Pedersoli Kodiak Double (short barrel) 58 cal, painted barrel instead of blued :-o

[flynth]

Hi,

I'm in the process of developing a load for my new Pedersoli Kodiak Express Mk VI .58 cal double and I had a pretty nasty surprise when I properly cleaned the gun for the first time. It turns out the barrels are not blued but either painted or "cold blued" (which is a form of selenium dioxide coating and has nothing to do with real bluing).As with all my other guns including a Pedersoli side by side smoothbore 12ga shotgun I used a soft brass wire brush and a solvent based cleaner to clean the nipple area. Imagine my surprise when the "bluing" disappeared and left me with an area of light steel around both nipples! (see photos below)
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Now, to anyone who might suspect my brass brush is not really soft brass, but brass plated steel I can show this photo of my Pedersoli side by side double barrel smoothbore 12 ga which is around 2 years old and was cleaned with the same brush and solvent in a same way at least 7-10 times:
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There is not even a scratch on it.

Also, when one looks closely with a naked eye, it is evident that the finish is different on both guns. For example on the blued smoothbore one can clearly see the tool marks made when the nipple depressions were milled into the barrel. Real bluing will show slight imperfections like that. The same tool marks were not visible on the painted barrels until the paint was removed during the brass brush cleaning. This further suggests some sort of coating that filled the tool marks.

Now, I don't blame Pedersoli themselves too much. Their website only mentions blued barrels in the Kodiak Express long barrel section - this is a new model with a different sight and a shorter barrel. Their print catalogue also doesn't mention anything about bluing in the Kodiak Express Mk VI section, and does mention it in Kodiak Express Mk III. See picture below:
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However, the local Pedersoli distributor in their description had a clear mention of blued barrels on their website. I bought the rifle from them and I'm asking them for a partial refund due to their error. I'm writing this post in part to make people aware, the new Kodiak Double doesn't have blued barrels and in part to ask for advice on the best method to fix this.

I'm considering trying so called cold bluing, then if it doesn't help perhaps trying something like Mark Lee Express Blue #1 as sold by Brownells as it doesn't require temperatures as high as hot bluing which could damage soft solder used to join the barrels together. What do you think?

[Geraldo]

I wouldn't do anything but shoot it.

[Buzzard II]

I would just shoot it and don't worry about the details. If it really bothers you try using Van's Bluing. Easy to use cold, follow directions. You could also completely strip it and just apply light oil, and shoot it in the white.

[dondiego]

It is almost like it has been shot previously and cold blued around the nipples.

[flynth]

I'm definitely still enjoying shooting it. However, I also like to keep my guns in a fairly pristine condition despite shooting them a lot so I'll be trying cold blue first and if it looks bad I'll probably use the express bluing on the whole barrel.

There is also the matter of the erroneous info on the distributor's website. If I knew about the paint I would still buy the rifle, but I would know not to use the cleaning method good only for blued steel. Anyway, it is a fairly reputable company so I'm expecting them to make it right. Whatever the partial refund they give me I'll most likely spend with them anyway sooner or later.

Also, in case any Kodiak Express double owners find this thread looking for more information about finding a way to regulate the POI of both barrels to be as close as possible I'll say to shoot your Kodiak double off hand. I tried lots of loads, round ball diameters, patch thicknesses etc and nothing would regulate as long as I was shooting off the bench stand (one of those that support the whole rifle) at 50 meters. I was consistently getting "crossed barrels" with the right barrel shooting about low right and the left one shooting right. I was surprised because my first two shots with the rifle were offhand at 20m with holes touching. Eventually I tried to shoot offhand at 50m with the very first load I tried on the bench before (90 grain black powder, 575 round ball, 8 thou patch) and all the shots were pretty much hitting a common point of aim. Next I tried 100m and the balls were still hitting as they should. So the conclusion is - don't test your double rifle regulation off a fully supported bench stand.

When I researched this further I found out it is common knowledge. The barrels are factory regulated to cross and appropriate load produces recoil torquing the rifle before the bullet/ball leaves the barrel effectively "uncrossing" them so projectiles actually fly parallel despite the barrels being crossed. I would seriously doubt something like this can work if I heard it, but it does :-)

[Geraldo]

Why do you use solvent on BP firearms?

[country gent]

The big English doubles were regulated from a shooting post. A 6x6 cut at the height for the shooter and the top padded. in use the shooter placed forend back of hand into this padded top and leaned into it. This made for a pretty solid rest and still allowed for shooter to work with the heavy recoil.

[flynth]

The big English doubles were regulated from a shooting post. A 6x6 cut at the height for the shooter and the top padded. in use the shooter placed forend back of hand into this padded top and leaned into it. This made for a pretty solid rest and still allowed for shooter to work with the heavy recoil.

This is interesting. I have to try that too.


Why do you use solvent on BP firearms?

It makes removing cap residue much easier. Hot water is great for BP residue, but using something like this (http://protechguns.com/produkty/penetrating-oil-mos2/) means it takes 10 seconds with a soft brass wire brush to clean the primer residue around nipples. I use it before I run hot water through the barrel.

What do you use on cap primer residue? (thick stuff that forms when you fire 50 caps for example)?

It never caused an issue with any of my other BP or nitro guns. The product I linked to is specially formulated to clean guns including BP. It will not mess with real bluing as it pretty much contains only refined petrol and a little MoS2. Steel bluing consists of black oxide of iron. Only things that dissolve metal oxides attack it such as primarily acids (including household items such as vinegar, lemon juice, aspirin etc), but no solvent can do that.

If it is the solvent that stripped the coating it must be some kind of paint. If it is the brush they may have used something called "cold bluing". It is a coating of selenium dioxide. It is actually black without the blue tinge and it (as well as paint) has typically no business being used by an original manufacturer on guns in this price range. I'm quite curious which of the two they used.

Either way, I think potential new owners of the rifle should be told about this and they definitely shouldn't be told the barrels are blued(which Pedersoli never did, but all of their distributors in PL currently still do).

[Randy Bohannon]

The whole barrel is a fine candidate for a nice rust blue finish and waxed up good when its time.

[wch]

Is this indicative of a decrease in finish quality in all new Pedersoli weapons?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
You could also try sitting behind cross sticks. Been using cross sticks for many years and they seem to replicate nicely what to expect what the firearm will do when fired off hand.
We place our hand holding the firearm by the forend just like when standing.
We have an older Kodiak in caliber .72 .
Mike in Peru

[flynth]

Is this indicative of a decrease in finish quality in all new Pedersoli weapons?

I don't think so. I bought their Sharps 1874 Sporting few months ago and the quality is as good as expected. I think it is just a bit of an issue with the Kodiak Express Mk 6. I read a lot about experiences of other owners of the rifle so I was prepared to do a bit of TLC on the locks, and to remove few burrs.

Regarding overall quality I found some machining burrs at the bottom edge of the metal part the barrels hook into. They are invisible until you remove the part so no big deal,they don't touch wood at that particular spot and they can be removed with a needle file. Other than that as expected the locks felt less smooth than on my other Pedersolis. I don't mind the heavy trigger as this is a hunting gun and it should have a fairly heavy trigger pull for safety reasons, but when cocking the locks do feel a bit different in a worse way - it is difficult to exactly explain this as it is a pretty subjective feeling. Again, I think this could be fixed easily by polishing relevant parts of the lock (I already cleaned it and oiled it when I first got the rifle).

Overall, the Kodiak Express Mk 6 is the only black powder big bore double rifle on the market at the moment (other than custom made rifles) I know about. I paid $1200 for mine here in PL (including all the taxes etc) so compared with single barrel BP rifles it is pretty expensive, but when one considers it is either the Kodiak Mk 6 or a custom rifle for $10k+ if you want a double regulated for a single sight it is still a fairly good deal. The previous Kodiak Mk 3 had longer barrels so it felt slightly front heavy and it had two flip up sights - supposedly one for each barrel, although some owners found it did regulate to a single POI and they used one sight for 50m and the other for 100m I think the lack of a guarantee for the POI to regulate kind of defeats the purpose of having a double rifle. So for me it was either the new Kodiak or no double - as I didn't want to take chances with the old Mk 3 and the custom double is outside my hobby budget :cry:

Personally, I wouldn't judge the company based on this one product, but potential owners should be aware this rifle might be a bit different from their other products. I don't know why that is. Maybe they don't sell much of them? I have few other Pedersolis that are almost flawless as far as I can tell. Even the first lowest cost BP muzzleloader rifle I bought, a .50 cal Hawken Hunter with a fast twist barrel is very good quality.

[Hamish]

Personally, I would be VERY upset if I had paid for bluing and found PAINT on the barrels.

[Mac118]

For what it's worth; I've used Lee Express blue and brown with great success. I've achieved some very nice deep results with it applying anywhere from 6-8 coatings on barrels and other parts. The pic below shows the lock area of Hawken I finished last year. Did the barrel, lock, buttplate, triggerguard etc. all with Lee's Express brown.

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[flynth]

Wow, I got a reply from Pedersoli themselves and I was actually speechless for a minute or so. I'll let my question and their reply speak for themselves first and I'll comment below.

This is what I asked them:


Good Afternoon, I've recently purchased a Kodiak Express Mk VI black powder cal 58 rifle and I'm generally happy with my purchase. However, the seller in his error informed me the barrel is blued. I used a cleaning method appropriate for blued barrels (soft brass brush and solvent based cleaner near the nipples) and I unfortunately discovered the barrel is not blued but painted by removing a bit of paint around the nipple holes. Now I have a barrel stripped of paint near the nipples. Still I like the gun very much and I would like to fix its appearance. Therefore I'm writing to you with two questions: - 1st - What type of paint was used to originally paint the barrel? Was it an acrylic paint? If yes, I'll use the same kind to touch it up. - 2nd - Alternatively if I wanted to strip the rest of the paint and hot blue the barrel I need to ask what kind of solder was used to solder the barrels together? Hot bluing bath requires a temperature of up to 154 Celsius. Most lead free soft solders should be fine at that temperature as they melt above 200 degrees Celsius. Lead/Tin solder melts at 188 degrees so it would be a close call, but perhaps possible. There are bismuth solders that melt at lower temperatures. What kind of soft solder are you using to join the barrels and do you think it will be fine at 154 degrees Celsius?

And this is their reply:


Thank you for the preference you had choosing our Kodiak Mark VI Express.
Using the proper solvent for black powder, you should not casue any removal of the blueing, which is a chemical process made by immersion into hot liquid.
Here in our area, there are 2 companies making the blueing for all the guns manufacturers, these 2 companies are strictly controlled for the pollution.
The barrels soldering is made with material that resists high temperatures.
You may use cold blueing for a small portion of the barrel, the products can be found in internet.

To me this extremely vague answer comes across as very rude to someone asking about very specific things about an item he purchased that then turned out not to be as advertised. I'm asking them exactly what temperature solder they used and the answer is "high", you know what, it is definitely not brazed but soft soldered - anyone with a fingernail can tell the difference so it isn't really high. I'm asking them what paint they used, and they first claim erroneously it is "bluing" (to which claim I would probably concede had I not have 4 other guns made by them with barrels that are really blued) and then they tell me they outsource the process to two companies that a strictly controlled for pollution :-o What does this have to do with anything?

I don't know who wrote that reply as he or she didn't even sign the email - it was simply signed "Customer Service", but I have to assume it was someone who doesn't know much about the products. I asked for my query to be passed up to someone more competent and we'll see what happens. I think someone in that company must know this is not real bluing or why would they not describe it as blued when they especially mention bluing in a description on almost every other product.

[flynth]

I also took some microscope photos that show exactly what is on that barrel:

First the kodiak. The left image shows a bit of engraving that goes around both barrels under magnification of 100. The right image shows a bit of the damaged area under same magnification.
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Higher resolution available here (https://imgur.com/a/c9qmfkR) (click on image after opening to zoom in)

The image is annotated so I'll not repeat why I think this doesn't look like bluing at all.

Then my side by side smoothbore that is really blued. The first two images (left and center) show the same engraving as on the Kodiak, but on my side by side smoothbore also by Pedersoli. The image on the right shows a ding on the bottom of the barrel.
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Higher resolution version available here (https://imgur.com/a/wRNxlro) (click on image after opening to zoom in)

I think this should settle it if anyone had any doubts.

[dondiego]

Was the response from Italy? Someone who's first language is not English did fairly well. If you feel it was a vague and rude response, you are going to be insulted quite often.

[flynth]

Yes, it was from Italy. Hmm, I thought about what you said initially. I couldn't believe they would seriously reply like this. I considered it is not that person's first language etc.

Then I came to a conclusion it is unlikely that they didn't understand my query.

I asked them some questions before (years ago) and I received a very precise reply that answered my question fully. If they had trouble understanding my questions or replying they could've even used Google translate. Between languages like English, German, Italian it is pretty good these days.

When I asked what temperature the solder they use can resist and they reply "high"?! Come on, it would be funny if it wasn't sad. Or when they said if I used a black powder compatible solvent it wouldn't strip their "bluing". Please. There is no solvent that can strip iron oxide.

I'm kind of hoping the next reply from them will restore my trust in their customer service. If not, perhaps the truth is they simply don't care about customer service? It's not like one can go and buy a product of comparable quality anywhere else and they know it.

However, legally it is the seller not the manufacturer that is responsible for a misleading description of a product here in PL. Also in Polish there is a different word that describes Iron oxide based bluing such as used on guns and bluing as application of color blue. There is no possibility of confusing iron oxide based bluing with anything else. So I'm quite confident I'll get a good partial refund eventually once I get to the end of the proper procedure.

[oldred]

Hi,
'm considering trying so called cold bluing, then if it doesn't help perhaps trying something like Mark Lee Express Blue #1 as sold by Brownells as it doesn't require temperatures as high as hot bluing which could damage soft solder used to join the barrels together. What do you think?


Don't waste your time with cold blue you will only end up with what you have already! The Mark Lee "Express Blue" is what I use and it's REALLY good stuff, it's a true rust blue that not only looks great but is as tough as bluing gets plus it's quick and easy to do. Investment material is minimal, the Mark Lee solution, 0000 steel wool, a tank long enough to heat some distilled water and a means to heat it to boiling. If you're not familiar with rust blue you can search this site, there is a ton of info on how to do it and you will find it's not only relatively easy but it can be done in only one day.

About the soft solder and hot bluing, HEAT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the bluing process destroying the solder!!!! What ruins the solder joint is the chemical reaction as the bluing salts will attack the solder and dissolve it away, this happens very quickly since the reaction starts instantly upon contact even if the solution is COLD!

I mention this because just recently I got into a rather frustrating discussion with a guy who was going to let a friend of his hot blue a soft soldered double shotgun after this "friend" had convinced him he could do it without harm. His story was that he could do this by keeping the temperature low and just leaving it in longer but that's just plain nonsense as hot blue doesn't work that way. The point is don't let anyone tell you there is a way soft solder double barrels can be safely hot blued no matter what temperature they attempt to use, there's simply no way that bluing solution is going to get anywhere near hot enough to soften those joints but chemically it will destroy the solder and do it very quickly!

Besides that Mark Lee rust blue is better than hot blue anyway.

[flynth]

Don't waste your time with cold blue you will only end up with what you have already! The Mark Lee "Express Blue" is what I use and it's REALLY good stuff, it's a true rust blue that not only looks great but is as tough as bluing gets plus it's quick and easy to do. Investment material is minimal, the Mark Lee solution, 0000 steel wool, a tank long enough to heat some distilled water and a means to heat it to boiling. If you're not familiar with rust blue you can search this site, there is a ton of info on how to do it and you will find it's not only relatively easy but it can be done in only one day.

About the soft solder and hot bluing, HEAT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the bluing process destroying the solder!!!! What ruins the solder joint is the chemical reaction as the bluing salts will attack the solder and dissolve it away, this happens very quickly since the reaction starts instantly upon contact even if the solution is COLD!

I mention this because just recently I got into a rather frustrating discussion with a guy who was going to let a friend of his hot blue a soft soldered double shotgun after this "friend" had convinced him he could do it without harm. His story was that he could do this by keeping the temperature low and just leaving it in longer but that's just plain nonsense as hot blue doesn't work that way. The point is don't let anyone tell you there is a way soft solder double barrels can be safely hot blued no matter what temperature they attempt to use, there's simply no way that bluing solution is going to get anywhere near hot enough to soften those joints but chemically it will destroy the solder and do it very quickly!

Besides that Mark Lee rust blue is better than hot blue anyway.

Thanks for this oldred. I've ordered Mark Lee "Express Blue" and a tank from Brownells. Surprisingly they have a posting office in every EU country. It takes up to 3 weeks for them to deliver stuff they have in their US warehouse, but they only charge for local postage so ordering from them definitely beats importing stuff individually.

[Beagle333]

If you have access to a cabinet or a smith who'll do it..... a nice rust blue is really hard to beat. I had my barrel on my GPR rust blued and it is superb.

[BPJONES]

As mentioned by oldred, do not use the caustic acid hot blue method on soft soldered barrels. The acid will eat the solder.

[oldred]

If you have access to a cabinet or a smith who'll do it..... a nice rust blue is really hard to beat. I had my barrel on my GPR rust blued and it is superb.

The Mark Lee Express Blue does the job in a day without a cabinet and the result is the same. Done properly (and it's actually quite easy) the Express Blue will produce the fine rust coating in only a minute or so instead of eight to twelve hours. I have done both the old classic slow rust bluing and the "Express" formulas and honestly I can't tell the difference in either depth of color or durability, Express Blue is all I use anymore.

[quail4jake]

I would be very surprised if you get anything better from any of these Italian replica outfits. Once you buy it, good luck! I would take the opportunity to do some homespun gunsmithing and turn it into an aged appearing good shooter. It's a miracle that those barrels are regulated so well, if it shoots to your satisfaction then it's a keeper. Consider striking the barrels and polish to take the burr off the roll stamps or even remove the roll stamps, file and polish the rough edges, smooth the crowns and do a real old time rust brown. strip and sand the stock, darken the mortise edges with oxalic acid, strike the buttplate edges and refit the breech tang etc, apply a nice simple oil finish. Work the locks to smooth and polish off the bogous case hardening stuff, file the parting lines out and brown those parts. I did this with my Pedersoli 12 bore double, a Zoli Zouave, Uberti S&W #3 and a few others...look great and I'm not afraid to use 'em hard. I had a couple other "spaghetti specials" that didn't perform well and I sold 'em as they weren't worth the effort. Sounds like your's has real potential, good luck!

[quail4jake]

You can get all the stuff to smith muzzle loaders from Dixon's in Kempton, PA. They give good advice too, old time nice Family business...good folks. I wonder how an expanding ball would work in that?

[flynth]

I thought readers of this thread would be interested to know how this was resolved. Basically, the seller agreed to either swap the rifle, blue the barrels for me, or to pay me the equivalent of how much it costs to have such barrels blued. I chose to take the money as I didn't want to swap those good shooting barrels for another pair of possibly unknown regulation and I already ordered Mark Lee's express blue with a suitable container so I will be able to blue them myself.

Also, the seller sent me photos of their testing of other Kodiak Express Mk 6 58 cal barrels they have in stock. Based on their tests other barrels appear to be genuinely blued. After looking at their photos and the conversation I had with the seller I think it is likely I got an odd rifle and others probably should expect their Kodiak Mk6 barrels to be properly blued. Neither I nor he has any idea how among thousands of blued rifles, one that is painted can appear. It is definitely not used - it came new in the box from Italy.

Anyway, from my point of view this resolves the issue. I got compensated for the lack of bluing, other rifles they have in stock appear to be blued as they should. Rifle shoots well. Today I took it to the range and shooting in a standing position resting the rifle on my left hand on top of a wooden pole cut to length I found that with 120gr of powder, .575 ball and a 12 thou patch both barrels consistently shoot about 3 inches apart both at 50 and 100 meters. That is a pretty good result.

[Pamtnman]

I thought readers of this thread would be interested to know how this was resolved. Basically, the seller agreed to either swap the rifle, blue the barrels for me, or to pay me the equivalent of how much it costs to have such barrels blued. I chose to take the money as I didn't want to swap those good shooting barrels for another pair of possibly unknown regulation and I already ordered Mark Lee's express blue with a suitable container so I will be able to blue them myself.

Also, the seller sent me photos of their testing of other Kodiak Express Mk 6 58 cal barrels they have in stock. Based on their tests other barrels appear to be genuinely blued. After looking at their photos and the conversation I had with the seller I think it is likely I got an odd rifle and others probably should expect their Kodiak Mk6 barrels to be properly blued. Neither I nor he has any idea how among thousands of blued rifles, one that is painted can appear. It is definitely not used - it came new in the box from Italy.

Anyway, from my point of view this resolves the issue. I got compensated for the lack of bluing, other rifles they have in stock appear to be blued as they should. Rifle shoots well. Today I took it to the range and shooting in a standing position resting the rifle on my left hand on top of a wooden pole cut to length I found that with 120gr of powder, .575 ball and a 12 thou patch both barrels consistently shoot about 3 inches apart both at 50 and 100 meters. That is a pretty good result.

Flynth, three inches apart at 100 meters (110 yards) is good indeed for a modern double percussion rifle. British and Continental double rifles of the 1870s-1890s achieved perfect accuracy at up to 300 yards, but then again, they cost an arm and a leg, so that kind of precision was expected. May I suggest that, if you have not already done so, you continue to experiment a bit more with a bit more powder, maybe slightly thicker patch material. The goal is to see if you can get the rifle barrels to actually converge, or land within an inch of one another, at 100 meters. That kind of pattern is true regulation, and if your rifle is already that close, then a bit more fiddling with powder and patch thickness might get you over the goal line, as we say in America. Then you would be hitting exactly to point of aim with both barrels, making any follow-up shot a true on-target followup.
By the way, I would like to commend you for your mastery of English. Several years ago I was hunting in NW Scotland and a pack of hungry long hikers descended upon the remote village and guest house I was in. I listened as this group of fine young men spoke in the most excellent American English over dinner, and I went over to introduce myself to them, ask what cities they were from, etc. After all, I was the only American there, and the only American likely to be there most of the season. And to my surprise, they were all Polish. Very impressive.