Slug alloys

[mdi]

I've got a fairly good handle on casting boolits for handguns and rifles; alloy, hardness, fit, methods, etc., but I just received a Lyman 525 Sabot Slug mold and am wondering about alloy/BHN. My first guess is relatively soft alloy, mebbe 9-10 (or my "mystery metal" alloy running 10-13 BHN depending on batch), but being a rookie shotshell caster, I dunno fer sure. Any thoughts?

[Hogtamer]

my groups tightened considerably using soft lead.

[Rcmaveric]

Slugs you normal cast of pure or almost pure. You want expansion at low velocities. It can be a real trouble to get the slugs to drop of the center pins if the alloy isnt almost pure. I had trouble even with range scraps dropping from the center pins.

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[megasupermagnum]

Definitely soft. Especially a wad slug like the lyman sabot slug, I am a firm believer that the best accuracy is going to be had with a looser fit (so the petals do not get mangled), and then the slug bumps up in the bore.

[gpidaho]

Most of my mystery lead runs to the soft side but I most likely run a little harder lead that the guys above. 10-12 Bhn would be my guess. Gp

[tomme boy]

You will want an alloy with 3-5% antimony like a factory slug is. It will still be soft but it will bump up like Megasuper is talking about. The Lymann sabots will shrink almost in half as the skirt collapses when fired. Hardest part to get that slug to shoot well is to make the skirt collapse the same every time. To do that the regular wads everyone uses don't work the greatest. You need to stack hard cards and hard wads like the factory fosters use.

[mdi]

How "hard" an under slug wad? Material and thickness? I'm really new at shot gun shooting/reloading so my questions will sound dirt simple to some, but only so much knowledge transfer from 30+ years of reloading centerfire happens... Thanks

Mold came yesterday and I'm searching my stash for "pure" or x-soft alloy...

[megasupermagnum]

You don't have to find any pure lead if you don't have it. Your you state you have alloy 10-13 bhn. That should be soft enough. I wouldn't bother casting with hardball, lyman #2, linotype, etc. But clip on wheel weight or softer is just fine. A hard card wad is usually sold as a "nitro card". A 20 gauge wad fits pretty good in a 12 gauge shotcup, although an 18 gauge is usually perfect. A 16 gauge is usually too tight. Along with nitro cards, you are going to want a hot glue gun to fill the slug hollow base.

As tomme boy says, regular plastic shot cups are less than ideal, but they can work. I've seen some very impressive groups from the Lyman sabot slug and just a wad. The factors that determine the best wad are going to be the hull you use, and your bore diameter. If you use a straight wall hull like a Federal gold medal, a Federal 12S4 might be a good wad. If you use a tapered hull like a Winchester AA, a Winchester AA12 wad might be a good choice. Remington hulls run a little tight for slugs.

[gpidaho]

mdi: First step is to find out what I.D is on your barrel if it's a fixed choke. Shotguns are all over the place. I have 12ga. barrels marked cylinder that are as small as .725. (Mossberg Maverick O U) This is Skeet to my way of thinking. My Mossberg 930, also a cylinder bore measures .732. Use Ajay's method of pushing your wad and projectile through the barrel and feel for proper fit. The fit should be firm but you should be able to push it through, not hammer it through. Glad you've joined in the fun. Be sure to post your results. Gp

[Hogtamer]

overfill the cavity with hot glue. trim off flush with warm knife after it cools and no card needed.

[mdi]

Thanks, guys. I'm beginning to get "the picture"...

[tomme boy]

I you are wondering what we are talking about with the skirt collapsing, take one of the lymann slugs and stand it up. Then take a hammer and hit it hard on the top flat of the slug. That is why they are telling you to fill the bottom with the glue. To prevent this from happening.

When I was loading these at the time I did not have a computer yet. All I had was magazines and a bunch of really old timers that got every shirt from the things they did. We would pick up the smashed slugs we shot all the time when cleaning the berms at our private range. We always thought they got flattened from the impact. It wasn't till I talked to a few smart guys on here that are not on this forum anymore that I was let in on the cause.

Just a little helpful info for you. And don't be too concerned with roll crimping. I have seen some really awesome groups fired at 100yds with a plain fold crimp.

Another little bit of info you will need. Your cases. Lots of people pick up their cases at the local gun range. Usually you can get about 3 good firings out of a case. Then you will start to have problems with the crimp pressure. Once you find a really good load, shoot a few cases that have been reloaded about 5-6 times and see what your groups will do. I found this as I have 10's of thousands of 1x fired AA and Rem Premiere and STS hulls. So I just kept loading 1x fired cases and set them aside till a got around to them again. Well I did. And I grabbed the wrong box of hulls one day. They were from trap loads that had 6 firings. I could not keep a 3" group load to stay inside 12" at 100 yds. I know 12" group most people would still be fine with that. But not when the load normally shoots at 3" or a little under. I went back to my 1x fired cases and the groups went right back like they were before.

[Petander]

I you are wondering what we are talking about with the skirt collapsing, take one of the lymann slugs and stand it up. Then take a hammer and hit it hard on the top flat of the slug. That is why they are telling you to fill the bottom with the glue. To prevent this from happening.


A harder alloy prevents this from happening too,doesn't it?

[jmort]

Look at the alloy Dixie Slus uses in their dangerous game slugs
Really hard, just for that reason
Soft Foster slugs disintegrate

[mdi]

Great info! I have two manuals; Lyman #5 and BPI "Advances Manual", and neither gives much info on slug reloading. I don't want to be a pest, but so far this is the most, the clearest info I've found yet. Thanks.

I sold my last shotgun, an Ithaca M 37 in the mid '70s, and just a couple months ago walked past an Armscor/RIA M5 that was on sale, so I just had to buy it. I have an aversion against factory ammo, just me, no real reason, but I prefer reloading my own and have been doing so since 1969. I regard youtube reloading videos as a waste of time (I've seen too many really questionable videos) and prefer manuals and texts. So, I'll probably ask a bunch of bottom line simple questions. Bear with me...

[gpidaho]

When filling the slugs with hot glue, I use a small rectangle of aluminum step flashing sprayed with Pam cooking oil. I just slightly overfill the slug and push the slugs hollow base down tight to the flashing, wiggling it side to side a bit. When the glue sets it's easy to scrape the excess off the edge with your thumbnail. I think it was Longbow that posted this before but it may have been another member, I forget. Works for me. Gp

[white eagle]

when I was casting full bore slugs I made them out of Lyman #2
casting hard for penetration but using a cup or sabot I would use
a way softer alloy

[longbow]

My experience even using ACWW and thick skirted slugs is that generally skirts collapse or "bell". A filler in the HB stops that and also keeps wads from being pushed into the HB cavity.

I can say positively that Lyman Foster slug cast from pure lead swell up to bore diameter from 0.705". I found that out when shooting into deep soft snow then retrieving slugs. It was also obvious that they were tipped as they obturated because the noses were all at different angles as were the trailing edges of the skirts. That jump through the forcing cone doesn't do slugs any favours!

I can also say that I have made several slug moulds that cast slugs with very thick skirts and every time I have recovered slugs that are not filled the skirts are collapsed or belled out. The belling out issue seems to be due to nitro card wads being pushed part way into the cavity and pressing outwards on the skirt. These were all ACWW slugs.

I did find that heat treating WW slugs stopped the collapse and belling with normal to thick skirts. I'm lazy though so heat treating is not something I want to do for every slug plus sometimes you want expansion... or I do anyway.

Also, pretty much every factory Foster slug I have recovered from our berm is short and fat with rifling ribs smeared/flattened and wad impressions in the base. Makes me wonder how factory slugs can be so accurate but there you go! All the Lyman sabot slugs I have recovered also show collapsed skirts.

Now just because a skirt collapses doesn't mean the slug can't be accurate. If the collapse is the same every time there shouldn't be any issue kinda like the guys that shoot bore diameter PP boolits in BP cartridges ~ they obturate to fill the groove diameter. However, with slugs there are more variables and a jump to the forcing cone if using 2 3/4" hulls in 3" chamber (I'm guilty here!) and through the forcing cone. There is a chance for the slug to tip before it is in the bore. Wad column and crimp quality likely have a significant effect here.

I think a solid wad column is one of the most important aspects of slug loading. Recently Ranch Dog posted his successful loading procedure using no plastic gas seal and just nitro card wad over the powder then hard card wad column under a shotcup with no cushion leg with Lee slug inside. He did not fill the slug but the drive key helps keep wads out anyway and with all that hard card wad column there is likely less chance of the top card distorting and getting into the cavity.

So, I guess the short story is that slugs certainly do collapse/obturate in the bore. Filling HB cavities in soft slugs can stop the collapse and keep wads out. Hard slugs may not collapse but wads can still get jammed into cavity with no filler. If you use a hard card wad column with nitro card wad on top and a hard slug with no filler you may be okay. I'll carry on using filler because I don't believe it can hurt and I know it can help. I use hot melt glue as gp describes ~ overfill the cavity then invert the slug on a piece of greased steel and push down to squeeze excess glue out and leave a flat base. Hogtamer overfills then slices the extra glue off. That works too.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

I had one problem with water dropped WW. I shot my chrono. The skirt collapsed and fractured. The piece that cracked off went right through my chrono. It may have been a bad slug to begin with???? But I think it was the too hard and brittle lead.

[longbow]

I've had heat treated slugs break up but that was on impact. However, it is possible that the skirt cracked on yours when dropped off the pin if the alloy was still a bit hot. I've had boolits and slugs crack if I get casting a bit too fast. Mould heats up and alloy is still a bit soft and brittle when I open the mould. Generally the boolit or slug has an obvious crack or is bent (yes, bent!) when examined.

Can't say I've had one break up when shooting but... I have had an occasional flyer which could be a faulty slug.

Soft alloy slugs usually aren't a problem but wheelweights and range scrap can be.

Longbow

[Taylor]

Define faulty slug please. For instance...246532 Looks great at 50 yards, but at 100 yards it looks like a pattern and not a group. I'm talking bad, 12-15 inches.The gun is a Savage 220, the alloy is 50/50. I have cast some in pure lead, but can't get to the range til Monday. The slug is a Accurate 62-360s and Longshot.

[megasupermagnum]

Define faulty slug please. For instance...246532 Looks great at 50 yards, but at 100 yards it looks like a pattern and not a group. I'm talking bad, 12-15 inches.The gun is a Savage 220, the alloy is 50/50. I have cast some in pure lead, but can't get to the range til Monday. The slug is a Accurate 62-360s and Longshot.

In your case, that bullet is so short and stubby, it may just not be stable to 100 yards.

[Taylor]

That same set up works great in my 12 ga. Normally I might agree, but this happens with factory ammo too. Federal, Remington, Hornady and Winchester. This gun don't like nuthin. Starting to think it may be the scope. Brand new Redfield.

[Ranch Dog]

I had one problem with water dropped WW. I shot my chrono. The skirt collapsed and fractured. The piece that cracked off went right through my chrono. It may have been a bad slug to begin with???? But I think it was the too hard and brittle lead.
Same here. Just a BB size something through the screen and it went very deep. It was kind of stupid when I thought about it, on me, the data is recorded on my phone via Bluetooth, I don't need to see the screen. I now block the front of the chrony with a piece of plywood mounted on a tripod.

[Ranch Dog]

Taylor, what are you using behind the slug? What about chamber length vs. hull length? Finally, what crimp?

[megasupermagnum]

That same set up works great in my 12 ga. Normally I might agree, but this happens with factory ammo too. Federal, Remington, Hornady and Winchester. This gun don't like nuthin. Starting to think it may be the scope. Brand new Redfield.

Definitely try a different scope. If you still can't get any of the popular factory slugs to even stay on paper, it might be a good idea to send it back to Savage.

[shadowjames]

dead soft lead sheet lead or plumbing pipe no wheel weights lino or hard lead

[a danl]

i shoot the lyman foster and i don't use pure lead , i just make sure i can gouge it with my fingernail. that way i can play around with changing it to suit my needs.

[Ranch Dog]

Definitely try a different scope. If you still can't get any of the popular factory slugs to even stay on paper, it might be a good idea to send it back to Savage.
I'm a Weaver guy and had a conversation with a technician concerning scopes on a shotgun. All of their non-rimfire offerings are good to go on a shotgun. What he did say with any scope on a heavy recoil firearm, the scope should be operating near the center of its adjustments. As you get out to the limits of adjustments, you can see a variation in POI simply from the view through the scope plus the damage they've seen out at the limits of adjustment.

I've experienced the POI variation when I had a scout mount added to a Rossi 92 480 Ruger. I had a custom mount made, but the need to maintain a certain thickness of the base dictated that it not wholly compensate for the taper of the barrel. The effort was to keep the base and scope as low as possible on the barrel. I have several dozen scout rifles, they all use the Weaver Classic K4 Scout. The effect once sending heaving bullets downrange 100 yards and beyond, meant that the verticle adjustment was near its limit. The gunsmith recommended what Weaver did, so rather than try a different scope, I used Burris Signature Rings with inserts. The gunsmith hit the nail on the head; it took the 20º offsets that he recommended. Since then, as I get very off of center, I keep track of verticle and horizontal offset from center, I used the referenced Burris rings for the offset and shoot the scope with the reticle centered. I use half of the turrets adjustment range as a limit before I switch rings as these rings are expensive

I just received a 12G laser bore sighter. I should have bought one a long time ago. I started over on my 695; it won't take much for me to switch rings to the Burris. I even used it with my open sighted Western Field 170. That smoothbore was shooting to the lower-left corner of an 8.5x11 target. That's exactly were the sights were pointing. The rear sight has vertical and horizontal adjustments; it's now centered. That $9 purchase is going to save a lot of shooting.

[tomme boy]

Get the Burris signature Z rings with the inserts. They have 0,5,10,20 thousandths offsets to zero your scope.

[nicholst55]

Has anyone recovered slugs fired through a lengthened forcing cone? Just wondering if they show less distortion of the nose?

[rifle vs gun]

Hi , does anyone have any experience with bore riding slugs. I have just built a 12 bore gun for a competition we shoot. I have run a few 850gr pure lead slugs through it over 24gr of Trail Boss. As expected it has leaded up more than I want( any is more than I want if possible). It has been suggested to run an alloy of between 20:1 to 30:1 of lead:tin. BTW we are star crimping the shells and running a cut down wad, the rifle is chambered to 2 3/4" and is .729" using a Pac Nor barrel. Any advice appreciated. Mark.

[megasupermagnum]

Hi , does anyone have any experience with bore riding slugs. I have just built a 12 bore gun for a competition we shoot. I have run a few 850gr pure lead slugs through it over 24gr of Trail Boss. As expected it has leaded up more than I want( any is more than I want if possible). It has been suggested to run an alloy of between 20:1 to 30:1 of lead:tin. BTW we are star crimping the shells and running a cut down wad, the rifle is chambered to 2 3/4" and is .729" using a Pac Nor barrel. Any advice appreciated. Mark.

Is this a brass or plastic/paper case? Being you are shooting such heavy slugs, I'm going to assume this is a rifled gun. I'm really surprised you got leading. From personal experience, I've ran both 20:1 and clip on wheel weight alloys bare with no leading. Lube would help for sure. 24 grains seems like a large volume of trail boss. Are you still using a wad under your slugs?

[gpidaho]

Rifle vs. Gun I believe you and I shoot different weapons and for an entirely different reason, mine not being competitive. Therefore I don't know the rules of your game. I find that powder coated bore riding slugs don't lead the bore, smooth or rifled. I know, not the traditional way. Gp

[rifle vs gun]

Hi Megasupermagnum thanks for the reply, I am running Winchester ranger plastic cases, the slug isn't rifled the bore is. The slugs are only Allox lubed. I have a cut down wad under the slug. I agree the harder the alloy I should get less leading. I am going to grab some 20:1 later this week and give it a run, my new mould should be ready by then too. Shoot straight ol mate

[megasupermagnum]

Is there any chance these are hollow base slugs? I have had wads push into the hollow cavity causing all kinds of problems. The fix for that is to fill the cavity with hot glue.

[rifle vs gun]

Hi GP, yip, I shoot holes in bits of paper and I reckon you shoot things to eat. I will get a some out of the new mould powder coated to see, but I am sure you are right. My rifle is a Greener GP with a Pac Nor barrel, sights fitted and new massive for-end( similar to the real old Beretta beavertail, picked one up 40 years ago and loved it). We shoot over 25,50 and 100 metres(fat yards). Thanks for the reply.

[rifle vs gun]

248152
I have brought a new mould from an Australian company, Cast Bullet Engineering. This one according to the description should be a little lighter at 780gr. Its a flat base.

[longbow]

That is my all time favourite design. I lust for an H&H Paradox gun to shoot one in. I will never have the H&H Paradox gun but I may yet get the boolit mould.

That design might work through rifled choke tube and certainly should work well from fully rifled gun. I am a bit surprised that more people haven't posted results from those boolits. I have read posts from people buying or intending to buy the mould but I don't think I have seen a single range report. Maybe there are some on shotgunworld or nitroexpress.

I will be very interested to see some range reports on those babies! CBE is the only outfit I know of making what appears to be a faithful copy of the old Paradox boolits.

I like it!

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

There's your bear slug Kent! But at 780 grns even if it kills the bear you're still gonna be wounded!

[longbow]

I've been toying with the idea of getting Accurate to make a mould for HB then I can make my own HB pin. Tom can't cut the big groove the way the Kynoch original was (like the CBE) but he can make come close. With the HB it might work for smoothbore but mostly it would drop weight to a reasonable level.

If launched mildly apparently even the really heavy slugs aren't that bad to shoot. I've shot 800 gr. slugs but those were over a healthy (unhealthy for me) load of Blue Dot. Those weren't too pleasant to shoot! Greg Sappintgon says his 1000 gr. slug isn't bad at all at around 1000 FPS but it still penetrates deeply. Those heavy slugs are hard to stop!

For the most part though I figure 400 to 600 grs. is a "sweet spot" for weight of 12 ga. slugs. Less lead consumed, less recoil... at least with hefty loads and plenty of poop for most needs as Randy points out.

Since we're on an "slug alloys" thread that comes into it too. I mostly cast from range scrap or ACWW and sometimes oven heat treated WW. I used to cast my Lyman Fosters from pure lead. So far I have had 0 problem with leading even with the pure lead slugs. Not sure how it goes with rifled guns as I have only shot one rifled gun and about 15 rounds of unlubed ACWW 0.735" RB's went through it. Not a spec of lead came out.

I can see soft lead slugs causing some grief in rifled guns though.

What I will be interested in is a range report from rifle vs gun with pics of recovered slugs if possible. I'd like to see if his soft lead CBE Paradox slugs mushroom well. I expect they will but would like to see some. If I ever get one of those CBE moulds I'd like the HP version just because but it is substantially pricier then the solid version. I guess if a guy like me wants a few HP's its likely more cost effective to drill them. I do like recovered mushroomed boolits!

Need pics of mushroomed Paradox boolits!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes wounding will happen!

Randy

[lead-1]

I have decent accuracy with my Lee 1 oz. slugs made of straight wheel weights in a cylinder bore barrel, BUT, these are only plinking/fun shoot rounds.
Do you all think these wouldn't do the job on a deer shot inside of 75 yards? I still have a bunch of factory loaded slugs to hunt with if I decide to but I never thought my cast slugs would be a problem.

[pashiner]

I think you'd be fine if you can keep them in the vitals. Even at 1000fps, you're going to put a BIG hole in a deer.

[megasupermagnum]

I really doubt you have the accuracy for a 75 yard shot, but the energy certainly is there. I couldn't keep shots under 4" at 50 yards with any lee slug, let alone 75. Not many have done better.

[lead-1]

Thanks for the input, 75 yards was a guestimate as 35-40 yards is the farthest I "think" I have shot these slugs.

[Optimist]

Little different slant here. I've been shooting the old Brenneke pattern slugs for quite a few years now. Rottweil loads a version, as does Brenneke. These things got a large flat on the end with a lip on it, and they seem to be cast pretty hard. Anybody on here ever salvage lead from one to measure hardness?

[centershot]

IMHO, the Brenneke slug is still the king of the "Foster-style" slugs, although the Federal True-Ball is a close second. Many of us have pursued the "attached base wad" style of slug for a while now, with varying degrees of success. I do believe that the Brenneke's are harder than other slugs and that , at last partially, that is a factor in their success. Perhaps the 3-D printed basewads will be the answer we have waited for........