Looking Towards a Softer Shooting Load

[Old-Win]

I picked up an original Borchardt Long Range Rifle and my intentions are to shoot it a little at our long Range match here in MN in August. My ultimate goal is to take it to an anniversary match in Oak Ridge Tennessee. It is in 45-2.4" and I'll be shooting paper patch as it was meant to be. I drop tubed a full case of powder into my 45-90 Starline brass and it comes in at 101 gr so with a thin card wad and a little compression, I could be easily shooting close to 100 gr with a 540 grain bullet. Now, as I get older, the recoil is starting to have an affect and I only shoot around 87 grs in my other 45-90 and when I lift this 10 lb rifle, it is like a feather compared to my 12.5 lb rifle Where is the best place to start to get down to around 85 grs of powder. I've been reading about wad stacks etc and I don't want to use lube cookies unless there are good reasons. Also, is there a soft shooting powder out there that you've shot with success, Schuetzen (Wano)? Right now, I'm going to try 1F Swiss. Thanks

[Don McDowell]

Around 85 grains of Olde Eysnford 1 1/2 shoots well in the 45-90's that live here. I use a thin napa rubber cork wad under a Muzzleloader Originals dry lubed felt wad. OE 1f shoots very well in the 110's, but I have shot any of it in the 2.4's yet.

[BrentD]

Bob I would not waste time on other brands of powder, but wad stacks can work. I use the lubed felt wads that places like TOW and BACO sell for .44-.45 percussion revolvers. Two of them and a LDPE wad or fiber wad on either side may serve well.

Watch your paper patches after firing. There is a point where the load powder charge and the hard lead of a long range bullet may not bump up to engage the rifling well with a paper patched bullet. When that happens groups open up to multiple feet at just ordinary distances.

[Gunlaker]

In my .45-90 PP rifle, Swiss Fg does make for a little less recoil than Swiss 1.5. My Fg load is just as accurate as the 1.5 Fg.

If you are willing to use a lube cookie to fill up a little case volume, you can reduce recoil quite a bit. I've shot a relatively light (500gr) Creedmoor bullet with something like 85gr of Goex Fg and a lube cookie with quite good accuracy at 200m. I have never tried that load past that distance, but a similar load in my .45-110 ( with a heavier bullet ) has won our local gong match to 800m.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

You may want to shoot your current 45-90 load in that rifle. The recoil impulse on those target Borchardts tends to be quite a bit different than a 74. Who ever had this one I have chambered in 45- 2 7/8 built had a pachmayer recoil pad put on it, and running 40-50 rounds isn't bothersome at all. My original military in 45 has a long chamber so it uses 2.3 in cases, but with a limb saver slip-on recoil pad ,the worst part with it is the hook on the tang will tend to bite you're gun hand when shooting off the bench. I also had an original 45 2.1 carbine, and it was pretty mild mannered with 1.1 inch bullets, but got to be a handful with 500 gr bullets, but the recoil still wasn't as bad as the muzzle blast.

[country gent]

In my 45-90 I use a .060 napa rubber fiber wad and 2 tracing paper wads ( roughly .002 each) adding wads and maintaining oal length reduces powder charge. My rifle is a reproduction Hepburn at 12 lbs. When you say Long Range what distances are you referring to? If you know what compression you need for the load put the desired charge in and add wads too where you have the desired compression at the overall length. Test it and work from here

[rfd]

at least for me, wad stacks are the way to go if there's a need for using less power, receiving less recoil, and with a tad of experimenting the consistent accuracy will be just fine.

245357

[Lead pot]

Bob. When I go to the range I usually take loads that are loaded light for the young shooters (most are Woman) that like to try my Sharps and I always bring 20 rounds for them to use. I mostly shoot the .45-90 anymore and the loads I load for them will have a wad stack of one milk carton wad over the powder with a 1/8" lube wad then one 1/16" cork cut from cork gasket material I get at Tractor Supply that is very dense and 1.5F OE uncompressed with a 523 gr Paul Jones PP bullet. I patch these bullets a couple thousands under bore and seat them a little deeper so they don't have to worry about fouling control, just load and shoot, and they will hit the bowling pin at 200 yards in fine shape for them.
It puts a big smile on their face when they see that pin do summersaults hanging from a pipe :) and they always take follow up shots.
If you don't want to use a lube wad you might add a second cork. The recoil is less than a .45-70.
The cork wads sweep the fouling better from the previous shot fired.
I do the same for the .40-70.

[Old-Win]

Thanks, I'm going to put some different loads together this weekend and hopefully get to the range with this rifle next week. It's either raining or a heat index over 100 with high humidty:cry: My new tang sight is on it's way back from the welder so I should have windage on the back. The original staff has no windage and I don't think any match director today will let you look down your muzzle to adjust windage.
Brent, I saw in a different topic that you posted about Lodi. I've got a conflict that's eating me up. MN duck opener is the same weekend as Lodi. For some reason that's early and I've only missed 3 in over 60 years. but Lodi is calling too. I would like to sit down with you and have you tell me about that spring shoot at Oak Ridge. Are you going to make Harris in August?

[Lead pot]

Bob,
What is the date for the August shoot? and do they have a link with directions to the range?

[BrentD]

Kurt,
I was chatting with Bob about this. Somehow I missed the date this year, but I have shot it the last 3 yrs or so. It is 17-18 August.

If you type "Gopher Rifle and Revolver Club" into google maps, you will find it instantly. It is very easy to get to from Interstate 35.

This link might give it to you.
https://goo.gl/maps/VD8hGbudf2HL4buX9

[Lead pot]

TNX. Brent.
I would take 94 and cut through Eau Claire Wis. It's the same driving time as Alma Mi.

[Lead pot]

Well Bob I'm getting a little soft also. I got this shooting my new .45-100 at Alma and for the life of me I can't figure out how I got it on the bicep. I never pocket the rifle there. I know once on the 5th ram Carol said I had 16 seconds and I needed to unload, wipe and reload yet and the rifle bit me just as cease fire was called but the ram went down.
I never got a shoulder bruise from recoil yet.

245413

[BrentD]

TNX. Brent.
I would take 94 and cut through Eau Claire Wis. It's the same driving time as Alma Mi.

For me, Harris is under 4 hrs and Alma is 9 (Plus Alma has Chicago and Gary to contend with. That's a powerful pull to go to Harris.

Bruises flow downhill. Where it shows up may not be where it started. Sort of like a leak in your roof.

[Lead pot]

I hate the 2,4,6 lane parking lots. It makes no difference if you go through Gary, Holland or Grand Rapids.
The last few trips I took a 850 mile detour going over the Mackinac Bridge. If it wouldn't be for the good people that shoot there I would not even think going through those concrete jungles they call city's. I like shooting at Alma. The matches are run well, I never heard moans or groans or foul language for that matter. A good place to take your Wife and Kids.

Where else can you shoot where you get an adult diaper for winning a match shooting PP bullets. LOL.

I never had a bruise from shooting. Had several walnuts on the collarbone, but never a bruise. This one was a lot darker then what you see here :)

[BrentD]

Kurt, it's just another plumbing leak. You thought you were out of the business, but nope, you still have a leak to fix :)

Alma is a great place to shoot. I agree. I've loved the matches I've shot there, but Harris might win this one. I'll have to think on it some more.

[Lead pot]

I will try Harris if I get back from the Mountains in time. The 9 and 12 year old Cookie munchers want to go to them so we are going.

[BrentD]

Mountains would be REALLY nice right about now. Adiabatic cooling at 10,000 ft would make me feel a whole bunch better.

Have fun!

[Old-Win]

I got to the range yesterday with the Borchardt. I loaded a little different than I do when I tried paper patching earlier. Instead of using a taper crimp die, I used the full-length die and just worked it down until a bullet was a snug fit. This took care of a little powder room. I had a problem with them because when I went to seat the wads, they went in very hard and would not seat flat. Some were a little tipped unless I compress the load more. The load shot fairly well except I had a lot of vertical, about 6" at 200 yards. I was using 86 grains of Swiss, 520 Baco wrapped to .450" and two .060 wads with the bullet seated 0.150". Is there a smaller-diameter wad that a person could use instead of the .462's that I'm using?

[BrentD]

I got to the range yesterday with the Borchardt. I loaded a little different than I do when I tried paper patching earlier. Instead of using a taper crimp die, I used the full-length die and just worked it down until a bullet was a snug fit. This took care of a little powder room. I had a problem with them because when I went to seat the wads, they went in very hard and would not seat flat. Some were a little tipped unless I compress the load more. The load shot fairly well except I had a lot of vertical, about 6" at 200 yards. I was using 86 grains of Swiss, 520 Baco wrapped to .450" and two .060 wads with the bullet seated 0.150". Is there a smaller-diameter wad that a person could use instead of the .462's that I'm using?

Bob, where and when did you get the wads that you have now, and whose name is on the package?

There have been some developments in the wad market lately but I don't know if they have reached all the outlets.

For a few years, I was using John King's wads that I bought from BACO. But King retired from the wad making and John Walters started selling wads through BACO. These were cut on the same machinery that he punches his fiber wads with, but when punching LDPE, they stretch and come out bigger and very very hard to seat. Recently, John made up some tooling to cut smaller LDPE wads and sent me 5000 of them earlier this summer. They work like a dream in my very skinny brass. I don't know their diameters, but I'll check. But you need John's smaller wads. You might give him a call.

Brent

[Old-Win]

Brent, these are .060" fiber wads from John Walters. I don't know how long I've had them because I normally use .030" fiber. I was talking to Mike last weekend and he said that when he doubled up two .060" polywads that he had case stretching. Have you ever noticed that? I think I'm going to stick with the fiber wads for now but I know I'm in the minority there as you and Jim both use them with great success.

[BrentD]

Never had a problem with poly and stretching. I use 0.06" almost exclusively.

I just threw a small handful of them in my box to give you in a couple of weeks.

[rfd]

... Recently, John made up some tooling to cut smaller LDPE wads and sent me 5000 of them earlier this summer. They work like a dream in my very skinny brass. I don't know their diameters, but I'll check. But you need John's smaller wads. You might give him a call.

Brent

i use a fred cornell .45 press wad punch that creates LDPE's at .460 and since we're running the same PPB chamber with reformed brass that .460 is a BEAR to get down past the case mouth. what diameter are john's smaller LDPE wads and do they seal as well as the .460's? if so, i might see if fred could make a smaller diameter press punch. i was thinking perhaps a .455 diameter.

[Lead pot]

I stopped using .06 polly wads because my chambers are on the tight end. If I feel I need .06 wads I just use two .03's and I have no problems with case mouth bulges.

[Gunlaker]

RFD, you can use one of Cornell's .45 Colt wad cutters to get that diameter, or thereabouts. I have cutters that do 0.450", 0.454" or so, and 0.459" or so. My rifles ( with Dan Theodore's 0.474" chamber mouth diameter ) work best with the bigger LDPE wads. I actually bought the 0.450" cutter from Dan, I think he had it custom made by Fred. I recovered a few bullets with minor gas cutting using those wads so I've gone back to the 0.459" ones.

Chris.

[rfd]

chris,

i just talked with jim who builds the press wad punches for fred, or used to now that fred's retired. jim still build the punches for sale at BACO. he told me about .454" punch and it's offered by BACO. they're in stock and i'll give it a try, it's got to be better than the current .460" punch for .45's.

thanx,
rob.

[BrentD]

I would want my wads to be at least groove diameter.

I think the new Walter's wads are about .460ish, but who can measure rubber?

[rfd]

dropping to 78.1 grains makes it easy to press in a .460" diameter x .060" LDPE wad. 80 grains is tough, 82 grains is impossible. for the 80 or more, i typically need to resort to using a .020 card wad in order to compress and make room to push in the LDPE wad. this is all for reformed or fire formed .45-70 brass for a PPB chamber and for wad that sits .1" below the case mouth. i need to see how the 78.1 shoots.

[Gunlaker]

RFD, is this the same Jim that makes their molds I wonder.

I also find LDPE a little tricky to measure accurately. The wads I cut with their ".45 cal rifle" cutter certainly are easier to get into the case than their pre-cut wads are.

Chris.

[rfd]

RFD, is this the same Jim that makes their molds I wonder.

I also find LDPE a little tricky to measure accurately. The wads I cut with their ".45 cal rifle" cutter certainly are easier to get into the case than their pre-cut wads are.

Chris.

chris,

no, this jim (and his son david) are PA machinists who have always made the press mounted wad punches for fred cornell. fred retired and sold the rights to his press punch design to jim, who makes them and wholesales directly to BACO.

i've had a number of fred's press wad punches, they're superb. the .45 rifle punch creates perfect .460" wads out of most any material.

my problem with LDPE wads and fully charged cases is that attempting to initially push in a stiff and near inflexible .060" LDPE wad to a case that's fully powder charged to near its rim, the LDPE just won't "give" to that full up stack of powder, thus making it near impossible to finger or dowel press in and get it ready for press plug compression. if i can get one of these wads to get inside the case mouth, it can get skewed by the compression plug and "smear" inside the case and/or one portion of the case mouth can shear off a "thread" of LDPE. the whole process is time consuming, annoying, and at times frustrating - and i would normally have an unusual amount of patience for most unruly happenings.

this is compounded by one or two other factors - the slightly lower powder capacity of a PPB case (reformed or fire formed) and if the powder itself is a lot that is less dense than any previous powder (as some of us have recently discovered).

dropping down the powder charge weight fixes the wad entry problem, but might create a shooting problem. i'll see.

rob.

[Old-Win]

Rob, that's the problem I'm having right now with a full case of black in the 45-90. If you get the wad started, it wants to tip and then it will not level out when you try to push it flat. I'll see Brent in a couple weeks and he'll be bringing me some smaller diameter wads that I can try. I'm taking the rifle to the range again this week and get a little more range time with it and then I plan on shooting it on our practice day at the Harris long-range match to see how it holds up at a thousand yards.

[Lead pot]

Bob, maybe I'm misunderstanding this wad tipping. Does this happen after you compress? If so you might have compressed air pushing the wad back up. I see this quite often with my tight chambers.
I get around this by leaving the press handle weight on the compresses load while filling the next case with powder. That short timespand lets the compressed air escape from under the wad.

[Old-Win]

Kurt,
No, it's the fact that I get the wad started by having to push on one side to get it to go into the case and then that side is tipped down on the powder but the other side doesn't want to go down flat. It seems like the whole wad wants to go in tipped. When I use the compression die it will go flat but after I have to compress it quite a bit. I don't like to compress more than .050 - .070" with Swiss and that's not enough to make the wad level out. I'll have to work on that here in the next few weeks and find a way around it. I'm hoping a little smaller diameter wad will be the answer to the problem.

[Lead pot]

No, .050 - .070" compression is pretty soft to flatten a tight wad.

I use .030 and .040" wads cut from ice cream buckets. The ice cream bucket resen is very soft and it will dome in a tight case over light compressed powder. They will seal the groove and hold the gas behind the wad a lot better than a .030" lopd or fiber wads.

Loading up the new Axtel 77 2.6 cases for the Harris weekend. See y'all unless something drastic develops or I cant find the range gate. :) I just have to see if this rifle holds up at long range :)

[rfd]

the problem i have is that a full reformed or fire formed starline case of powder, nearly to the case mouth rim, will be a bear to finger set a .060" LDPE wad. the reason is that the LDPE is attempting to *compress* the powder. in the process of trying to do that with fingers and/or a dowel, the LDPE always gets skewed, and then there's a 50/50 chance that will further screw up whence under the compression plug. it's a real PITA, lemme tell ya.

the quick solution is to drop less powder, therefore making more room for the wad. in my case, i went from 82 grains of swiss 1-1/2f down to 78 grains. this yields the necessary room to finger push in the .460" plastic wad, get it fully past the rim and reasonably level (important!), and then into the press for a compress that leaves the top of the wad .1" from the case rim. this process works perfectly every time. but will it shoot?

a thing that worked for me with 80 grains (not 82 grains) is to first push in a .025" milk carton wad, compress that, then there's room to push in and compress the plastic wad to .1" under the case rim. i shot some of those last friday but i have not clear consistent accuracy results and more testing is required.

brent brought up a good point - going with a smaller diameter wad might not be a good thing if it can't seal a .458" or .459" rifling groove.

i need to test out the 78.1 grain charge with the jim453530e slick, prolly this friday.