Pedersoli 38-55 Hi-wall problems

[barnabus]

i have a new Pedersoli Hi wall in 38-55 1:12 twist that i took for the first shots today to the range.Im shooting a Accurate money style 350 grain bullet sized to .381 it appears the bullet is tumbling and keyholing at 50 yards using 22 grains of 5744 at about 1250 fps which is the starting load in the Lyman cast book.Some bullets are not even hitting the 28x48 target frame.i slugged the barrel and it looks like its .378-379 would this oversized bullet cause this?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I use a custom lathe-bored 375gn boolit over 50 gns of Swiss No.2. My bore is measured to 0.379". The oversized bullet would not cause this ?

https://i.imgur.com/Z2bCbxZ.jpg

[Toymaker]

I've the same rifle and you're close to the load I use = Lyman 378-674 (Beagled), sized to .379, weigh 325 grains in Lyman #2 alloy. I use 20.6 grains of AA 5744, CCI Large Rifle primers and go for an O.A.L. of 2.95". I found it shoots better if the bullet just engages the rifling. The lube is Ben's Red. Velocities have been holding right around 1,500 fps. I also use the same load with powder coating instead of lube with great success. Off the bench I get 4 to 6 inch groups at 200 yards in cold weather and a bit smaller in hot weather.
I use Lyman #2 alloy because I found I got lead splinters in the first 6 - 8 inches of the bore where the rifling peeled the bullet as it tried to engage the rifling. This isn't leading, but it effects accuracy. The powder coating also stopped it with 20:1 alloy bullets.

What's your lube? Alloy? Do you know your velocity? What bullet are you using? Does it have a long nose which might allow slumping with a soft alloy? Are your bullet bases clean and sharp? Are you using the 2.125" brass?

245396

[barnabus]

I've the same rifle and you're close to the load I use = Lyman 378-674 (Beagled), sized to .379, weigh 325 grains in Lyman #2 alloy. I use 20.6 grains of AA 5744, CCI Large Rifle primers and go for an O.A.L. of 2.95". I found it shoots better if the bullet just engages the rifling. The lube is Ben's Red. Velocities have been holding right around 1,500 fps. I also use the same load with powder coating instead of lube with great success. Off the bench I get 4 to 6 inch groups at 200 yards in cold weather and a bit smaller in hot weather.
I use Lyman #2 alloy because I found I got lead splinters in the first 6 - 8 inches of the bore where the rifling peeled the bullet as it tried to engage the rifling. This isn't leading, but it effects accuracy. The powder coating also stopped it with 20:1 alloy bullets.

What's your lube? Alloy? Do you know your velocity? What bullet are you using? Does it have a long nose which might allow slumping with a soft alloy? Are your bullet bases clean and sharp? Are you using the 2.125" brass?

245396
im using the Starline brass.bases are nice and filled out at .381. IM using range lead which is about 9-10 on hardness scale. Lube is LBT velocity is about 1250 according to lyman book.no nose slump. my bullet is 1.314 long

[barnabus]

I use a custom lathe-bored 375gn boolit over 50 gns of Swiss No.2. My bore is measured to 0.379". The oversized bullet would not cause this ?

https://i.imgur.com/Z2bCbxZ.jpg

are you saying a oversized bullet would not cause this? any idea whats IS causing this?

[Texas by God]

Try a shorter bullet and see what happens.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Chill Wills]

i have a new Pedersoli Hi wall in 38-55 1:12 twist that i took for the first shots today to the range.Im shooting a Accurate money style 350 grain bullet sized to .381 it appears the bullet is tumbling and keyholing at 50 yards

Did you post about this rifle on the CBA?
I assume you checked the rifling twist with a rod to make sure this rifle really is a 12 twist. If so this is the special run Pedersoli made to DanT's chamber print and I will post a bullet that fits the chamber and shoots well as reported.
If it is not a 12 twist, and Pedersoli made a bunch of Highwall rifles in 38-55.... It is a 1 in 18 twist from memory. That may give you some trouble with the current bullet you tried today.

Anyway. Here is the bullet print:245398

[barnabus]

Did you post about this rifle on the CBA?
I assume you checked the rifling twist with a rod to make sure this rifle really is a 12 twist. If so this is the special run Pedersoli made to DanT's chamber print and I will post a bullet that fits the chamber and shoots well as reported.
If it is not a 12 twist, and Pedersoli made a bunch of Highwall rifles in 38-55.... It is a 1 in 18 twist from memory. That may give you some trouble with the current bullet you tried today.

Anyway. Here is the bullet print:245398

no that wasnt me.

[Gunlaker]

If the rifle is a 1:12 twist it should stabilize that bullet. Bullets that are too fat don't generally tumble. If the twist is correct maybe you are driving them too hard causing gas cutting?

When you say that 22gr is Lyman's starting load, what book and bullet weight are you using? None of my Lyman books has data for a .38-55 bullet that heavy.

Chris.

[barnabus]

If the rifle is a 1:12 twist it should stabilize that bullet. Bullets that are too fat don't generally tumble. If the twist is correct maybe you are driving them too hard causing gas cutting?

When you say that 22gr is Lyman's starting load, what book and bullet weight are you using? None of my Lyman books has data for a .38-55 bullet that heavy.

Chris.
https://i.imgur.com/jvCGoxt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Wpd8M8q.jpg

Load info in Lyman 4th edition.Take a look at this bullet.This is after chambering and then removing. Can you see how it looks like the throat is marking the bullet? The bullet is seated to the top of the grease groove.the broken indentions on this bullet in front of that solid ban is where i put it in the end of the barrel just to see how big it was in relation to the bore.

[country gent]

I would carefully pull a seated bullet and measure it diameter along where its seated. A to small expander may have the softer bullet being sized down by the case. The 1-12 twist should stabilize that bullet very well. I believe your issue may be with the expander ball here.

[barnabus]

I would carefully pull a seated bullet and measure it diameter along where its seated. A to small expander may have the softer bullet being sized down by the case. The 1-12 twist should stabilize that bullet very well. I believe your issue may be with the expander ball here.

already done that.im using the rcbs cowboy dies with the large expander. no swagging taking place

[Michael J. Spangler]

Could it be too slow to stabilize?
Maybe bump up the speed a little and see how it works.

[Toymaker]

That bullet isn't a Lyman 378-674. Generally engaging the rifling isn't a bad thing with this rifle. That long nose could well be slumping. Try a harder alloy, something up around BHN 15. DO double check the twist rate.

Chill Wills Has Pedersoli ever come out with a mold for the 1885 High Wall? I've never seen one and the Paul Jones #2 is impossible to find.

[Chill Wills]

To my knowledge Pedersoli hasn't made any molds for this 38 chamber/rifle combo. And you are right, finding a Paul Jones mold would be hard.
This mold print is valuable in that a mold maker like Steve Brooks can make a high quality copy from it. It could be as well that other, "one off design your own" mold makers could make it too, but maybe the trade off would be having to settle for a flat nose in the "print" body or some such because they are not able to cut that high Bc nose.

IF I were the lucky owner of this rifle, I would send Steve Brooks the mold print and see what he thinks. I am betting the mold he makes for this rifle would produce bullets that would shoot well!

take care

[MT Chambers]

I had a Pedersoli 38/55 and it never shot well, tried short and long bullets up to .383" dia., BP only, ended up trading it away.

[Lance Boyle]

Verify your twist rate. If one of the slower twists you Might try the hunter’s supply 260 grain .381” bullets as a quick test.

[barnabus]

I had a Pedersoli 38/55 and it never shot well, tried short and long bullets up to .383" dia., BP only, ended up trading it away.

well that didnt help but thanks.im sure you shoot a shiloh.SMH
.

[Gunlaker]

There was an article written by Kenny Durham for the Black Powder Cartridge News about the fast twist Pedersoli highwall. Mind you, it only dealt with black powder loads, but if you like I can dig up specifics on the bullets used for the article. He got decent results to 500m from what I remember.

Chris.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My boolit is a Paul Jones made and you can see from the pic, that the boolit is seated to just engage into the rifling at loading. I wipe between every shot. The only thing that I do different is use Federal large pistol primers in all my black powder loads.

[Green Frog]

I friend of mine has an Italian high wall (Pedersoli? Uberti?) Anyway, he was getting similar results out of his until he borrowed my VERY oversized (.383”) Ideal 375249 and his problem went away. Not sure that’s your problem, but I’ve seen a couple of high walls (one Italian, one original) that had that problem.

Froggie

[barnabus]

I friend of mine has an Italian high wall (Pedersoli? Uberti?) Anyway, he was getting similar results out of his until he borrowed my VERY oversized (.383”) Ideal 375249 and his problem went away. Not sure that’s your problem, but I’ve seen a couple of high walls (one Italian, one original) that had that problem.

Froggie

my rifle has been slugged at .377

[Jackpine]

I have owned two Uberti High Walls and with both of them, the best groupings with the 330 range bullets was larger than the worst groupings with bullets in the 250 range. Based on twist and bore, they both should have shot the heavier bullets well, but another example of how my guns obviously do not read the same books I read!!:veryconfu

[GARD72977]

Jackpine I mean no disrespect to you. I just do buy in to different gun like different things like the weight of bullets.

Your gun likes what it like because of the particulars of your gun.

Accurracy is determined by physics. I was going to make a long post but I will keep it short. If you gun is not reacting as it should you have a problem somewhere. It could be the formula you are using or it could be the throat in your gun. My point is physics didn't change when they made your gun.

Look for the problem.

[Jackpine]

Jackpine I mean no disrespect to you. I just do buy in to different gun like different things like the weight of bullets.

Your gun likes what it like because of the particulars of your gun.

Accurracy is determined by physics. I was going to make a long post but I will keep it short. If you gun is not reacting as it should you have a problem somewhere. It could be the formula you are using or it could be the throat in your gun. My point is physics didn't change when they made your gun.

Look for the problem.

Not really sure what you are trying to convey. You say to agree that different guns like different weight of bullets, which is what I thought I said.

[GARD72977]

My point is twist will always work better with a certain length of bullet.

The reason a shorter or longer bullet than the optimal length bullet does better has nothing to do with twist. It is going to be another variable like sizing, throat design, bullet design or hardness etc...

I'm just saying a twist will be optimal with a certain length bullet at a given velocity.

When some newby reads a post like this he goes away thinking that the twist is not a rule set it stone. The truth is it's just one of many factors in accurracy. You can shoot accurrate bullets with less than optimal twist. There is just some potential not used.

[oger]

It sure sounds like the twist is not 1in12 my old Shiloh is 1 in 14 and it won't work with that long a bullet.

[barnabus]

It sure sounds like the twist is not 1in12 my old Shiloh is 1 in 14 and it won't work with that long a bullet.

my twist is 1-12 i checked it myself

[Bkingnsmth]

The heavier the bullet the faster the twist needed. Now check your bullets for consistency in weight. The long length could cause voids.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[barnabus]

The heavier the bullet the faster the twist needed. Now check your bullets for consistency in weight. The long length could cause voids.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

i weigh all my bullets and shoot them in groups. out of 500 poured they all were within 2 grains of each other.

[barnabus]

Jackpine I mean no disrespect to you. I just do buy in to different gun like different things like the weight of bullets.

Your gun likes what it like because of the particulars of your gun.

Accurracy is determined by physics. I was going to make a long post but I will keep it short. If you gun is not reacting as it should you have a problem somewhere. It could be the formula you are using or it could be the throat in your gun. My point is physics didn't change when they made your gun.

Look for the problem.

what problem could be with the throat.my bullet when sized to 381 shaves off about 3ths before the top driving band.what problem could this cause? I bought a 378 sizer and loaded some up tonite and they dont seem to touch the throat or shave off any lead.

[sharpsguy]

Two grains is a LOT of weight variation. Think more along plus or minus two tenths variation.

[barnabus]

Two grains is a LOT of weight variation. Think more along plus or minus two tenths variation.

they are two gains in pouring. I shoot them in batches of 2 tenths of a grain

[GARD72977]

what problem could be with the throat.my bullet when sized to 381 shaves off about 3ths before the top driving band.what problem could this cause? I bought a 378 sizer and loaded some up tonite and they dont seem to touch the throat or shave off any lead.
My point is if you have a 1in12 and Jimbob has a 1in12 they are the same. What is different? The Chamber, Bore,Throat, etc..... This is the reason not your twist is different than others.

[BCRider]

Going back to the picture in post #10 of the round pushed into the chamber then extracted I have to wonder about the bullet size. The lead is pushed back as a smooth collar all around the nose of the bullet. Not just the leade of the rifling.

Am I wrong in thinking that is a "red flag"? If the bullets are that large and if there's a bit of a sharp step that peels off lead like this I'm sort of thinking that there's little advantage and perhaps a disadvantage if the bullets are sized to anything larger than the diameter of that cut down diameter. Perhaps the peeled off lead is getting caught in the riding bands and causing problems with the run down the bore? Or otherwise fouling up the accuracy?

I've got a Uberti High Wall myself. I tried heavier bullets and had zero luck. But later found out that the diameter of those bullets were a little small. I've had good luck with my own rifle in bumping up the bullet diameter in a swaging mold I made. But I rapidly found that I needed a nose cone mold to prevent the nose from increasing in diameter. So far I've got my best results from bumping 245gn .378-.379 bullets up to .381 to .382. Most are .382 but the odd one only bumps to .381. Likely me not whacking the plunger hard enough.

[John Boy]

Ideal 375166 - 320gr - 42gr FFg accurate to 500 meters in a 1:18 twist

[barnabus]

Going back to the picture in post #10 of the round pushed into the chamber then extracted I have to wonder about the bullet size. The lead is pushed back as a smooth collar all around the nose of the bullet. Not just the leade of the rifling.

Am I wrong in thinking that is a "red flag"? If the bullets are that large and if there's a bit of a sharp step that peels off lead like this I'm sort of thinking that there's little advantage and perhaps a disadvantage if the bullets are sized to anything larger than the diameter of that cut down diameter. Perhaps the peeled off lead is getting caught in the riding bands and causing problems with the run down the bore? Or otherwise fouling up the accuracy?

I've got a Uberti High Wall myself. I tried heavier bullets and had zero luck. But later found out that the diameter of those bullets were a little small. I've had good luck with my own rifle in bumping up the bullet diameter in a swaging mold I made. But I rapidly found that I needed a nose cone mold to prevent the nose from increasing in diameter. So far I've got my best results from bumping 245gn .378-.379 bullets up to .381 to .382. Most are .382 but the odd one only bumps to .381. Likely me not whacking the plunger hard enough.

i have slugged the bore after the photo above and thought the same and have sized the bullets at 378 which is correct for a 377 bore.no nose damage and it still tumbles

[rfd]

how does the muzzle crown look through a magnifying glass?

[barnabus]

how does the muzzle crown look through a magnifying glass?

its fine and shoots shorter and lighter bullets into about 1.5 inches at 100 yards.