Blue Dot and round ball

[yondering]

Can any of you guys suggest some healthy Blue Dot loads for 12 gauge with a single .685" round ball? I've seen a few mentions of it on this site, but no specifics as to hull and wad. I'm using Win AA hulls, and have WAA12SL and RXP12 wads, and will probably go buy some WAA12 wads as well. I'm looking for higher velocity heavy loads, like factory slugs, rather than mild trap loads. The Alliant website isn't much help, as I can't find any slug loads on there, and I want more oomph than the standard shot loads.

I've been loading these round balls with Green Dot and SR4756 using shotshell data, but would like to try something more on the same power level as the factory slug loads. I'm using a fold crimp, as I don't have a roll crimp tool yet.


I also have a few Fiocchi 3" hulls I could work with.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I Recommend you read through all of LONGBOW posts ... He has done alot of work with RB and Bluedot.
The Results with .735 RB can be aplied to the .685 as the .685 weights less.
Due to the differences in wads.. especially the Winchester brands.. I would start out 25% less powder charge off max load of Blue dot or Unique or any powder charge not listed.

First get a Max Load factory slug and fire it in your test barrel. Measure the case brass expansion diameter. This will be very useful to determine for your barrel the safe case brass expansion.
Load one round and measure the brass cup diameter. Fire it.. measure it again. Repeat this process increasing your load in 1/2 grain increments until your load starts approaching the Max Case expansion of the factory load case. This is a reasonably safe pressure test. I can not recommend passing the factory expansion test case. Is a gain of 50fps worth the risk ?? You will already have a load more powerful than hunters had 150 years ago and they routinely dropped 2 ton animals...
Go slow.. use care.

[longbow]

yondering:

As you may well be aware, slug loading info can be a little hard to come by and often, if like me, you live in an area with limited reloading resources the mix of components can be frustrating. Like I got the hulls, powder and wad but wrong primer or I've got the wrong wad or... Then there are the discrepancies between loading manuals and of course each says "Don't make substitutions to recipes". I have several examples in manuals where they show even a simple wad change can produce significantly higher pressures. A primer or hull change can really effect pressures too.

I started out using other slug loads as a basis with as little change to components as possible ~ maybe wad column changes. After doing a bunch of research and load comparisons I started to feel more comfortable but was also tending to pick lower pressure loads if I was making any substitutions.

Then I got hold of a couple of slug shooters on another forum and got some good information and advice from them.

Generally it seems to be accepted that a slug substituted for shot weight for weight will produce lower pressures. I have tried it and while I don't have pressure testing equipment I have had no problems at all doing this ~ no sticky extraction or any other signs of high pressure.

Also, it seems slower powders are less susceptible to pressure increases with wad changes. Stiff or soft wads can make quite a difference with at least some fast powders in shot loads so I am assuming the same for slugs.

The advice I have gotten is to use slower powders like Blue Dot or 4756. I am sure there are lots of other powders used for heavy shot loads and buckshot loads that are suitable as well. What I find odd is that most of the loading data I have uses quite fast powders like PB, Green Dot and Unique.

Anyway, on to the Blue Dot story (sorry for rambling).

I happened to have a good supply of Blue Dot and once I got deeper into the slug experimenting and using some heavier than 1 oz. slugs I figured the Blue Dot was a better choice. I ran into some loading data from Precision Rifle for their "Piledriver" slug which was a full bore Keith style slug 610 grs. They listed these specs:

- a new plastic hull (no type or make mentioned but I suspect any straight sided hull is suitable ~ no compression formed hulls need apply)
- 36 to 44 grs. Blue Dot
- a plastic gas seal
- 4 fiber wads
- Piledriver 610 gr. slug
- no primer type or make mentioned

Pressures were listed from 38 grs. Blue Dot @ 11,299 PSI to 44 Grs. Blue Dot @ 12,359 PSI

What I have used is:

- Fiocchi 2 3/4" low base hull
- Winchester 209 primer
- plastic gas seal cut of WW AA red wad
- 1/2" hard card wad (s) and fiber wad(s) to get the wad column to a good height for crimp
- 36 grs. Blue Dot starting load (kicked pretty good if you ask me)
- 38 grs. Blue Dot (kicked enough harder I wasn't interested in going for more gusto without getting some loads pressure tested ~ no sticky extraction though)
- ACWW 0.735" RB
- roll crimp

One fellow who is far more experienced than I am said he thought the top end loads listed were too high a pressure so I shouldn't go there. 38 grs. behind that RB was enough for me anyway.

Accuracy from my CYLINDER BORE gun is about 4" +/- at 50 yards and accuracy from the borrowed rifled 870 was 2" and I think the gun was capable of better but I was shaking body parts off after all the shooting so I wasn't capable of better accuracy.

I will say again that the 0.735" RB seems to kick a little more than a heavier slug of 610 grs. that was bore size. I suspect that the initial swaging of the ball builds a faster pressure. No signs of over pressure though. I think it is a good load and may send some out for pressure testing. If I am not near max. then I may try a little more poop (and a little more shoulder padding).

The one thing that does concern me with these loads is that I would hate to have a full bore slug or RB wind up in a choked gun by accident. Yes they can be kept separate and they can be marked but if they aren't obviously a bore sized slug someone some time may do something they shouldn't. These slugs will not likely go through any choke without damaging the barrel.

Well, anyway, there you have it the long rambling Blue Dot story with extras! I hope it helps some.

Longbow

[yondering]

Wow, thanks for all the info Longbow. That does help some. For now, at least, I plan on sticking with a .690" round ball in a shot cup, since I don't have a .735" mold and the .715" balls I borrowed don't do so well for accuracy.

From your comment in the Piledriver load data, you've got me wondering if the Win AA compression formed hulls are a poor choice to use for this application? These are pretty much all I have in quantity for now, so I'd like to be able to use them if they work.

If I could find some load data for 1 1/8 oz shot loads with Blue Dot, I could go from there, but so far I haven't found much. The Alliant website lists a 1 1/4 oz load with 37.5gr Blue Dot in a Win AA hull with the WAA12R wad for 1,375 fps, so thats a start, but my .690" round balls only weigh 1 1/16 oz.

The Lee load data that comes with their key drive slugs lists 49gr Blue dot in a Rem Premier hull (which appears to have less capacity than a Win AA hull) and a WAA12 wad for their 1 oz slug at 1,650 fps. Would it be safe to back off a few grains and substitute the 1 1/16 oz round ball for the 1 oz slug? I'd sure like to get that kind of velocity with a RB, but I imagine that velocity number is for a longer barrel.

Missionary, I'll take your advice on measuring brass expansion.

Thanks to both of you guys for all the informative posts you have written on this board about round ball loads. I've read through most of them so far, I think, and have learned quite a lot.

[missionary5155]

Good morning Yondering... Happy to be of help. Ya learn through life " I need all the help I can get".. There is wisdom in many heads..
Maybe one day you will be out in your rainy woods and really need a Smasher ( sorry Dixie, I told ya I liked your word) and there it will be in your pocket... and you will be able to return home in one piece.

[longbow]

yondering:

If you are using compression formed hulls it is best to stick close to book loads or at least proven loads. Again, somewhat mixed messages as when I went looking for the best slug hulls I was pointed to the Fiocchi's by BPI. For the most part I have read and been told that large capacity straight walled hulls are the way to go. After getting the Fiocchi hulls I found there was more buckshot and slug loading data for Winchester AA hulls! Go figure.

The next batch of hulls I buy will likely be Federal Gold Medal. Lots and lots of shot, buckshot and slug loading data for them and they are large capacity hulls.

Anyway, If you use the 1 1/4 oz shot load you will likely get somewhat higher velocity. The ball is a little lighter than the shot load but I have gotten good results with 0.662" RB's (1 oz.) over Blue Dot. That would at least get you shooting with the 0.690's.

I found that the 0.662" RB performed better using a Winchester AA Red wad than the 0.735" RB over nitro card wad and 1/2" hard card filler (better burn) ~ same load of 36 grs. It seems the plastic gas seal made all the difference so I went to those with the 0.735" RB. Anyway, if it worked with a 1 oz. ball it outta work with your 0.690" RB.

I may have some BPI buckshot load data for Winchester AA hulls if you want me to look. There should be some for 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 oz and buckshot loads tend to be higher velocity like slug loads. Might give you something else to work with.

I would be careful working up loads in compression formed hulls due to small volume and shaped "chamber". Maybe someone else here can advise what is safe and sane. Any slug loads I have made with Winchester compression formed hulls were strictly book recipes for Lyman Foster slug so I am not much help here.

Longbow

[yondering]

Longbow, I'd be real interested in that buckshot data for AA hulls, if you don't mind looking it up. Thanks.

I've used the 1 1/4 oz load mentioned above, and have reached 1375 fps with 40gr Blue Dot and a .690" (.685") RB. Recoil wasn't too bad, definitely a lot less than factory slug loads. A lot of muzzle flash though, we're talking 2-3 ft flame from my 18" barrel, kinda like what you'd see in the movies. There's also a good bit of powder residue in the bore, from incomplete combustion, so I'm wondering if the pressure is a bit low, causing incomplete powder burn.
More experimenting to come.

[longbow]

yondering:

I'll try to look those loads out later. I am pretty sure I have some heavy load data for Winchester AA's.

As for powder residue, I found that the 0.735" RB's over nitro and hard card wads did not give a clean burn but the same load using a 0.662" RB with plastic gas seal I got better burn and more recoil. We are talking about 3/8 oz. lighter so that plastic gas seal makes a big difference. I started using them under the 0.735" RB's too with noticeable improvement in performance.

If you are using a shot cup with a soft cushion that may make a difference in lower initial pressure so maybe not enough build up for complete burn. BPI recommends a good solid roll crimp to promote complete burn. If the crimp can make a noticeable difference then so can other little things.

Anyway, I'll see what I can find and post it for you.

Longbow

[yondering]

Thanks Longbow. I believe you are right about the soft cushion leading possibly to lower pressures and incomplete burn. I'm using the WAA12 wads, but found some other data, for basically the same load, with the WAA12R wad, which has a shorter cushion section. Sucks that these are out of production, but I have some Claybuster replacements on the way from Graf's, so I'll try those out when they show up. I do expect a better burn with those, and they will fit the load better, as the WAA12's are a tad long.
I'm using a fold crimp, and no overshot card, mainly because I don't have a roll crimper tool. Can hulls that were originally fold crimped be roll crimped? Is a roll crimp really necessary, or can a firm fold crimp do the job?

[longbow]

yondering:

I do have some Blue Dot loads though most will be for heavier payloads of buckshot that your 0.690" RB at about 1 1/16th oz.

Looking through the shot loads I don't see Blue Dot listed for anything lighter than 1 1/4 oz. of shot for Win AA hulls.

I also have a few slug loads for 1 oz. and a little heavier using Blue Dot. I will have to sort them out and most of the buckshot loads are by pellet count not weight so I will have to look up pellet weights to get payload in ounces.

Sorry about that. I can probably get it done tomorrow. I am bagged and heading to bed tonight.

Longbow

[yondering]

Looking through my new Lyman (5th ed) shotshell handbook, I found a couple buckshot loads using components I have, with Blue Dot and SR-7625. I haven't had a chance to try them yet, but the shot weights are pretty close to my round ball, and with all other components the same, I'm hoping they work out well.

As a side note to this, do any of you guys have an older version of the Lyman shotshell book? I have some Lyman slug data that was given to me from someone on another forum, but the numbers are slightly different than what is shown in my 5th edition book, so I'm not sure if I can trust it or not. The questionable data is as follows:

Remington 3" hull w/ black base wad
525gr Lyman sabot slug
Blue Dot 50gr
win209
waa12
1,555 fps
8,800 psi

Can any of you verify this data from an older lyman manual? My new manual lists this load, but with a Rem primer, and 49gr Blue dot, at slightly lower velocity and higher pressure.

[longbow]

yondering:

Sorry to take so long, I got waylaid.

The first 14 loads were the lightest birdshot loads I could find for Blue Dot in Win AA hulls. I figured that up to 1 3/8 oz. would be suitable for your 0.690" RB. The rest are buckshot & slug recipes.

WInchester 12 ga. 2 3/4" Compression formed hulls only loaded with Blue Dot powder only:

1) primer = CC1 209M; Powder = 35 to 36.5 gr.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 9,500 PSI
2) primer = Federal 209; Powder = 32 to 33.5 gr.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 10,500 PSI
3) primer = Fiocchi 616; Powder = 34.5 gr.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 8,600 PSI
4) primer = Federal 209; Powder = 32 to 33.5 gr.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 10,500 PSI
5) primer = Win 209; Powder = 34.5 to 36.5 gr.; wad = Activ T-35; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 9,700 PSI
6) primer = Win 209; Powder = 34 gr.; wad = Fed12S4; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 10,500 PSI
7) primer = Win 209; Powder = 38 gr.; wad = Rem. RP12; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 10,200 PSI
8) primer = Win 209; Powder = 35 to 37 gr.; wad = Rem. SP12; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 10,300 PSI
9) primer = Win 209; Powder = 37 gr.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 1/4 oz.; pressure = 10,600 PSI
10) primer = CC1 209M; Powder = 33.5 gr.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 3/8 oz.; pressure = 8300 PSI
11) primer = Federal 209; powder = 32 grs.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 3/8 oz.; pressure = 10,100 PSI
12) primer = Win. 209; powder = 33 gr.; wad = Federal 12S4; shot = 1 3/8 oz.; pressure = 10,400 PSI
13) primer = Win. 209; powder = 33 gr.; wad = RemSP12; shot = 1 3/8 oz.; pressure = 10,600 PSI
14) primer = Win. 209; powder = 34 gr.; wad = WAA12F114; shot = 1 3/8 oz.; pressure = 10,500 PSI
15) primer = Win. 209; powder = 39 gr.; wad = 0.135" card + 3/16" fiber + 0.135" card; buckshot = 1 5/8 oz.; pressure = 10,900 PSI
16) primer = Win. 209; powder = 36 gr.; wad = one BPGS + one 1/2" fiber; buckshot = 1 3/8 oz.; pressure = 10,000 LUP
17) primer = Win. 209; powder = 34 gr.; wad = WinAA12R; buckshot = 1 1/2 oz.; pressure = 10,000 LUP
18) primer = Win. 209; powder = 38 gr.; wad = WinAA12R; buckshot = 1 1/8 oz.; pressure = 9,100 LUP
19) primer = Win. 209; powder = 44 gr.; wad = WinAA12R; slug = Lyman Sabot 525 gr.; pressure = 9,200 LUP
20) primer = CCI 209; powder = 29 gr.; wad = BPGS + 1/4" cork + teflon wrap; buckshot = 1 1/2 oz.; pressure = 10,500 ?

That is all I found in 8 loading manuals and several bulletins on slug loading for Winchester AA 2 3/4" hulls with Blue Dot powder. There are lots of shot loads but not a lot of slug and buckshot loads.

You can find lots of shot load data here:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gauge=12&gtypeid=3&title=Shotshell

And the usual warning: I checked the loads I typed against my references but you should double check against the Alliant site recipes just to be sure. If anything looks odd, like way higher powder charge, then don't load without confirming the recipe, I may have made a typo.

Also, note the pressures are listed in PSI, LUP and ? (not given). PSI ratings tend to be higher numbers but are not directly translatable to LUP or CUP.

As for your question above, I have the Lyman 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions and only the 4th has any mention of the Lymnan 525 gr. sabot slug. The others only list the 445 gr. Foster slug. I do not find any listing for that slug or equivalent shot weights in 3" Rem hull with Blue Dot in any other manuals I have either.

I hope that helps.

Longbow

[yondering]

Wow, thanks Longbow. Lots of good data there; I'll be trying some of those out for sure.

I have one more problem, regarding ball/wad size. I've been shooting some Lyman .685" balls sent to me by SWIAFB here on this forum. These have worked fine with WAA12 wads and by dropping them into factory federal 1 1/8 oz loads. Tonight, though, I got my new Lee .690" mold, and cast a few up. They measure ~.692", and inside my Win WAA12 wads, they measure .740". Seems like this is too big, and unsafe. Is that correct? I have some Claybuster replacements for the WAA12SL wad; those seem to have thinner petals, and measure .733" with the .690" ball, but of course none of the heavy load data uses WAA12SL wads. Do the Claybuster wads normally have thinner petals than the Winchester? Do other common wads have thinner petals? What do you suggest?

The .685" balls were about .682", so about .010" smaller.

[missionary5155]

Good morning Yondering I have not measured every wad out there BUT they do vary in wad petal thickness. I setttled on .685 BECAUSE here in Peru for the last 15 years at least Winchester 12 gauge is available. The shot cup + a .685 ball is still a safe combination in cylinder and some IC/ Modified barrels. The application here is not for hunting but Extermination at VERY close range.
So with a new wad you have to start all over... Does the wad+ball fit the barrel... I have used ball+wad combinations that are.005 over smallest diameter. I prefer.003. Not all plastic wads are the same. I guess when I get back and can access my LBT and Saeco hardness tester it is time to test wad hardness. Soft plastic can be compressed easier. BUT at high speed compression is this safe? You can modify hieght BUT again you have to start load developement all over watching pressure... watching and measuring the case.. reading the wad. So as in all reloading.. If you change componets.. start over. I have not tested any 12 gauge barrel to bursting... But you do not want to either.

[longbow]

yondering:

I have loaded 0.690" RB's in Win AA Red shotcups and while I haven't run into pressure problems, they tend to shear petals even in my cylinder bore gun but especially bad through I/C choke in my Browning. I think they are too much oversize and while I am sure the plastic extrudes easily it sure doesn't do anything for accuracy.

I think missionary has it pretty well worked out with his 0.685" RB loads in shotcups. I don't see any 0.685" RB moulds anywhere on the web but 0.678" is pretty common and available in 2 cavity. I know that doesn't help now that you have a 0.690" mould though.

I originally got the 0.690" mould about 30 years ago partly because it would fit through my side by percussion shotgun full choke but mostly because it was the only big round ball mould I could find at the time. It has never performed well for me naked or in shotcups but then I didn't search for thin petals.

BPI does list loads for 0.690" RB's in their HCD (helix cushion driver) and LB12 (light brush wad with shallow cup). So those must work and there are also other wads with thinner petals that may be suitable for the 0.690" ball.

I have used the 0.690" RB to make home grown AQ clones and they do work fairly well. I have some made now and may get out to shoot them this weekend. If you are interested I will show you how to make them. I think I have found a quicker, easier way to make them so if successful I may cease the search for a Paradox type choke.

Something you might try too is what James Gates mentioned which is to punch a hole in a thick card or felt wad so the ball sits down a ways and centers in the hole under the ball. That would keep it centered in the bore but you wouldn't likely be able to do it with a cushion wad.

Longbow

[yondering]

Longbow, I would be interested in how to make AQ clones with the .690" round ball. If you have a picture of the finished product, that would be great too.

I have some Claybuster replacements for the WAA12R red wad on order, so hopefully those will be thinner than the Winchester wads, like my other Claybusters are.

On a slightly different note, my 3" BPI Multi Metal wads and lee .600" rb mold showed up last night, so I cast up some balls and made up a couple tri-ball loads. It was getting dark when I shot them this evening, but the shot from my 28" Mossberg barrel with a cylinder choke grouped all 3 balls in one large hole at 25 yards. The 18" shorty barrel shot the balls spread out about 4" at the same distance; didn't get to try my smoothbore slug barrel yet. Recoil was very impressive.

[longbow]

yondering:

Here are a couple of pictures. I have made these by hand before but it is pretty tedious. I just wanted to see how they would work.

I have also made Brenneke type using a screw to hold a base wad on but so far the AQ style seem to work best from the limited tests I have done.

Anyway, these are 0.690" RB's drilled 3/8" a little better than 1/2 way through, a paper skirt added, then the whole works filled with high strength hot melt glue. I made a little jig up to roll paper tubes and hold and align things. Works pretty well so it they are successful then I will make a more elaborate set up to save time and work on slugs.

I have also made them by punching or drilling a 1/8" hole then running a short screw in, then the paper skirt and hot melt. This is actually easier.

Longbow

[bobknab]

greetings ---------------------------------------------
bob knab here michigan/tenessee
i am intrested shooting rb in my 12 ga single shot gun
i cut the full choked barrel off to 23 inches as to the
shot shell loading the .690 ball on top of the plastic wad
the petals cut down then patch the ball with oiled brown
paper from a shopping bag to fill the ball to case space
the ball fits tight but can be pressed in with the thumb
then seal the case with a ring of duco cement or mabe
hot glue the ball i have not tryed this as yet but its on the drawing board
i like stuff like this thought i would send it on -
blessings --------------------------------------
bob knab -----------------

[odfairfaxsub]

WAA12F114 is a great wad for the job, i seat mine out with apx 23 grains of COW and a standard 8 point crimp. i hit a r22 freon tank all day with 21ish grains of unique but then again........this isnt blue dot.

[shotman]

just remember something about loads from shot to a ball the shot expands the wad and keeps the pressure up, it also will give going thru the choke. a ball dont expand the wad and it dont get smaller going thru the choke.
Make sure your load will pass the choke ok
I load a 728 ball with 30 gr blue dot and shot in a rifled barrel is a good confie load. I tried 35 gr and it kills on both ends.
As said in some old posts the gas seals change things big time .

[missionary5155]

Good morning bobknab
Good to read another West coast Michigander is popping RB out of fat barrels. I grew up in Riverside about 100 miles south of you. But that all went away when the Army had my hide for 3 years 22 days.
Hard to beat RB for ease of casting and versatility. WW RB was the first 12 guage object I found that would get through the tough neck armor of large crocks at 5 feet. Slugs just collapsed and slid off. There is no corn cruncher out there that will not sucumb to a good chest shot whether hit with pure lead or linetype. But pure lead expands nicely and really makes a huge exit hole when impact velocity is above 1100 fps. About 1200 fps I like 50/50. At 1450 or so WW works just fine. Out to 40 yards accuracy is easy minute of deer. A bit of load development and you should be able to hold 50 yards just fine. There are many threads here that get into wad /ball support, wad thickness and compression through chokes. Makes for great reading and will get you headed off correctly.
Mike in Peru

[blaster]

Weigh your RB's, I'd imagine that they average around 1.05 oz in ww. Use 1oz slug data interchangeably. Lee Lists some bluedot loads for 1 oz drive key which happens to be about .685 and average 1.05 in pure (from my mold). They aren't for AA hulls but they defiantly have high velocity.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/SM%203529.pdf