Revolver cylinder gap fix and advice needed!

[Kev18]

So I got an 1858 .36 cal original revolver, the previous owner grinded down the cylinder for some reason... causing crazy pressure drops. Balls get stuck in the barrel.

I tried to rebuild it with a mig welder. I set it on the lowest setting, not to melt the cylinder or harm it in any way. I have alot of polishing and alittle fitting along with some crack repairs to do. IM NOT A WELDER. JUST A GUY WITH A MIG WELDER.

*I dont care about collector value and such....

Il probably get a new .38 special cylinder one day but im in no rush. Do you guys think it will hold?

Before:
https://i.imgur.com/YaBlrlm.jpg

After:
https://i.imgur.com/cInRgxS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4IEbBBK.jpg

[lefty o]

you wouldnt catch me pulling the trigger on it after you buzzed it with a mig.

[Bent Ramrod]

Looks pretty good. A proper size reamer to even up the chamber mouths and it ought to work. One hopes there are no seams under the weld that might accumulate fouling and start to rust.

I have an ASM Walker that had too much cylinder gap. I left the cylinder alone, but shortened the arbor and shaved off the breech end of the barrel lug, deepened the locating pin holes and did a little filing on the cutout next to the rammer so conical boolits would fit.

Desperate times, desperate measures. It shoots fine now.

[Kev18]

you wouldnt catch me pulling the trigger on it after you buzzed it with a mig.

Why? It heated up the steel?

If it got hot i cooled it down in water. It never got red hot or anything.

[lefty o]

Why? It heated up the steel?

If it got hot i cooled it down in water. It never got red hot or anything.

and you cooled it in water, that's worse. it is now potentially brittle.

[shortlegs]

The cylinder will be brittle now that you cooled it with water and will shatter easier. Better retire that one.

[Ajohns]

Boy I don't know about that. Ditto on the water quench especially on old steel. If collector value means nothing, you shoulda tried getting the barrel off, lathe turn the shoulder back (you or someone) and get the barrel set closer that way to get the gap to spec. Or hang it on the wall, buy a clone and bang away.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Another vote for wall hanger.

But, miracles do happen, and a patient, diligent, continuing search might turn up another original cylinder from one of the parts vendors. That cylinder is toast.

DG

[Kev18]

I guess it was water cooled, but the water wasn't cold or anything. It's been sitting in the garage and it's 30c outside. And after taking it out it wasn't cool. Still pretty warm.
I want to attempt to shoot it, i guess il strap it down somehow.

[1911sw45]

You just made that cylinder unsafe mig welding it and made it brittle by water quenching it. You just made a grenade might not be the first time you pull the trigger but it’s coming.

[1911sw45]

It don’t have to be cold water to make the metal brittle.

[Kev18]

Alright well il see what happens I guess! If everything goes good il just keep it, and wait for a repro cylinder

[lefty o]

You just made that cylinder unsafe mig welding it and made it brittle by water quenching it. You just made a grenade might not be the first time you pull the trigger but it’s coming.

amen! a person shouldnt go randomly adding heat and quenching items that need to contain pressure. of course unless they dont like their fingers or eyes.

[Traffer]

Not wanting to hijack the thread but I have an old Forehand Arms 38 S&W solid frame with .012" end shake. Was planning on soldering a .010" shim to tighten up the cylinder. Just planned to use 50/50 solder. That shouldn't weaken the steel should it?

[M-Tecs]

1. Reaming is not a good option since the reamer will follow where it starts. It would need to be bored on a milling machine.

2. Generally it's a very poor idea to weld repair this type of damage. That being said chances are good that the cylinder is nothing more that mild steel so the quench MAY not be an issue if the mig wire was mild steel also. If the mig wire was an alloy it becomes a much bigger issue. Welding requires the base metal to melt so parts of the cylinder was way more than red hot.

3. Even in that condition you should be able to sell it for 2X to 4X the cost of a modern replica.

4. Finding a original matching cylinder would be restoring a piece of history.

[OldBearHair]

Get the welder back out and fill all the holes on both ends. Maybe leave one open for tying on. It would make a good fishing weight.
Soldering would sort of be like one who sticks a quality hunting knife in the fire and wonder why it turned purple. (650 degrees)

[Kev18]

1. Reaming is not a good option since the reamer will follow where it starts. It would need to be bored on a milling machine.

2. Generally it's a very poor idea to weld repair this type of damage. That being said chances are good that the cylinder is nothing more that mild steel so the quench MAY not be an issue if the mig wire was mild steel also. If the mig wire was an alloy it becomes a much bigger issue. Welding requires the base metal to metal so parts of the cylinder was way more than red hot.

3. Even in that condition you should be able to sell it for 2X to 4X the cost of a modern replica.

4. Finding a original matching cylinder would be restoring a piece of history.

It's definitely mild steel, i feel like it really won't be that bad. Especially how I weld... Im not good so I don't leave the welder on for a long amount of time. So it really doesn't heat up alot.
And if you can find a cylinder, il buy it... Il keep an eye out at gun shows.

[M-Tecs]

replica 36 cal here https://www.ebay.com/itm/Uberti-Remington-1858-36-Cal-Percussion-Single-Action-Revolver-Cylinder/133101653630?hash=item1efd7a0e7e:g:0NkAAOSwNOFdDPZ k:sc:USPSFirstClass!55304!US!-1

https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/default.asp

original 44 cal don't see any 36 but give them a call the may have other sources.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/products.asp?cat=260&perpage=5&filter=

http://www.lodgewood.com/Remington-1858-New-Model-Navy_c_62.html

Posting your WTB here might work

http://www.n-ssa.org/

[ulav8r]

Weld it up solid, then throw it in a deep lake. It should never come near powder of any kind again.

[John Taylor]

Had an old 1858 Remy come in several years back that had about .025" cylinder gap. Customer wanted to shoot it so I gave it a test fire, ball bounced off a 2x4 and left a small dent. I don't think I would have tried welding up the cylinder but setting the barrel back would probably work fine. Would have to move the loading lever catch if the barrel is set back. One of the Italian cylinders may fit with out too much work, probably better metal than an original.

[Kev18]

Had an old 1858 Remy come in several years back that had about .025" cylinder gap. Customer wanted to shoot it so I gave it a test fire, ball bounced off a 2x4 and left a small dent. I don't think I would have tried welding up the cylinder but setting the barrel back would probably work fine. Would have to move the loading lever catch if the barrel is set back. One of the Italian cylinders may fit with out too much work, probably better metal than an original.

I have a pietta cylinder. It is HUGE comapred to the original. I heard uberti works but they are slightly short.

[Dan Cash]

It's definitely mild steel, i feel like it really won't be that bad. Especially how I weld... Im not good so I don't leave the welder on for a long amount of time. So it really doesn't heat up alot.
And if you can find a cylinder, il buy it... Il keep an eye out at gun shows.

Kevin, you ask advice then tell us how you feel others are all wrong so here is my recommendation: Charge the chambers with 100 grains each of Bullseye and a 200 grain bullet and go shooting. Enjoy. s/

[Bent Ramrod]

Of course, everything remains to be seen, but I don’t think the old iron cylinder of an original revolver would be any worse or weaker for a mild-steel facing job than it was originally.

I have a heavily customized smokeless-era Bisley Colt that was so worn it spit lead out the sides of the cylinder gap. Took it to the local gun shop to have it fixed. The remedy (routine, back in the Good Old Days before there were a lot of good replicas and replacement parts) was to weld up the ratchet star at the rear of the cylinder and recut the notches. Since then, I have fired some pretty maximum smokeless loads in it (.32-20) without untoward incident.

Of course, “the very next shot!!!” could blow the thing to bits. I could also get run over by a 1929 Essex on the Range parking lot. By all means, “proof” your cylinder by remote firing of incremental black powder charges up to the standard load. And recognize that you are on your own; nobody is “recommending” anything here. I’m rather fond of putting wrecks back into shooting condition myself, and I sympathize. And I’m not responsible for any trouble that the idiot of the future, who comes across one of my projects, makes for himself. Then, now, or any time, anybody who is in the “antiques business” had better know their stuff, and beware.

There are two ways to manage risks: figure out how to minimize the occurrences and/or consequences; or run away screaming. The OP lives in a socialist oligarchy that forbids its subjects the possession of handguns, including modern C&B replicas. He’s doing what he can to thread the legal obstacles so he can shoot his revolver. Best of luck to him, and by all means, keep an eye out for a usable original cylinder as a replacement.

[M-Tecs]

I was not aware the you could not own modern C&B replicas in Canada. Just one more reason to get this one functioning again.

Back to the cylinder issue. Remington was a pioneer in steel advancement usage in firearms. At one time I had dates of when and what materials where used. Unfortunately I lost that info in a hard drive failure. If I remember higher grade steels weren't used until after the early rolling blocks came out. Chances are the 1858 cylinder is wrought iron and not steel. The modern functional equivalent of wrought iron is mild or low carbon steel. Neither wrought iron nor mild steel contains enough carbon to be hardenable by heating and quenching so the heat from the welding should not be an issue UNLESS the mig wire has enough carbon to make it hardenable.

This is just for future reference but when welding up to holes carbon rods can be used control weld metal's flow.

http://www.stoodyind.com/Catalogs/FISC/current/05catpg197.pdf

[skeettx]

Watching this thread
What fun, what fun

[Kev18]

Kevin, you ask advice then tell us how you feel others are all wrong so here is my recommendation: Charge the chambers with 100 grains each of Bullseye and a 200 grain bullet and go shooting. Enjoy. s/

I never said anyone was wrong, im reading everything that has been written down. And also adding input. Calm down.

[Kev18]

Thanks for all the advice, il definitely try strapping it down to something the first times I shoot! I ordered a cylinder stop. Mine was brittle and broke. So I wont be shooting any time soon.

[blackbahart]

in canada we can and do have modern cap and ball revolvers.They are restricted and require the holder to be licensed by the gov and can only be used at approved ranges just like regular handguns.With antiques made before 1898 cap and ball and the approved go cartridges you do not require licensing to own .

Thats why people try to resurrect utter junk and have seen some real interesting repairs if one could call it that

[Texas by God]

Like back in time when you took your gun to the blacksmith to get it fixed. I feel sorry for Canadians.

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[JimB..]

May I ask the broader question, how would other folks have attempted to repair this? Setting the barrel back is one option. What about welding a steel plate to the front of the cylinder and then cutting the chambers? Drill and tap between chambers and bolt a plate on?

I’d be afraid of just building it up for all the reasons mentioned. I expect the cylinder to be no worse for wear, but expect that the build up will blow off sooner rather than later. Different rates of expansion and repeated impacts will be hard on it I think.

[Kev18]

May I ask the broader question, how would other folks have attempted to repair this? Setting the barrel back is one option. What about welding a steel plate to the front of the cylinder and then cutting the chambers? Drill and tap between chambers and bolt a plate on?

I’d be afraid of just building it up for all the reasons mentioned. I expect the cylinder to be no worse for wear, but expect that the build up will blow off sooner rather than later. Different rates of expansion and repeated impacts will be hard on it I think.

My only worry is pretty much the build up blowing off honestly. But Il shoot it with gloves and strap it down just to see the damage.

[M-Tecs]

May I ask the broader question, how would other folks have attempted to repair this? Setting the barrel back is one option..

If it was mine I would not do anything to either the frame or the cylinder. First I would try to modify a replacement replica cylinder and if that was not possible I would manufacture a new one. That is the benefit of being an toolmaker and a part time smith. If welding was the only option it would be tig welded with carbon plugs in the cylinders.

[John Taylor]

If it was mine I would not do anything to either the frame or the cylinder. First I would try to modify a replacement replica cylinder and if that was not possible I would manufacture a new one. That is the benefit of being an toolmaker and a part time smith. If welding was the only option it would be tig welded with carbon plugs in the cylinders.
That should raise the carbon content of the weld. While I have never welded on a cylinder I have shimmed the rear on a few old muzzle loaders to move the cylinder forward. This would create head space on a cartridge gun.Found out the easy way to repair a star on an 1849 Colt was to make a new one and bore the back of the cylinder out then solder it in place. Very easy to change the timing, just heat till the solder melts and turn the star a bit.

[M-Tecs]

That should raise the carbon content of the weld. .

Where is the carbon transferring from? With proper tig rod selection no carbon added.

With the carbon plug backers theoretically is possible for some carbon transfers if you arc directly to the carbon but I have never found this to be an issue when I repaired molds. Mostly they were tools steel and reheat treated after. I have used carbon flats on mild steel for corner buildup. A couple of times I water quenched as a test and I could not detect an increased surface hardness with a file or during machining when done as directed.

http://www.stoodyind.com/Catalogs/FISC/current/05catpg197.pdf

3. Fill the cavity with weld metal, taking care not to touch the carbon plates with the arc. The metal should be flowed into the corner to form a square edge.

In the event the carbon does transfer at the point of contact with the carbon transfer you would basically have a casehardened area that has not been quenched. If I was concerned about hardspots I would normalize the cylinder. https://www.instructables.com/id/Normalizing-Carbon-Steels/

Normalizing has little benefit for mild steel from a strength prospective it has great benefit for stress removal for things like tooling plates. Here it would resolve hard spots in the event of any carbon transfer. https://www.thebalance.com/how-does-steel-undergo-the-normalizing-process-2340017

[Texas by God]

I would have soldered a bushing around the forcing cone; then file for clearance. Keeping the frame cool with heat away or wet pack. But I hope I never have to do such a thing.

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