H4227 in 38 Special?

[Snobal]

Is anyone using H4227 in 38 Special with cast boolits?

H4227 is my favorite for accurate loads in 44 mag with cast boolits, but I've not tried it in 38 Special.

My old manuals show max as anywhere from 9.5 grains to 14.2 grains of H4227 with a 158 gr. cast bullet in 38 Special.???

I would guess that much of it won't burn, but it leaves the barrel almost lead-free in my 44 mag Redhawk --- and that is what I'm trying to get with 158 grain cast bullets in 38 Special in my GP100.

Since the old reloading manuals vary so widely in the "max" loadings for 38, I'm hoping to save some time and just ask what you folks have learned.:-D

Thanks!

[Lloyd Smale]

to slow. Why fool with a powder that isnt really ideal for the round when you can load bullseye or something simular and use half the powder and get the same results cheaper. 4227 and other powders in that burning rate are slow burners made to get the most velocity out fo mag handguns. it neads to be loaded at higher pressures to get it to burn properly. Not something you want in a 38

[Calamity Jake]

Lloyd said it, too SLOW

[AZ-Stew]

There are a number of loads shown in the load data at the Hodgdon web site, but as stated above, you use a lot more powder to achieve the same result as you would get from other powders. None of the loads shown are anywhere near what you quote from the "old" manuals. Be careful!

Leading in a revolver is more closely related to: 1.) bullet hardness with respect to the pressures you'll be expecting with your chosen load and 2.) the bullet diameter-chamber mouth diameter-bore diameter relationship and 3.) proper lubrication than it is to what powder you choose.

P.S. Welcome to the board!

Regards,

Stew

[Scrounger]

Lloyd said it, too SLOW

Now to balance the books we'll get a request for a good light load suitable for a woman using WC 820 in the .454 Casull or .480 Ruger case. They must have quit printing reloading manuals...

[AlaskaMike]

I'd try it and see how it works. Many people here have great luck with H4227 and .45 colt, and .45 Colt is darn close to the same pressure as .38 special.

I will say that when I tried IMR4227 (slightly slower than the Hodgdon I think) in the .45 Colt at standard pressures, there was so much unburned powder in front of me in the snow that it looked like I shook out a sandwich bag full of black pepper on the ground! The load was certainly plenty accurate though.

Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont know how low you want to go. In the 454 Ive loaded 24 grains with a 300 using a ww small rifle primer and it was pretty consistant. I dont know if id go any lower
Now to balance the books we'll get a request for a good light load suitable for a woman using WC 820 in the .454 Casull or .480 Ruger case. They must have quit printing reloading manuals...

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont know how low you want to go. In the 454 Ive loaded 24 grains with a 300 using a ww small rifle primer and it was pretty consistant. I dont know if id go any lower. Get a accurate arms loading manual and use aa9 data. Again wc820 might be a little to slow for your application
Now to balance the books we'll get a request for a good light load suitable for a woman using WC 820 in the .454 Casull or .480 Ruger case. They must have quit printing reloading manuals...

[Snobal]

I'd try it and see how it works. Many people here have great luck with H4227 and .45 colt, and .45 Colt is darn close to the same pressure as .38 special.

I will say that when I tried IMR4227 (slightly slower than the Hodgdon I think) in the .45 Colt at standard pressures, there was so much unburned powder in front of me in the snow that it looked like I shook out a sandwich bag full of black pepper on the ground! The load was certainly plenty accurate though.

Mike

Yes, much of the powder is unburned.

But the neat thing is if you look at a recovered cast bullet, you can see where the unburned powder was embedded into the base of the bullet....:-P

So....it can be used to shoot cast pistol bullets with very little leading because the bullet base does not get cooked like with Bullseye or Unique.

I put about 20,000 rounds through a Ruger 41 Mag Blackhawk and the flame cutting under the top strap was amazing. Found out it was due to using lots and lots of Blue Dot (which was the "wonderful new powder" in the 70's). I get no flame cutting with H4227.

Also, H4227 has a very "unique" recoil.... more like the "push" of a black powder rifle compared to the "smack" of a center fire rifle.

My chronograph has "no dog in this fight," and in 44 mag, with the same bullet, working up loads to the same velocity, and using other powders, I have found that I can get the velocity I'm looking for with H4227 and noticeably milder recoil, than with the more "efficient" powders like H110, 296, 2400, etc.

Also, my chronograph don't know what I'm shooting across it, and I've had the most consistent velocities (smallest standard deviation) with H4227 and excellent accuracy (for this old coot) out to 100 yards.

Bullet expansion was very "iffy" in the 70's so I stuck with hard cast, heavy, SWC bullets and had no problem taking deer in New York, South Carolina, and Utah with them in my 41 and 44 mags.

But my favorite thing about cast bullets and H4227 is the reduction in leading. Revolver throats stay clean, and typically one pass with a brush will clean barrels.

And I had to laugh about the "throwing pepper on the snow" comment because it very accurately describes shooting H4227.;) That is why I mentioned that much of it would not burn in 38 Special.

Anyway, today I tried 9.5 grains of H4227 and a Hornady 158 grain bullet (pure lead) in 38 Special cases and after 30 rounds, one pass with the brush was enough to clean the barrel.

...and BTW, it grouped very well.:p

I plan to set up the chronograph next week and see what the velocity is. I'm trying to get a totally lead-free 800 fps and reasonable accuracy at 50 yards.

H4227 may may not group well in the 800 fps range --- but that's about the speed I'm looking for. Normally, it does the best if it is compressed just a little.

And yes, I can get the 800 FPS with about 4.3 grains of Unique or about 3.1 grains of Bullseye, but then I get some leading and more recoil.....

Just an old guy trying to spend more time shooting and less time cleaning guns.:-D

[Snobal]

to slow. Why fool with a powder that isnt really ideal for the round when you can load bullseye or something simular and use half the powder and get the same results cheaper. 4227 and other powders in that burning rate are slow burners made to get the most velocity out fo mag handguns. it neads to be loaded at higher pressures to get it to burn properly. Not something you want in a 38

Lloyd ---

Thanks for the reply!:drinks:

But my question was, "Is anyone using H4227 in 38 Special with cast boolits?"

...and "Yes," I have been using both Unique and Bullseye for target loads since the '60's and have always had some throat and barrel leading (more so with Bullseye than Unique). Nothing that can't be cured with a Lewis Lead remover for the throat and a brush or a little JB Bore compound in the barrel.... but always a nuisance.

...and "Yes," H4227 does best when it it compressed a bit....[smilie=1:

I plan to use it in a GP100 so going a little over 15,000 CUP should not be a problem. But if I wanted 1,200 fps, I'd use 357 mag cases.

I'm just looking for a "lead-free" 800 fps or so.

Thanks again.

[crabo]

I know it is not what you asked, but it is hard to beat 231 in the 38. You can load 2 for one of the amount of 4227 you are using.

[44man]

The 4227's are the WORST powders for the .44 and .45. They are super heat sensitive, flatten primers and shoot faster and faster as the gun warms. They work in the .357 super mag and some other calibers. I found they suck in the 45-70 too, poor accuracy!

[Snobal]

I know it is not what you asked, but it is hard to beat 231 in the 38. You can load 2 for one of the amount of 4227 you are using.


Crabo -

Thanks for the tip.:-P

But I have a lot of H4227 that I'd like to use up before I die.

...and I'm trying to avoid buying another reloading manual as I have several --- and while they show loads for 230 power, they don't show loads for the new 231.;)

[Snobal]

The 4227's are the WORST powders for the .44 and .45. They are super heat sensitive, flatten primers and shoot faster and faster as the gun warms. They work in the .357 super mag and some other calibers. I found they suck in the 45-70 too, poor accuracy!

Thanks for sharing your experience about loading H4227 in 38 Special.;)

I guess the folks that wrote my Lyman reloading manuals were really stupid when they listed 4227 as the "accuracy" load for several cast bullets in 44 mag.:coffee:

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive never noticed those tendencys but then i dont load 4227 to the ragged edge. Most of my hot loads are aa9 and 110. I use 4227 for slightly reduced loads. thats where i find it gives the best accuarcy. As to unburned powder. Try collecting some of those kernals and youll find they dont burn. what your are seeing is unburned filler. 4227 is one of the most accurate slow powders for reduced loadings and it wouldnt be that way if it wasnt burning at lower pressures. I also have tried it in the 4570 and it must be a matter of gun choise because ive had a couple loads ive tried shoot real well in my guns. It seems to do as well as 2400 in that aspect for me.
The 4227's are the WORST powders for the .44 and .45. They are super heat sensitive, flatten primers and shoot faster and faster as the gun warms. They work in the .357 super mag and some other calibers. I found they suck in the 45-70 too, poor accuracy!

[Bass Ackward]

Ive never noticed those tendencys but then i dont load 4227 to the ragged edge. Most of my hot loads are aa9 and 110. I use 4227 for slightly reduced loads. thats where i find it gives the best accuarcy. As to unburned powder. Try collecting some of those kernals and youll find they dont burn. what your are seeing is unburned filler. 4227 is one of the most accurate slow powders for reduced loadings and it wouldnt be that way if it wasnt burning at lower pressures. I also have tried it in the 4570 and it must be a matter of gun choise because ive had a couple loads ive tried shoot real well in my guns. It seems to do as well as 2400 in that aspect for me.


Atta boy Lloyd. A lot of ol timers just called it the cast bullet powder instead of 4227. Under a lot of uses, it's powder and filler in the same shell. Keeps the column burning from the back forward. And then, hard lead was 12 BHN.

As far as it burning differently, that's a factor of lube break down that you may not get with cooler burning (dirtier) balls. Powder fouling will act as part of the lube to augment it if you are operating on the edge of the lube. That's why the old line exists about working up your loads in the hottest weather or barrel condition that you will shoot. Same thing can happen with 2400 or 5744 if you don't realize it cause you end up out running your lube.

But we choose powders for a number of reasons and most of them work when they solve one of "our" problems that we created. 4227 can be one of the most accurate powders cause it is fairly linear. Especially with softer lead and lower pressure loads.

If you are running hard enough lead for the pressure and velocity, well then, you can use a faster (cheaper) powder.

[44man]

All my experience with 4227 in the .44 was with jacketed 240 gr bullets for IHMSA. It WAS super accurate if the gun is shot slow and kept cool. I used 22 gr's with both H and IMR.
However when on the line in the summer sun the gun would get very hot shooting 40 rounds. I dropped to 21 gr's with no change.
That my friends, is where you will see what the powders do!
Most others using the powders were loading 25 gr's but watching their scores and results, none were ever hitting many targets, the average around 15 out of 40. They could not figure out that it was the powder causing all the poor shooting.
I know most of you never shoot more then a few shots so you will never see the facts.
Switching to 296 won me Ohio state with 79 out of 80. With 4227 I would have been lucky to get 10 or 12.
However, the .357 max just loved the powders.

[Snobal]

All my experience with 4227 in the .44 was with jacketed 240 gr bullets for IHMSA. It WAS super accurate if the gun is shot slow and kept cool. I used 22 gr's with both H and IMR.
However when on the line in the summer sun the gun would get very hot shooting 40 rounds. I dropped to 21 gr's with no change.
That my friends, is where you will see what the powders do!
Most others using the powders were loading 25 gr's but watching their scores and results, none were ever hitting many targets, the average around 15 out of 40. They could not figure out that it was the powder causing all the poor shooting.
I know most of you never shoot more then a few shots so you will never see the facts.
Switching to 296 won me Ohio state with 79 out of 80. With 4227 I would have been lucky to get 10 or 12.
However, the .357 max just loved the powders.

Thanks!

Now we see where you are coming from.8-)

I get my best accuracy in 44 with cast bullets in the 21 to 22 grain range, but each lot varies --- that is why I got a bunch of one lot.

I have no experience with IHMSA matches, but I set up a 100 yard, reduced size IHMSA range with swinging targets in my back yard some years ago and really enjoyed those damn turkeys.:wink:

And yes, I got my best jacketed bullet results with 296 and H110.

I sure wish they still made AL7.:( That stuff worked very well in 38.:o

I agree that temperature can really screw up a "pet" load. When Blue Dot was the rage in the '70's, we found that our favorite loads went to "poo poo" when the temps dropped. Didn't know why until I got a chronograph and observed shot-to-shot variations of 150 fps one morning when it was about 20 degrees.:roll:

[Snobal]

Atta boy Lloyd. A lot of ol timers just called it the cast bullet powder instead of 4227. Under a lot of uses, it's powder and filler in the same shell. Keeps the column burning from the back forward. And then, hard lead was 12 BHN.

As far as it burning differently, that's a factor of lube break down that you may not get with cooler burning (dirtier) balls. Powder fouling will act as part of the lube to augment it if you are operating on the edge of the lube. That's why the old line exists about working up your loads in the hottest weather or barrel condition that you will shoot. Same thing can happen with 2400 or 5744 if you don't realize it cause you end up out running your lube.

But we choose powders for a number of reasons and most of them work when they solve one of "our" problems that we created. 4227 can be one of the most accurate powders cause it is fairly linear. Especially with softer lead and lower pressure loads.

If you are running hard enough lead for the pressure and velocity, well then, you can use a faster (cheaper) powder.

WOW! What a great explanation of cast bullets and 4227!

Thank You!

I'm just too old and lazy to heat-treat my cast bullets. Actually, I got my best accuracy with a mixture of 9 lbs of wheel weights and 1 lb of solder, air cooled, and shot at about 1200 fps. But that was just me, my guns, and my below average shooting.

I started shooting cast bullets to save money, but when I discovered what you could do for accuracy by adjusting sizing diameters and alloy - I was "hooked."

[Bass Ackward]

I know most of you never shoot more then a few shots so you will never see the facts. Switching to 296 won me Ohio state with 79 out of 80. With 4227 I would have been lucky to get 10 or 12.


Powders will burn differently under different situations. I used it under fast shooting conditions when I was younger. Not much of that was full power jacketed. Couldn't afford that. I never tried long range accuracy with jacketed shooting fast, but I never developed pressure signs for sure. Gramps has a can of it and a Six Pack in with him. Said he wanted it in case he had to do some bribin ta get in.

Since you admit to cheatin at the championships using jacketed. Did you ever try cast with that powder under the same conditions? :grin:

[9.3X62AL]

And yes, I got my best jacketed bullet results with 296 and H110.

SAME HERE.

I agree that temperature can really screw up a "pet" load. When Blue Dot was the rage in the '70's, we found that our favorite loads went to "poo poo" when the temps dropped. Didn't know why until I got a chronograph and observed shot-to-shot variations of 150 fps one morning when it was about 20 degrees.:roll:

Good ol' Blue Dot. I recall an article in one of the gunrags c. 1975 by the late Bob Milek, and he advised that at -30* to -35* Blue Dot got squirrelly with pressure spikes. Being in my early 20's at that time--and accordingly still immortal--I filed that bit of info away "just in case". Just in case I left the Coachella Valley and went someplace where frost could actually happen. Even in those heedless days, I don't think I would have been out chasing critters in those sorts of temps.

[shooting on a shoestring]

4227 in a .38 is like putting diesel in your weedeater, it just won't burn right.

If you have lots of 4227 and its a problem, that should be grounds for aquiring a firearm that could properly dispose of the 4227.

[Snobal]

4227 in a .38 is like putting diesel in your weedeater, it just won't burn right.

If you have lots of 4227 and its a problem, that should be grounds for aquiring a firearm that could properly dispose of the 4227.

Thanks for the response.:-D

But the question was, "Is anyone using H4227 in 38 Special with cast boolits?"

I use 4227 for my 44 mag and adjust the charge to get about 1,250 FPS with a hard-cast 250 gr. Keith-type bullet. Love the powder because I get almost no leading, low recoil, and great accuracy. Have taken tons of jacks, several coyotes, and a bunch of deer with that load. Works good!!!

Just wanted to save multi-trips to the range (and chrono set up time) by asking for your experience with 38 Special.:-D

After I posted this question (and discovered no one here has tried it???), I tried 9.5 grains of 4227 in a 38 special cases with Hornady 158 gr. SWC pure lead bullets. It did exactly what I wanted - low recoil - little leading - and what looked like at least "paper plate" accuracy at 25 yards.

I plan to clock a few with hard-cast bullets this week, try a few different charge levels, and see how they group at 50 yards.:-D

I want to have a low-pressure, plinking load that shoots well (without leading) in revolvers ranging from a Combat Masterpiece, S & W 638, to a GP100.

Gas for trips to the range and primers cost so much that I could care less about the cost difference between 3.1 grains of Bullseye vs 4.3 grains of Unique vs 10 grains of 4227 to get around 800 FPS.

[S.R.Custom]

I played around with H4227 in the .38 special about 10 years ago... It works great in getting all the velocity that is possible to get out of the .38 Special within allowable pressure limits.

My particular experience involved a S&W model 14 with a 6" barrel and 158 gr. commercial cast bullets. Powder charge ranged from 10.5 to 13 grs. (Data taken from Sierra's 3rd.) Accuracy was very good, velocity brisk, and leading was minimal. The longer 6" barrel is almost mandatory, though, as the same loadings in a 4" gun gave less than mediocre accuracy...

As gratifying as the experience was, I quickly learned that 2400 worked just as well, and Herco gave the same or better performance in terms of both velocity & accuracy at just about half the powder charge, and worked as equally well in short barrelled guns...

In other words, H4227 works really well in the .38 Spl with the heavier bullets. Much the same way 110 octane racing gasoline works in my F-150 pickup; it runs great, but you're spending twice as much as you need to for the performance the vehicle is capable of.

[Snobal]

I played around with H4227 in the .38 special about 10 years ago... It works great in getting all the velocity that is possible to get out of the .38 Special within allowable pressure limits.

My particular experience involved a S&W model 14 with a 6" barrel and 158 gr. commercial cast bullets. Powder charge ranged from 10.5 to 13 grs. (Data taken from Sierra's 3rd.) Accuracy was very good, velocity brisk, and leading was minimal. The longer 6" barrel is almost mandatory, though, as the same loadings in a 4" gun gave less than mediocre accuracy...


As gratifying as the experience was, I quickly learned that 2400 worked just as well, and Herco gave the same or better performance in terms of both velocity & accuracy at just about half the powder charge, and worked as equally well in short barrelled guns...

In other words, H4227 works really well in the .38 Spl with the heavier bullets. Much the same way 110 octane racing gasoline works in my F-150 pickup; it runs great, but you're spending twice as much as you need to for the performance the vehicle is capable of.


SuperMag ---

Thank You!!!!

Your experience with 4227 in 38 Special will really help me know what to look for.:-D

I did a "lot" of experimenting with my 6" K-38 years ago before I got over trying to get high velocity from a 38. Now I just look for accuracy at a reasonable velocity for the caliber I'm working with.

Learning that 4227 worked ok for you with a 6" barrel, but noticeably worse with a 4" barrel is the kind of information I was looking for.

I'll most likely load up a few hundred rounds of 158 gr hard-cast SWC with a lite charge of Bullseye or Unique for plinking (like I've done for the past 40 years), but I wanted to at least "try" the 4227.

So, I'll try H4227 groups with different length barrels and see what the chronograph shows for shot-to-shot velocity variations.

Thanks again.:-D

[shooting on a shoestring]

OK, so here's my data for H4227, fired in .38 Spl Mod 60 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 358156 no gas check, WWs AC'd, CCI 500, 5 shot strings over Oehler 35P chrono at apprx 8 feet:

grains/average fps/SDEV
9.0 601 19
617 32

9.3 642 29
636 23

9.7 693 17
698 17

10.0 703 35
702 30

10.0 grains muzzle up before firing 756
10.0 grains muzzle down before firing 648

Group size not recorded.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

IMR 4227 will work well and has done so for me in the .38 special with 158 grain bullets. Relatively speaking it takes a heavier charge weight to do so and many shooters shy away from using more powder than usual. It does however give good accuracy with lower pressure. It does not work well with wadcutters of lower weight and leaves quantities of unburned powder. Dupont loading tables for .38 some years ago listed loadings for 4227 with pressures and velocities, so it is entirely a viable venture. I have used IMR 4227 in 44 Mag with a 255 grain H&G #503 with 18 grains. It was originally a load developed and used by E. Keith in the 44 special and I have shot this combination in two S&W M-29's (6" and 7-"3/8 barrels) with good accuracy. It can be loaded up to 22-23 grains for higher performance. Sized .429 and lubed with NRA 50/50 formula, there is no leading. I use a medium roll crimp. Its not the cleanest burning arrangement in terms of fouling, but it works well. LLS

[Snobal]

Thank You!:-D

Weather turned to poo poo. I'll try to get out with the chronograph when it warms up a bit.:-D

The muzzle down-vs-up data is interesting. Although not compressed, 10 grains does not leave much room in the case.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Yep thats one of the really interesting things to do with a chronograph. I've found in .38s, .357s and .45 Colt, some position sensitivity with virtually all loads I've loaded, albeit the Bullseye and 700X loads have such little difference it really isn't measureable. The full case/compressed loads also show little difference. The worst, or biggest difference comes with the spherical powders like HS6, HP38 AA#7 etc... I've seen some vary as much as 150 fps for .38 loads arouind 800 fps average velocity. That's alot in my book.

I like H4227 and have burned seveal pounds in .45 Colt heavy loads, a few heavy .357 and lots of .22 Hornet.

You can shoot it in a .38. Its just that the powder is not very efficient for .38. However, if you're point is trying to shoot using what you've got, yep you can get it to go bang.

[Snobal]

Yep thats one of the really interesting things to do with a chronograph. I've found in .38s, .357s and .45 Colt, some position sensitivity with virtually all loads I've loaded, albeit the Bullseye and 700X loads have such little difference it really isn't measureable. The full case/compressed loads also show little difference. The worst, or biggest difference comes with the spherical powders like HS6, HP38 AA#7 etc... I've seen some vary as much as 150 fps for .38 loads arouind 800 fps average velocity. That's alot in my book.

I like H4227 and have burned seveal pounds in .45 Colt heavy loads, a few heavy .357 and lots of .22 Hornet.

You can shoot it in a .38. Its just that the powder is not very efficient for .38. However, if you're point is trying to shoot using what you've got, yep you can get it to go bang.

This forum is wonderful! Can't tell you how much I am enjoying reading and learning from you folks. Been casting bullets since the 70's and this is the first time I've had folks to talk with about it.:-D

Anyway, my point was to see what other folks had learned about H4227 in 38 Special. Yes, I have a "quantity" of it, but also Unique and Bullseye.

My goal was to have a plinking load that shot "paper plate" or better accuracy at 50 yards from some "shorty" revolvers --- and with little or no leading.

I "discovered" H4227 from talking with one of my favorite gunsmiths after I really burned up the throat and topstrap of a 4 5/8 inch Blackhawk 41 mag with Bluedot. Along with very little flame cutting, I got good groups and almost no leading with the 4227 powders in 41 and 44 mag (air cooled wheel weight alloy with some 60/40 solder added).

I was asking for other folks' experience because I had learned that 4227 starts grouping for me with a case full of power (i.e., powder level to the base of the seated bullet). In 38 Special, the more recent load manuals now show only 9 to 10 grains with 158 grain bullet --- which is not close to a "case full."

Got some 38's loaded with 4227 to group and clock in a few revolvers. But from what I've learned, it sounds like my next big batch of 38 ammo will be loaded with Bullseye or Unique to avoid the "muzzle up - vs - muzzle down" velocity swings with lite loads of 4227.

Thanks All!:drinks: