Lee 7/8 oz slug questions [Archive]

ncmn

07-27-2019, 07:46 PM

Well I got the bug from reading all the shotgun slug posts on here and ordered up a Lee 7/8 oz mold.I am completely new to shotgun reloading so I have a few questions. I bought some Fiocchi 2 3/4 primed hulls and plan on using one of these powders HS-6, Titewad, Clays or maybe Unique. Got about 200 slugs casted and I have loaded a few test rounds with HS-6 with Claybuster Lighting and Claybuster Federal clones of 12S0 wads. My question is after seeing Ajays posts on pressure to push the wads thru the bore to test tightness with about 10-12 lbs resistance. I done a test with the 12S0 clone and it is to tight to go down the bore without the nitro card, and the Lighting is to lose. I have a H&R Pardner Protector 12 gauge 18 1/2" Cylinder bore shotgun that I am doing the tests with. I also have some Federal 12S0 wads now and the Trap Commander wads that Ajay recommended and they are very tight as well. The slugs are casted from range scrap lead and are about .690 at the widest part of the slug. The barrel is about .730 with caliper measurements as best as I can tell. I do not hunt anymore so the rounds will be used for range fun and home defense purposes only. The test rounds were loaded with 32 grains of HS-6 but after seeing the pressure testing of the wads going backwards thru the barrel I am afraid to shoot them? Do you think they will be safe too shoot, as I do not want to blow up a good shotgun or worse get myself hurt. I do have the Lymans # 5 manual and I am following all the correct reloading procedures, but do not want to make a big mistake. I have been reloading rifle and pistol for 30 years but the 12 gauge is new to me and do not want to mess up. Want some help from the slug pros Ajay, Longbow and others. As I am totally scare to pull the trigger now that I saw the tightness of the wad slug combo. Please help a newbie slug caster.
Ron

Hogtamer

07-27-2019, 09:28 PM

12 lbs of pressure I always thought was arbitrary. 10,000 lbs going the other way will get it out ok. I would back off the Hs-6 load about 5 grns for recoils sake. Might even help performance too. Welcome to the forum where we weigh our lead in ounces!

ncmn

07-28-2019, 10:53 AM

Thanks for the response, and I guess it was a stupid question. Just had me a little concerned as I saw Ajays post after the shells were already loaded. I also got a # 00 buck mold at the same time and have probably five lbs of them casted ready to load. The # 00 buck was a little harder to cast than the slugs but I finally got the hang of it. I have test rounds for them as well, but not concerned about them as they are loaded light to start with. I am planning on casting several hundred more slugs but the temperatures are going to have to cool down some first. Next on my agenda will be the round ball loads, have not decided on which mold to buy yet. All I have is a Lee Load All 2 that I purchased about 6 years ago, and it seems to be working alright for the slugs and buckshot loads. I bought it to load some light trap loads with, but never got around to loading many rounds with it. I dug it out of storage after seeing all the fun you guys have with slugs. Also, casting always eases the stress levels from the day job and I enjoy reloading as well. Keep the posts coming guys and Thanks

SuperBlazingSabots

07-28-2019, 11:40 AM

Greetings Ncmn, You made a very good choice choosing the Lee 7/8 oz slug mold.
What I do not know is the H&R Pardner Protector 12 gauge 18 1/2" Cylinder bore OD at the muzzle. It would help if you were to measure it and let us know.
The loading cards from Lee does have some Hot loads, HS6 most people stop around 32 grains
https://i.imgur.com/i2DeHFj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CigHhnF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qhrOkRZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CtlOdHK.jpg
For shooter with a rifled barrel the Trap Commander is a great wad.
https://i.imgur.com/Xe5oie3.jpg

The secret to give the slug a firm base at launch is the .125 16 ga or .125 20 ga nitro cards based on the wad you choose, I buy them from Circle fly at double the quantity and much cheaper.

Learning to cook your own is great fun and enjoy while you are at it, pretty soon you'll be teaching us too ! !
Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

ncmn

07-28-2019, 01:18 PM

Using my calipers on the inside of the bore the best I can get is .730 and I do not know what the China made 870 copies are normally. The gun seems like it is very well made and it has the steel receiver just like the 870 but not sure if its as good as the Remington. I know one thing it is not a light shotgun to tote around. Thanks Ajay and Hogtamer, I may just have to go outside and blast away and see what happens.

SuperBlazingSabots

07-28-2019, 02:41 PM

I meant the outside diameter of the barrel at the muzzle.
Ajay

ncmn

07-28-2019, 03:47 PM

My fault Ajay you did say OD. Just measured and its .878 best I can tell. Just come in from making 200 more slugs. Thanks Ron

longbow

07-28-2019, 05:35 PM

I'd be willing to bet that even ACWW or range scrap slugs will swage to suit if the fit is tight. That and the wad petals will squish thinner too or shear. I've shot some pretty tight slug/wad combos and while accuracy wasn't great they shot fine. Wad petals sheared on those.

When you consider that the Lyman Foster slugs in pure lead slug up to fill the bore, as do pretty much any soft lead Foster slugs, I have to think that creates more bore friction and pressure than a hard slug that gets driven into the bore at firing then pretty much coasts on through. It seems to be well accepted that shot loads produce more pressure for given payload and powder charge than slugs do.

Regardless, the Lee slug and most typical Foster style slugs are hollow right into the nose so the entire slug can be squeezed down fairly easily. I wouldn't try an oversize solid slug in the same way though. That might take a bit much to swage it down.

As always though it is better to err on the side of safety and start with reduced powder charge then work up to the recommended charge. If you get sticky extraction on the way up then stop and reduce charge a bit. Sticky extraction is a sure sign of over pressure!

Longbow

ncmn

07-28-2019, 08:43 PM

Thanks Longbow, I was running out of lead so I filled the pot with only lead this time for the last batch of slugs. Going to try and see the difference in the two. With the Lee loading data that was with the slug and above in the post, I was thinking the Fiocchi hulls would be comparable to the Federal with the 12S0 and I reduced the load down to 32 grains of HS-6, where Lee was posting 42 grains. No way was I starting at 42 grains even before I found the tight fit. One thing for sure, I really like the Lee 7/8 oz mold and hopefully I can find a loading that works. I will test the loads tomorrow and see what happens. I am learning as I go and y'all have forgotten more than I know about this, that's why I posted wanting help.

Hogtamer

07-28-2019, 09:00 PM

Good luck and it will be fun.

swheeler

07-29-2019, 12:13 AM

megasupermagnum

07-29-2019, 12:50 AM

I have not done a lot of slug shooting this summer due to the range being closed most of it. I spent most of the time trying to get these Lee 7/8 oz slugs to shoot good with little luck. I've ran into 3 problems. The first being fit, no combo I've tried will push through any of my barrels with 10 pounds of pressure. Even my smooth bore mossberg 500 with a .733" bore was a tight fit with the WAASL, the thinnest combo I had. Mine casts about .686" at the widest, and tapers way down at the base. I really can't understand why Lee would have them taper like this. Still with a tight fit, I've not had wad petals shearing with the loads I'm shooting. This brings me to problem 2 and 3. The wad petals are scrunching up, many times on one side only causing all kinds of havoc on accuracy. The other was wads pushing into the base. By now everyone knows plastic wads are not strong enough. I was having 18 gauge nitro cards push into the hollow base. Filling the base with PSB buffer worked, although was a pain. The best fix was to fill with hot glue. I'm not shooting heavy loads, I've stuck with light loads that should only be running 1100-1300 fps. The very best load I've got is a winchester hull with WAASL wad and one 18 gauge nitro card, slug with hot glue filled base, and 20 grains of American Select. This combo shoots 2-3" at 50 yards from my rifled barrel USH, and about 5" from the one smooth bore I tried.

It's been a fun experiment with a $20 investment, but all this has lead me back to the .735" round ball as the best choice for the handloader short range slug. The wad is a tough variable to overcome with the Lee, and does not work across multiple shotguns. The best wad slug I know of is the long discontinued buckbuster, and I believe it worked be being small, and bumping up during firing, something the Lee slug doesn't seem to be capable of despite my trying. The buckbuster was had straight .681" sides, and the hollow base was filled with hot glue or similar. The Lee 7/8 oz reverse tapered body gets a thumbs down from me. A .680" to .685" round ball would be a better choice if the .735" round ball doesn't suit you.

longbow

07-29-2019, 07:49 PM

msm:

I'm surprised you are having trouble with fit like that or tight fit anyway.

I have Winchester wads and Claybuster clone of Winchester and the Lee slug are a loose fit in my 0.733" bore single shot Cooey. Loose as in drop through.

I'm with you on the taper. I think it is way too much but Randy Buchanan checked with the recommended Federal wads and he says the Lyman sabot slug and Lee slugs which have about the same taper fit them perfectly... as to taper of course. Fit to bore depends on the gun.

I have a loose bored Cooey with 0.733" bore and my new to me Mossberg Slugster which runs about 0.729" checked with inside mike. I'll drive a 0.75" RB through then mic it but it is much tighter than the Cooey.

I have cast range scrap or wheelweights Almost exclusively for slugs as I do not have a lot of soft lead. My feeling is that the soft lead may help with fit in that if tight it gives easily and if loose it slugs up. I can say for sure that my Lyman Foster slugs slug up from 0.705" as cast to fill the bore of my shotguns at firing. I have recovered them from snow and they are perfect bore fit after firing... of course the nose on each one is cocked differently and skirts are uneven due to uncontrolled slug up.

I think that fit is king just as with metallic cartridge guns and that undersize slugs are a problem. Typical HB slugs will swage down quite easily by several thou. If a guy loaded a 0.740" slug with thick skirt and cast from hard lead it might be a bit different story but I know that even ACWW RB's casting at 0.735" + swage down easily to suit my guns.

Got to go... but I'll be back!

Longbow

ncmn

07-29-2019, 09:00 PM

megasupermagnum
I feel your pain and I have to admit the slugs cast great but I have my doubts as well. I am going to shoot some and see for myself but I maybe throwing a bunch of slugs back in the pot to make buckshot. At least reading your post makes me feel better that I am not the only one with a very tight fit. I am going to load a few with the Federal and Commander wads to test against the clones and will post my results. As far as round ball goes, I have not tried anything yet as this is my first time loading anything other than shot in 12 gauge. I have no idea what round ball to try in the wads since I have had this trouble.

Longbow/Ajay
I checked my bore again and paid close attention to the calipers as I moved around the bore, and I believe the bore is .733 instead of .730. I do not have a round ball big enough to check it like normally. I have to admit I have not tried to push them down the bore with a dowel rod yet, but with the super tight fit I felt like it was a waste of time. I will pick up a dowel rod and try again, and give it a better test. I did not have time to get to shoot the test rounds tonight but probably can tomorrow night. I am not giving up yet cause I really like the way the slugs look and cast. I wonder if someone on here has ever made a size die for these? I bought a Lee size die for a Non Lee available size for my 45-70 from someone on here several years ago but I cannot remember his name?

Thanks for the help and I will keep working on this little project.
Ron

megasupermagnum

07-29-2019, 09:17 PM

In the spring I casted a small coffee can, all with 40:1 alloy. They casted decent, with minimal rejects. I've only purchased commercial Lyman sabot slugs, but they measured .681" at the widest. That provided a much better fit than the .686" Lee slug. The OP claims his range scrap casts a full .690". Maybe casting some of pure lead would be a worthwhile attempt? Lee does state to use pure lead only. I'm sure there is a combo out there I could eventually get to work, but I'm calling it for this year until a future revisit.

The best source of round ball molds is JT molds, they can make any size ball mold. They are back in business, the son has taken over. .735" is a great size that will work in any 12 gauge, assuming your bore is less than .735". If you want to stick to a wad slug, I would recommend .680", although I have never tried one personally. The .735" weighs just shy of 1 3/8 oz, and can safely be loaded with plenty of 1 3/8 oz shot data. The .680" is just shy of 1 1/8 oz, and has a mountain of data. The one and only disadvantage to the round ball is that I would not send them through a choke. Improved cylinder would be fine, but I would not shoot them through a modified or tighter choke.

ncmn

07-30-2019, 08:15 PM

Well shot 4 test rounds today and at least hit what I was shooting at. Test was only about 15 yards but was not able to find wads due to high brush and weeds. I shot two HS-6 rounds one 32 and one 34, one Titewad and one Unique. No sticky extraction, no primer issues, no split barrel so all is well with the test rounds. I will go to the range and do some serious testing in the next couple weeks. Got to say that I favor Unique as I shoot it in a lot of other loads, but will have to see what has the best accuracy. I am going to load some with the Federal wads and the Commander wads next and use the other wads for buckshot loads. I appreciate all the help and this is going be fun guys! May have to order up a Lyman 525 and a round ball mold now.

megasupermagnum

07-30-2019, 08:24 PM

I actually found the federal 12S4 to fit pretty well, when using four 1/8" hard cards under the slug anyway. The petals are thinner near the top. The problem with this combo I never solved, the petals always scrunch up during firing. This would not be a problem with a straight sided slug. The 12S0 was way too tight for me.

longbow

07-30-2019, 08:37 PM

Are you trimming petals back to the bottom of the nose ogive? I've had very few recovered wads with scrunched petals even when long. If they are trimmed back they shouldn't get scrunched.

You won't get any argument with me over round balls. So far they are still my favourite projectile in shotguns. I still like both 0.735" RB's for the same reasons you mention and 0.662" RB's cloth patched into wads. Both have done well for me in the past. The cloth patching takes a bit of time but since they are patched into standard shot cups really I guess no more time than building a wad column. The cloth patching allows custom fit with a bit of give though if you have a variety of bore diameters you'd have to mark different cloth/ball combos if you wanted to keep fits separate.

That's actually why I wanted to try the Nessler balle idea and I have to say that some shot very well but some obviously tumbled so that wasn't a great success. I have taken the same slug and screwed felt wads on to see if that improves things.

I am still wanting to get the rifled choke tube attached and tried as well and again if it works with round ball that would suit me fine!

I still think a slightly oversize slug or RB/wad combo that squishes down to suit the bore is the way to go. However, if it was that easy we wouldn't still be looking for the solution I guess!!

Longbow

Master24149

07-30-2019, 09:12 PM

Have you slugged the barrel? If I missed this in your post I apologize; I tend to get ahead of myself. Also, have you weighed your slugs? You mentioned they were composed of range scrap which leads me to believe that the weight may vary. I would do these two things before pulling the trigger. Have a “blast” at the range!(no pun intended).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hogtamer

07-30-2019, 09:57 PM

Yay! Burnt powder! Congrats. May I suggest doing your testing at 50 yds now that you've proven to yourself that you make shootable loads. Why? 1) you'll find out where your gun shoots using only a bead and the way your cheek lays on the stock; 2) it will be easier to determine which load shoots the best at say a 6" target spot. Also, make sure your aiming system, be it "punkin on the post" or covering the circle with your bead is the same from one load to the next and let the target tell the tale. Don't adjust mid stream! i have 6-or is it 7 870 barrels....no matter, exactly one barrel, an old sawed off to 22" with a hack saw that groups better than any of the others with the same load. I've shot an awful pile of these things over the years looking for perfection but never found it. But I killed a buck at 65 yds and 7 or 8 hogs with them from smoothbore. They'll do fine for your stated purpose.246034

bikerbeans

07-31-2019, 02:17 PM

I guarantee Hogtamer csn kill a hog with a lee slug. I watched him do it.

BB

ncmn

08-01-2019, 08:14 PM

I do not doubt it at all, from the size of the holes in the target I shot at it looks like they will take down about anything. Now I want to find a scope mount and scope for the 12 gauge so I can get better accuracy as the bead sight leaves a lot to be desired.

Hogtamer

08-01-2019, 08:39 PM

Got an 870 in the house? Don't know about a scope on the Pardner unless it has rails.

gpidaho

08-02-2019, 12:46 AM

I like a scope on my shotguns but then we don't have feral hogs up here in Idaho that might chase you through the brush. For target shooting they work really well. Gp

megasupermagnum

08-02-2019, 12:54 AM

No better shotgun sight can be had than a Leupold 1-4x. Either close two eye open shooting to long 200 yard shots, it is ideal. Now a much cheaper, easier, and very effective solution is the Willams fire sights for a vent rib. They are rock solid. I've put them through the ringer, and they do not move. Front and rear fiber optic open sights are not the most precise sights, but they are a huge upgrade over nothing, and work well in any conditions rain or shine.

ncmn

08-02-2019, 07:37 AM

The pardner is drilled and tapped for a mount just not sure if its the the same as the 870. I will check into it and see what I can find.

Gray Fox

08-02-2019, 09:56 AM

I put a set of the fire sights on the rib of my wife's Stoeger 20 ga. cowboy coach gun. At 25 yards 3" slugs print 2" apart horizontally. A very lucky happening gives me a very cheap poor man's double rifle. A close in brushy bottom hog gun. GF

megasupermagnum

08-02-2019, 06:30 PM

The pardner is drilled and tapped for a mount just not sure if its the the same as the 870. I will check into it and see what I can find.

The problem with just slapping a scope on a shotgun is the sloppy barrel to receiver fit. It does the job for shot, with red dots or whatever the kids use these days. You can either shim your barrel, or go all out and pin it with a screw.

ncmn

08-04-2019, 12:22 PM

I realize the shotgun barrel to receiver fit is going to be a issue. Right now the Pardner is all I have to test with. I found Midway had the Lyman 525 on sale and had a coupon for free shipping so had to order it as well. I bought some range scrap ingots from TheCaptain and last night I casted 225 Lyman 525 slugs and they came out great. Cant say enough about how the ingots were shipped and customer service from her, will buy from her again. Also, now I have to find a load for the 525 slugs and the slug experience continues to grow.

Hogtamer

08-04-2019, 03:28 PM

Here is the load I settled on, performs very well out of rifled gun. Has been great in the field on lots of hogs out to a measured 103 yds. Should be ok from your cylinder bore but gonna pack a wallop out of your pardner.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?359321-Lyman-525-for-Boomer81

megasupermagnum

08-06-2019, 12:41 AM

The lyman sabot slug is better than the Lee as far as fit. Some claim they work in smooth bores, they tumbled for me. I've seen some very impressive groups from them in a rifled barrel.

longbow

08-06-2019, 08:05 PM

megasupermagnum

08-06-2019, 09:36 PM

turbo1889 posted that the Lyman sabot slug becomes unstable at transonic velocity when shot from smoothbore. I have not shot that slug so no personal experience. turbo talked me out of buying a Mihec double cavity mould. I am of mixed feelings about that! I didn't want to spend the money if the slug wasn't going to work for me but... many people (like Hogtamer) report good success with them and I do love the Mihec brass moulds. I think if I got one I'd prefer the bore diameter version.

I almost bought one of the NOE versions too but decided I'd pass. All in all I have to think that wadcutter style is subject to tumbling just like wadcutter boolits at longer ranges. But that is speculation on my part and if spun up in 1:36" twist they should be stable.

Longbow

They can be had from either GT bullets, or Gardiners cache. I've bought them from both, and both are quality cast slugs. They shot just fine from a rifled barrel for me, on the order of 5" or so at 100 yards. Same reason as the Lee slugs, I just kind of gave up being as the .735" balls from the same gun also shoot 5" or so at 100 yards. My thinking is a round ball is the easiest possible slug to cast, you can't mess it up. If a hollow base slug isn't more accurate than a round ball, I don't see any reason to mess with it.

Now I have seen some very impressive groups from the Lyman sabot slug that makes me think it is something worth playing with. I can't say the same for the Lee slug.

Now far removed from an apples to apples comparison, but another pellet shaped slug is the BRI slug, now loaded by Winchester. They were as accurate as can be at 100 yards, around 3" groups. I don't know at what distance, but by 200 yards they begin to tumble and take their own path. The few holes I managed to get on the board were oblong. Will the lyman slug be the same? I have never tried it to find out.

longbow

08-07-2019, 12:20 AM

Unfortunately I doubt they will ship to Canada. To export from the States requires an FFL.

I know a couple of local guys with the Lyman sabot slug mould but so far I still don't have any to try. I should just buy a mould and be done with it! Should have bought the Mihec mould. If nothing else they are beautiful to look at and use.

I just have trouble parting with money for something that might not work and that I really don't need.

My preference would be the bore diameter version from Mihec if I was buying one.

Something to think about, and some people are working with, are slugs with 3D printed attached wads/fins/sabots. The Lee slugs could be housed in a sabot that would form fit their taper and fill the bore.

The 3D printing would also work to produce sabots for a BRI type slugs or the Sauvestre slug... or clones.

megasupermagnum

08-07-2019, 01:10 AM

Really, FFL to export bullets from a place that does not sell ammunition? Well, I suppose the price of shipping would have been half the cost of the mold anyway.

What we need is a mold of the Buckbuster slug. It was so simple, I can't believe it has not been copied yet. It was just a 1 ounce hollow base slug with straight .681" sides. The cavity was filled with hot glue or similar. They fit most guns with off the shelf wads, and no fuss you had an accurate load. It's been so long now I can't properly remember, but I remember them working well from a smooth bore. They certainly worked well from a rifled barrel, and remained stable to at least 200 yards.

Now that I think of it, I am going to put it up in the group buy discussion, and see if either MP or NOE will make it. I would certainly buy one.