Sights for the mile

[Thundermaker]

I see some of you have shot the wasserberger mile. I think Mr. Wasserberger himself is a member here. So, I have a question. What sights are you guys using? Is the MVA XLR sight my only option?

[country gent]

I believe they also use a front sight that's dovetail is slightly angled to help with the high rear and angle of the sights. Front sight height is going to have a bearing on the rear sights needed height. A shorter / lower front may help with the rear.

Another factor to consider into this is sight radius. Longer sight radiuses may require more height but will give finer adjustments. Chambering bullet and loads will also have a bearing here. There are many things to consider.

If your existing long range sight gets you close a simple block with staggered holes to raise the rear sight ( 2 holes counter bored and thru to bolt to tang and 2 tapped to bolt sight on and 1/2"-3/4" tall may get you what you need this would need to duplicate the tangs radius top and bottom. Not the absolute best set up but would be doable. One plus to this would be shooting some at distance and seeing what height you need before buying the new rear.

If you have an accurate bc for your bullet you can get a very good idea at 200 yds with a tall target. Run your loads ballistics and bc thru a program and get how high the bullet will hit at 200 yds when zeroed for 1 mile. with your tall target ( Aiming point at bottom and a line at the height) sight in to this number or the line on the target. This will give a very close idea of what your going to need. Also when adjusting this high you may need to slightly adjust the staffs angle for a good sight picture

[Dan Cash]

Hoke Long Range Sight Co. (Facebook) or email rilandtg@comcast.net. Hoke is competitive in price and produces the most practical and maintainable sight available with the most windage adjustment.

[Thundermaker]

Hoke Long Range Sight Co. (Facebook) or email rilandtg@comcast.net. Hoke is competitive in price and produces the most practical and maintainable sight available with the most windage adjustment.

They don't have one with enough elevation to get me where I want to go. They do look like nice sights, and I like that they have a mechanism to account for wear.

[Lead pot]

Here this should answer your question.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9489&start=15

[Don McDowell]

Dan runs the Sentinel Butte match, which includes a mile target. If he says he's getting by with the Hoke long range sight it's probably something you can take to the bank.
There have been some various extensions built that go over the block that normally holds the rear aperture sight and extends about 2 inches above the sight staff. It will generally take about 3 inches more elevation to make the mile beyond the rifles 1000 yard setting.

[Thundermaker]

Dan runs the Sentinel Butte match, which includes a mile target. If he says he's getting by with the Hoke long range sight it's probably something you can take to the bank.
There have been some various extensions built that go over the block that normally holds the rear aperture sight and extends about 2 inches above the sight staff. It will generally take about 3 inches more elevation to make the mile beyond the rifles 1000 yard setting.

He's probably not doing it with a 45-70 either. I've determined that I'll need about 400 moa of elevation. The XLR has 414 moa of adjustment on a 6" staff. The tallest staff that Hoke offers is 4" from what I can tell.

[Dan Cash]

They don't have one with enough elevation to get me where I want to go. They do look like nice sights, and I like that they have a mechanism to account for wear.

If the Hoke does not offer enough elevation to make a mile, you are not using enough gun and no sight will get you there. I put on a 1 Mile match and last weekend, two of the top three were using Hoke sights.

[BrentD]

If the Hoke does not offer enough elevation to make a mile, you are not using enough gun and no sight will get you there. I put on a 1 Mile match and last weekend, two of the top three were using Hoke sights.

The height of one's front sight and drop at the wrist are just as important as the length of the rear staff. You cannot evaluate whether a given sight will get you there unless you know all of these things.

[Dan Cash]

Brent, the manufacturers evaluate the length of staff required and make them that long. The base is made to accommodate the drop at the wrist for the intended application. If the user insists on a 2 inch tall front sight, that is his problem. Until now, I thought you were conversant with BPCR but your comment above, while technically true, is silly.

[BrentD]

Dan,
I disagree. And no, it is not HIS problem. It is his answer to some issue that he (or she) has to contend with.

For instance, with a DT front sight which is fairly low (lower than most windgauge front sights), I can and do use an MVA midrange sight out to 1000 yds comfortably on my Winchester. That sight will NOT however work at 1000 yds on a Shiloh Sharps. Just won't, even with the same low front sight. I would wager that the same will be true of a Hepburn or rolling block. I don't know the Hoke sight, but whether it works a mile still depends on front sight and drop at the wrist. End of story.

On my muzzleloader, I can shoot to 600 yds with an MVA schuetzen sight and a very tall front sight - close to 2" above the bore line. Because of the high wrist of a traditional Henry-styled muzzleloader, I cannot get down far enough for 200 yds unless I use this very tall front sight. Just a fact of life. Long-range muzzleloading requires the ability to work from 200 yds to 1000 yds all in one rifle. Changing out front sights is a whole bunch less convenient than changing staffs and NO ONE in America makes a Soule that will go low enough for 200 yds shooting with a traditional styled muzzleloader, unless a very tall sight is required.

Dan, you are the one that is silly, not I. Unless you are clairvoyant, and know what the shooter is using and all the rest of the details, as I described, you really do not know what he needs and you may be costing him unnecessary expense. I kindly ask that you keep your "silly" comments to yourself.

[Dan Cash]

I won't argue with you Brent lest the world think me a fool. I and many others who shoot the mile matches using a .45-70 loaded with black powder and mounting a 400 minute rear sight will go on our silly way.

[BrentD]

So? Exactly how does that pertain to what is necessary and sufficient for the guy that asked the question?

Sorry your feathers get ruffled.

[Gunlaker]

I haven't shot Kenny's match, but he has said to make sure that you have 2" elevation available beyond your 1000 yard setting.

Chris.

[Thundermaker]

I won't argue with you Brent lest the world think me a fool. I and many others who shoot the mile matches using a .45-70 loaded with black powder and mounting a 400 minute rear sight will go on our silly way.

So, you shoot mile matches with a 45-70, and Hoke makes a sight that has 400 moa of adjustment?

If that's the case, I'd really like to know what kinds of bullets and what loads you guys are shooting.

I finally got in touch with someone at Hoke Sights (apparently the younger Hoke is making them now). He told me that they have an "extra long range" sight with a 5" staff that would give me the 400 moa that I need. Something isn't adding up. MVA advertises 414 moa elevation on their XLR sight with its staff, which is 6" tall as measured from the pivot screw.

If it clarifies things, my rifle is a sharps 45-70 with a 28" barrel. The front sight is 1" above the center of the bore.

[BrentD]

I haven't shot Kenny's match, but he has said to make sure that you have 2" elevation available beyond your 1000 yard setting.

Chris.

THAT is the most useful information. So long as you know what the 1000 setting is for your rifle. Even a given elevation after a 200 zero would be more helpful than a single sight stem length.

[Lead pot]

The drop of the tang is the problem on what right staff hight. I don't shoot the mile, not yet anyway. I would like to make the mile at North Dakota. I know that the CPA .45-90 with the midrange sight will make the 1026 yard at Baker MT. but the 74 Sharps drops down just below the 1000. My new used Axtell has a tang lower than the 74 Shiloh. So I would measure the bore center and take it in account. Sights are expensive and no need to buy twice.
I know my .44-77 Hartford with the Lawrence barrel sight will reach a mile but I would need aiming points for wind because no wind adjustments on a Lawrence.

[BrentD]

Kurt, et al.
If you know your sight radius, and a current zero at any range, and can take even a fair guess at velocity and BC of your bullet, you can then estimate pretty closely what you need for sight height at any range. But you will need to standardize a few things, esp. if you are comparing between makers or styles of sights.

If anyone would like to do this but doesn't quite know where to start, I'd be happy to help you. Just send me a note via email (better than a PM).

[Old-Win]

As Brent says, it sure depends on what rifle you have the sight mounted to. I just grabbed my notebook and my 200 yd settings are like this. Here's some examples.

Hepburn with sight similar to Hoke: 104 pts
Borchardt with Hoke sight: 53 pts
Deeley and Edge with MVA: 9 pts. Yup, your reading it right. I shoot 1000 yd matches with an MVA mid-range on the Deeley with room to spare.
Highwall with MVA: 31 pts.
So you can see that the Hepburn chews up 95 pts more on the staff than my Deeley just to get to 200 yds.