Very light loads for ancient top break revolvers

[fatelk]

Does anyone here shoot an old top break revolver, the type that was cheap and popular from the 1890's into the early 20th century?

I have one that I used to shoot occasionally a long time ago. I came to a point where I figured it was so old and so cheap that it probably wasn't safe to shoot. I still occasionally shot it, but with light loads. I ran across a bunch of .38 S&W brass and was thinking it would be fun to shoot it a little more. I'm wanting to shoot only very light loads through it. I think someone here once referred to these kind of guns as "unsafe at any speed".

I have some .380" lead round balls (80gr), thought I'd push them through a .359" sizer and then powder coat, then load them up with a couple grains of Bullseye. Anyone else doing this kind of thing?

[Winger Ed.]

I had a .38S&W top break Webley and shot it a bunch with DE wad cutters and a minimum-ish listed charge of Unique.
Same with a 1920s or so Colt in .38Spec.

I never had any problems with them.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I have a top break Webley that someone converted to .45Colt.
My gunsmith said it was safe to shoot with factory level loads. I used to shoot it but it was wildly inaccurate. Too large a bore for .45cal bullets.
I haven't fired it in probably 10 years.

[Green Frog]

fatelk,

The phrase, "an old top break revolver" takes in a lot of territory. If you have one of the old S&Ws of that era, your shooting options are a lot different from what you would have with one of the Spanish or Belgian pieces of junk that were imported around the turn of the last century. If you want to INSURE safety, after checking the condition thoroughly (or having it checked by a pro) you might consider shooting 32 S&W (Short) 85 gr RN bullets loaded with black powder. If anything is safe in this gun, that load will be. You need to remember to clean thoroughly after each use, of course.

Froggie

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'd like to ramble on a bit about the subject of "cheap" top break revolvers -- just a few thoughts.

In general, taken as a category, I absolutely despise them. There were dozens of manufacturers, both domestic and foreign, and the quality and strength varies from very poor to not so good, with only a few exceptions. Some of those exceptions would be Smith & Wesson and Webley. Webley's looks are deceiving. My dad used to say that they reminded him of an old house built in the late 1800s or early 1900s with the cast iron plumbing on the outside - unattractive. However, they are a strong design and served the British well in a military capacity for about a century. S&Ws products were always nicely made and reliable if maintained, but with the possible exception of the Schofield, their latch was not as strong as the Webley's. S&Ws were, however, adopted for military issue by Russia, Turkey, and the U.S. Again, in general, the top breaks were plagued by poor/fragile designs, poor manufacture, soft metal.

These problems limited the calibers to which they could be chambered, as the top break mechanism of most wasn't up to high pressure cartridges. Certainly they were all able to fire the cartridge for which chambered when they left the factory, but how many rounds thereafter was nebulous. That's why the vast majority are encountered in various .32 loadings and the .38 S&W.

Two borderline manufacturers were Harrington & Richardson and Iver Johnson. Neither firm is still with us. They have their vociferous defenders, but their much loved faithful old top breaks were usually .22s, a chambering suitable for the design's strength.

I think that the top break had a historical niche, kind of like the Jennings J-22 or Pheonix 22s in that when you laid your money on the counter you knew that you weren't getting the best quality firearm, but it was affordable defense which was better than no defense. The top breaks were eclipsed by better designs. There are folks that collect them, but there are folks that collect anything including bottle caps and match books. Shooting them with reduced loads is about the only way to shoot them, if shoot them you must. Wear eye protection. After about the first 2 years
of my gunsmithing career I refused to work on them.

Do I own any? Yes, 3 of them, a Webley Mk.VI, a Webley Mk. IV, and a Uberti Schofield replica. Seldom fired, they languish in the gun locker, more of interest to me as examples of design than carry guns.
Successful examples of an otherwise bad idea.

DG

[fatelk]

That’s been my understanding too, that most of them are just wall hangers. They were made cheaply, often from inferior materials. I don’t have much interest in shooting it often, just occasionally for nostalgia.

Mine is an old U.S. Revolver Co. gun in .38 S&W. My understanding is that it was made by Iver Johnson, and designed for modern smokeless ammunition. I have another, a Forehand & Wadsworth, but it’s missing parts. I’ve thought it might be a fun project someday to repair and shoot it.

[reddog81]

I've used 2 grains bullseye with a 148 grain HBWC in a couple of S&W breaktops. Seat the bullet so about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the bullet sticks out of the case. The pressure is less than the standard black powder load. I like the HBWC because in theory the base should expand to help seal the bore.

With a light load you aren't going to blow up the gun, but there is always the chance of something mechanical happening. These aren't like guns being made today with the expectation that you would shoot box after box of ammo through them on a weekly basis. I always laugh when someone asks how many rounds a S&W 686 can handle before something breaks, or the barrel is shot out, or something similar. It's such an absurd question with no realistic way to answer, but with an old Iver Johnson break top the round count could probably be measured in the thousands if not less. I have no empirical evidence to support this other than it's more common to find then in disrepair than in good working order and most don't seem to have been abused or shot an extreme amount..

[fatelk]

I read somewhere that the idea on low budget stuff like this was that it was something to load and put in a sock drawer. They weren’t shot recreationally, and a box or two of ammo might be the life of the gun. It’s a lot different now. Modern budget guns like a High Point or a Rough Rider are expected to last for thousands of rounds.

[Drm50]

I've had a lot of Saturday Night Special top breaks in 22-32-38 and if in good condition I've shot them just for grins. I had a S&W 44 Russian that I shot a good bit. It was a good solid gun but I shot 185 cast and light loads in it just for fun. I've had several S&W 32s & 38 top breaks and shot them with factory ammo but just occasionally for fun. I had a Brit 455 top break and never shot it. Right now I have a Colt NS 455 that is in high condition. It's swing out cylinder. I use a modified 45/70 mold to cast a 272gr bullet and size to .457" over load of 4.5gr unique. In 600fps range. Arrived at powder charge to print sight at 25'. I fired up to 6.0grs Unique while I was fooling with it. Cast from pure lead, very good shooter at 25'. Other than targets the only thing I've shot is a unlucky coyote that I shot in the guts at about 15'. I ruined his day big time. Bore is .456", it's just a fun gun and I'm not interested in jacking it up. It's over 100yrs old.

[Larry Gibson]

I have two older "cheap" 38 S&W top break revolvers (both made for smokeless loads) in "good condition" that I shoot once in a while. I occasionally shoot factory loads in them but most often shoot my own load. That is the Lee 356-105-SWC (as cast at .361 lubed w/LLA) over 2.5 gr Bullseye in Winchester and Remington solid head cases with WSP primers. The measured psi of this load is less (barely measureable with strain gauge) than the SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W.

I did an extensive pressure test of factory and various loads for Ed Harris with the results posted on the CBA forum.

There's also a lot of pressure test of 32 S&W and 32 S&WL factory and reloaded cartridges in several current threads on this forum. I also have some other 32s loaded to pressure test including some BP loads in both cartridges.....just waiting to get it done to post that data......

[fatelk]

Thank you Larry! I have that same mold, forgot I had it because I haven't used it in so long. I think I'll cast a few and try that load in this old gun.

It's funny, normally when I'm working up a new load I consult my numerous books and manuals to get a feel for where minimum and maximum for the combination of components I'm using. In this case I'm looking for the minimum usable load just to make the gun go bang. From all my searching around, that sounds like a good load for it, or at least a great place to start.

[yeahbub]

Aaaawww, c'mon, DG, don't be so vague! Tell us what you really think.

I agree. I never saw one that I really trusted unless it was S&W and in tight condition with factory grade ammo. As for H&R's, some fellow once approached me to load some .38 S&W for him "that's really powerful". I took one look at the .050 barrel/cylinder gap and the rattling loose condition and told him he'd be better off retiring it and showed him some tolerance differences between it and my GP100. He was unhappy, but he heard me out as to why he should.

[KCSO]

For the 32's I load 2 grains of Trail boss and a round ball coated with allox. Samo samo for the 38 a 360 RB.

[onelight]

My father-in-law had and old S&W break top in 38 S&W for defense about 40% of the nickel gone he got it out to show me and the cylinder would not lock at all , I showed him and told him it was not safe to shoot he told me it shoots fine loaded it up and put it back in the drawer .
Guess what he left me when he passed .
He was a great guy and we miss him but could be a little bull headed .

[9.3X62AL]

The break-top action idea had its advantages.......over gate-loading SAA-series systems, mostly. I have one such arm that gets some shooting, A Webley-Enfield 38/200 from WWII. I run the NEI #169A (202 grains in soft alloy) at about 675 FPS through it.

For those wanting to create ammo for the 38 S&W, be advised that from a dimensional standpoint the 38 S&W is a VERY different animal than the 38 Special/357 Magnum. I have 5 of these critters in my safe--1 has throats at .359", 2 have .361" throats, and two have .363" throats. Case diameter is .387" in 38 S&W, .379" in 38/357. 38 S&W cases usually have thicker brass than 38 Special, as well.

[Walks]

I have both My Grandmother's old Top Breaks. One is a S&W Safety Hammerless (LemonSqueezer) in .32S&W. It's Nickle Plated. It has Factory Issue Mother of Pearl Grips with Medallions. It's in 98% Condition.
And a H&R Blue 5 shot .38S&W with about 25% of the Blue turning brown

Both Revolvers are tight and index perfectly. Tight as a drum.

My Dad took Both My Grandmother's out to shot about every 2-3years from the end of WWII until 1979. They Both passed in Oct.1979.

A box of shells each, every time. I ended up with both Revolvers. But none of My Dad's reloading/casting stuff for them.
Bought a box of shells for each, shot half a box through each, cleaned and buried in Safe.

Fast forward to 1987, got into Cowboy Shooting. Broke both Revolvers out, got dies & molds. Loaded ammo using info from Lyman Cast Bullet Handbbook #2.

I've put at least 500 rounds through both Revolvers in the past 30+yrs.
Powder Puff loads.

Both are as tight as the day they came from their Factory's.

Set up 5 or 6 Clay Pigeons at 10ft, usually hit 2 out 3. They can be fun.

Just load light and have fun.

I seem to remember the Speer #9 had a section on the .38S&W were the had some loads that used their HBWC seated half way out of the case. Never tried it Myself, but might be a good place to start.

Four of My Cowboy Action Shooting Partners had .32S&W's or .32S&W Longs,
They only bought .32Short&Wimpy ammo and all of them gave me their fired brass.
I must have 15boxes plus. It was a great way to introduce My Kids to Cowboy Shooting in a Ruger SSM.
Only Complaint I had was the Blasted moly coated Bear Creek Bullets would pop out of my fingers trying to seat them.

[onelight]

Walks you have a good memory.:p
From Speer no.9
246435

[Reverend Al]

I have a number of early top break S&W's in .32 and .38 and don't shoot them a great deal, but for the .38 S&W's I have an original 146 grain round nose mould and load an ultra-conservative load of 1.5 grains of Bullseye. I lucked into about 200 rounds of factory Remington .32 S&W (shorts) and haven't shot 50 rounds of them yet, so will likely never load for the .32's. Haven't hurt any of them yet ...

[Petrol & Powder]

I'd like to ramble on a bit about the subject of "cheap" top break revolvers -- just a few thoughts.

In general, taken as a category, I absolutely despise them. There were dozens of manufacturers, both domestic and foreign, and the quality and strength varies from very poor to not so good, with only a few exceptions. Some of those exceptions would be Smith & Wesson and Webley. Webley's looks are deceiving. My dad used to say that they reminded him of an old house built in the late 1800s or early 1900s with the cast iron plumbing on the outside - unattractive. However, they are a strong design and served the British well in a military capacity for about a century. S&Ws products were always nicely made and reliable if maintained, but with the possible exception of the Schofield, their latch was not as strong as the Webley's. S&Ws were, however, adopted for military issue by Russia, Turkey, and the U.S. Again, in general, the top breaks were plagued by poor/fragile designs, poor manufacture, soft metal.

These problems limited the calibers to which they could be chambered, as the top break mechanism of most wasn't up to high pressure cartridges. Certainly they were all able to fire the cartridge for which chambered when they left the factory, but how many rounds thereafter was nebulous. That's why the vast majority are encountered in various .32 loadings and the .38 S&W.

Two borderline manufacturers were Harrington & Richardson and Iver Johnson. Neither firm is still with us. They have their vociferous defenders, but their much loved faithful old top breaks were usually .22s, a chambering suitable for the design's strength.

I think that the top break had a historical niche, kind of like the Jennings J-22 or Pheonix 22s in that when you laid your money on the counter you knew that you weren't getting the best quality firearm, but it was affordable defense which was better than no defense. The top breaks were eclipsed by better designs. There are folks that collect them, but there are folks that collect anything including bottle caps and match books. Shooting them with reduced loads is about the only way to shoot them, if shoot them you must. Wear eye protection. After about the first 2 years
of my gunsmithing career I refused to work on them.

..................

DG

/\ This pretty much mirrors my view.

For the most part, the cheap, small caliber top break revolvers are now a novelty at best. I know some people defend the concept but I'm not one of those defenders. The Webley's and Enfield's are in a different category and I hold those in higher regard.

[rintinglen]

I have a Forehand and Wadsworth 38 S&W with a 3 inch barrel that I have fired with factory 38 S&W Remington Ammunition as well as a handload of a 150 grain 358-477 over 2.3 grains of WW-231. The gun is capable of playing card groups at 7 yards, but that trigger pull is something else. There is an advertisement from back around the turn of the 20th century where in a cute little girl is depicted playing with the "safety" revolver. I doubt that any 5 year old who ever lived could pull the trigger on the one I have.

But I keep it because of the story that came with it. Back in the 1930's, it was owned by a part-time constable in Wisconsin as his duty weapon. He worked a couple nights a week to make a little depression era money to help keep his family fed. It came to his nephew when the old boy passed away. I bought it some 30 years ago for 20 dollars, IIRC, just because.

[mac60]

fatelk - I have 2 IJ top breaks. .32 S&W and .38 S&W.

246517

I shoot both of them from time to time. Both were fun projects. The sights are horrible, the design wasn't the strongest and the accuracy of both leave a lot to be desired, but they're an interesting part of firearms history. In the case of the .32 - it's hard to believe this was once considered suitable for self defense. Over the winter, when I got through with the .32 I fired a cyl. full out the shop door at the ground. I found 2 of the 5 bullets on top of the ground - the other 3 I dug out with my finger. The .32 I shoot with a Lee TL 90 gr. swc over 1.2 gr unique. The .38 I shoot with a Lee TL 158 gr. RN over 2.3 gr. unique. There are a few books dealing with the history of IJ - good reading. At one time the Iver Johnson arms and cycle works in Fitchburg, Ma. was the largest firearms maker in the country.

[Geraldo]

I've shot my Iver Johnson .38S&W with black powder under a commercially cast boolit. It's fun, probably not too dangerous, and accurate enough for what it is.

[Larry Gibson]

Many think there's something "broke" with the Iver Johnsons because many models don't fully lock the cylinder in place unless the trigger is pulled back. The cylinder will spin freely in mine (yes it is supposed to) with the trigger forward. Also the safety lever in the face of triggers in guns these days which everyone thinks is a great "new idea".....isn't new at all. The Iver Johnson has one......

The Harrington & Richardson does have a regular bolt stop notch and does lock up. It doesn't have the safety lever though.

Both lock up tight and shoot well with factory 32 S&W and my previously mentioned 105 gr SWC reloads. Interesting and fun guns to shoot given what they were made for.

246583

[FergusonTO35]

I have a little 1970's Charter Arms Undercover .38 Special that serves as my around the house gun. I feed it .38 S&W equivalent loads: 150 grain SWC at 650 fps. It is easy to shoot and the heavy for caliber lead slug should have decent penetration. So, I can certainly see the usefulness of the .38 S&W cartridge.




But I keep it because of the story that came with it. Back in the 1930's, it was owned by a part-time constable in Wisconsin as his duty weapon. He worked a couple nights a week to make a little depression era money to help keep his family fed. It came to his nephew when the old boy passed away. I bought it some 30 years ago for 20 dollars, IIRC, just because.

Weren't US Postal Inspectors issued .38 Lemon Squeezers at some point?

[fatelk]

I loaded up some 105gr loads with a pinch of Bullseye. The closest sizer I have is .359" so I sized them before powder coating them, and they came out right at .361", and push through the cylinder throats perfectly. I'll shoot some next time I get to the range.

Here's a project gun that I might try to fix up someday. It's not in bad shape, other than missing a number of small parts. It's a Forehand & Wadsworth 1901, also in .38 S&W. Numrich lists parts for it, but everything this one needs is "out of stock". It's sure not worth putting much into, but maybe someday I'll get around to it.

246687246688

[Alferd Packer]

I too have a top break in 38S&W and two in 32 S&W.
The 38 is questionable and the two 32s lock up tight. I love shooting them, but the 32s get soft 77 grain lead over black powder.
I shoot the 38 and the 32s with wax slugs and with glue boolits just to pop a cap in them. Only a primer powered slugs, but I get a kick out of shooting them all none the less.
No stress on these old girls and I don't have to worry about them flying apart.

[uscra112]

Gee, I've had my Dad's old .32 S&W Iver Johnson since he passed in 1997. Have fired maybe one full box of factory ammo through it just for grins. It hasn't blown up or broken down. What am I doing wrong?

Also shoot a WW2 war finish Enfield (Webley) .38/200 with a 198 grain soft lead hollowpoint and 1.7 grains of Bullseye. It seems perfectly happy, although not target grade accurate due to it being the DAO tanker's model.

[Larry Gibson]

FYI;

Recently I pressure tested some 32 S&W loads.

Some old WRA factory with 88 gr RNL bullets over 7+ gr 4fg BP in balloon head cases went bang very nicely and ran at 10,800 psi.

Another lot of WRA with 88 gr RNL bullets over 7+ gr BP in solid head cases ran 16,200 psi.

Winchester 88 gr Lubaloy of recent manufacture had 1.8 gr of a ball powder in solid head cases and ran 18,900 psi

Remington UMC 88 gr RNL of relatively recent manufacture had 1.0 gr of flake powder in solid head cases and ran 13,300 psi.

Many older manuals show 1.5 gr Bullseye to be a max load with 88 - 98 gr cast bullets. The Hercules data showed 2.5 gr. I tested 1.5 gr Bullseye under the Lee 90 gr SWC seated to the 2nd lube groove. It ran 19,300 psi.....!!!

The old Hercules Data, circa 1968, give a load of 2.3 gr Red dot as a load with a 88 gr RNL bullet. I used a 90 gr Lee SWC loaded out to the 2nd lube groove. 1.5 gr Rd Dot ran 20,400 psi....!!! The max load of 2.3 gr ran 32,500 psi........yikes......

I also tested 5 gr GOEX 4fg in solid head cases under the Lee 90 gr SWC. Out of 10 shots I got one psi measurement of 9,400 psi. The other nine shots were less than that.

[uscra112]

I've got two boxes of Magtech .32 S&W of very recent manufacture. Wonder what it tests at.

[Walks]

That pressure testing is;

"FREAKING ME OUT, MAN !!!!"

The .32Short&Wimpy's I used to load for My Kids Ruger SSM when they were little, had less recoil the the same Revolver in .22LR.

I just find it difficult to comprehend that those factory loads don't blow guns to pieces.

They just might be stronger then people say.

[Ajohns]

I've been using a third model Smith 38 for some years. I seem to stick with 2.2grs of titegroup and a 148 hollow base wc, both Remington and Speer shoot well. Shoots very nice to about 15yds. I modified some old Pachmayr grips and now it fits my hand good.

247543

[Larry Gibson]

BTW; the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&W is 17,000 psi while the SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi.

SAAMI MAPs are developed based on factory loadings and with old BP/smokeless powder loadings not always to the lowest denominator.

[Wayne Smith]

I have my grandmother's muff gun - H&R 32 top break. I remember Dad shooting it at an old, rusty burn barrel and the slug bounced off. A .22 Short punched through both sides. I load a sized buckshot and 1gr Bullseye and have fun with it.

[Larry Gibson]

I suggest a great deal of caution be used loading the diminutive 32 S&W cartridge. Any variation in seating depth (not to be confused with the OAL) can and does have a great effect on the pressure given it's very small case capacity. I've recently pressure tested some factory 32 S&W cartridges and some older "recommended loads" using the Lee TL314-90-SWC sized .314 and seated out to the 2nd lube groove. I recently posted this on another related thread;

FYI;

Recently I pressure tested some 32 S&W loads.

Some old WRA factory with 88 gr RNL bullets over 7+ gr 4fg BP in balloon head cases went bang very nicely and ran at 10,800 psi.

Another lot of WRA with 88 gr RNL bullets over 7+ gr BP in solid head cases ran 16,200 psi.

Winchester 88 gr Lubaloy of recent manufacture had 1.8 gr of a ball powder in solid head cases and ran 18,900 psi

Remington UMC 88 gr RNL of relatively recent manufacture had 1.0 gr of flake powder in solid head cases and ran 13,300 psi.

Many older manuals show 1.5 gr Bullseye to be a max load with 88 - 98 gr cast bullets. The Hercules data showed 2.5 gr. I tested 1.5 gr Bullseye under the Lee 90 gr SWC seated to the 2nd lube groove. It ran 19,300 psi.....!!! That was in newer solid head cases. That load may have been down around the SAAMI MAP and older factory psi's when loaded in balloon head cases which were the norm for the 32 S&W back in the day perhaps when that data was developed?

The old Hercules Data, circa 1968, give a load of 2.3 gr Red dot as a load with a 88 gr RNL bullet. I used a 90 gr Lee SWC loaded out to the 2nd lube groove. 1.5 gr Rd Dot ran 20,400 psi....!!! The max load of 2.3 gr ran 32,500 psi........yikes......

I also tested 5 gr GOEX 4fg in solid head cases under the Lee 90 gr SWC. Out of 10 shots I got one psi measurement of 9,400 psi. The other nine shots were less than that.

BTW; the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&W is 17,000 psi while the SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi.

SAAMI MAPs are developed based on factory loadings and with old BP/smokeless powder loadings not always to the lowest denominator.

When loading the 32 S&W for the older break open revolvers with Bullseye, Red Dot or other similar fast burning powder careful attention must be paid to the type of case, especially with solid head cases, used and seating depth as both greatly affect the pressure.

[uscra112]

Yes, seating depth becomes very sensitive in these tiny cartridges. I've run a series in Quickload which made that abundantly clear.

[fatelk]

I found another one today. I bought it because it was cheap and looked like an interesting old gun. It's an H&R .32 Long top-break revolver, made in 1891.

It's in excellent condition. I think I'll load up some black powder rounds for it, since that's what it was made for. My research tells me that it's made for the long-obsolete .32 Merwin & Hulbert Long cartridge, but .32 S&W Long brass chambers fine. Black powder or very light loads only, I'm thinking.

[Pressman]

I have 45 of them, all locked in a metal foot locker. I inherited them last year and have no idea what to do with them at this time. I know one is a S&W, the rest are anyone's brand. Some were fired by the last owner and he did have one failure, on a nice long barreled .22 that broke the top strap.
I am thinking about some type of display so I can enjoy having them, if I ever figure out how and where to put it.
Love them or hate them, they remain an interesting part of our firearms legacy.

Ken

[fatelk]

I thought I'd err on the light side working up a light load for this old gun, tried 1.3gr 231 with a Lee 93gr bullet. The first round stuck halfway down the barrel.

[uscra112]

I thought I'd err on the light side working up a light load for this old gun, tried 1.3gr 231 with a Lee 93gr bullet. The first round stuck halfway down the barrel.

Well, now you have a lower bound for the load. :wink::wink:

On the bright side, that's the handiest way I know of slugging a barrel. Discovered it by accident myself, but ever since then I've done it on purpose. :Bright idea:

[fatelk]

I bumped it up a little, and the bullets actually left the barrel, but it doesn't shoot anywhere near point of aim. The primers also tend to back out a little and flatten, jamming it up. The little gun is 128 years old, so I'm hesitant to increase the load very much. Maybe this one is better off as an antique wallhanger.

[fatelk]

I'm so cautious working up a load, paranoid maybe. I finally got around to putting several rounds across the chronograph. They were pretty consistent at around 320 fps. I reckon that's a little slow. :) I suppose I could get them going to at least 500 fps; that should still be safe, perhaps?

[Winger Ed.]

The break-top action idea had its advantages.......over gate-loading SAA-series systems, mostly. .

In their day, a big selling/advertising point was they were easier & faster to reload if you were on a horse,
and why the empties were so forcefully ejected.
(Also why early Colt .45 autos, before they settled on the final 1911 design had finger gripper notches at the front of the slide)

After a fashion, there was some first generation speed loaders available for them made out of wood.
Sort of a wooden disc with cartridge size holes drilled in it, then a large hole in the middle, and a wooden plug to keep the rounds in place.
Put the loader on the empty cylinder, the rounds went in about 1/2 way,
then you pulled out the plug and they dropped the rest of the way in.

[Alferd Packer]

The pressures involved in shooting these old guns.
The seating depth, weight of the powder charge, weight of the bullet, the hardness of the bullet material, the diameter of the bullet, the diameter of the cylinder chambers, the diameter of the barrel, the cylinder to barrel gap, the headspace gap between the recoil shield and the cylinder, and the timing how the cylinder lines up with the barrel when you pull the trigger to shoot.
There are a few more variables also such as some pressure differences in lots of powder in loading these old guys from minimum loads to maximum loads and still more variables.
Even the black powder loads are differing in strength, but are usually low enough for a gun in good shape.
Taking all these variables into account at once and seeing them applied, a few here, a few there, and a few blowups, makes me believe more than ever in guardian angels for all of us.
One reloader says he does this and only does that when he shoots.
I say good luck to all of us, because everything I listed and a few I missed ALL apply every time you load up and pull the trigger.
And most factory loads have slightly undersized bullets for their own protection.
They are loaded to the right pressure for the la
test firearm, but the bullets aren't. Even that statement has a bug in it, because any factory lot can have the right size, or larger bullets, making them too hot for your old iron.
I've not said anything new here that everyone hasn't heard before, but it all applies, every time you shoot.
Just sayin.
I love reading what everyone has to say.
Keep it alive, keep em comin.
I respect all of you and I am always learning something new on here or another way to look at something with another point of view. After i post, I'm likely to go back and change something because i don't agree with myself, but somebody told me not to do that unless it's a bum charge weight or bullet weight or loa, so that's just a little more for the mix. Thanks.

[Alferd Packer]

If you are doubtful about shooting yours with lead bullets, there are always wax bullets and a primer.
Also there are moulded hot glue bullets also primer powered.

[onelight]

I'm so cautious working up a load, paranoid maybe. I finally got around to putting several rounds across the chronograph. They were pretty consistent at around 320 fps. I reckon that's a little slow. :) I suppose I could get them going to at least 500 fps; that should still be safe, perhaps?
[smilie=l: that speed worked in my Daisy :)

[Larry Gibson]

This is the test I referred to earlier of S&W 38 loads.

38 S&W Pressure Tests

Earlier in this thread I offered to test some of the loads mentioned for pressure to determine what level of safety there was for the different strength of revolvers made for the 38 S&W cartridge. Ed Harris graciously sent me some bullets and the data for several test loads. I also had on hand three 38 S&W factory loads plus my own 38 S&W load I use in my Harrington & Richardson revolver.

The test handgun is a TC Contender with a 7.94” long 357 magnum barrel. The bore is .347 and the groove is .357. A strain gauge is attached over the center of the chamber (as per SAAMI specifications). With a 38 S&W cartridge chambered the gauge is over the case just below the base of a factory seated bullet. The strain gauge is attached to an Oehler M43 PBL that is interfaced with a laptop computer which has the software. As you will note on the Oehler data sheets there is considerable data input on the conditions, test firearm and load information prior to testing. Each strain gauge is calibrated by the manufacturer and that is also input. I also use factory ammunition as a “reference”. Before each test the M43 runs a check on the gauge to ensure all is correct. A test cannot be done if that test is not correct.

277731

277733

The Contender has a 2.5X scope mounted and with quality 357 cast loads will put 10 shots into one raged hole less than 1” ctc at 25 yards. However, with the shorter 38 S&W cartridge the bullet exits the case it is not supported as it is in a revolver by the cylinder throats before entering the barrel. In the Contender chamber there would be considerable space around the bullet in the longer chamber for probable misalignment before the bullet enters the leade. Previous testing showed accuracy could be quite good and very poor. Since I’m probably the only one shooting any 38 S&W out of a Contender that isn’t a problem those of you with bullets that properly fit your revolvers cylinder throats have. The test groups were cut out and pasted to the Oehler data sheets.

With low pressure loads the M43 PBL will not provide any measurements unless sufficient data is measured. This means any data from such shots will be “lost” including the velocity. To alleviate that problem, I also set up a M35P Oehler in tandem with the M43 PBL screens to at least capture the velocity. It also is interesting to compare the measured velocity data. If the M43 PBL doesn’t measure all the shots in a test string, the M35P still provides velocity information (generally a lower velocity shot wasn’t measured) for study. An example of that will be shown. The M35P print out is pasted on the Oehler M43 data sheet left of the “shot Data” and “Summary” data.

The start screen for the M43 PBL was at 15’ and at 12.5’ for the M35P. Shooting was done from the bench with a Hoppe’s pistol rest.

277736

277737

The chamber on the Contender is to minimum specifications for the 357 magnum and most 38 S&W cartridges will not chamber. However, the R-P factory 38 S&W cartridges would chamber very tightly. I had on hand 50 new Starline 38 S&W cases and W-W and R-P 38 S&W fired cases. All of the Starline and most of the fired R-P cases would chamber when FL sized in a steel RCBS 357 FL die. With bullets larger than .358 seated they would not chamber. Thus, all the test bullets other than the R-P factory that would chamber were sized .358 or .357. The R-P factory bullets measured .362 in front of the crimp and .354 on the seated bullet diameter. The W-W factory bullets were .350 - .352 on the seated portion. It is no wonder, as you will see, accuracy was less than stellar out of my H&R with its .362” cylinder throats, .351 bore and .360 groove diameter.

In the following picture we see the bullets used: left to right; R-P factory, W-W factory, Western Lubaloy factory, Ed Harris provided the 36-125T, the 36-155D and the 36-151H and I provided the Lee 356-105-SWC. Also is a picture of the 3 bullets Ed provided loaded and another of the three factory loads.

CC! 500 primers were used. A roll crimp was used in the crimp groove of each bullet. All powder charges were weighed individually on a Redding scale.

277738

277739

277740

277741

Continued in next post

[Larry Gibson]

The R-P factory load was tested first as the rounds would chamber so it would give a “reference”. Previous chronograph results out of the H&R revolver showed the R-P to give 60 – 100+ fps greater velocity than other factory loads. It also had more powder; 2.2 gr vs the 1.7 and 2 gr of the W-W and Western factory loads. The MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) of the R-P measured 16,300 psi. SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. The SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL is 17,000 psi and all 38 SPL factory ammunition I have tested (numerous actually) in this barrel fall below that MAP so the psi measurement is correct.

I also pulled bullets of the W-W and Western factory and loaded them, and their factory powder charges into sized W-W 38 S&W cases that would chamber. Neither of those two factory loads produced enough psi for a measurement. It takes 5 – 7,000 psi to expand the case to put pressure on the barrel and another few thousand psi for a “strain” on the barrel to be measured. I have measured as low as 9,000 psi with this test barrel with target 38 SPL loads. However, given the expansion ratio and loose-fitting bullet in the longer chamber the lowest psi measured during this test was 11,700 psi. Thus, the W-W and Western factory loads were all less than 11,700 psi as were any other load that did not measure.

Looking at the squiggly, uneven time/pressure traces to the uninitiated they can be of concern. Those are quite normal for low psi loads where the powder is not burning that efficiently. A comparison of the average velocities between the M35P and the M43 demonstrate very good consistency. The accuracy of the R-P load was extremely good.

277742

Ed Harris 1 test is the 36-125T bullet over 3 gr Bullseye (Alliant). That is a short stubby bullet that was pre-sized at .357 and lubed with LLA(?). I feared accuracy would not be that good given the loose fit in the 357 length chamber and was correct. Nine shots went into 2.137” but a flyer (note the oval bullet hole) enlarged the group to 3.2”. The MAP measured 15,300 psi.

277743

Ed Harris 2 test is the 36-125T bullet over 7.0 gr 2400 (Alliant). It proved to be a very erratic load and the 3.86” group demonstrates that. Obviously, there is not enough bullet mass for 2400 to burn efficiently at this low of a load.

277744

Ed Harris 3 test is the 36-155D over 2.5 gr Bullseye (Alliant). The 36-155D is a very efficient looking bullet. It was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA. This is a very good load demonstrating excellent accuracy potential and a MAP of 16,600 psi which is very close to the R-P factory load. Note the 1st shot was out of the previously 2400 fouled barrel and was out of the remaining 9 shot group. Those 9 shots went into 1.32” which is very good.

277745

Ed Harris 4 test is the 36-155D over 6.2 gr 2400 (Alliant). Here we see while we may assume accuracy to be good based on 8 shots the 2 high flyers tell us something is amiss. The internal ballistics identify that something; again 2400 at this low of a load is not burning efficiently as indicated by the very large ES figures for velocity and pressure measurements along with the erratic time/pressure curves.

277746

Ed Harris test 5 is the 36-151H over 2.8 gr Bullseye (Alliant). This is a very consistent load and we are seeing how the time/pressure traces are smoothing out. Also note the low psi ES’s across the board. Hey, accuracy was pretty good too! The one high shot was the high velocity. The bad news here for the 38 S&W is this load is pushing into 38 SPL+P psi range.

277747

Ed Harris 6 test is the 36-151H over 6.5 gr 2400 (Alliant). We see the powder is beginning to burn efficiently with low psi ES’s and much smoother time/pressure traces. Accuracy was excellent with 9 shots in 1.4”:. The lone flyer, shot #9, was an abnormally low velocity. This load had the highest velocity and test MAP at 19,600 psi…. definitely into 38 SPL+P range.

277748

This test is my own 38 S&W load developed for the break open H&R and Iver Johnson revolvers. I use W-W 38 SPL cases trimmed back to 38 S&W length. WSP primers were used. The bullet is the Lee 356-105-SWC which drop the bullets at .361 with COWWs + 2% tin alloy. I leave them unsized and Lube with LLA. They are loaded over 2.5 gr Bullseye. Out of my H&R hammerless revolver (3 3/16” barrel) they hit point of aim out to 25 yards with very good accuracy. However, for this test so they would chamber in the Contender the bullets were sized .358 and the cases were sized in the 357 steel FL die. As we see from the Oehler M43 data sheet only one of the ten shot test gave sufficient psi to measure. That was shot #4 and the psi was 14,300 psi. The remaining nine shots then had a psi less than the SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W (14,000 psi). Note, as mentioned earlier, the M35P printout (pasted to left of Shot Data and Summary gives the velocities for each shot. Thus we still have a record of the entire test string. Accuracy was very good with a 1.235” group.

277749

The last test was to chronograph and test for accuracy the 3 factory loads out of my H&R hammerless revolver. I was quite pleased with the ES and SD of all 3 loads from the revolver. As we see the R-P gave 60 – 100 fps greater velocity. That was as it should be given the higher psi of the R-P load. Accuracy was very poor, consistently poor for all 3 loads actually, which given the undersized factory bullets didn’t surprise me. On the target the R-P bullets are in the lower circle, the W-W in the middle circle and the Western Lubaloys in the top circle. As the velocity increased the point of impact lowered as usual for a revolver.

277750

277751

277752

[Alferd Packer]

Larry G did a really great bunch of research and work pressure testing on these old pistols and loads for them.
This should be saved and made a sticky if it isn't already.

[Alferd Packer]

Larry you are tough.
Thank You for all that work.
Also thanks to all the others who tried loading these old top breaks and came back to post their results.
It's only here that you can find out about what works and what didn't.

[rbuck351]

I recently bought a iver johnson top break 38 S&W. I had a couple of boxes of WW 38S&W so I shot a few of those before I found out mine was made for BP. I since switched to BP using 10.5 grs which is slightly compressed using a lee 125rn 9mm boolit that casts right at .358. It has a crappy trigger and sights but will group ok at 10yds. However it hits about 6 to 8 inches high at that range and penetrates about half way through a 2x4. Looks like I'm going to have to add a bunch to the front sight. Fun to play with but I think I won't be using it as a ccw gun.

[frkelly74]

I have an old S&W 38 that my grandfather got someplace. May be from one of his friends widows, I don't know. It is in pretty good condition but the hand part is gone , so it will not advance the cylinder for the next shot. the bolt does engage to lock the cylinder in firing position. I think it is single action or else the double action function doesn't work. I would like to get it working just to say it does and maybe to shoot some gallery loads through it.


On Target , the shop over by Kalamazoo just auctioned off a bunch of these in varying condition in 38 and 32 calibers. They all sold

[Bigslug]

The problem I see with such guns - mainly the S&W clones - is that these were sold and used as little pocket guns that generally got carried much and shot seldom. . .YET A VAST PROPORTION OF THEM ARE BROKEN OR WORN OUT, PRESUMABLY WITH THE LOW-PRESSURE FACTORY AMMO OF THE DAY, OR FROM JUST DRY-FIRING.

The heyday of those revolvers was right in the middle of that period that we could call "The Great Prototyping". In less than one human lifespan, we went from muzzleloading to breech; loose powder to cartridge; single shot to repeater; and black to smokeless. If you find your way into C&Rsenal's series on YouTube - even by WWI there was still a lot of perfecting to do on just about everything in common use.

The Webleys and possibly the big S&W's were the more durable exceptions, but I consider most of the small top breaks to be like the "early dinosaurs": they didn't last long enough to be taken out by some un-resistable force like a giant meteor. Nope. They went extinct because the later, stronger, faster T-Rex and velociraptor came along and ate their wimpy backsides.:lol:

As such, if you have one that by some miracle isn't broken, I'd regard that as only a transitory state to BEING broken if you put much time into running one. And it probably doesn't need saying - good luck finding remaining parts for a series of 140 year old guns that were probably all breaking the same things. Fix or reinforce one thing, and it'll likely just kill the next.

We've all got our oddball tinkerer's kinks when it comes to firearms, and who among us doesn't love watching the gear of a vanished time function? That said, a sense of the reality that you are only "feeding the velociraptors" should be maintained by investing only in the cheap Lee dies, smaller quantities of brass, and unless you have another, better, compatible platform to shoot, inexpensive or low cavity-count molds.

[dtknowles]

I recently bought my sixth top break S&W, my first 3 are in my Avatar. I load for them and shoot them. The big ones were martial arms and meant for thousands of rounds without malfunctioning. My newest one is a single action New Model 3 in 38-40 Target with adjustable sights. It functions perfectly even if the bore is kind of rough. I have already fired a hundred rounds developing my standard load. I have a double action New Model 3 in 44-40 that I think is superior to any contemporary revolver. I have shot it for hundreds of rounds as well. That double action .32 in my Avatar is a sweet gun except for the puny cartridge. Nice trigger, quick and easy to reload, more accurate than you would expect. The .38 has a slightly bulged barrel but otherwise functions fine, if it can take the overload from what was probably someone firing a round with a bullet stuck in the barrel and still be in such fine function. I think it can take a lot more rounds without breaking. I think the only reason you find mostly broken ones is the people with good ones keep them or sell the to collector for high dollars.

Tim