Full Wadcutter loads, recommendations, please

[sniper]

Hi!
I have some 148 gr Double-ended wadcutters, sized .358 that I bought from Matt Dardas before he retired.
I just read C.E. Harris' article on the Full Wadcutter load, :) and it is very interesting.

I am now looking for a Wadcutter load in the 800-900 fps neighborhood, loaded in 357 Magnum brass, standard primer, 4" barrel. Boolits will be relubed with BLL or Lars' 45-45-10. Do button -nosed wadcutters have any advantage over the flat-ended type?

I have Unique, AA #5, Universal and Trail Boss. I figure somewhere in there, I should find a good, accurate load for general use...maybe even to 50 yards and beyond.

Can anyone suggest a good starting point/go-to load with my available powders?
Thanx!:-)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I never found a significant difference in DE or FB wadcutters, and 148 gr. is the standard size. I had great luck with 2.5 gr. of Bullseye powder, which was kind of a standard load for the old PPC game. But, I never loaded this loading in .357 Mag. brass, always .38 Spec. Certainly the other powders you mentioned will perform well with wadcutters, but my experience with them has been to drive JHP bullets at higher velocities. Speculation only, but Trailboss might be your best choice for a 8-900 fps. wadcutter in .357 Mag. brass due to it's increased bulk.

[Dale53]

I load 3.5 grs. Bullseye in a .38 Special case behind a double ended wadcutter. Hodgdon has info on their website using the .357 case. Check that out:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Or, you can safely add 1.0 grs to my .38 Special load when using the .357 case without issue.

I have used the full charge wadcutter (as in the Ed Harris article) for years in the field on small game with excellent results.

Dale53

[rintinglen]

I have used 5 grains of Unique with the Lyman 358-63 loaded flush with the .357 case mouth. I do not know the velocity, but it felt like a +P 38. The 160 grain 358-432 worked better when crimped in the crimp groove and driven by 6.5 grains of unique, but I must confess that I only shot a box or two of these, as I had a 4 cavity 358-477 at the time that made a lot of boolits quickly and that got more use.

[Drm50]

I shoot nothing but Wadcutters in all but 3 of my revolvers. In 38/357 both I shoot the button nose WC. In m14 K38 , M19 and m27. I use 357 brass in 19 & 27. It just makes sense to me that use of the longer 357 case provides less "jump" from chamber to barrel. I load Unique and Bulleye and velocities of about 750. These WCs are cast soft. I have cast up hard WCs for 357 and ran them close to 1000fps. My Bro has a full lug K38 6" 10x with Leoupold scope and with the hardcast WC & Bullseye at 850fps he shoots into 4" at 100yds from rest. I have the double end WC mold too but like the button nose better. Also a HBWC which is very accurate the slower you shoot it 650fps range. I shoot the button nose in 44sp, 44mg, 45ar and 45 colt. Don't have a 41 WC mold or I would be using it.

[35remington]

4.7 - 5.0 of Unique or a tenth or two less of Universal should get you where you want. Universal is not particularly desirable in low pressure loads in low loading density situations as here, which is verging on that condition if you want 800 to 900 fps. Some diligent testing will reveal whether the powder is acceptable for this use with varying position in the case. I already have an opinion on the matter.

It does better (Universal) under wadcutters in 38 cases than 357 cases when going 8-900 fps from a 4 inch. Trail Boss should do fine but cannot recommend a load for it based on personal experience.

The button nose is supposed to help aerodynamics theoretically making them more stable to slightly longer range, but I must say both work out to 50 yards which is about all I want most of the time. I sort of like the dead flat face and like to imagine it makes an impact difference but nothing living I shot with the button nosed type acted or bit the dust differently than when hit with the flat ended ones.

[StrawHat]

I load 3.5 grs. Bullseye in a .38 Special case behind a double ended wadcutter. Hodgdon has info on their website using the .357 case. Check that out:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Or, you can safely add 1.0 grs to my .38 Special load when using the .357 case without issue.

I have used the full charge wadcutter (as in the Ed Harris article) for years in the field on small game with excellent results.

Dale53

My experience mirrors Dale’s with the exception that I have not used magnum cases.

Kevin

[Outpost75]

In .357 Magnum brass with solid-based DEWC seated to 1.32" OAL you can load up to 5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 5.5 grs. of 231 or HP38, 6 grains of Unique or Universal, or 9 grains of Alliant #2400. These are heavy field loads which are also accurate, exceeding .38 Special +P energy.

[RU shooter]

I used the load that outpost 75 states . With my 358495 button nose WC I tried 5gr of BE but 4.5 shoots better in my 686 . I'm sure it will shoot through anything I need it too .

[Petrol & Powder]

sniper - Outpost75 (and all others on this thread) have provided solid information.

As for the button nose wadcutter shape, there's some evidence that the small, flat button nose shape improves the stability of the wadcutter but I've never seen a big difference in accuracy. Some people say that nose makes loading easier when using speedloaders. I think with slightly chamfered chambers ("charge holes" in S&W speak), even flush seated full WC's are fairly easy to use with speedloaders; so that difference may be insignificant.

I'm a big fan of standard pressure full wadcutters in 38 Special. It is a useful round. Stepping up to a 357 mag casing requires a little more powder to achieve the same velocity with all other factors equal. A little more case volume requires a little more powder (as all the other members on this thread have pointed out)

[country gent]

The button nose is also thought to help cut full dia holes when competing in matches like NRA pistol ( 2700). I have used a lot of wadcutters over the years, Star National alberts home cast. For awhile 160grn wadcutters were gaining some use. It takes a lot of testing in a very accurate gun to see the real difference between the noses of wadcutters.
My load is very accurate from all my firearms but not in your 8-900 fps range. My load is 148 grn HBWC 2.7 grns bullseye (old) rem pistol primer in a 38 spl case. This load also works well with a double end wadcutter

[Dale53]

One thing I don’t see mention of here:
I have been present three times on the range, when hollow base wadcutters resulted in damage to a both a revolver or auto. The skirt separated and stayed in the barrel (probably caused from a slightly heavy charge for the hollow base). The front of the wadcutter hit the target so there was no reason to to believe there was a problem. The next shot bulged the barrel.

This will NOT happen with a solid base wadcutter. I have had no problem reaching match accuracy with solid base wadcutters, so I quit using hollow base wadcutters years ago after witnessing those failures.

I use full charge wadcutters, as I mentioned, for both range and field use. I have seen little difference in either accuracy or use on game between my double ended wadcutter or my H&G #50 button nose wadcutter. Frankly, my double ended mould is an iron, six cavity H&G mould that weighs nearly five pounds with handles. As I have gotten to be an old man, the H&G four cavity iron mould for the #50 is much less tiring to use. As a result, I tend to cast more of the button noses for general use.

FWIW,
Dale53

[Outpost75]

Skirt separation can sometimes happen firing factory .38 Special HB wadcutters in .357 revolvers.

I once saw a new-agent class at Quantico average 66 hits on a 60-shot Tactical Revolver Course when the bureau first changed from .38 Special Model 10-8s to .357 Model 13s.

[Jtarm]

One thing I don’t see mention of here:
I have been present three times on the range, when hollow base wadcutters resulted in damage to a both a revolver or auto. The skirt separated and stayed in the barrel (probably caused from a slightly heavy charge for the hollow base). The front of the wadcutter hit the target so there was no reason to to believe there was a problem. The next shot bulged the barrel.

This will NOT happen with a solid base wadcutter. I have had no problem reaching match accuracy with solid base wadcutters, so I quit using hollow base wadcutters years ago after witnessing those failures.

I use full charge wadcutters, as I mentioned, for both range and field use. I have seen little difference in either accuracy or use on game between my double ended wadcutter or my H&G #50 button nose wadcutter. Frankly, my double ended mould is an iron, six cavity H&G mould that weighs nearly five pounds with handles. As I have gotten to be an old man, the H&G four cavity iron mould for the #50 is much less tiring to use. As a result, I tend to cast more of the button noses for general use.

FWIW,
Dale53

According to Glenn Fryxell, the HB gives no better accuracy than solid base WC.

I assume that’s IF the boolits are both a proper fit.

[facetious]

I think the button nose was so you colud use the seating stem for a SWC to seat them.

[Groo]

Groo here
Load Trailboss to bottom of bullet where you seat it, use a heavy crimp in crimp groove or over edge of flat[ever see factory target loads NOT so crimped???]
Light with a hot or magnum primer.
Have fun...

[quail4jake]

In .357 Magnum brass with solid-based DEWC seated to 1.32" OAL you can load up to 5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 5.5 grs. of 231 or HP38, 6 grains of Unique or Universal, or 9 grains of Alliant #2400. These are heavy field loads which are also accurate, exceeding .38 Special +P energy.

Thanks Outpost! What charges of those powders would you recommend for .38 Spl +P loads (using .38 Spl brass) using that same DEWC? How close are Universal and Unique as far as interchangeability?

[Outpost75]

Thanks Outpost! What charges of those powders would you recommend for .38 Spl +P loads (using .38 Spl brass) using that same DEWC? How close are Universal and Unique as far as interchangeability?

For use in .357 guns only, use the same charges at the SAME ctg. OAL. Or reduce 10% if loading shorter to 1.20" OAL in .38 Special cases for use in sturdy revolvers like Ruger SP101, Service Six, Speed Six, Colt Official Police, S&W Model 20 Heavy Duty.

Universal varies somewhat from lot to lot and is close to, but not fully interchangible with Unique, as some lots do run faster.

[Drm50]

HBWCs in my experience have to be kept at lower velocities than solid base. I can see the problem with skirt causing barrel buldge. Never saw it myself but do notice groups opening up the faster you push them. The button nose WC has been around a long time, never thought about it being designed for SWC seater.

[Good Cheer]

The Speer HBWC with the little spherical bulge on the front also had a step that became a jimdandy GC base when the little bulge was trimmed off. Then the hollow base could be used for a variety of nose styles.

[Bill*B]

Any load that drives a 148 grain .358" wadcutter to 700 fps or better can penetrate 15 - 16" of gel, and will take care of business. I wouldn't worry about the heavy stuff.

[Outpost75]

Any load that drives a 148 grain .358" wadcutter to 700 fps or better can penetrate 15 - 16" of gel, and will take care of business. I wouldn't worry about the heavy stuff.

Very true, but the same bullet at 1000 fps will penetrate 30"+ and penetrate clear through a big hog, horse or cow broadside if you've the need.

[Bill*B]

Yes, the load should be suited to the game. I forgot the quadrupeds.

[sniper]

Thanks all for the responses! I now have a place to safely begin experimenting. :bigsmyl2: I even think, based on the good information here, that 7-800 fps will be sufficient to any reasonable need.

I have a copy of a page from an old Speer (?) manual that someone posted, and it may even have been on the Forum (no number given, but it doesn't look like it would be out of line.
It shows shows a 357 Mag. for a 148 gr. full wadcutter starting charge Of 5.5 gr. Unique. No OAL given, but the loads seem in the ballpark. That load is the same as my old 150-158 gr. SWC IPSC load, which was chronoed at 860 fps. If I drop the load .5 gr, I think I should be in safe territory, and think I could probably work it up to 5.5 gr. The full wadcutters I have do not seat noticeably deeper in a 357 case than my SWCs.

Now, the real question: If I were to buy a copy of the Speer #8 Manual, could I safely use the loads recommended for garden-variety 38 Special and 357 Magnum? I don't load to Max any more, because I enjoy shooting milder loads. What do you think?

Based on the information I have received, I won't be buying a Speer #8!

Thanx!

[Outpost75]

Speer No. 8 predates establishment of separate categories for standard and plus P .38 Special loads. The first Speer manual to do so was No. 10 which dates from 1979. As components change over the years, I REALLY recommend that you use a newer Speer manual, not older than No. 13, or the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010).

[Dale53]

When the Speer #8 Manual first hit the market, I was shooting a good deal with my S&W Model 19 with a six inch barrel. It was an EXCELLENT revolver and produced some FINE targets for me.

The Speer #8 had a good bit of data on the .357 Magnum using a powder new to me: 4756. The performance seemed extraordinary to me. I loaded up a number of same lot .357 Magnum cases with a 160 gr. H&G SWC. I started out with a load of 4756 TWO grs. under max and proceeded to the range. The load shot very well, but I noticed that the rounds impacted the targets at fifty yards NOTICEABLY quicker than my standard full load. I told a couple of my shooting buddies what a great powder this seemed to be. One of them was a bright engineer by profession with much shooting and reloading experience.

He tried my suggested loads in his Smith Model 27. He had to POUND the cases out of his cylinder with a rod. We immediately ceased operations

I consulted a Commercial Reloader who was a close friend. He was also a Licensed Mechanical engineer with much experience. He was the Indiana State Pistol Champion and also runner up in Ohio. He had extensive time at Camp Perry and was quite familiar with the Advanced Marksmanship Unit of the US Army.

He had contacts in a neighboring state that had a pressure gun. After locking up a TC Contender with my loads, they ran pressure tests. My two gr. under max load tested out at 67,000 psi!

After my friends further investigation, DuPont claimed that there were two different lots of 4756 that were quite different from each other. Well, I do not know WHAT the REAL problem was, but needless to say, i immediately quit using ANY loads with 4756 powder.

Another thing, I knelt down and said a prayer of thanks for the strength of MY model 19.

Not long after, a bunch of reports began to filter in about the over pressure loads from that manual in .38 Special, too.

Amazingly, people still use and recommend those loads.

I did not have access to a chronograph in those days. It would have been interesting, I am sure (assuming whatever gun I was using stayed together).

So, moral of the story is to NEVER use any loads from the #8 Manual without backup data!

Speer learned their lesson from this, as Ed mentions, and did a lot of research in pressure testing for later manuals.

Word to the wise ...

Dale53

[dogdoc]

Speer number 8 was an exciting manual! Check out some of the bombs for 45 auto rim but do not use!

[35remington]

Yes. Stay very far away from much of the Speer #8 data, especially 38 Special. A lot of it would be +P++ if attempted. Beware.

And yes, I have one. A lot of the loads are downright shockingly heavy.

[gwpercle]

My Pet Load for the last 40 years has been :
357 magnum case , primer CCI 500 (standard) , 148 grain cast WC , sized .358 , crimp into top groove .
5.2 grains Unique .
My Ruger Blackhawk groups them very well .

I bought a new Speer manual in 1970 , first printing , to be up to date and safe....It was Speer Manual #8 !
I had no idea I was loading potential bombs , my habit of staying away from max. loads paid off...
Gary

[Char-Gar]

In the 357 Mag. case, I shoot a solid base wadcutter over 5.0/Bullseye, 7.5/AA5 (original powder) or 10/2400. These loads all feel the same upon firing, hit the same point of impact and shoot with the same level of accuracy. These loads deliver fine accuracy out as far as I can hit anything with a handgun.

[sniper]

Dale53;
When I started reloading for my model 19, I also was fascinated by the performance claims made for 4756. I used it and liked it...until I saw the cautions about it in one of my manuals. I then thought that there were other, more common powders that will do the same, without the potential drama! Perhaps it is a good thing it was discontinued. Possibly the same thing with Blue Dot, which is a good powder, but with a possible overabundance of caution, is no longer in my powder selection.

[oldsalt444]

AA load data says 3.6 gr. AA #5 gives 710 fps. All the big ammo makers load their match grade .38 wadcutter loads to 710 fps for a good reason. It's as accurate as you can get with a 148 wadcutter. AA #5 is the same burn rate as WST and Green Dot, both of which are proven performers in competition. I have used 2.7 gr. WST & 148 HBWC for years in both my S&W Model 52 and K38 revolver. I can vouch for their accuracy. Recoil is mild, and a full wadcutter hits like a freight train.

[sniper]

Based on the information I have received, I won't be buying a Speer #8!
Thanx!
:grin:

[sniper]

I just received a shipment of RN-FP and SWC booits from Matt's Bullets...their standard sizing...359. I'm going to shoot some of them as received, and some I will resize to .358 to see if there is any difference. Probably not enough to get all excited about, reading some of the posts here. 8-)

[Jtarm]

In .357 Magnum brass with solid-based DEWC seated to 1.32" OAL you can load up to 5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 5.5 grs. of 231 or HP38, 6 grains of Unique or Universal, or 9 grains of Alliant #2400. These are heavy field loads which are also accurate, exceeding .38 Special +P energy.

What lube are you using?

[TNsailorman]

The problem that I saw with 4756 was the way people used it. I know a couple of fellows that tried to load the .38 Special to .357 magnum velocities with it, a recipe for disaster with any pistol powder, not just 4756. I loaded the .38 Special 125 grain hollow points to 900 fps without any trouble in my S&W Model 15-2. But the same loads in my brothers Model 19 .357 would be hard to eject. That just points up one thing I have found to be true, each revolver/pistol can be a case unto itself. My motto has always been to start with the listed start load and slowly work up. I have been loading since 1957 and I have yet to blow a primer or have a case stick in the chamber. Tomorrow may be a different story. Never, Ever, start with a maximum or near maximum listed load. I concur with the advice to use a late edition manual as long as you are using late edition powder. Manuals are fairly cheap compared to a set of eyes. my .02 anyway, james

[Good Cheer]

The old NEI gas checked .358 wadcutter was a good one if you wanted to cast soft and seat it long over 296.

[Jtarm]

Based on the information I have received, I won't be buying a Speer #8!
Thanx!
:grin:

I bought one out of curiosity.

I’m guessing it kept revolver smiths busy.

[sniper]

What lube are you using?

Late reply...Lars' 45-45-10, or BLL over whatever they come with.

[siamese4570]

I carry a 900fps wadcutter load in my 4" ruger sp101 357. A couple of weeks back I had to shoot an armadillo 4 times before it finally died. I'm sure that the first shot would have eventually killed but I was looking for a quicker result. Maybe armadillos are too dumb to die.
Siamese4570

[Green Frog]

Well, friend Dale53 hooked me up with a bunch of DEWCs in .314x90 gr. I’m wondering whether it would be worth my while to try and develop a 327 FM load with these bullets. He did hook me up with some reasonably stout 32 H&R rounds with this bullet, but he never warmed up to the Fed Mag. :coffeecom

Froggie

[imashooter2]

2.8 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain H&G 50. Good enough for Daddy, good enough for me.

It’s what I’d use under a DEWC too.

[tazman]

I never feel undergunned with 148 grain full wadcutters. They have a full meplat, so don't really neede to expand. According to ballistic gel tests I have seen, they penetrate to a very good depth(Lucky Gunner). They are easy to shoot and very accurate in my weapons.
The only drawback is the ease of reloading quickly. A different style boolit, such as a round nose or semiwadcutter, would be easier to do a fast reload with.
I carry a cylinder of wadcutters and two speedloaders. One with round nose and the other with SWC. Which I grab depends on how much time I think I have to reload. Not really much difference in reload times in a practical situation.