Weird 94 problem

[Bazoo]

I have a winchester 94 30-30 made in 1970. Occasionally I've had a stuck case in my rifle. All with reloads in the medium to full power range. Very random, always with reloads and never with over a hundred factory rounds fired.

I've narrowed down a few things, bullets that hit the lands lock up the gun when chambered but not fired, and sizing lube left on the cases causing the gun to lock up upon firing.

Well the other day I loaded a round and when I went to unload it the lever wouldn't move. It came loose with a tug, and I saved the round for inspection. I noticed the primer had a ring on it around a tiny dimple mark from the firing pin. I cycled the round into the chamber several times and each time it stuck and the ring got more pronounced. Upon inspection it measured within specs in every way. It passes a plunk test and shows no signs of land marks on the bullet.

The primer is .002 below the head. I am reasonably sure the primer wasn't proud as I finger check them and prime one at a time with a ram prime. I also cycled another round from the batch, who's primer was below the head (although I didn't measure it), and it showed a faint ring mark but it didn't stick the action.

Upon inspection of my rifles bolt face, it has a slightly raised portion around the firing pin hole, like a small mound. It isn't raised much, just enough to have a ring around the hole. I am thinking that the raised metal is making the bolt at a minimum for headspace, then I got brass with heads on the thick side of spec, coupled with an occasional shallow primer pocket.

I can't remember the measurement of head thickness but it was thicker than some others I have. It was W-W Super brass but has done it with other headstamps.

I plan to remove the high spot on the bolt face. I also have considered uniforming my primer pockets but I'm afraid I'll run into a sticky case, particularly a factory round, during a hunt.

Anyone ever run into something like this?

Bazoo

[Texas by God]

If factory rounds work and your reloads don’t, try another set of dies maybe. Does the boltface mark all brass or just the stiff to chamber ones?

[john.k]

All the 70 s 94s Ive seen have the raised burr around the firing pin hole..........its gradually disappears after about 1000 rounds or so.........Ive never seen anyone with the inclination to spend half a day removing the bolt to remove it.........It does mark primers with HP rounds .

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the replies.

The bolt marks all rounds that the primer isn't fairly deep. I tried seating a primer a touch high in an empty case and chambering it, and it does reproduce the issue.

I've not experienced the problem with factory rounds but I have fired only around 100 where I've fired 500 or more reloads.

I don't see how sizing dies would change the problem as the round in question does enter the chamber fully; the front of the rim hits the barrel.

[Bazoo]

It only takes about ten minutes to disassemble a 94, not half a day.

[Guesser]

I came into a 1973 production W94 in 30-30 some years back. The firing pin hole in the bolt face was enlarged to the point that the FP dropped low enough to leave a race on the case head as it entered the primer pocket striking the primer very low. it always fired but was getting worse as time and firings went by. Gun Smith said he had never seen a Winchester 94 bolt do that. We could not find a reason for it starting and continuing downward. I located a new bolt for 35$ that came with the FP installed. Fixed the problem.

[pietro]

It only takes about ten minutes to disassemble a 94, not half a day.

Yes - just open the bolt about 3/4", remove the finger lever pin stop screw (large screwhead on LF receiver sidewall), and from the RH sidewall, drift out the pin that connects the bolt to the lever.

Open the lever, then pull it and the lower link all the way down to disengage the locking lugs from the bolt raceway & remove the bolt to the rear.



Assemble in reverse order. . :bigsmyl2:

.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I read through your original post a couple of times, and have some questions: If you chamber one of your reloads and then attempt to eject it without firing it, does the bullet show traces of rifling on the bullet's nose (which would indicate that they are set too long), or does it pull the bullet out of the case? Bullet diameter too large? Are your loads too hot, causing the primer to extrude back into the firing pin hole? (The .30-30 is just a nice, comfortable-to-shoot old timer, and isn't meant to be hot-rodded, especially in a lever action). I'm not clear on what you mean by it "locking up", and wish that you'd expound on that aspect some more. You can't get the lever open? Assuming that your chamber is o.k. and not gripping the fired case because of an imperfection in the chamber walls or neck, then you may have a mechanical issue inside the receiver. All of this being said, I'd still take the firing pin out of the bolt and give it and it's channel a close inspection and cleaning. Cratering or ringing on a bolt face leaves its mark on primers, and in advanced cases even on the brass, but I've never known it to effect extraction, rarely ejection. The fact, if I read it right, that the rifle performs satisfactorily with factory loads makes your reloads suspect.

DG

[Bazoo]

You have to completely disassemble the gun to remove the bolt because the carrier has an ear on top that rides in a slot on the underside of the bolt. You have to remove the bottom plate to rotate the carrier down far enough to let the bolt clear.

DG, the issue I'm having is not with fired cases being hard to extract but unfired reloads. I've reproduced it with a sized case that was primed but the primer not seated fully. It locks the lever in place and takes a solid pull to move it. I've not experienced it with factory ammo, but I don't experience it with all my reloads, or all in this batch. Just this one so far I've noticed. Most of the time I don't unload the gun by chambering each round. I half cycle the action and dump the round out of the action in my hand. So only a suspect round that gets chambered and not fired causes the gun to lock. The ring mark is left on other rounds that don't stick, so the bolt face is touching them but not enough to cause the locking lug to wedge behind the bolt when the action is closed. The firing pin hole is centered.

The round in question shows no signs of rifling and plunks in. I measured it and it shows nothing out of the ordinary except a slightly higher primer. It's still below the head, but only .002. I cycled that round 3 or 4 times and the ring became pronounced, but the sticky bolt/lever stopped. So I can only surmise the primer was just flush and was seated deeper? Or the ring has indented just enough for clearance? I will fire the round and report back. The other primers in the batch are seated lower so either it was high to start or is a shallower pocket than it's mates.

I was experiencing the gun locking up with firing my reloads but it was very random. I narrowed it down to having some lube left on an occasional case causing excessive bolt thrust. My standard load is 31141 over 32.5 grains 748. I've worked to 34 grains 748 but backed off as I didn't like the recoil. I've cured that problem by wiping my cases with solvent or tumbling them clean after sizing.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd paint the offending case with a sharpie and see where or if its dragging after you cycle it.

The shoulder may not being set back far enough, its too long, or you need to use a small base sizing die.

[Bazoo]

The case in question drops in the chamber and rests on the end of the barrel. I trimmed it before loading so the length is not an issue. It only stuck when the bolt was closed on it. When I cycled it out of the action I dropped it in the chamber to see and it did chamber freely. Then when I closed the action on it again it stuck the bolt. I inspected it again and cycled it into the chamber again and after the 3rd or 4th time, it stopped sticking the bolt. It was only after that I noticed the ring on the primer.

[pietro]

You have to completely disassemble the gun to remove the bolt because the carrier has an ear on top that rides in a slot on the underside of the bolt.

You have to remove the bottom plate to rotate the carrier down far enough to let the bolt clear.




With all due respect, when I drop the lever/bottom link as described above, the bolt raceway is clear w/o any further disassembly.

.

[Larry Gibson]

I have run into this problem a couple times over the years.

The M94 Winchester is one of those firearms that should not be dry fired. Doing so a lot can and does often result in a broken firing pin. However, extensive dry firing can also cause the front of the firing pin hole to bulge out a bit. This from the radiused part of the front of the firing pin hitting the inside front of the bolt face. That causes an eventual outward bulge of the firing pin hole to form. Your description of the problem fits that scenario perfectly.

Easiest solution is to remove the bolt as instructed. Then securing it solidly in a padded vise and use a large punch (the punch face should be almost as large as to fit in the bolt face without removing the extractor or ejector) with a flat face. Put it in the bolt face and a couple three wacks with a heavy hammer should swage the bulge back into place. An appropriately sized drill may need to be run into the firing pin hole for the firing pin to fit.... if needed use one just large enough to return the firing pin hole to it's original round size.

[Bazoo]

With all due respect, when I drop the lever/bottom link as described above, the bolt raceway is clear w/o any further disassembly.

.
I will disassemble it and check again. It's been a while since I disassembled it and may be I'm recalling incorrectly.

[Bazoo]

Larry, I thought of that very thing last night laying in bed but dismissed it. I wouldn't think the bolt metal would flow that much but knowing the shape of the firing pin, I can see how it would. There isn't much meat right in the center, right where the primer rests.

I've dry fired the gun occasionally, but not much as I've heard dry firing a 94 can damage it. Course I've only owned the gun 4 years so God only knows what's been done to it previously. And while it's in good shape and the actions tight, not showing any abuse, It's been carried and used.

Punch is a good idea, thanks. I wonder if it's got a limit to it's flow, as the firing pin would eventually seat and it would stop? Maybe it's a better idea to remove the bulge instead of moving it back in? Moving it back will weaken it more id think.

Thanks Larry

[Bazoo]

With all due respect, when I drop the lever/bottom link as described above, the bolt raceway is clear w/o any further disassembly.

.
No disrespect taken, and none meant from my end sir.


I just disassembled it.

I removed the lever pin, pulled the lever down as far as it will go and the bolt would not come out. I removed the pivot screw for the bottom plate and removed the lever and bottom plate. The locking bolt would not come out as it hits on the front of the trigger assembly. This allowed me to pivot the carrier down, but the bolt still would not come out. The ejector spring and lug hits the hammer, so I had to remove the stock, the hammer/ trigger assembly to get the bolt out. Only thing left was the locking bolt (which then fell out) and the carrier which is held in by it's own screw.

[Bazoo]

I measured the rim thickness of the case in question and it's .060. Max is listed as .063 according to the Lyman handbook. The bulge in the center of the bolt face was .004-.005 best I can finagle a measurement. Some of my other case have rims in the .055-.058 range. Those haven't caused any problems.

I say was cause I peened it back down some, and then sanded it with some 1000 grit paper around a pencil eraser. Now it measures .001-.002 best I can measure. I don't have a lathe or I'd spun it. Did the best I can with what I have and without causing damage. I did remove the extractor and glad I did as it was a touch rusty underneath.

An interesting problem I'll keep an eye on and fix more proper when I have access to a lathe.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

[samari46]

My Win Canadian Centennial 20" lever gun was bought used. Has the octagon barrel shape. Saw it first and two guys were having problems with sticking cases. Win power points factory ammo. feed and fire ok then extraction became difficult. had a cleaning kit so brushed the chamber and first few inches of rifleing. Another shooter had a micrometer so we measured just the case length unfired VS Fired.Fired the cases were about .005-6 extra length. as compared to unfired cases. Neither were a handloader so they sold the rifle. As luck would have it I picked up the same problem child. Easy to recognize due to the scratches on the receiver.My fired cases were trimmed .10 less than the trim to specs and no further problems and no problems loading and shooting factory ammo and extracting the fired cases. Guess the close to 900 rounds must have smoothed things out.Frank

[Bazoo]

That's interesting Frank, thanks for sharing.

[samari46]

As an aside about the '94 Winchester. Over the years I have collected a bunch of once fired 30-30 brass. Some have the sharp shoulders at the junction of the case neck and shoulder. However having said that I've also aquired some that instead of the sharp edges we all easily recognize, some actually have round shoulders where the case neck and body of the case are. About the only cause that I can think of, is that Winchester kept using the chamber reamers long after they should have been reground or when reground didn't bother to do a proper regrind on the reamer. This only a guess on my part and I may be all wet. And as far as case rim thickness is concerned. I bought a 1000 case of 30-30. Miked the whole case. Sufficed to say not all are created equal. I had 4 different piles on the living room able. Anything that didn't measure at least .060 and above was set aside so it wouldn't get mixed with the keepers. Over a hundred or so cases failed to make the grade. These cases were all Remington make. Just my 2 cents worth. Frank

[Bazoo]

I have seen some brass with that rounded shoulder. Takes more effort to resize. I wonder if it wa from winchesters or marlins.

[samari46]

Hard to say which Marlin or Winchesters exhibited the rounded shoulders. I bought a bunch of WW 30-30 brass from one of our members some years back. Supposedly all brass came from Winchester as test firing brass. Not one of those cases showed the rounded shoulders. I used to be brass rat, and also picked up a lot of once fired30-30 brass, that was where is saw the round shoulders. None of my 30-30's show the rounded shoulders. Frank

[Bazoo]

Took me a while, but I finally got pics uploaded.


https://i.imgur.com/cMVqtkV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/daV6Lg4.jpg