Full magazine or Half magazine

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Comparing posts (with photos) of levers available here in Australia, with numerous rifles in USA, it seems the early settlers favoured half magazine rifles here against full magazine rifles commonly avail able in US.

Today, full magazine rifles would outnumber half magazine by 1:4. Perhaps we didn't have Indians surrounding wagon trains?

I have quite a number of 1/2 magazine rifles but only 2 with full.

https://i.imgur.com/5cXpWqf.jpg

[square butte]

I have always liked the half magazine levers. I have one like yours in 25-20 - But in general they are harder to come by in the US. Been looking for one in 32-20 for years but still have not found one. Appreciate the photos

[veeman]

Never owned a half mag, never cared for the look of them. They just look, incomplete.

[Kev18]

I have a half mag/ button mag 1886 also. They are really rare and few were made compared to the full mag tubes. I have the winchester book and they say the specific number of each model made.

[glaciers]

Hey, Bad *** Wallace, nice carbines. Got the ladder sites also. Only have one button mag at this time and have only owned maybe 5 or 6 total. Can't quite read the box but those look like 38-40's.
A picture you posted here, on another thread of some of your Martini's, you listed 2 - 300 Sherwoods. I had one made up by Wesley Richards if memory servers. Sweet little takedown rifle. If you don't mind what make were yours?

[Bazoo]

The reason half mag guns were not as popular back in the day is simple. Folks lived and died by their guns, and the more ammo they could have in gun the better their odds. You might run into hostile folks, Indians or bushwhackers, or a grizzly, montain lion, or moose that needs persuading.

And don't forget that not everyone was a crack shot, but everyone had to feed themselves. While the common opinion is that you'll only get one shot at game, that's hogwash. It's not uncommon to get repeated shots at a single animal or group of animals, and when it means going hungry, you take whatever shots you have.

[bob208]

one other advantage of a full mag. is if you and the extra ammo get separated ou have more in the gun. could ther have been a restriction on mag. capacity for import?
I have two button mag. carbines a 94 in .38-55 and a 92 in .44-40. rifles are more common with button mags.
now here is a rare duck a 94 rifle with a 2/3 mag. I have one with said mag. full octagon barrel pistol grip stock with the I type checkering. it is .32 Winchester special.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Can't quite read the box but those look like 38-40's.

You are correct 38/40's: a pair of consequetive 4 digit serial numbered carbines made in 1892 for the prison service - rare as rocking horse poo!

[Drm50]

I have a 25/20 & 32/20 m53 Wins that have the button magazines. When I got the 25/20 I kinda wanted to trade it for a 92 full mag in 25/20. After I loaded for it, it grew on me and I tracked down a 32/20. Both have a little external wear on wood but metal is high condition and they bough have bores like a new dime. I also have turn of century Marlin 94s in 25/20 & 32/20, both rifle versions tapered octagon barrel with full mags. Bores are dark but both excellent shooters. I look at a lot of old levers and the smaller the bore the fewer that have good bores. A couple years ago I bid on a 1886 45/70 half mag carbine. I bid on nothing waiting for it. My total nut was $6500 and I was willing to blow it all. Gun was NIB with hang tags. Needless to say it went for about three times that.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Those are really nice, and rare, Mr. Wallace. If you were able to sell them over here you'd probably glean enough money to sit by the swimming pool and drink Foster's Lager for a couple of years. As for full vs. half magazines, I can only speculate that in the historical hey-day of lever actions, perhaps 1866 - 1900, the western frontier was in full swing at the beginning and then slowly in decline, and it was an advantage to have as many rounds available as practical. Half mags have always been looked at here as sporting rifles. Not offered new very often, and during my lifetime when they were, they always cost a bit more than the standard full magazine models. I would say that the one exception to that would be the Savage '99s, but they're a bit different in design. Also, we had a Winchester 88 and Browning BLR long after the close of the Old West, and both were marketed as sporting rifles. Another interesting exception would be the Winchester 1895 with a built in magazine for pointed cartridges, but that's the only one I can think of during the bad old days.

DG

[ulav8r]

Have never handled a button mag, but got to hunt with my uncle's Mod. 92 that had a blind magazine. Had about a 20 inch half octagon barrel and a rifle style buttplate. In 32-20 it held, I seem to remember, 3 rounds in the magazine. I think he bought it used in the very early Thirties. It has been 50 years, so the capacity and age are not certain.

[Texas by God]

I've converted a couple of 94s to 1/2 mag and they are handy. Of course the factory version is more desirable!

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[Shawlerbrook]

I like them all.

[indian joe]

Never owned a half mag, never cared for the look of them. They just look, incomplete.

I agree 100% ---- they look like something fell off

Hoowever the redeeming feature is the half mag guns are way less prone to vertical stringing on the target

still dont like the look of em tho:bigsmyl2:

[missionary5155]

It is all a matter of what each individual likes and needs.
But personally I have never had to pop a corn cruncher with more than one cast slug.
If you need 10 for popping steel you might want 10 in an extra long tube.
Mike in Peru

[bikerbeans]

I have both full and half mags and all i care about is that they are accurate enough for my purposes.

BB

[smkummer]

Like them all. I need a full mag. for cowboy action. Love my 2/3 mag. on my 35 marlin waffle top. I think on a hunting rifle, the 2/3 mag. get less banging around when going through brush or in and out of a truck.

[TheGrimReaper]

I don't have any half mags.....but I think they look really classy!

[Bazoo]

I don't like the look of half mags, but that aside, I prefer to have more bullets in the gun for all situations.

[Dan Cash]

If you enjoy the half magazine guns, only load 3 or 4 cartridges in the magazine you have. Personally, since I use a rifle for the same purposes as my great grandfather, I want a full length magazine and the longer the better.

[TNsailorman]

For some reason that half magazine Winchester rifle in Paul Newman's movie "Hombre" tripped my trigger and I have wanted a half magazine in a large caliber since I saw it. One day I will have one--maybe. james

[Maine1]

I like full mags, for the capacity and handling. loading many shots without having to fool with spare mags is sometimes just the ticket.

[Bigslug]

In the American West it truly was a matter of defense of self and close associates - well into the 1900's in certain places.

By modern, use-of-AR-15 techniques, Nelson King's loading gate on the right side of the gun is ergonomically wrong. On the left side a right hander could stuff rounds in with the left hand while still keeping the gun in his shoulder with the right. My point being is that Winchesters are fast to empty, but slow to load, and a "frank exchange of ideas" between was a common enough occurrence that capacity would have been a major selling point.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Bigslug;4705526]In the American West it truly was a matter of defense of self and close associates - well into the 1900's in certain places.

By modern, use-of-AR-15 techniques, Nelson King's loading gate on the right side of the gun is ergonomically wrong. On the left side a right hander could stuff rounds in with the left hand while still keeping the gun in his shoulder with the right.

I would enjoy watching that with a ten pound 76 or 86 long barrel and all

[ATCDoktor]

I am one of those that appreciates the Button/Half and 2/3rds magazines and have a few rifles that are configured so.

Model 1894 in 30 WCF that dates from 1899:
https://i.postimg.cc/13Kyj7Rf/IMG_1576.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Model 64A in 30WCF dates from early 1970’s:
https://i.postimg.cc/g0KQ9dWJ/D2676CA9-3AB1-4D29-B726-95CE141CBC99.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Uberti repro Model 1876 in 50/95 WCF:
https://i.postimg.cc/HnsQQT4h/5942B3AA-B982-4BD1-83EC-A2DAB67B6BF8.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Model 92 in 25/20 dates from 1909:
https://i.postimg.cc/YStW2f24/62409AE7-0F21-478C-A43C-5374A54B87CE.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[KCSO]

I was taught to carry 3 or 4 in the magazine and a few in the pocket if needed. Since we don't have any bad guys to fight off any more a full magazine isn't really necessary. Even in my car gun when I carried a 357 Rossi to match my 357 revolver I only had 5 in the magazine unless I knew I was going into trouble. I never had to point the rifle at a bad guy but did finish off deer, cattle, dogs and coons. I had to carry an AR in the last few years on patrol but never liked it as much as the old lever gun.

[Sig556r]

Never owned a half mag, never cared for the look of them. They just look, incomplete.

Hard to disagree with that...

[MI2600]

I recently bought a '92 carbine that had been shortened for whatever reason. I thought of returning it to its original state, but a new tube or even a used one would look too different from the rest of the rifle. To me it doesn't look correct, but I can live with it.

[JimB..]

Was the typical Australian of the time less in need of food or protection than the typical American? I wouldn’t think so.

[Bazoo]

Kinda like an ar15 with a 5 round magazine, don't look right, don't make no sense.

ATC, that first rifle, winchester 94, is a nice piece of eye candy.

[curioushooter]

My observation is that it mostly follows logic.

Most people just plink with 22s so might as well as make that tube as long as possible. My 24" Marlin 39A holds 19 rounds. Love it when I am just casually nailing the bull/can/golfball over and over again while guys with there semis and bolties are reloading their stupid box mags. And when going for squirrel, all I need is that loaded mag. No loose ammo or mags to lose.

Every 32-20 Marlin 1894 I've seen has been a half mag. I surmise this is because they have long barrels (usually 24") to maximize velocity for that small game round. The long tube would not only add considerable weight and effect balance adversely for most people, it would be unnecessary for that kind of animal. And such a rifle isn't really a great defense platform.

With the shorter barreled pistol caliber carbines and even with 30-30s, 35Rem, 38-55, 375, 444, 45-70 big game rifles, the extra ammo in the tube isn't really going to impact balance or weight comparatively, and many users of such arms are probably going to appreciate the capacity, particularly the ones concerned with defense.

I personally appreciate that everything be optimal for the design, so I like full length mag tubes.

[MI2600]

In another thread, I mentioned I had .92 with a shorter tube. At first, I looked for a longer/original 19 1/4" tube. The end of the barrel has the groove and small hole for the bottom screw so putting an original style tube on would be easy. But then, I decided that a replacement tube would not match the rest of rifle. So, I had to make a choice between a goofy (to me) short tube or a goofy looking long tube. I decided leaving the short tube was cheaper than replacing it.

The logic of a short tube still escapes me.

[LawrenceA]

Maybe "Curious Shooter" has it.
Most lever guns in OZ are in 32-20 next 25-20 and then 44-40. Bigger calibres do not really appear very often at all.
They are generally full rifles and almost always half mag. The carbines you see are far fewer but full mag.
So perhaps it is a matter of opting for a longer sight radius over larger mag capacity for whatever reason.
The other reason may be that the pioneers here were rougher on there gear so the full tube was prone to damage or breakage.
Or the added expense of the full tube was just unnecessary. Most civilian bolt rifles, until recently, were 5 shots. (if it ain't dead in 5-:?6 shots then it's gone).
Having said that I have 9 levers & pumps with tubes and except for the Marlin 39A they are half or 3/4. Including a Remington 12, Marlin 27S, a new 336 XLR and an 1895.
Why do Marlin put a 3/4 on the XLR and 1895?

[curioushooter]

The XLRs have long barrels...like I said before, the longer the barrel the more adversely the tube will affect balance.

Personally I rarely top off my magazines. In fact, the way many mag springs are these days (excessively strong) you can hardly get the full load in there.

Another thing to consider. My experiments with Marlin 1894s have led me to conclude that the mag tube can only adversely impact accuracy. Perhaps the thinking was that a shorter tube would be less bad than a long one and on the cartridges where accuracy was at a premium (32-20, 25-20) it made sense to chop the tube just in front of the forend.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Bazoo
Yep agreed our forefathers knew running out of ammo when you needed it the most usually meant you died an gave your guns to those that killed you. When the 10 shot lever gun came to be most bad folk were very careful not to mess with the man with one! Now I currently own a half mag 1886 in 45-70. My only half mag lever. And no I have no problem with it being a half mag. Crap if 6 rounds of 45-70 can't get it done I'm in big trouble !

[reivertom]

In 'Merica, more is always better! Especially when surrounded by Apaches. There were more than a couple large critters that can put a hurt on a fellow, too.

[indian joe]

some random (very) thoughts on magazines

first off I dont like the look of shorties near as much as the full magazine

secondly I have spent 30 odd weeks over four visits hanging out with rural folk in the US and considerable fun was had plinking with a variety of guns including a 500 S&W

now ... I reckon the average aussie is way more inclined to make his shots count than his northern cousin who in turn seems to really enjoy blazing away ...could be that the cost of ammo plays a part in this - aussies pretty much pay double for guns, ammo, gas

another ... my experience with lever guns is that the short magazine guns are less likely to have an accuracy problem as they warm up under fire - dont walk up the target

they were probably cheaper to purchase.

those old guns were used hard in our country particularly in the north - no safe queens in queensland

a good percentage of the 44/40 full magazine guns started life as guard guns in prisons

lastly .. the main danger in our landscape is little things that bite you - not big critters that eat you - deadly poison snakes and spiders - instead of bears and moose - we never had the need of heavy calibre rifles to gather food or keep us safe - a 32/20 over most of our landmass was entirely adequate at the time -- that said an encounter with an angry taipan in queenslands grasslands is at least as big a threat to your life as a cranky grizzly in the rockies.

reivertom gets the last word "In 'Merica, more is always better!" .....its a national characteristic - an american farmer will brag of a hundred bushel wheat crop - his aussie mate will drawl "yeah we got three ton" .....big number versus little number to say the same thing - (actually the aussie wins that one)

[Texas by God]

I just believe they were the lightweight option of the day back then. Hunters seeking to lighten their load could buy a half magazine gun since few rounds were needed for hunting.

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[FLINTNFIRE]

I to liked the look of the half magazine in HOMBRE