AR question

[dubber123]

I've never really been into AR's, but thought a short 300 BO with a brace would make a dandy "car" gun. My understanding is it is illegal to install a vertical forward grip, (didn't intend to anyways), but it is ok to install a folding stock adapter. I would really like to be sure on the folding stock before spending the money and getting myself in hot water in the process.

Thanks for any replies.

[sureYnot]

You may or may not get the correct advice here. Best thing is to check with big brother and local authorities.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[lefty o]

best to consult with the atfe, as supposedly they just made more changes to the rules for this.

[tomme boy]

OAL with a folder is now measured with the stock folded. OAL is also measured with the brace removed on a fixed extension to the muzzle with the break or whatever is attached to the muzzle removed. If you have welded or pinned break then it is to the end of such device.

NEVER ask any LEO. They never know what they are talking about. Heck most might try to arrest you for having a SBR if you showed them a AR pistol. They are idiots. And they just want to hang a charge on someone to make themselves feel good.

There are lots of sites that have the new letters from the ATF about the length change. It mainly has to do with a folding brace.

[gnostic]

best to consult with the atfe, as supposedly they just made more changes to the rules for this.

Do it from a pay phone....

[RP]

I have the ATF PDF saved on my phone so if I am stopped by LEO I have something to show them its a pistol not a SBR if they even notice the short barrel.
As far as the folding stock I do not have a clue you could say it will not fire folded so it only counts when its not folded but that makes sense and we know that and government dont go together.

[tomme boy]

They will fire but not cycle when folded. The folding adapters and people putting a foregrip on these PISTOLS is the reason for the new letter. That and every Tom Dick and Hairy that keeps calling and writing letters to the ATF. Regulations get changed all the time because of this. It's what happened here.

[dubber123]

Well, hmmm. I've read the letter and watched a video or two attempting to explain it, and it was about as clear as most ATF rulings to me. Is there even an OAL for pistols, or just these AR/AK types? Pretty sure my LCP misses the 26" limit.. I haven't bought the folding adapter yet, hopefully I can get it through my head one way or another before I do. Thanks for the replies so far guys.

[Sig556r]

Well, hmmm. I've read the letter and watched a video or two attempting to explain it, and it was about as clear as most ATF rulings to me. Is there even an OAL for pistols, or just these AR/AK types? Pretty sure my LCP misses the 26" limit.. I haven't bought the folding adapter yet, hopefully I can get it through my head one way or another before I do. Thanks for the replies so far guys.

Been thinking of a foregrip for my LCP as well...

[tomme boy]

Still under 26". ATF thinks as long as it is under 26" it is concealable. So it is a pistol. I don't remember what the LOP is. But that also comes into play.

[lefty o]

Do it from a pay phone....

havent seen one in 20 years. LOL

[Mica_Hiebert]

Look into the telescoping braces they are mp5 ste and you can still shoot with them collapsed. Ive really been thinking about an ar "pistol" with brace but intuition tells me they will go the way of the bump stocks.

[popper]

300AAC pistol is just FUN. Doesn't require the brace.

[root]

Pay 200 and buy a stamp?

https://thumb.ibb.co/cwsxgR/20161122-114058-zpsosr80jdi.jpg (https://ibb.co/cwsxgR)

Then another for a can....

Then do what you want like I did.

8 inch SBR 300 BLKOUT with SWR OCTANE 9HD

I also have a 30 cal can but the SWR is 300 rated and 3 inches shorter.
With the can it's just over 14 inches on the barrel.

Who ever thought stamp collecting could be so FUN!

Rich

[Lloyd Smale]

vertical grips are a no no but angled grips are fine. As to a folding brace. Its my understanding from our sherrif who called the batf and asked that a guns oal is with the stock unfolded and measured to the end of the buffer tube. Folding a stock that makes it not operational is the same as if you had a take down that the barrel came off. There going to measure it with the barrel on. Nothing illegal about the federally though as long as your gun otherwise is legal. We have it worse here in MI. Our law states that anything over 26 inch oal cant be a pistol. So your gun with a 12 inch barrel meets the federal standards but is illegal in mi because its to long. Michigan too measures from the end of the barrel (not counting removable flash suppressors to the end of your buffer tube IF your brace is removable. Folding stocks are allowed but the measurements are with them unfolded.

[tomme boy]

Not anymore Lloyd. They are measured with the stock folded. It is a new ruling and why everyone is throwing a fit.

[Lloyd Smale]

can you show me a batf statement with that ruling. Way I understand it is if the gun is operationalble and shootable folded its measure that way. If it has to be unfolded to function like it was designed then it must be measured like that.

[tomme boy]

Does not have to function. Only shoot. If it can still fire a round it has to be measured folded. Go over to AR15.com. They have the letters on there. One company last year was raided and shut down because they were selling PISTOLS with a forward grip.

I'm not going to do the research for anyone. So look it up yourself.

[dubber123]

I guess what confuses me is if it is sold as a PISTOL, what the 26" OAL has to do with it, as practically all pistols are already shorter than that. I can see if the folding adapter makes a RIFLE shorter than the 26" where they would have a problem with it, but I am not dealing with a rifle.

[Lloyd Smale]

In Michigan anyway its the dnr that caused the crap. If you have a ccw you can carry a loaded pistol in your truck even in deer season and your deer rifle needs to be unloaded and in a case. By letting you call a gun over 26 inch long a handgun, one that cant be practicaly consealed and in fact makes a great package for shooting deer that doesn't need to be unloaded and cased. So there reasoning is a handgun should be consealable or its not a handgun. Total bs because it would be pretty tough to conceal my 8.5 in ar pistols or even y 7 inch ar pistol. So that is where Michigan comes up with that 26 inch rule. A few years ago it was 30 inch and the dnr bitched enough that they changed it. Theres a bill in the mi house right now that would end all of this silliness. Would even eliminate the need to get a permit to conceal.

[Lloyd Smale]

Well you should keep in mind you could get someone in trouble by posting its ok. I looked everywhere, even on the ar15 fourm and NOBODY has a letter from the batf saying that. Just a bunch of wanabe experts with opinions. Opinions that could easily get you room and board at the fed pen. The latest batf rulling on folding stocks wasn't even about handguns it was about full sized guns. It was made so that if you had a shotgun with an 18 inch barrel and added a folding stock it would be no longer legal because a full sized gun is measure with the STOCK (no mention of arm brace) folded. It would then have to be registered by the batf and a 5 dollar stamp paid. Same with a full sized rifle. It makes them "non guns" and they have to be registered as other. You either have to buy them and register them at that time or apply for a stamp and get it before you install the folder. Pistols? About everywhere I see opionions (again for what there worth) says its measured by the batf at its longest mode. If it has a 4 position stock it measured all the way out. If your at the range with a flash suppressor on it that's the way they measure it. Again theres no letter saying that. the batf isn't going to write one either. It gives them latitude in who they arrest and who they don't. Just went though it with registering a ar handgun in Mi. Nobody knew what need to be done. Not the dealer or the sherrifs dept. So the sherrif, dealer and I got together on the phone with the dealers batf contact. He asked him and what he said was the batf basically could care less. That is unless your a school shooter or a bank robber. He said that's where the "other" thing came from. It was a way for the batf to sidestep making rules. He said register a ar lower as other and they don't care what you do with it. Again they don't care until they want to care. He said if they make more restrictive laws the gun owners would go nuts and have them in court. If they made less restrictive rules the liberal democrats would have them in court. He told us we were nuts if we thought hed give us an answer he had to stand behind. So if you have access to a letter that is specifically aimed at folding stocks on handguns on batf header paper that says in plain words an ar handgun with a folding stock is measured folded id sure like to see it. I spent an hour searching and sure didn't find that letter.
Does not have to function. Only shoot. If it can still fire a round it has to be measured folded. Go over to AR15.com. They have the letters on there. One company last year was raided and shut down because they were selling PISTOLS with a forward grip.

I'm not going to do the research for anyone. So look it up yourself.

[6bg6ga]

Don't go by anything except what has been spelled out in writing by the ATF. Forget about what all the forum experts and wanabes have to say. Call the ATF personally and have them send a letter to the fact. Keep the letter with you so your position can be defended if needed.

[Dieselhorses]

I'm so glad I live in Louisiana (for a few reasons anyway). I can carry 1 or 20 guns "anywhere" in my vehicle, loaded or not, ANYWHERE in Louisiana as my car "is an extension of my home" notwithstanding the federal reg's concerning the anatomy of hybrid pistol/rifles that ATF broke down to a science.

[frkelly74]

You know, I just had a thought ( didn't hurt much) , The reason for all the vague answers might just be for a purpose. If you let a problem fester by doing nothing, and gun ownership is viewed as a problem by certain people, and things happen and people get hurt and killed as is happening every day lately, pretty soon there will be a backlash and the demand to just solve the problem like they did in New Zealand. To quote Hillary Clinton, " Turn them all in, Mr and Mrs America" delivered to a tumultous cheers . I believe that the rules are vague , non committal and shifting just to let things get bad enough to cause a confiscation reaction.

[Lloyd Smale]

that's exactly what we did. the sheriff my dealer and I had a conference call with a batf employee. We tripped him up on one question and he made a phone call on another line to his supervisor and got that answer for us too. They were actually really nice to deal with. I know its not nessisary but I laminate the registration cards for my ar pistols to prove they are handguns and keep a laminated batf letter for each brand of brace I use and keep them all in the cases I use for those guns.
Don't go by anything except what has been spelled out in writing by the ATF. Forget about what all the forum experts and wanabes have to say. Call the ATF personally and have them send a letter to the fact. Keep the letter with you so your position can be defended if needed.

[6bg6ga]

I'm glad you got a good answer from the BATF. As you very well know it pays to go that little extra and get that letter instead of trying to rely on internet experts. While being well meaning a lot of them simply don't know.

[tomme boy]

https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/ATF-folded-brace_Redacted.pdf

took a whole 5 min to find the letter. Your welcome. Better keep all that info you they gave you and have your lawyer on speed dial if you ever get caught doing something.

[Handloader109]

Just get a 300bo pistol and wrap the buffer tube if you want. Not necessary, no stock is necessary with the 300bo. No recoil hardly at all. This way you stay legal no matter if brace is outlawed

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Smale]

you can fold the crap out of your brace and they could care less because its not considered a stock or a gun. it will probably break though if you try to fold it. Plastic doesn't fold well. Fold your buffer tube and your folding part of the weapon and it will be measured extended. A brace doesn't count because its removable. Let me watch you shoot your ar with the buffer tube removed!! Find me ONE manufacture of a folding ar stock that will say its safe to shoot folded! an ak is a different animal. It is measured folded because it has a brace not a stock and there are no parts folded that are part of the designed operating system of the gun. I think I will trust the batfs opinion of what someone here says. I would suggest you shouldn't trust what im saying either. Call them yourself. Because if you think your going to court and are defending yourself with what I or someone else on the internet tells you your probably going to get a chuckle out of the jury box.
https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/ATF-folded-brace_Redacted.pdf

took a whole 5 min to find the letter. Your welcome. Better keep all that info you they gave you and have your lawyer on speed dial if you ever get caught doing something.

[JimB..]

best to consult with the atfe, as supposedly they just made more changes to the rules for this.

This is the best way to ensure that they dick with the rules, I really wish that people would stop doing this. Please stop writing letters!

[tomme boy]

It does not have to cycle. Only shoot. That is what they are saying. And that is why a lot of people are pissed off. Never go by what the BATF tells you. Go off of what they put in print. Same thing as with LEO's. NEVER trust what they tell you. They can flat out lie to you and you will be the one that is in trouble. And they will never be held accountable. They also have what is called qualified immunity. If they think they were right you can not sue them no matter what they did or say. That is why it needs to be in writing.

People like you are the reason that some of this has happened. STOP WRITING LETTERS TO THE BATF! It does no one any good.

[JimB..]

Just to blow everyone’s minds, ATF letters don’t mean much either. The law is the law, the letters are an administrative interpretation of the law at a specific time and related to a specific set of facts. That they sent a letter doesn’t mean that they can’t argue something different at a later date. Sure it’ll be harder for them to take a different position in court, but if they want you, you’ll be broke by the time they are done with you anyway so it really doesn’t matter.

If you can’t get yourself comfortable with the law, then maybe you shouldn’t play in this particular sandbox.

Oh, and stop writing letters!

[lefty o]

This is the best way to ensure that they dick with the rules, I really wish that people would stop doing this. Please stop writing letters!

they dick with, and change the rules at will whether people inquire with them or not. of course one can go blindly thru life and end up with an illegal rifle/pistol. one could always claim ignorance if busted with one, but the gvmnt dont care about your lack of knowing the law. stick your head in the sand if you wish, but when you end up in jail over it, dont cry.

[Geezer in NH]

IMHO pay the $200 bucks get stamp and have fun!

Cheaper than a lawyer and way better than jail

[JimB..]

they dick with, and change the rules at will whether people inquire with them or not. of course one can go blindly thru life and end up with an illegal rifle/pistol. one could always claim ignorance if busted with one, but the gvmnt dont care about your lack of knowing the law. stick your head in the sand if you wish, but when you end up in jail over it, dont cry.

Actually they issue letters very very infrequently except when people inquire. As I said above, if you can’t figure it out then maybe not the game for you to be playing.

[lefty o]

Actually they issue letters very very infrequently except when people inquire. As I said above, if you can’t figure it out then maybe not the game for you to be playing.

please cite me one instance and show some proof of it that anybody inquiring about anything with the atfe ever, has resulted in a ruling or restriction being changed? i think you guys have your tinfoil on a bit too tight.

[JimB..]

please cite me one instance and show some proof of it that anybody inquiring about anything with the atfe ever, has resulted in a ruling or restriction being changed? i think you guys have your tinfoil on a bit too tight.

If you read the second line of this letter https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download I think it’s clear that they are responding to public inquiries. There are only hundreds pf these letters, flip through them and you’ll see that in general they are responsive to changes in state or federal law, changes in operational procedures for ffls, or public inquiries.

[lefty o]

If you read the second line of this letter https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download I think it’s clear that they are responding to public inquiries. There are only hundreds pf these letters, flip through them and you’ll see that in general they are responsive to changes in state or federal law, changes in operational procedures for ffls, or public inquiries.

not what i asked.

[dubber123]

As the OP, I measured the firearm in question, it is 25" WITHOUT the folding adapter, just the way I bought it, so under the 26" limit for rifles. Since it is already under 26", (doesn't apply to pistols anyways), I can't see where adding the folding adapter will change a thing in this instance.

[Lloyd Smale]

glad you think im so important. I trust nobody. Not even whats written because it can be twisted just like scripture. I do know one thing. I would trust what the batf agent said over the phone with 3 witnesses including one that's a county Sherriff over what someone on the internet that got his info from someone else on the internet all day long. Never wrote a single word to question the batf. But smart people do. People like those who are designing braces ect. who want it in words in case they do end up in court. Me? at least I can show up with a sheriff that has a reputation for his word being true and you show up with a copy of an internet post off the ar15 fourm and we will compare outcomes. If writing them brings more rules so be it. At least unlike today we will know where we stand and when were breaking the law and it wont be left in the hands of a batf agent or a judge that doesn't like you to make there own determination.
It does not have to cycle. Only shoot. That is what they are saying. And that is why a lot of people are pissed off. Never go by what the BATF tells you. Go off of what they put in print. Same thing as with LEO's. NEVER trust what they tell you. They can flat out lie to you and you will be the one that is in trouble. And they will never be held accountable. They also have what is called qualified immunity. If they think they were right you can not sue them no matter what they did or say. That is why it needs to be in writing.

People like you are the reason that some of this has happened. STOP WRITING LETTERS TO THE BATF! It does no one any good.

[Lloyd Smale]

that right there is FACT
Just to blow everyone’s minds, ATF letters don’t mean much either. The law is the law, the letters are an administrative interpretation of the law at a specific time and related to a specific set of facts. That they sent a letter doesn’t mean that they can’t argue something different at a later date. Sure it’ll be harder for them to take a different position in court, but if they want you, you’ll be broke by the time they are done with you anyway so it really doesn’t matter.

If you can’t get yourself comfortable with the law, then maybe you shouldn’t play in this particular sandbox.

Oh, and stop writing letters!

[Lloyd Smale]

other bit of intellegence
they dick with, and change the rules at will whether people inquire with them or not. of course one can go blindly thru life and end up with an illegal rifle/pistol. one could always claim ignorance if busted with one, but the gvmnt dont care about your lack of knowing the law. stick your head in the sand if you wish, but when you end up in jail over it, dont cry.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup dubber just look at it with a worse case senerio in mind. IF the dumbest sob of a cop shows up at the range and doesn't like you gun and googles batf laws. When I do a pistol I look at batf law and Michigan laws. I make sure that in ANY situation im in obvious compliance with all laws. That means I don't measure my guns with the brace off or folded or the flash suppressor removed. If the gun its at the range and a officer comes up and says Lloyd set that thing down. I can and he can measure everything he wants. Because if nothing else and he thinks something is questionable hes going to confiscate your gun and its going to be a pain to get it back. I even laminate my pistol registration and the copy of the batf letter for each brace I use laminated and keep them in the case I use for that gun. I do it that way and know about 90 percent of the law enforcement around here by first name. If I shot where I didn't id sure as heck make sure my eyes were dotted and my t's crossed. You want to really get one angry. Tell him that some guy on the internet says hes smoking crack and doesn't know the law. Its guys that want to push the limits and claim to know it all that are the real reason the batf is constantly changing laws.
As the OP, I measured the firearm in question, it is 25" WITHOUT the folding adapter, just the way I bought it, so under the 26" limit for rifles. Since it is already under 26", (doesn't apply to pistols anyways), I can't see where adding the folding adapter will change a thing in this instance.

[6bg6ga]

If stopped your letter shows their point of view as of that date. This in my twisted mindset would show that you in effect have tried to follow the rules and regulations. As for anything anymore it doesn't mean squat.

[Lloyd Smale]

that's about it pal. It shows only that on the day that letter was wrote that was the rule. It also shows my intent to follow the law which would probably mean more to the police I know around here then a state tropper in down town Detroit that doesn't know me from Adam. But id have to guess if that stranger is going to at least pause and maybe not instantly throw me on the ground and cuff me. Now if I told him he didn't know what he was talking about because some guy on the interent said------------ well you can imagine. Same in court. If you got arrested on a number of charges and one was that gun that was borderline with the batf and think your going to tell THEM the law, your probably going to be found guilty for owning it. If you prove you legitimately thought you were following the law and have witnesses that will say that and that's the only thing you did wrong and you were polite to the officer that judge is probably going to tell you to take your gun home and make it legal and don't do it again.
If stopped your letter shows their point of view as of that date. This in my twisted mindset would show that you in effect have tried to follow the rules and regulations. As for anything anymore it doesn't mean squat.