Patch thickness #2

[megasupermagnum]

The more I shoot, the more I believe I am having problems tearing patches at the muzzle. The tighter the fit I have, the more I will get a random flier, and a patch to match... or what's left of it. This is not a problem I have in my new Englander. The kicker for me was last week at the range. I was shooting a load I know is too tight, but tight seems to be heralded as accurate around here. The load is a ball that casts .537" and a blue pillow ticking patch and Crisco lube. I've brought up the ridiculous idea of measuring patch thickness in the past due to the fact the reading changes by .005 or more depending how hard you push the roller, but with light thumb pressure, mine reads .015" thick more or less. This is the same thickness many report for pillow ticking. Walmart also has a thick version that is in the .020"-.022" range if anyone cares.

I began the day starting the ball with a rubber mallet, and then it goes down the bore firm, but no trouble. The problem is it shreds the patch more than half the time during firing. Later on, I went back to starting by hand with the short starter. It takes a lot of force, but I did get them to go in. By this point I had also began using an 1/8" felt wad as well. Accuracy was greatly improved, although still was in the 6"-8" range at 100 yards. Patches clearly had tearing around the radius of the ball, but were in one piece.

I've still got a number of those .537" balls, and plan to cast some smaller ones from my .530" mold soon. I decided to hunt around Walmart last night. I came across some 100% cotton "twill". That's all it said. The stuff sure seems strong, and wouldn't you know, the stuff measures .010"-.011" ish, so I bought some to try. I can't find any mention of it online, other than for cleaning patches. This stuff is not soft, it is tough with a high thread count. As tough or better than pillow ticking. I like that it has a smooth side, and a rough side with deep lines. I'm thinking smooth side to the bore for a good seal, and rough side to the ball for grip.

Now onto the actual question. I see a lot of people say they smooth their crown, and never say how. What is the best way to smooth the crown? This gun just finished it's 2nd pound of powder this year, so about 200 shots, I bought it used. I'd say if shooting was going to smooth anything, it would have happened by now. I also have fire lapping compound and a bunch of conicals.

[LAGS]

Thanks for the info on the Walmart .020 - .022" Pillow Ticking.
.015" is a little too loose on my latest rifle, and other material I was going to use was .030" and way too tight.
Everything else around here was all .015" when I took my wife up to the fabric stores .
I will let you guys know if it works out for me.

[megasupermagnum]

Yep, I'm pretty sure it is blue stripe and everything. It looks identical to the thinner stuff, just thicker.

[indian joe]

The more I shoot, the more I believe I am having problems tearing patches at the muzzle. The tighter the fit I have, the more I will get a random flier, and a patch to match... or what's left of it. This is not a problem I have in my new Englander. The kicker for me was last week at the range. I was shooting a load I know is too tight, but tight seems to be heralded as accurate around here. The load is a ball that casts .537" and a blue pillow ticking patch and Crisco lube. I've brought up the ridiculous idea of measuring patch thickness in the past due to the fact the reading changes by .005 or more depending how hard you push the roller, but with light thumb pressure, mine reads .015" thick more or less. This is the same thickness many report for pillow ticking. Walmart also has a thick version that is in the .020"-.022" range if anyone cares.

I began the day starting the ball with a rubber mallet, and then it goes down the bore firm, but no trouble. The problem is it shreds the patch more than half the time during firing. Later on, I went back to starting by hand with the short starter. It takes a lot of force, but I did get them to go in. By this point I had also began using an 1/8" felt wad as well. Accuracy was greatly improved, although still was in the 6"-8" range at 100 yards. Patches clearly had tearing around the radius of the ball, but were in one piece.

I've still got a number of those .537" balls, and plan to cast some smaller ones from my .530" mold soon. I decided to hunt around Walmart last night. I came across some 100% cotton "twill". That's all it said. The stuff sure seems strong, and wouldn't you know, the stuff measures .010"-.011" ish, so I bought some to try. I can't find any mention of it online, other than for cleaning patches. This stuff is not soft, it is tough with a high thread count. As tough or better than pillow ticking. I like that it has a smooth side, and a rough side with deep lines. I'm thinking smooth side to the bore for a good seal, and rough side to the ball for grip.

Now onto the actual question. I see a lot of people say they smooth their crown, and never say how. What is the best way to smooth the crown? This gun just finished it's 2nd pound of powder this year, so about 200 shots, I bought it used. I'd say if shooting was going to smooth anything, it would have happened by now. I also have fire lapping compound and a bunch of conicals.

I'll make a cpouple of points - take em or no I guess
1) increasing accuracy from mallet tight patches is a myth ---- for all normal shooting anyways - IF there is a slight gain (I dont believe there is but just suppose) you would need a proper benchrest setup and a telescope sight to prove the point - we are talking about a possible half to three quarter inch improvement in a ten shot group at 100yards - tear one patch and its all gone to hell.
2) does your barrel have a dead flat end finish? (lots of target rifles do and also plenty of the replica lever guns) crowning (or recrowning) a barrel is pretty easy for anyone that is reasonably competent with hand tools - I have done a bunch of them with a 45 degree grindstone in a small electric drill - gently is the go!- make the 45 degree shoulder no more than 1/16th inch wide - then I follow the stone with a wood gadget I made from a piece of 3/4 inch dowell rod - turn one end down to fit the drill chuck and the other is cut at 45 degree angle and glue a piece of 600 grit wet and dry paper around the cutting face - finish polish the crown with that OR just use some jewellers rouge or auto cutting polish smeared on the wood .

That will give you a nice fresh crown that wont get burred up in use - it will stop the patch cutting - unless you go really crazy with thick patches.

3) plenty of lube on the patches - if moose milk they need damp enough you can almost squeeze a couple drops out of them - forget about spit patching and dried out moose milk patches (until you get this figured out at least)

I like the 100% cotton drill (you call it twill) sounds the same as what we call drill - they make summer work pants from it - its a tighter weave and tougher than pillow ticking - its a good patch material and you can get colours too :bigsmyl2: --I use this stuff in my 54 and load it with the drill pattern to the ball and the plain side to the barrel. Always wash your patch material thoroughly before using it - they put gunk ("size") in /on it to make it handle nice in the shop

[waksupi]

There is absolutely no need to load a tight patch and ball combination. If you can't start a ball easily, they are too tight. I don't even like a short starter, as I have seen them as a major cause of bulged barrels over the years.

[LAGS]

I am looking for a Tighter patching set up, not for Accuracy, but to reduce Blow By in a Deep Grooved Barrel.
The barrel I have is a .610 bore, with Groove Diameter of .640.
A .600 RB with a .015 patch when started, is a little loose and can be pushed in with my thumb with a lubed patch.
But as I run the ball down the barrel, there is No Resistance.
I know the patch is not filling out the grooves at all.
A Snugger patch will help this ( I think ) but not be so tight as to have to Drive the ball home with a mallet.
I do intend to use an Overpowder wad of some type to act as a Gas Seal.
But if the ball has No friction going in on a Clean barrel, will it be engaging the rifling as the rifle is fired ?
I have not fired the rifle yet, but do anticipate that the loading will be a little tighter after firing a Fouling Shot or two.
But now is the time, while I have the Breech Plug out to experiment with proper sizing of the balls and patches.
I probably wont be able to get out shooting until Sept 1st when Dove season opens.
So I have a little time to play with the loading.
And , NO, I do not intend to use the Renegade to hunt Doves, even with shot.
But if there is plenty of game on opening day, then why not give it a try.
But I have shot Doves with a Mowrey .50 Rifle using shot in Years past.
I only hit 5 out of 35 shots, but it was Fun.

[LAGS]

I picked up some of the Walmart .020" pillow ticking today.
Looks promising.
I have it in the washing machine to wash out any factory Sizing and make it more Flexible.
I haven't decided if I am going to cut Patches, or just cut it into strips and cut it off at the Muzzle.

[megasupermagnum]

I picked up some of the Walmart .020" pillow ticking today.
Looks promising.
I have it in the washing machine to wash out any factory Sizing and make it more Flexible.
I haven't decided if I am going to cut Patches, or just cut it into strips and cut it off at the Muzzle.

That's another question, why do we wash our patches? I always did it, just because that's what you do. Mine measure and felt the same before and after. I wash mine by hand in a bucket.

As for fit, I am definitely too tight now no matter how you look at it. My rifle is a bone stock TC Renegade, with the factory crown. It's had hundreds of rounds through it. indian joe, I'm not sure I follow you exactly. So you used some kind of 45 degree grinding tool and a hand drill to cut a crown, then polished with a 45 degree ended wood dowel and some lapping compound?
The TC muzzle is already more or less a 45 degree chamfer. I might have to try out your lapping method. I see here on https://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/t10808-coning-a-barrel-my-way-by-ed-hamberg OldMtnMan sands his by hand. I'd rather not sand by hand when I have power tools and methods that are much more accurate. I like how smooth his looks though, I'd bet that loads easy enough.

Coning is starting to look better every day. It sure would be nice to be able to ditch my short starter. I'm looking for 3"-4" groups at 100 yards, which doesn't sound like too high an expectation with a coned muzzle.

[Edward]

Stick a patch 2" down the barrel (Catch debris) an 200-grit paper rubbed with your thumb till you have a nice round /smooth transition muzzle to smooth bore .Rub 6-7 times rotate barrel 180 and rub again REPEAT MANY TIMES till Patched ball gets there with minimum effort smoothly /Ed

[LAGS]

The fabric I got today was very Stiff.
After I washed it, it was more Pliable and softer.
When fabric is manufactured these days, most of it is coated with what is called Sizing.
The sizing makes it Stiff, and easier to fold onto a Bolt for sales, and much easier for someone to lay it out Flat to cut out the pattern.
My wife says that the sizing they use these days is not as stiff as it use to be, but in most cases is still there.
So far, the new Fabric is meeting all my expectations, and is fitting the bore with the RB's I have cast already without having to Pound the ball down the bore.
I found that a 20 ga. Shotgun Over Shot Card, 1/8" Nitro Card or even 1/8"felt wad fits the bore nicely to use as an over Powder wad or sealer.
A 16 ga. wad will probably fit my bore a little tighter, but I haven't found all of my Shotgun reloading stuff yet after the recent move.

[Beagle333]

I use old faded blue jeans from the Thrift Store for mine. Don't get the newer ones unless you want em thick, as you'll get patches that are about 20-25 thousandths. But old thin faded ones are around 12-15 thousandths and are only 50 cents a pair on Tuesdays.

[LAGS]

My Jeans are full of holes and covered with Stains at about .030" thick on the useable parts.

[waksupi]

The fabric I got today was very Stiff.
After I washed it, it was more Pliable and softer.
When fabric is manufactured these days, most of it is coated with what is called Sizing.
The sizing makes it Stiff, and easier to fold onto a Bolt for sales, and much easier for someone to lay it out Flat to cut out the pattern.
My wife says that the sizing they use these days is not as stiff as it use to be, but in most cases is still there.
So far, the new Fabric is meeting all my expectations, and is fitting the bore with the RB's I have cast already without having to Pound the ball down the bore.
I found that a 20 ga. Shotgun Over Shot Card, 1/8" Nitro Card or even 1/8"felt wad fits the bore nicely to use as an over Powder wad or sealer.
A 16 ga. wad will probably fit my bore a little tighter, but I haven't found all of my Shotgun reloading stuff yet after the recent move.

The stuff that makes it stiff is starch. That is what you want to wash out, and it usually takes at least two washings.

[indian joe]

The stuff that makes it stiff is starch. That is what you want to wash out, and it usually takes at least two washings.

hmmm yeah for most ordinary people ---washing it by hand in a bucket wouldnt do it !

[megasupermagnum]

hmmm yeah ---washing it by hand in a bucket wouldnt do it !

Really, why? I'm not just soaking and wringing out. I just double washed my twill fabric today for good measure. I got side tracked, and soaked for a 3 hours, then a good washing by hand for 5 minutes or so. The water turned whitish murky. I wrung it out, added new water and did another wash. The stuff is now hanging on the clothes line.

Putting a full yard of fabric like this and no edges into a power washing machine would turn it into a spaghetti mess. I hand was a lot of stuff that gets truly dirty, it does a better job than the washing machine IMO.

[frogleg]

Ok My 2 cents Many of us who try to replicate the old ways find a patch and ball combination that will alow you to Thumb the ball and patch into the muzzle, Tight but not too tight to push it in with your thumb. then push it down on the powder with the loading rod. imagine you have to reload quickly. No hammer or short starter. You will have alot more fun and will not tear patches. remember the patch keeps the ball down on the powder and the ball bumps up in size a little on firin. it really does, just give it a try do it like Great Great Grandpaw did it.

[LAGS]

Machine washing the two yards of fabric, didn't unravel it too much around the edges.
Tumble dry in the dryer made it nice and flexible.
The .020" thick Pillow ticking can be forced into the muzzle with my thumb, but I still prefer my ball starter or the handle of my patch knife to start the ball.
Now there is friction as the ball goes down the clean barrel.
Before with a .015" patch it was like there was No resistance at all.
Sort of like the feeling that the ball came out of the patch.

[Mr Peabody]

You might take a moment and pull the load after you seat it and look at your patch. See if your cutting it then, too the crud ring at the top of your fired charge can cut your patch.

[indian joe]

Really, why? I'm not just soaking and wringing out. I just double washed my twill fabric today for good measure. I got side tracked, and soaked for a 3 hours, then a good washing by hand for 5 minutes or so. The water turned whitish murky. I wrung it out, added new water and did another wash. The stuff is now hanging on the clothes line.

Putting a full yard of fabric like this and no edges into a power washing machine would turn it into a spaghetti mess. I hand was a lot of stuff that gets truly dirty, it does a better job than the washing machine IMO.

ok --- always an exception - and blanket statements are a bad idea - soooooo for most ordinary people ---washing it by hand in a bucket wouldnt do it !
Chuck a couple yards of patch material in the washing machine with yr work clothes - dont make any more of a tangle than the jeans legs (at my place) .

[megasupermagnum]

frogleg, I'll be sure to try some looser combos too. With this new thinner patching, I'll try with some .530" balls to see what happens. I am willing to use whatever combo is the most accurate. Mr peabody, that's a good point, although when bench testing I swab between shots, so should not be an issue. I am also liking using a felt wad, which should make it even less an issue. A wad seems to be just like a gas check. You don't need them, but they sure simplify a lot of problems. Plus separating the powder from a lubed patch just seems right to me, even though I have not had an issue in the past.

indian joe, I forget I'm a weirdo. I still use an electric washing machine like most people 95% of the time though. I can't stand the smell of dryer sheets. I line dry most of my clothes, they smell so much better. I try to freeze dry in the winter too, although it's tough on cloudy days. Hunting camp I have a bucket with what amounts to a plunger to wash clothes. Washing by hand is surprisingly easy, and much faster than a machine, at least in small batches.

Way off topic, but what does a washing board do? I always see them in movies, and I've never tried one. To me it looks like a complete waste of time unless it was to make clothes soft or something. Working soap and water in and out is what cleans, rubbing does nothing.

I only used straight water, no soap, when washing patches in case someone was going to ask.

[GregLaROCHE]

Twill refers to the weave of the fabric. It is much stronger than a simple weave, so it should hold up better than normal pillow ticking.

[quail4jake]

I've had best luck in deep rifled patched ball type barrels with a smaller ball and thicker patch with lots of lube. It seems that in smoothbores it really doesn't matter as long as the ball makes a snug fit with the patch... .610 ball and .010 patch (cleaning patch) soaked in melted bore butter in the 20 bore smoothbore goes in with a nudge from the starter and performed as well as a tighter patch. The rifle does well with the same fit but more patch (.020), any looser and the group enlarges, any tighter and the group enlarges and it is a P.I.A. to load. Polish the crown with 1500 grit paper and thumb pressure and lap the bore if you feel any inconsistency in ramming pressure...

[rfd]

i'm with waksupi - i have no need for so tight a patched ball that i can't either thumb it or knife handle it past the muzzle. i never use a "short starter" and 3f works fine for both tube and pan. heck, even 1-1/2f works for both just as well, too, sometimes better. we should all start thinking and emulating more like times of the mid 18th century - at least we won't have to worry about hostiles, french soldiers, and redcoat regulars. :)

loose loads are easy to pull when ya dry ball (yes, if you haven't dry balled yet, yer day is coming, promise). my loose load it's plenty accurate if i do my part well. currently using jo-ann's .015 red stripe ticking along with a .526 (tanner) or .530 (lee) mould and 70 grains of swiss 3f down the tube of the kibler .54 colonial. i can fire off a dozen or so shots without any need for fouling control. some folks get too concerned over reviewing fired patches - if the ball consistently goes where i point, i could care less about fired or blown patches or whatever. ymmv.

https://i.imgur.com/OJylbBB.jpg

[indian joe]

i'm with waksupi - i have no need for so tight a patched ball that i can't either thumb it or knife handle it past the muzzle. i never use a "short starter" and 3f works fine for both tube and pan. heck, even 1-1/2f works for both just as well, too, sometimes better. we should all start thinking and emulating more like times of the mid 18th century - at least we won't have to worry about hostiles, french soldiers, and redcoat regulars. :)

loose loads are easy to pull when ya dry ball (yes, if you haven't dry balled yet, yer day is coming, promise). my loose load it's plenty accurate if i do my part well. currently using jo-ann's .015 red stripe ticking along with a .526 (tanner) or .530 (lee) mould and 70 grains of swiss 3f down the tube of the kibler .54 colonial. i can fire off a dozen or so shots without any need for fouling control. some folks get too concerned over reviewing fired patches - if the ball consistently goes where i point, i could care less about fired or blown patches or whatever. ymmv.

https://i.imgur.com/OJylbBB.jpg

all good - I agree with ya both - however when the ball dont go where you think ya pointed it is a good time to go chasing patches !
Have to admit I do use a short starter - but I load loose enough could do it (just) with the ramrod - my knives are all homemade and have the steel right to the end of the handle - dont want to mess up the crowning job - otherwise that would work.

[rfd]

i cheat a bit with using a knife to press down the patched ball just past the muzzle, particularly with this russell rifleman's blade that i scaled and brass pinned ... ;)

https://i.imgur.com/PB7TRhZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9pTJAlz.jpg

[Toymaker]

Guess the saying that every gun is different holds true again.
My heavy bench rifle used Teflon patching, but that's a different story.
Patching for the off-hand rifle is nominally 0.015" BUT since the fabric is pinched between the side of the rifle bore and the ball I measure it crushed. I crank down on the micrometer as hard as I can and look for a fabric 0.004". Then it is washed in the clothes washer with lye soap (purchased at the local farmers market), dried in the gas dryer, and washed and dried again. Then it is cut into strips and soaked in a solution of 1 part machinist's oil and 7 parts water. The excess is squeegeed between my fingers and the strips are spread on a sheet of steel and air dried. Then they are rolled and stored in 35mm film canisters until needed.
The fit is tight. I use a quarter inch button starter to set the ball below the level of the muzzle and cut the patch with a straight razor. Then I use a 6 inch short starter to get the patched ball down the bore a bit. BOTH get smacked with a leather mallet. You smack a short starter with the palm of your hand you run the risk of damaging the Ottoman nerve that runs through your hand.
Then the range rod comes into play and the ball gets seated on the powder with one long hard push. Some years ago Bevel Brothers wrote about an experiment in MuzzleBlasts magazine. They showed pretty conclusively that black powder explodes most efficiently when compressed at 65 pounds. I spent a lot of time with my rifle on the bathroom scale pressing for 65 pounds after reading that rifle. I don't get any flyers unless I flinch, jerk or close my eyes. Reading the patches and they look good. Got a couple of display cabinets full of plaques and medals so I must be doing something that works with my rifle. Finding that combination is part of the fun.

[rfd]

yes, every gun is different - usually, sorta kinda, and it all depends on what the shooter requires with both loading parameters and shooting consistent accuracy.

[indian joe]

i cheat a bit with using a knife to press down the patched ball just past the muzzle, particularly with this russell rifleman's blade that i scaled and brass pinned ... ;)

https://i.imgur.com/PB7TRhZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9pTJAlz.jpg

AHHHH I do like the way your mind works !!! That is so so clever

[megasupermagnum]

If I were to start a ball with a knife, I'd want to use the butt, not the side of the handle. With my hands full of patch lube, that's too much chance to slip and cut myself bad.

I had a good casting day, cast about 300 balls with my .530" mold. With my 20-1 alloy, they came out very consistent at .532". With the new twill patches, and lubed with frontier muzzleloader's lube, ran one down to check fit. I can't quite start them with my thumb, but It doesn't take much force with the short starter. I rammed it all the way down, and pulled back out with my ball puller. I could not see even a hint of damage to the patch. I will hopefully get out to saturday to shoot.

[rfd]

If I were to start a ball with a knife, I'd want to use the butt, not the side of the handle. With my hands full of patch lube, that's too much chance to slip and cut myself bad.
....

what "patch lube"? there's lube and then there's LUBE. ;)

i pre-lube patch strips with gato feo #1 - rubbed in, melted in with a heat gun. no muss, no fuss, no greasy kid stuff.

to each their own, we were all trad muzzy pilgrims at one time - lots to learn and experiment with for sure. :)

[megasupermagnum]

I spent a lot of time at the range today. Unfortunately the twill patches are a no-go. I double checked by pulling a ball, and I am 100% sure they are not being cut on loading at all. On firing they are blowing to pieces. I tried down to 40 grains of powder up to 80 grains, and always run a felt patch underneath. The pillow ticking fared much better. Patches looked very good. Best accuracy came at 45 grains of powder. 40-50 all shot the same. I shot 4 shot groups at 100 yards, and they were in the 5-6" range. Definitely good enough for hunting with an absolute max range of 100 yards, but not quite the accuracy I'm after. I'm sure 45 grains would work on whitetail, but that's getting to be borderline, probably 1000-1100 fps muzzle velocity.

All day shots felt good, I was getting a great sight picture with my peep sight rear and globe front. Just to confirm there was no problem, I tried another good load. I fired 5 shots, 90 grains FFg old eyensford, 435 grain maxi ball lubed with bore butter with felt wad under. That was a 3.5" CTC group. Those maxiballs were bought from october country, and they are the worst quality. One of the ratings said they were "lead raisins" and he is right. I have to wonder how these would shoot if I cast them, and lubed them with something that actually sticks.

Unfortunately my TC Renegade just isn't a round ball gun. I've tried all kinds of tricks, and can't get past mediocre accuracy. It loves a maxi ball. I see three options 1. buy a mold and shoot maxi balls 2. buy a green mountain barrel 3. have this barrel re bored.

I do have a TC New Englander I never put much load development into too. I might make that my round ball rifle.

[megasupermagnum]

At this point I believe I'll be sticking to a maxiball for the renegade. It's a picky rifle, maybe I just need to use what it likes. One last thing, I do have some .520" round balls. Would those be worth a try with some thick patching? I know I have duck canvas from work pants, I may have something else. Everything I have ever seen has shown a larger ball and thinner patch is the way to go in these rifles.

I have two questions about the maxi ball. One, what kind of performance can I expect on game? The flat is almost non existent, which is not a good sign, but are they blunt enough that they perform more like a round nose? Two, has anyone found a problem with the maxi working it's way off of the powder in the barrel? I know with the Lee real's they are way too loose, and they will come loose eventually. The maxiball's I were shooting were much tighter, the base bands were slightly engraving, and the top band becomes fully engraved. I even slugged my barrel with one. The groove diameter is right at .551", and bore about .540". The maxiballs I got were terrible quality, but seemed to be in the ballpark .541" two bottom bands, and .550"-.551" top band. Since they did require moderate force to seat all they way, compared to a REAL which the weight of the ramrod will seat once started, I have to think this may be a non-issue. Has anyone ever tried an overshot card over a bullet to make sure it stays in place?