2.2cc recoiling more than 2.5cc?

[Stopsign32v]

Well I went out to shoot my Colt SAA today and was sending 250gr bullets down range with 2 loads. The first was 2.2cc of ffg and the other was 2.5cc of ffg. The idea was the 2.2cc was going to be the more tame, pleasure to shoot over the 2.5cc. However it definitely seemed that the 2.2cc loads had noticeable more recoil, but this doesn't make sense to me.

The 2.2cc had barely a 1/16 inch compression. Does the lack of compression add to recoil?

[MT Chambers]

You are using a measuring system that is not compatible with anything, use grains like most do, and no, usually the more compression, the livelier the report/recoil.

[indian joe]

You are using a measuring system that is not compatible with anything, use grains like most do, and no, usually the more compression, the livelier the report/recoil.

What difference will naming it in grains make?????? he's clearly told us the 2.2 cc scoop load seems to recoil more than the 2.5cc scoop load ---(makes no sense to me at all but at least he is not tellin us grains volume) ...thinking if he shot the heavier loads second - by time he got to that - maybe was getting used to the recoil and sound?
A proper blackpowder load in a colt is a whole different experience than the pffft pfffft of smokeless - even if the smokeless load is similar velocity.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Just a wild guess here, but if there is air space in case with the smaller charge I believe the burn rate would be different than the compressed load. I would run them through a chronograph to verify what's really happening.

AntiqueSledMan.

[psweigle]

Did you seat the ball to the same depth with both charges? If so, there was most likely air space (which is VERY BAD!!!!) behind the lower volume charge.

[indian joe]

guys .
He told us a Colt SAA and 250 grain bullets ...................... a 45 colt cartridge gun .....yes
he also told us the 2.2 CC had barely 1/16th compression ...................is that airspace ???? .......

LEE chart sez 2.2cc = 35gr FFF
2.5cc = 38.9 gr FFF

[EDG]

You might have mixed up and have 2 sets of loads crossed up.

[psweigle]

Thanks Indian Jim, I missed the cartridge part. My bad.

[AntiqueSledMan]

"He told us a Colt SAA and 250 grain bullets ...................... a 45 colt cartridge gun .....yes
he also told us the 2.2 CC had barely 1/16th compression ...................is that airspace ???? ......."

Sorry Guys,

I read it wrong. Apparently more compression does make a difference.
I'd still run them through a chronograph just to see what's happening.

AntiqueSledMan.

[JBinMN]

You might have mixed up and have 2 sets of loads crossed up.

That was my first thought.

[bigted]

I can assure you all that having loaded these very same loads AND used the very same Lee dippers ... that and the 250+ grain boolits ... these both will bark n snarl.

My experience mirrors the above in that the 2.2cc dipper throws close to 35 grains of 2F black powder and the 2.5cc dipper throws 39 to 40 grains 2F black powder.

The 35 grain load (2.2cc dipper ) is very crisp under the 250's while those 40 grain loads ( 2.5cc dipper ) is crisp + ! Those 40 grain loads allow you to get aquainted with your revolver in a real way. These 40 grain loads recoil very much more then the 35 grain loads.

Having said this ... I also would be suspicious of the possibility of mixing these two loads and mistaking one for the other. These two are very noticeable in their difference.

[indian joe]

I can assure you all that having loaded these very same loads AND used the very same Lee dippers ... that and the 250+ grain boolits ... these both will bark n snarl.

My experience mirrors the above in that the 2.2cc dipper throws close to 35 grains of 2F black powder and the 2.5cc dipper throws 39 to 40 grains 2F black powder.

The 35 grain load (2.2cc dipper ) is very crisp under the 250's while those 40 grain loads ( 2.5cc dipper ) is crisp + ! Those 40 grain loads allow you to get aquainted with your revolver in a real way. These 40 grain loads recoil very much more then the 35 grain loads.

Having said this ... I also would be suspicious of the possibility of mixing these two loads and mistaking one for the other. These two are very noticeable in their difference.

Bigted echos my suspicion about mixing the loads - easy enough to do unless you very perticular about such things.

I never owned a 45 but ran 35 and 40 grain FFFg loads in a 44/40 ASM/ colt with 225 grain boolit over top ....I think 40 grains of FFFg in a handgun would get most peoples attention ----it was certainly fun at the local club night shoots .......................

[Froogal]

I am not an expert by any means, but a fellow that shoots in C.A.S. with me, and uses black powder cartridges, told me that if you want a reduced recoil black powder load, you CAN reduce the amount of powder, but that volume needs to be replaced with something like "Cream of Wheat". If you normally load 2.5 cc, and reduce that to 2.2, then you need .3 cc of cream of wheat.

[Stopsign32v]

They were not mixed at all and I even went from 2.2cc to 2.5cc and then later back to 2.2cc. Unless it was all in my head, the 2.2cc was more recoil. The depth was equal, however the 2.5cc loads had more crimp to them. That is the only difference.

And yes, the recoil of the black powder is no joke. I remember reading that people were saying 8.5 grains of Unique is = to the old black powder chargers....The rubbed/cut raw part of the webbing of my thumb disagrees greatly. They might be the same in velocity but a black powder charge of 45 colt recoil wise feels like a magnum load of smokeless to me.

[indian joe]

They were not mixed at all and I even went from 2.2cc to 2.5cc and then later back to 2.2cc. Unless it was all in my head, the 2.2cc was more recoil. The depth was equal, however the 2.5cc loads had more crimp to them. That is the only difference.

And yes, the recoil of the black powder is no joke. I remember reading that people were saying 8.5 grains of Unique is = to the old black powder chargers....The rubbed/cut raw part of the webbing of my thumb disagrees greatly. They might be the same in velocity but a black powder charge of 45 colt recoil wise feels like a magnum load of smokeless to me.

ok you are perticular and they werent mixed --it was just a thought not an accusation:-)

these things are FUN to shoot with a full charge --the most fun of all is the look on the face of other people when they try a few shots -- or the crowd that gathers when you shoot a cylinder full under a low tin roof at night at the local pistol club - those boys get used to the pffft pfffft of smokeless. I had one bloke hand my gun back after three shots and said it was like a 44 magnum to shoot - the real fun part of that was he's the club hotshot - won every aggregate in the place - me an a young feller spectating went up to pull the targets down and ........ mr clubman clean missed all three with that ole hogleg of mine - thatwas really fun!!!!!

Ya know there is a message from the universe here dont ya ??? go full throttle :bigsmyl2:

[bigted]

Did not mean any disrespect either.

I once loaded 20 with 40 grains 2F and also loaded 20 with 40 grains of 3F powder. I swore the 2F loads shot harder then the 3F loads. Never did figure that one out ... come to think ... I never replicated that lil spearmint ... guess I should just to check and see if my feel is the same now as then.

Redo your loadings and see if you can replicate your mystery.

Worse that can happen is HAVING to shoot some more.

[greenjoytj]

Better still, do the blind taste test Pepsi challenge.
Make another batch of reloads, identical except for the two different powder charge weights.
Have a friend randomly load your revolver with a single cartridge that only he knows from which ammo box that cartridge was drawn from and he makes a written note of it.
You fire off all the shots and write down your opinion of the perceived amount of recoil.
After all the shooting is finished, compare notes to see if the heavier powder charged cartridges matched your opinion of the perceived recoil.

Also if the test shots could be run through a chronograph with a remote read out panel that only the loader could see and take note of the reported muzzle velocity. His would really help solve the question which shot really produced the higher recoil impulse when the shooter compares his notes to the loader notes vs chrono recorded MV.

Also use a scale weight the black powder charges so you know what weight of fuel actually when into the cartridge cases,

[Stopsign32v]

I'm not completely sure I want to try 35gr of black powder again :Fire:

They are fun for a cylinder or two but then it becomes "Dang, these hurt".

I might go down to a lesser load with a filler card or something. I do really like the 35gr black powder loads in my 1866 Winchester!

[bigted]

Stopsign , my 40 grain 2F loads using Ol E powder work very well in my 16 inch Miroku 1873 carbine. VERY WELL!!!

They are very clean and accirate to boot. I bet your 1866 is a hoot to shoot! My 40 grain loads expand the cases against the chamber wall so as to not experience any blow back. Barrel is super clean also. Boolit used is Accurates mold 454260 big lube groove. Has plenty of the SPG lube to do the deed.

[Larry Gibson]

Was loading some 45 Colts with BP under the Lyman 454190 (255 gr with 16-1) and found my Lee 2.2 cc dipper threw 35 gr GOEX Cartridge and 34.5 fffg Superfine.

I also loaded test increments with a 3 gr spread from 19 to 34.5 gr using GOEX ffffg using a wheat bran filler on all but the 34.5 gr load. Initial test fire (3 shots) of the 19 gr load demonstrated the sky did not fall so formal pressure testing (in Contender with Oehler M43 PBL) will take place soon.

[Stopsign32v]

Stopsign , my 40 grain 2F loads using Ol E powder work very well in my 16 inch Miroku 1873 carbine. VERY WELL!!!

They are very clean and accirate to boot. I bet your 1866 is a hoot to shoot! My 40 grain loads expand the cases against the chamber wall so as to not experience any blow back. Barrel is super clean also. Boolit used is Accurates mold 454260 big lube groove. Has plenty of the SPG lube to do the deed.

The carrier or whatever you call it was black but I took off the side plates and it was very clean inside!

With that said I crimped the crap out of them and used 2.5cc which is I think 35gr of FFG Goex. Accuracy wasn't near as good as the 8.5gr of Unique under a copper plated .452 bullet though.

OH OH I forgot to add, I really like the patina to the 1866 the black powder gives.

[bigted]

Was loading some 45 Colts with BP under the Lyman 454190 (255 gr with 16-1) and found my Lee 2.2 cc dipper threw 35 gr GOEX Cartridge and 34.5 fffg Superfine.

I also loaded test increments with a 3 gr spread from 19 to 34.5 gr using GOEX ffffg using a wheat bran filler on all but the 34.5 gr load. Initial test fire (3 shots) of the 19 gr load demonstrated the sky did not fall so formal pressure testing (in Contender with Oehler M43 PBL) will take place soon.

That is kool Larry. Look forward to seeing your test results

[bigted]

The carrier or whatever you call it was black but I took off the side plates and it was very clean inside!

With that said I crimped the crap out of them and used 2.5cc which is I think 35gr of FFG Goex. Accuracy wasn't near as good as the 8.5gr of Unique under a copper plated .452 bullet though.

OH OH I forgot to add, I really like the patina to the 1866 the black powder gives.

I have found that accuracy with black powder is accomplished only with great fouling control efforts. I have gone the whole gambit with black powder and can attest to the benefit of a good fouling control method.

In my case (as in others here where most of my education stems from) , the lube quality is the secret to fouling control.

Also king is the powder quality. I have and use GOEX plain powder in my muzzle loaders. But for good repeat shots in loading cartridge guns, I use now only Old E powder and mostly 2F size. I find that the Old E 2F grade powder is easy to get good fouling control with.

Swiss is spose to be as good or better then Old E but it is pretty expensive, which would be ok too as the better grades of powder are so much easier to keep fouling control in step.

I also like the black powder patina.