45/120

[Spooksar]

I just bought a Uberta Sharps in 45/120 anyone have a load using smokeless powder and a 400 grain cast bullet

[uscra112]

Y'got brass for it, too?

Might want to inquire on some other forums, too. I've got a copy of Quickload, but won't post suggestions because I know so little about how accurate it is for such large cartridges, and I have no idea how strong that rifle is. Suffice to say you're probably gonna end up using something around 4895 for a muzzle velocity in the 1400 range.

[oldred]

Hodgdon actually has data for the 45/120 on their site,

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

I think they have about a dozen loads or so for the 400 (405) gr bullet, top loads are a bit stiff at velocities up to around 2000 FPS at about 28,000 CUP which is the max pressure approved for the Uberti. These are the max loads but they have a bunch of more sane loads too at lower pressures and velocities.

[Spooksar]

Thanks, and I did find Norma brass for it

[bigted]

They ARE a wonderful moose and bear rifle.

[oldred]

Ted, Have you had any of the load development problems with the 45/120 that are sometimes mentioned? What I am asking about is that we often hear it's quite difficult to develop a good shooting load with that big case but I was wondering (if it's even true) if that's both with smokeless or real BP? I have a 45-90 with a Winchester chamber that I have been considering for a long time reaming out to 45-100 0r 45-110 but if I ever get around to doing this I have often wondered about just going all the way and doing the big 120? It seems most everyone I talk with about it tell me it's hard to develop a load for but if that's not to difficult a problem I might consider it anyway, I already have two other 45-90s and just thought that big ole' 120 would be kinda fun and different!

[17nut]

You need to cough up some hard data in order to feed Quickload!
Intended bullet, COL and barrel length.

But 21-25 grains of TrailBoss is a good start.

[dtknowles]

Why such a big case if you are shooting smokeless?

Tim

[oldred]

Why such a big case if you are shooting smokeless?

Tim

With the bigger 120 case vs the 45/70 for instance you can get better performance with some powders like H4895 for example, the 45/70 case won't even hold the 45/120 load, take H4895 and 400-405 gr bullets for instance, both from a 24" barrel.

45/120 and 64 grs of H4895, 405 gr bullet, 24" barrel -2012 FPS at 27,300 CUP

45/70 and 55 grs of H4895, 400 gr bullet, 24" barrel -1859 FPS at 26,500 CUP

Also with the right powder similar velocities at lower pressures or higher velocities at equal pressures can be done.

45/120 and 58 grs of benchmark, 405 gr bullet and 24" barrel -1917 FPS at 27,200 CUP

While the shorter 45/70 using 58.5 Benchmark and a 400 gr bullet produces a very similar 1986 FPS velocity it does so at 40,000 CUP.

The 45/70 is using a jacketed bullet while the 45/120 is using a nearly identical weight cast bullet so the jacketed bullet would account for some increase in pressure but 27,200 CUP vs 40,000 because of a jacket?


Of course the 45/70 will do about anything needing done and there is probably no "need" for the extra boost but for some folks need doesn't matter and it's all about fun, then there is the option of loading Black where the 120 can really make use of that extra space!:bigsmyl2:

[Spooksar]

Why such a big case if you are shooting smokeless?

Tim

Basically I have lots of hunting rifles and I use the old time single shots for fun. The reason for smokeless powder is that Black powder is hard to find where I live.

[varsity07840]

Basically I have lots of hunting rifles and I use the old time single shots for fun. The reason for smokeless powder is that Black powder is hard to find where I live.

You are asking for trouble shooting smokeless in a cartridge never intended for it.

[oldred]

You are asking for trouble shooting smokeless in a cartridge never intended for it.

Why? It was "never intended for it" because smokeless simply didn't exist at the time but that in no way makes it retroactively unsuitable for the big cases. Smokeless is obviously better utilized in smaller cases and smaller bores where it is much more efficient but being less efficient in larger cases does NOT translate into "asking for trouble"! A great many people use smokeless in these old rounds and the performance of them can be increased over what they were "designed" for and done so safely.

The data I listed is published data from Hodgdon and is only a small sample of what they list, obviously Hodgdon doesn't think it's "asking for trouble" and some smokeless powders are actually meant to be used in these big cases, 5744 for example, and a lot of smokeless loads listed at Hodgdon and elsewhere actually produce lower pressures than the original BP loads! For sure smokeless can be dangerous in ANY cartridge if safe and established procedures are not adhered to but that's no more a problem for the old BP cartridges than it is for modern cartridge designs. There are many reasons to want to use smokeless and the OP listed his, which is a very good reason, but there are many more. BP is fun and a whole different sport that some of use really enjoy (I certainly do!) but for a variety of reasons someone may not want to use BP and the fact that smokeless is commonly used safely by probably more shooters than use BP plus a LOT of listed and proven data available would indicate that it is in fact a safe practice. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I understand that however the facts, the published data, smokeless powder meant for doing this being manufactured and sold by reputable powder companies and the fact it has been done safely just about forever kind of negates the "asking for trouble" warning that some folks insist on.

I shoot both BP and smokeless in my BP cartridges (mostly 45-90) and have often been told I shouldn't shoot smokeless and should shoot only what it was "designed for" but just because it was "designed" before smokeless was available does not mean that smokeless wouldn't work when it did appear on the scene, did you know that even the 45-90 (according to Cartridges of the world) was factory loaded with smokeless starting in 1898 close to the time smokeless became available? How about the 45/70? It was "designed" only for BP but from the very beginning of the availability of smokeless it has been loaded with it on a scale that is orders of magnitude greater than it was ever loaded with black.

[GregLaROCHE]

I wish I had all that space when loading .45/70 with BP.

[oldred]

I wish I had all that space when loading .45/70 with BP.

Another REALLY good reason for the bigger cases! The extra space of the longer cases can be utilized to an advantage with either type of powder but especially when loading black. Obviously there is a point at which there can be too much space causing more problems than advantages and I have been told the 120 does just that, however there are also those who do like it and while it may be border-line too big it still works. I have no personal experience with the 45/120 but the 45/70 and '90 I have shot for many years works great with smokeless, the '90 has advantages over the '70 using either powder. IMHO the 45-90 would be the more popular round today had the 45/70 not have been chosen for the army resulting in so many rifles and so much ammo being available that it became the common sense choice at the time. The more I work with the '90 the more I like that case and eventually I hope to get in gear and chamber one of my rifles in one of the bigger cases, I have a 45-110 reamer and came really close to doing it a couple years ago and likely will go with that but the more I think about the 120 I just might decide to go all the way just for the fun of it and to find out for myself!

[MT Chambers]

I don't see any good using smokeless in such a large case, 45/90 maybe, but you will always be fighting with that half full case. The 45/120 would be fun to play with using BP, what it was meant for.

[Hamish]

You are asking for trouble shooting smokeless in a cartridge never intended for it.

DOUBLE FACEPALM.

(Sigh)

Black would surely be more fun to play with, but to say that smokeless is inherently dangerous?

[bikerbeans]

I had a 32" H&R Buffalo Classic that i reamed to 45-120. I only shot smokeless powder and i did try some of the Hodgdon loads. I found H4895 to be extremely position sensitive and i had ES of over 200 fps. I found i3031, i4320 and i4350 to work well without fillers. I don't have access to my load data and it would be too hot for your Uberta.

BB

[MT Chambers]

DOUBLE FACEPALM.

(Sigh)

Black would surely be more fun to play with, but to say that smokeless is inherently dangerous?

Yes I believe that in some instances, using certain smokeless powders, detonation can occur, and these older designs could send metal into your face, you just don't want large cases 1/3 full of some powders.

[straphanger]

I got a 45 3 1/4 Shiloh Sharps in 1982. Started out shooting shooting duplex loads w 105 gr 2f black and 10 gr of 4227, wads, grease etc behind 500 gr 457125. Even in a 14 lb rifle it is an experience. Today when I shoot it, I use 39 grains of Accurate 5744 w 457125. My recollection is that gives a velocity somewhere around 1600 fps. My local range is only 100 yds and I am shooting off the bench. It does kick a bit! In the old days I shot w X sticks from a kneeling position which is a better deal! Unless someone is really in to abuse, or you are stalking Cape Buffalo, I don't understand why anyone would want or need more velocity from a 500 gr bullet!

Actually, I was thinking about trying some of the 45-90 cast loads from the old Lyman handbooks such as 26 gr 2400 or 15 gr Unique to drop velocity back around 1300. As for the size of the case, don't see the issue w fast powders. I shoot Bullseye, Red Dot and W231 in a .45 Colt case designed for black. Works fine.

If someone on the forum has experience w "reduced" loads in a modern 45 120, I would appreciate the input. Similarly, if anyone has experience with taking 5744 below the published starting loads. At the moment all my cases are loaded, so it will be a while before I will be reloading again. My annual Sharps outing won't be for a few weeks yet.

[oldred]

Yes I believe that in some instances, using certain smokeless powders, detonation can occur, and these older designs could send metal into your face, you just don't want large cases 1/3 full of some powders.

Just as with ANY cartridge the 45-120 requires an appropriate powder, a lot of the suggested loads/powders provide a lot more fill than 1/3 of the case! Besides smokeless in these big cases is commonly done and there doesn't seem to be a rash of exploding rifle incidents, at least not with modern built rifles.

An old original BP rifle of questionable metallurgy or even a modern built firearm of an original weaker design probably should stay with BP even if low pressure smokeless data is to be used. My reasoning for this, and I am sure other opinions are out there, is that while a proper smokeless load would be at or even below BP pressures and thus should be safe there simply is little to no safety margin and thus no room for error with older original BP metals/designs. While double charging would be dangerous in any rifle even minor errors could be dangerous with a firearm that has minimal strength and little or no safety margin due to poor quality primitive steels and/or weak design. However this all has to do with the firearm itself and not the cartridge, in new replica rifles made of modern stronger steels or even proven design original rifles smokeless should be just fine as long as proper attention to loading is taken, this however is true regardless of new or old gun or caliber!

[oger]

I load a 538 gr Hoch with 5744 for a friend with a shiloh heavy barrel. It works really well and is super accurate.

[bigted]

To be sure the 45-120 is a cartridge that will and can get your attention.

My first 120 was a reamed Browning '85' from 45-70. This 28 inch wispy barrel was a treat to carry in the brush in Alaska. Very handy and aww inspiring when yanking the trigger. This rifle was my introduction to the 120 3.250 inch case and chamber. The bead front sight matched perfect with the Marbles full buckhorn with the little blade in the bottom removed and sighted to be a barrel mounted large peep. Finger banging hummer on the trigger hand second finger.

Next was my Shiloh Sharps by Bryant that had the heavy 34 inch Hartford configuration seemed to be a bit better in the recoil dept.

Accuracy was only necessary to 100 to 150 yards for me but I did shoot her at 300 on occasion. My sighting was with the barrel sights provided as I really just wanted a hunting rifle.

IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 were good powder in my rifles. As stated above ... very small amount of pressure in the huge case, and by 3 inch up the barrel ... this pressure bled off even more. Communication with the Shiloh folks indicated the ability of their rifles to withstand anything a Ruger #1 would withstand ... now having said this, MY shoulder gives out WAY before this amount of pressure is attained.

My favorite load was 7 grains IMR 4227 under 110 grains of GOEX 2Fg powder under a LEE 459405 hollow base boolit greased with SPG. No wads nor lube cookie. This is a heavy load and if you want a more penetrating load ... replace the Lee boolit with the #458125 Lyman boolit of 530 grains or so and the same powders and grainage.

The duplex BP load is clean burning and leaves no residue in fouling that straight BP gives. Gotta be careful of who ya tell about this load as purist BPCR folks will be on ya like flies on a pile. LOL! I had plenty of grief from some corners here but didnt shake my resolve to have a vintage style gun AND load powerful enough to take irritated Grizzleys with ease. That and using the Lyman #2 lead mix that gives proper expansion on critters.

Go get em my friend. I just traded my last 120 off for a more tolerable chamber in a Rolling block which I prefer for anything less rambunctious then a irritated moose or grizz.

Still have my #1 in 45-70 for when I desire horsepower in a lite package.

[Hamish]

Yes I believe that in some instances, using certain smokeless powders, detonation can occur, and these older designs could send metal into your face, you just don't want large cases 1/3 full of some powders.

That was exactly my point. Your initial post stated that using smokeless in any form or fashion would be to court disaster. Your quote above more correctly frames the circumstance that using it in certain ways presents the possibility of a problem. There are many ways to use smokeless correctly and safely in this cartridge, it's just that it behooves the shooter to learn how to do it safely.

MT, I do not say this to diss you, I believe that what we say on the open internet needs to be as accurate as we can make to begin to overwrite all the stupid stuff that comes up in search or passed verbally.

Absolutely nothing wrong with raising the issue that it can't be done willy-nilly, but I thought important to say that it is not, in itself, inherently dangerous to do.

[oldred]

There are many ways to use smokeless correctly and safely in this cartridge, it's just that it behooves the shooter to learn how to do it safely.


Exactly, and using published loads from places like Hodgdon is a good place to find the proper powders! These big cases are really no different than any other case in that respect, for instance how about using Bullseye in something like a Win 300 mag? I think it would be a dangerous proposition to do that and so we look for a more appropriate powder. Also we keep seeing "almost empty case" and other similar comments but these mostly come from people who have never loaded one of these cases, I have heard this type comment repeatedly while being warned it's "dangerous" to have a small amount of that smokeless powder in that big almost empty 45-90 case. Almost empty? Actually depending on the powder used it's almost FULL to the base of the bullet instead of empty! Same with the 45/120 it would seem by comparing the case fill of my '90 with certain powders to the heavier charge (to achieve similar pressures in the longer case) and the case length of the '120. While the load would not fill the same percentage of that bigger case it certainly is a long way from "almost empty" and is well above 1/2 full never mind being all the way down to the 1/3 full we seem to hear so often.

[sharps4590]

Reduced loads are dangerous
Fillers are dangerous
Using anything other than published data is dangerous, (as if all published data is safe in all rifles)
A safe load cannot be extrapolated
All cast bullets lead your barrel


All those statements are true....if each activity is done incorrectly. So is driving a vehicle if done unsafely, running power tools, ad infinitum. It is incumbent upon each of us to learn HOW to do things safely. Blanket statements outright condemning OR outright declaring something safe are usually wrong. Seems it's always in the "how" something is done.

[oldred]

Seems it's always in the "how" something is done.

That about sums it up perfectly!

[bigted]

All I can tell ya is that the 45-120 acts like the hammer of Thor! Even tho it never saw the herds ... if it had, it would have been an absolute hammer. Was built for long range target shooting but several deer, elk and moose that I know of have fallen to this cigar like cartridge ... in others hands albeit. I never took an animal with either of mine, but felt confident in bear country with either in the crook of my arm.

What I always felt good about is the reduced pressure with this cartridge. It can rip your arm off and do so in complete safety ... ha ... chew that for awhile!

[GregLaROCHE]

So why did they choose .45/110 for the Quigley Down Under movie and not .45/120? Was it a much more popular cartridge back then? Were .45/120s available at that time period?

[Spooksar]

So most of the loads in Hodgens data run 23,000-25000 with velocity around 1600-1700fps. Except Trail Boss which is 18,000 with velocity of 1120fps. I have lots of Trailboss, IMR 4064, IMR 3031 and IMR 4895, so I’ll start there.

[indian joe]

To be sure the 45-120 is a cartridge that will and can get your attention.

My first 120 was a reamed Browning '85' from 45-70. This 28 inch wispy barrel was a treat to carry in the brush in Alaska. Very handy and aww inspiring when yanking the trigger. This rifle was my introduction to the 120 3.250 inch case and chamber. The bead front sight matched perfect with the Marbles full buckhorn with the little blade in the bottom removed and sighted to be a barrel mounted large peep. Finger banging hummer on the trigger hand second finger.

Next was my Shiloh Sharps by Bryant that had the heavy 34 inch Hartford configuration seemed to be a bit better in the recoil dept.

Accuracy was only necessary to 100 to 150 yards for me but I did shoot her at 300 on occasion. My sighting was with the barrel sights provided as I really just wanted a hunting rifle.

IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 were good powder in my rifles. As stated above ... very small amount of pressure in the huge case, and by 3 inch up the barrel ... this pressure bled off even more. Communication with the Shiloh folks indicated the ability of their rifles to withstand anything a Ruger #1 would withstand ... now having said this, MY shoulder gives out WAY before this amount of pressure is attained.

My favorite load was 7 grains IMR 4227 under 110 grains of GOEX 2Fg powder under a LEE 459405 hollow base boolit greased with SPG. No wads nor lube cookie. This is a heavy load and if you want a more penetrating load ... replace the Lee boolit with the #458125 Lyman boolit of 530 grains or so and the same powders and grainage.

The duplex BP load is clean burning and leaves no residue in fouling that straight BP gives. Gotta be careful of who ya tell about this load as purist BPCR folks will be on ya like flies on a pile. LOL! I had plenty of grief from some corners here but didnt shake my resolve to have a vintage style gun AND load powerful enough to take irritated Grizzleys with ease. That and using the Lyman #2 lead mix that gives proper expansion on critters.

Go get em my friend. I just traded my last 120 off for a more tolerable chamber in a Rolling block which I prefer for anything less rambunctious then a irritated moose or grizz.

Still have my #1 in 45-70 for when I desire horsepower in a lite package.

I never owned a 120 but have shot enough duplex in smaller rounds to "get it" what a smart load bigted was using - difficult to figure what all the negativity is about concerning duplex - t'would have to be way less problematic than most smokeless loads for these big cases

[MT Chambers]

So why did they choose .45/110 for the Quigley Down Under movie and not .45/120? Was it a much more popular cartridge back then? Were .45/120s available at that time period?

The 45/110 came out early, say 1871, the 45/120 didn't come out until the bufs. were gone, more than 10 years later, same with all the 3 1/4" case sharps ctgs.

[oldred]

The 45/110 came out early, say 1871, the 45/120 didn't come out until the bufs. were gone, more than 10 years later, same with all the 3 1/4" case sharps ctgs.

I seem to remember reading something about the 45-120, or maybe it was the 50-140 (possibly both? maybe neither?) came about after Sharps was no longer in business? Something about one or both maybe coming about as custom chamberings that Sharps never offered as regular production rifles????

[bigted]

I seem to remember reading something about the 45-120, or maybe it was the 50-140 (possibly both? maybe neither?) came about after Sharps was no longer in business? Something about one or both maybe coming about as custom chamberings that Sharps never offered as regular production rifles????

Yes I have read the same! If memory serves, the Winchester 1885 HiWall rifle was the first to chamber for the 120 chamber and this to compete in long range shooting.

I have also read that the Sharps company had stopped building rifles when this giant came about.

It is hard to believe that the 110 case could be improved upon till we remember that with Black Powder, only way to increase velocity and range ... is to add more powder ... to add more powder, need more case length.

Another thought is that on occasion, the 45-110 case was referred to as 45-120 even tho the 110 case stayed the same. Putting more powder in the 110 case is just a matter of more compression. I have loaded 135 grains of 2F GOEX in the 3.250 case and that aint no picknic shooting a 530 grain boolit. Very authoritative to say the least.

This is a young mans cartridge. Have fun with it and smile as you realize that you are building memories that will last a lifetime.

[dtknowles]

Basically I have lots of hunting rifles and I use the old time single shots for fun. The reason for smokeless powder is that Black powder is hard to find where I live.

Seems to be a reasonable answer. I don't have a 45-120 but I do have a 450 Black Powder Express. Mine is a 150 year old double rifle and dropping those huge cases into the breach is so cool. I have been tempted to try some smokeless loads but wisdom says don't be cheap or lazy. Shoot what it was meant to shoot. A modern rifle I might shoot smokeless but I don't think I want to shoot a full house 45 elephant load. 458 Win needs a heavy rifle and 460 Weatherby even more. The Black Powder Loads are easily tolerated. I shoot pretty much the same thing from Muzzle loaders.

Tim

[oldred]

If I decide to go with big 3.250" case it is going to be in my first highwall type rifle that weighs just under 15 lbs with a 32" heavy barrel, that should tame the recoil to the point that even at my age I should have fun with it.

[john.k]

Actually 45x3 1/4 is the original Martini Henry case,and was used in all the NSW issue Henry rifles 1871 -1883...........introduced 1869 ish,well predates any Sharps in a big case.And a common british express cartridge from the 1870s onward up to 450x3 1/4 Nitro -express.

[Don Purcell]

Something that would really get your attention would be the load that was tried once for the American long range team using Sharps Borchardt rifles in England. 45 cal. 2 7/8 case with 125 grains powder topped with a 650 grain paper patched slug. Long range Credmoor target rifles at the time were limited to no more than 10 pounds weight. Ouch! The results did not turn out well evidently.

[oldred]

45 cal. 2 7/8 case with 125 grains powder topped with a 650 grain paper patched slug.

How did they fit 125 grs of powder in a 2 7/8" case? Breech seated bullet maybe?

[bigted]

How did they fit 125 grs of powder in a 2 7/8" case? Breech seated bullet maybe?

Compression my friend ... compression

[smithnframe]

Go with the "Holy Black" if you want the best accuracy!

[oldred]

Go with the "Holy Black" if you want the best accuracy!

Can't say that I would disagree with that at all, Black sure works for me! However the OP doesn't have that as a practical option considering his location he told us real Black was simply too difficult to obtain so apparently he doesn't have that choice. I think that "probably" (or maybe not?) that the substitute black is probably available but what's the point in using that silly stuff? It's not BP anymore than smokeless is and is just another type of shooting altogether, since it doesn't look, load, shoot or even smell like real BP a person might just as well load smokeless and avoid the hassles associated with that substitute stuff and apparently that's what the OP is doing. IMHO he's making the right choice.