to ask him to go final on the design. Short nose. Three sets of pins. A finished larger pin for thinner walls that can be turned to make the thicker wall pin. The three solid line pins in the drawing.

longbow

08-20-2019, 10:54 PM

Is the plan ~ mould plus the three sets of pins or a choice of pins with the moulds? For me, I'd go with 2 pairs 0.080" Buckbuster pins (or maybe 3 pairs if spares are available) and one pair of 0.100" Buckbuster pins. I can turn the Buckbuster style to make a turbo style if I want though I'd round the top some.

turbo pins I can live without if there is a choice.

If it is mould plus all three pin styles, no problem. Spare Buckbuster pins in 0.080" and/or 0.100" would be nice though.

I'm getting more excited!

Longbow

newcastter

08-20-2019, 10:58 PM

I would like to go full bore, jmort brings up a very good point in room for coating with the .730. I powder coat all my cast boolits now and I would prefer that size.
I like the idea of the extra pins however I do not have the ability to turn one down to match the Turbo design. I’m hoping someone might offer to do that for a minimal fee.
Do we have a ballpark price for these molds?

Rcmaveric

08-21-2019, 04:39 AM

Not smart enough on this subject to offer any ideas. Been having poor results with Lee slugs. Maybe its time for a new slug mold. I know a few of you here and trust your opinions. I will join for sabot and full bore slug.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

longbow

08-21-2019, 07:30 PM

Bluejay when you say "I’m going to ask him to go final on the design. Short nose." is that the shorter fatter nose shown in the sketch rather than the original Buckbuster nose? I like the original Buckbuster nose.

I haven't seen others posting for different nose either. Personally I think too large a meplat is... well, overkill and detrimental to flight. The Buckbuster is a proven design as msm pointed out in the beginning. I'll go with the majority if they want the short fat nose but I'd prefer the original profile.

Longbow

bluejay75

08-21-2019, 08:15 PM

gpidaho

08-21-2019, 08:26 PM

I agree with Longbow. I prefer the original mould drawing. Gp

megasupermagnum

08-21-2019, 09:41 PM

I already have 3 full bore diameter shotgun slug molds, plus a full bore diameter round ball, so I have no interest in another as I said. I am only interested in the buckbuster copy, with a .080" base wall plug.

That said, I am kind of intrigued by the tumble lube grooves. Personally I would make the full bore slug bigger, .733". Even with powder coat, this would be ok. Make the lube grooves deeper, so that it can swage down to fit the barrel, including some chokes.

gpidaho

08-21-2019, 09:48 PM

All my slug moulds but the Noe Lyman 525 clone are full bore slugs. This is why I am interested in the mould pictured in the OP, I could use another in the wad sabot style slug. I'm not against the full bore design if others want it. It also looks to be a good idea. Gp

longbow

08-21-2019, 10:57 PM

I'm with msm... the original design wad slug with the exception of slightly more taper on pins. That's 3 of us! Speak up everyone... what do you want?

If the full bore version goes I may get that too but wad slug for sure, smooth or tumble lube, I don't care unless tumble lube grooves are going to add $$$ then I can do without them.

Did we get a count of who wants full bore? is that a go?

megasupermagnum

08-21-2019, 11:07 PM

Clarification, I do not want tumble lube grooves on the buckbuster slug, only smooth sided.

It is a cool idea on the full bore slug though.

jmort

08-21-2019, 11:10 PM

The new design is better
I vote for the new design

Rcmaveric

08-22-2019, 07:27 AM

I am with Msm and Longbow.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

longbow

08-22-2019, 07:40 PM

I have no problem with the turbo pins even if they are included so everyone has to pay for them. I just want the original Buckbuster profile and 0.080" skirt pins hopefully along with 0.100" skirt pins or spare 0.080" pins I can turn.

I'm not thrilled with the short fat nose though. Maybe not a deal breaker if the original style pins are available too but the short fat nose is not my first choice.

Let's see what everyone else wants.

Longbow

newcastter

08-22-2019, 08:01 PM

Buckbuster design for me.

mortyg

08-23-2019, 08:56 PM

I prefer the Buckbuster design and a thick rim as I plan on using this in 3 1/2 inch.
I am very interested in a full bore version.

bluejay75

08-24-2019, 08:54 PM

The vote is being monitored. Lets get a little more input and I think the Live group buy will magically appear.

Ranch Dog

08-25-2019, 09:26 AM

rancher1913

08-25-2019, 09:39 AM

I will go with what ever the consensus is, you guys know more about slugs than me.

longbow

08-25-2019, 11:21 AM

The variation in petal thickness and taper is an issue for sure. Greg Sappington (AKA 12bore) who used to post here some was trying to get set up to cast commercially using wad slugs for rifled guns. These were solid slugs with HP but no HB. I made a couple of moulds (my simple push out moulds) for his prototypes. In the end he came to the conclusion that trap wads are not made precisely enough to provide the accuracy he was looking for. Now having said that I think he was looking for tighter groups than typically accepted hunting level accuracy and at long range. I likely would have found his group size acceptable.

Greg gave up and went the custom sabot route.

Not trying to convince people that a wad slug can't be made to shoot acceptably well and I am sure many have gotten good accuracy with Lee and Lyman sabot slugs by finding the right wad/load combination.

A lot depends on the gun and of course load and components used. There are lots of variables in shotgun slug reloading.

All that aside, wad slugs are easy to load and I am sure if a guy tinkers enough he'll find a decent load. I am still in for the original Buckbuster design wad slug with 0.80" skirt pins and hopefully 0.100" skirt pins available.

I believe I still have a couple of old articles on the original Buckbuster slugs and recall what msm remembers about them. I never shot any though so second hand knowledge on my part.

If the full bore version runs at the same time I will have to make a decision. Part of that will depend on what "full bore" diameter is. Fit is king and I think a "full bore" slug should be over bore/groove diameter by a few thou so squeezes to fit. With any HB design like the Buckbuster with HB pin extending past the bore riding section I have to think they'll squeeze to fit quite easily.

Anyway, I digress a bit.

I am still in for original Buckbuster design in wad slug and/or full bore... possibly both.

Longbow

gpidaho

08-25-2019, 11:30 AM

I prefer the original Buckbuster design in an aluminum mould. Gp

jmort

08-25-2019, 12:10 PM

Very interesting! Has anyone identified the "target" pressure column wads that fit the design in post #1? I spent a bit of time working on a design with NOE, but we dropped it. We took an appropriate step to ensure there was a list of what wad cup would work, which is tougher than you think. We went as far as sectioning the cups to determine the taper; it was brutal. There is a lot of variation in the products. We both would do the measuring of wads from the same lots and come up with something different. Both of us threw in the towel.

I would be interested in the full bore design. Does anyone have a link? I would need an aluminum mold; my hands cannot handle the weight of a casting session like they once did.

The fill bore as depicted is as perfect as we are going to get
The reason I proposed a. 678" size for the wad/sabot version was that has been proven to be the best compromise. The Lee slugs are .680" I believe, and slightly too large to be universal. No one has a clue about the vest usiversal size. AJ would be the best opinion in this regard. I will PM him. It is all a compromise. 45.2.1 has done us all a big favor by stepping in and improving the design. Hope the dithering is a benefit to the final versions. As stated, I will take two of each of the 45.2.1 designs. He gets what pins would be needed, shape-wise and otherwise.

ncmn

08-25-2019, 12:45 PM

Guys I am interested as I said before, but with my limited slug experience I will have to say that right now I was looking for the buckbuster copy in double cavity aluminum mold. Still wondering what the possible cost would be without extra pins, as I am not a machinist either.

Ranch Dog

08-25-2019, 02:46 PM

The Lee slugs are .680" I believe, and slightly too large to be universal.
I have the Lee drawings, the design is .681".

Ranch Dog

08-25-2019, 02:49 PM

Is there a link to the full-bore Buckbuster?

ncmn

08-25-2019, 03:29 PM

My Lee 7/8 were about .688 to .690 with range scrap lead

jmort

08-25-2019, 04:57 PM

Is there a link to the full-bore Buckbuster?

It has never existed. The "link" is the 45.2.1 design in this thread
It is a TL design that should coat well with PC or HiTek or even TL

megasupermagnum

08-26-2019, 12:28 PM

I have the Lee drawings, the design is .681".

I have NEVER seen a Lee slug cast that small. Mine cast .687". The smallest I've ever seen posted was .685" and many are up to .690".

jmort

08-26-2019, 06:17 PM

I will just pray the 45.2.1 makes the call or gets the nod
I would regret, but live with a lesser design
Do not understand ignoring the greater

jmort

08-26-2019, 06:17 PM

I have NEVER seen a Lee slug cast that small. Mine cast .687". The smallest I've ever seen posted was .685" and many are up to .690".

Which is why they are worthless

longbow

08-26-2019, 07:44 PM

Hmmmm... I'll have to check my Lee slugs later. Pretty sure the 1 oz. casts about 0.685" and the 7/8 oz. 0.683". I'll check again.

longbow

08-26-2019, 08:38 PM

Okay then, just checked.

My Lee 1 oz. slugs run 0.685"/0.686" at the nose and a little larger at the seam, and 0.670" pretty consistent at the skirt.

My Lee 7/8 oz. slugs run 0.680"/0.686" at the nose (I'd say mould blocks are slightly out) and 0.660"/0.667" at the skirt. Definitely oval but again likely mould blocks are out of line. This one should be lapped.

These are all cast in ACWW. Other alloys might cast larger.

Both cast well and slugs drop out. I haven't really used either enough to draw too many conclusions except that slugs from my home made moulds group better with components tested so far.

The 7/8 oz. are sloppy in my Winchester wads for my 0.733" bore smoothbore so one wrap of paper snugs them up. Lapping may fix that. But then my Mossberg Slugster has 0.729"/0.730" bore so they may be okay there. With bore size slugs, being a bit oversize is a bonus I think but with wad slugs too tight a fit seems to result in sheared petals.

Longbow

ncmn

08-26-2019, 09:15 PM

My measurements were at the widest part of the slug.

megasupermagnum

08-26-2019, 09:49 PM

Which is why they are worthless

I came to the same conclusion. Out of every wad I could find, only one combo was acceptable in my largest bore smooth bore shotgun.

.681" perfect fit in the bottom of a wad, but a little loose at the top, as every wad tapers slightly. This is ok, and if anything it helps keep wads intact through the forcing cone and into the bore. Once in the bore, the idea is that they obturate to a perfect fit. That is the beauty of the buckbuster slug. I still have all the instructions and load data, and they even recommend working up loads past their listed data until wads begin to shear off. They knew that the harder you push them, the better they fit... until the plastic wad gave out. I have recovered slugs that even show lines in them from the slits in the wad petals, that's how well they bumped up.

longbow

08-27-2019, 12:08 AM

Would you share that load data? A guy just can't have too much slug load data! I'm always looking to add to my library!

Longbow

megasupermagnum

08-27-2019, 11:18 AM

I've posted this before. I can take better pictures if it's too hard to read.

247394

Take a close look. You can even see the lines from the wad petal. This was recovered from the 200 yard range.
247395

247396

247397

I just read them myself. I knew I got the 20 gauge AA wad trick from somewhere! For many years to seat slugs I've used a 20 gauge AA wad with cup cut off to protect the slug nose from the MEC drop tube. I even leave the crush section, and it slides right inside the drop tube, it does not fall out.

longbow

08-27-2019, 08:48 PM

I did a search but didn't turn up your previous posting of this data. The pics are a bit hard to read but I downloaded them all anyway. Thanks.

Those slugs must be pure or near pure lead to deform between plastic petals! The setback and filling the bore is obviously the goal and reason these worked. I'm thinking a somewhat oversize full bore slug should accomplish the same thing by squeezing down.

Still on board for the original Buckbuster at this point,

Longbow

tja6435

08-27-2019, 09:09 PM

I’d be in for at least 1 mold

megasupermagnum

08-28-2019, 12:20 PM

Ok, I took the Buckbuster documents to a scanner. Hopefully these show up better.

Instructions
247468

Load Data
247469

Load Tuning
247470

longbow

08-28-2019, 08:04 PM

Indeed they do! Thank you msm!

I found my old articles on the Buckbuster "shotgun bullet" by Mike Bleech. Only one load given but lots of praise about accuracy and easy loading and the repeated how to work up until petals shear then back off a bit for best accuracy.

If anyone is interested I can scan and post those articles though they are not "technical" nor full of load data. Still, an interesting read.

With any luck we'll be repeating Mike Bleech's successes!

Let's get this group buy going!

Longbow

megasupermagnum

08-28-2019, 09:26 PM

For what it's worth, I found the load data to be great. I'm pretty sure I used the 7th load down. I know I used a Remington hull, Claybuster wad, and 800X powder. I don't think I was able to increase powder without petals shearing. That load shot about 12" at 200 yards if I remember correctly, better than many factory loads. 100 yard accuracy wasn't as good as many factory sabot slugs, but was in the 3-4" range. I believe my only rifled shotgun was the ultra slug hunter at the time. I did try them from smooth bores, but don't remember how they shot.