The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both? [Archive]

PowPow

07-16-2019, 06:57 PM

I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible but still believe in God and most of what is in the Bible.

It makes it tougher is some ways and easier in others.

Cannot believe in 6-24hr days of Creation in Genesis. Too much of that does not add up.

Believe in the miracles and of course in Jesus and his time here on earth.

It is a document that has survived many centuries, translations from the original texts and the possible manipulation/interpretation of the men who wrote it. Hard for me to believe it is 100% accurate but it does not need to be to show us the path and to guide our lives.

I am curious. Your disbelief of the six "24 hour" days is for what reason(s)? Do you believe there are limits to God's power or do you just have a problem with the time units? Do you think it is possible that a day at the time of earth's creation was possibly a substantially different duration (all other things being constant) than today? Do you think it is possible/probable that each of those six days had a different duration as compared to today's day? "Bonus" question: Why do you think God revealed His creation to us in this manner?

I'd be a liar if I told you that I haven't wrestled with these same questions at times in my life, given my analytical mind.

Markopolo

07-16-2019, 08:19 PM

ok... i am outta this discussion. sounds like this is heading for the PIT

rl69

07-16-2019, 08:43 PM

It's all real it is the word of God

Snow ninja

07-16-2019, 08:56 PM

I think it's a good guide to live by with the "Love your neighbor" stuff. But I can't believe it is 100% spot on. Too much time and too many translations.

BNE

07-16-2019, 09:15 PM

I'm in. Its 100% real and true.

bmortell

07-16-2019, 09:24 PM

Sun dials , according to current history knowledge, were not put into use until just before 160 to maybe 300 BC.

Before that it is a tossup on how folks told themselves the time, other than sunrise, sunset & maybe "high noon", or "high moon".

Who am I, or anyone else to question, without more info.

;)

I saw recent evidence that people had good knowledge of astronomy and sailing ability's before the comet wipe 12,800 years ago, I think the ancients were a lot smarter than we think. and earth gets set back a lot more than we think.

GhostHawk

07-16-2019, 09:33 PM

When I was young I was full of doubts. "How could this be?" Water into wine, 3 small loaves and 5 fishes to feed a multitude with many baskets left over? Virgin Birth?

Now I have no doubts at all.

I had a grandmother who seriously studied the bible her whole life.
Thelma I said one day, what can you say for sure about the Bible?

"It is a history of one people's belief in one God"

That's all?

That is all you can prove Thelma said. The rest must be taken on faith.

I have not found her wrong, and I have found many who agree with her.

In some respects I am not the Christian she was, in others, she is not the Christian I have been turning into.

I know she was afraid to die, afraid of what she would face. I do not believe that I am. Lord I serve at your pleasure, when you call me home I will be ready to go.

God Bless you Thelma and John Robert Cain wherever you are.

exile

07-16-2019, 09:36 PM

John 1:1-5.

exile

dverna

07-16-2019, 10:47 PM

I am curious. Your disbelief of the six "24 hour" days is for what reason(s)? Do you believe there are limits to God's power or do you just have a problem with the time units? Do you think it is possible that a day at the time of earth's creation was possibly a substantially different duration (all other things being constant) than today? Do you think it is possible/probable that each of those six days had a different duration as compared to today's day? "Bonus" question: Why do you think God revealed His creation to us in this manner?

I'd be a liar if I told you that I haven't wrestled with these same questions at times in my life, given my analytical mind.

I believe there are limits to God’s power. Otherwise a loving Father (God) would remove lethal threats (Satan) from His children (mankind). God sacrificed His Son on our behalf so we may have our sins expunged. To me, it indicates God, at least then, and possibly currently is unable to defeat Satan. But, in time, that will happen...or so it is written.

Genesis “works” if the days are much longer periods of time. 24 hour days are unrealistic and not supported by our understanding of the universe, geology, genetics, and archeology.

God revealed creation in a manner that was understandable to man at the time. KISS. In essence, it is not important if creation took 6 days or 6 billion years...only that He was the Creator. Early man was not prepared to understand. It would have been like explaining how a child is born to a two year old. All the two year old needs to know is that mommy and daddy love each other made made them. It is not the whole story but close enough and serves the purpose.

Dieselhorses

07-16-2019, 11:01 PM

i dont believe the bible is the word of god, it is written by men to influence men.

Then it's a pretty positive influence then!

Dieselhorses

07-16-2019, 11:03 PM

OMG I can't believe I read this thread... "limits to God's power?" Okie Dokie

Traffer

07-16-2019, 11:21 PM

I always thought,"As God is real, would he let people learn, study and live by what we call "His Word" if were not correct?" Not logical. Because God is who he is, he honors people by maintaining the veracity of His Word.

country gent

07-16-2019, 11:40 PM

I believe the bible is the word to follow. I believe it is a accurate recounting of Gods and later Jesus's teachings. But it has been translated many times by man over the years and by many different peoples over the years. Thus thru translation interpretation and such there may be slight changes from what was originally put down

Traffer

07-17-2019, 01:51 AM

I believe there are limits to God’s power. Otherwise a loving Father (God) would remove lethal threats (Satan) from His children (mankind). God sacrificed His Son on our behalf so we may have our sins expunged. To me, it indicates God, at least then, and possibly currently is unable to defeat Satan. But, in time, that will happen...or so it is written.

Genesis “works” if the days are much longer periods of time. 24 hour days are unrealistic and not supported by our understanding of the universe, geology, genetics, and archeology.

God revealed creation in a manner that was understandable to man at the time. KISS. In essence, it is not important if creation took 6 days or 6 billion years...only that He was the Creator. Early man was not prepared to understand. It would have been like explaining how a child is born to a two year old. All the two year old needs to know is that mommy and daddy love each other made made them. It is not the whole story but close enough and serves the purpose.

Have you ever considered this: 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and i knowledge of God!

How unsearchable his judgments,

and his paths beyond tracing out!

34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has been his counselor?” j

35“Who has ever given to God,

that God should repay them?” k

36For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen.

pmer

07-17-2019, 02:02 AM

I wouldn't say Gods power has a limit. But His patience might.. Keep working at it Don!

If you think that the 6 days is weird try the math in Daniel. The answer is 472 years (I think).

Gods son was lifted up to fulfill the law and events prophesied in the old testament. The cross brings the old and new testaments together introducing a new covenant of peace through the grace of God. Being born again doesn't take away life's storms but through prayer and commune with God we get a wisdom and perspective that is beautiful and timeless.

cainttype

07-17-2019, 08:03 AM

dverna

07-17-2019, 09:31 AM

cainttype,

The bible must always be quoted in context. If can, and has been used to justify many different points of view.

I urge to acquire the Quest (NIV) study Bible if you are truly interested in learning more. It does a decent job of explaining issues as there are sidebars on every page to help guide the reader to a greater understanding. It details why each book was written, who the book was written by, the period of time referenced in the book, why it was written, who was it written to, the salient points in the book.

There is no "right" answer to your questions. Why do you think we have so many different Christian religions? For example the United Methodist church is currently in upheaval over LBGT issues....and all of them are United Methodists!!!

The Bible provides a reference that you must study and you will reach an answer that works for you. Your answer could span the extremes of accepting every word as true and factual, to rejecting it all and being an atheist. Many Christians do not accept every word as true...or at least live their lives as if they do not.

It is normal to have doubts and questions. God wants us to think about things. But in the end, Christians must believe in Jesus, and that the only way to salvation is through Him. All Christian religions have that in common and the Bible is explicit in that tenant. It is unquestionable.

But if you are a troll, please leave this forum.

cainttype

07-17-2019, 09:52 AM

Let’s be clear... I am asking personal opinions about what people believe, there is no all-encompassing answer... and I’m a little surprised at the responses so far.
If a legitimate question is posed in a sub-forum that was set aside specifically to discuss those questions, no individual is required to contribute... but the suggestions of “trolling” IS trolling. Similar innuendo is only used BY trolls.

A definition might be in order here...
TROLL.....In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chatroom, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

Attempts to sidetrack the ongoing conversation IS trolling...attempting to sow discord among the participants IS trolling.

Part of Christianity is discussing and explaining your beliefs to others, even those unwashed heathens that might have different opinions. The Christian faith that I’m familiar with does not expect it, it demands it.
If someone finds the conversation uncomfortable it is their problem, no one else’s, and they do not need to join... Especially if “trolling” is their goal.

There may be “TROLLS” posting here, but it is NOT me.

jmort

07-17-2019, 10:13 AM

OMG I can't believe I read this thread... "limits to God's power?" Okie Dokie

In a vacuum, God is omnipotent has no limitations whatsoever.
But God has voluntarily limited his power.
Example,

Genesis 9:11 et seq

The Covenant of the Rainbow
"…11And I establish My covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between Me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13I have set My rainbow in the clouds, and it will be a sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.…"

God and Jesus have given us their Word in a number of ways, and have self-limited their power. The are Perfect and will not break their Word.

We are given free will. We are not forced into Salvation or anything for that matter while here on earth. God did not make us to be robots. We are not puppets.

I heard some teaching and this issue came up. The teacher/preacher said he was confronted by a very angry man. Having Spiritual insight, the teacher/preacher said
If what you say is true, why does God not make you pay your tithes and offerings??? The guy shut up and walked off.

Obviously, because giving is voluntary. God does not make you give.

God gets the blame for everthing bad and horrible here on earth, when he gave Adam a lease-hold on the earth which Adam gave to satan. God still owns the earth and its contents, but the earth is a fallen world and the landlord is satan.
God honors that, because he will not break his Word.
Jesus redeemed the World, but the final enemy, physical death, is the only remaing enemy. The Promise of eternal life is the Ultimate response to physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:54 et seq

"Where, O Death, is Your Victory?
…54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law...57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!…"

lefty o

07-17-2019, 11:15 AM

Myth, real, or both?.... If both, where do YOU draw that line?
I’m always curious about people with a list of quotes to support their opinions on what it all means, but immediately resort to “that’s not real, but was written as a sort of example”, or “That’s just a story” when confronted with Biblical texts that are contrary to the point they are trying to make.

So if it’s part “myth” and part actual testimony, where do YOU draw the line?
Is Genesis just a story, or Exodus?... Is all of it true?

Can you pick and choose pieces of text from a single book that support your point of view while dismissing those that seem contradictory, and how do you justify the right to do so?

it is amazing those that believe the book is gods word, how some of them pick and choose what works for them and ignore the rest. parts that arent convenient, just ignore them. like i previously said, i think the bbok is written by man to influence man. it is used to teach right from wrong, ya know dont lie, dont cheat, dont steal, dont kill, yet even those few simple examples many who believe the book cant handle.

cainttype

07-17-2019, 11:45 AM

I repeated the OP simply to bring the conversation back to it’s intent, which was to have personal opinions on how much Biblical text each person felt was actual fact and whether (and how much) they thought was parable... It’s a question that I actually see regularly in real life, person-to-person, conversations.
For instance, I’ve heard many times that the story of The Tower of Babble is simply a parable warning man to avoid arrogance and to embrace humility... Others believe it is factual, but struggle with the idea that scattering people and confusing their tongues to create mistrust is a strange concept to try to align with their understanding of God, and his desires for mankind.

This thread’s intent is simply to allow participants to voice their opinion on how much of the text is factual and accurate in a “historical” sense.... It is not to compete with one another over who gets to climb highest on the soapbox (That sort of behavior often discourages good people from posting their views).

Black Jaque Janaviac

07-17-2019, 12:09 PM

What is meant by myth? Are myths true? When a modern atheist says "myth" they usually mean fairy tale.

But myth, as distinguished from pulp fiction, is symbolism that transends the mere narrative. In that meaning, the Bible is way more than mere history, it is mythological.

Traffer

07-17-2019, 12:09 PM

How can you believe the Bible but reserve the right to "edit" it with your own opinion? Doesn't that make it moot? What about this scripture:
" And we have the word of the prophets
made more certain, and you will do well
to pay attention to it, as to a light shining
in a dark place, until the day dawns and
the morning star rises in your hearts.
Above all, you must understand that
no prophecy of Scripture came about by
the prophet's own interpretation.
For prophecy never had its origin in
the will of man, but men spoke from God
as they were carried along by the Holy
Spirit."

jmort

07-17-2019, 12:19 PM

There are a few passages that support the totality
100% Right On Truth

Matthew 5:17 et seq

The Fulfillment of the Law
"17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…"

Revelation 22:18 et seq

Nothing May Be Added
"18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!…"

Deuteronomy 4:2

Deuteronomy 4:2 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

King James Bible
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Darby Bible Translation
Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall ye take from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.

World English Bible
You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish from it, that you may keep the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you.

Young's Literal Translation
Ye do not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor diminish from it, to keep the commands of Jehovah your God which I am commanding you.

Hickok

07-17-2019, 12:35 PM

For me, all of it is true
As soon as you start with a lack of faith in the Word of God
Your Bible gets smaller and smaller
Each person gets to decide how much Bible they put their faith in
100% to 0%
My Bible is 100%
For me, this book was a blessing and reaffirmed my Faith in the entire Bible

How We Got the Bible: Neil Lightfoot: 9780891121800: Amazon.com: Books
how we got the bible lightfoot from www.amazon.com
Travel through history, from Jerome to Tyndale and beyond, as Professor Lightfoot discusses the origin, transmission, and translation of the Bible. ... Concise and engaging, How We Got the Bible is a useful resource for anyone who wants to know the story behind the most widely read book of all time.I stand with you brother in complete agreement.

Arkansas Paul

07-17-2019, 12:38 PM

I typically stay out of discussions in the Chapel, because every time someone expresses unbelief in a thread they are basically told that they have no business in the Chapel.
They are nearly immediately called trolls and it is made crystal clear they are not welcome.
And I get the point that the Chapel is for believers who want to discuss theological matters without complete unbelievers trying to start discussions on whether or not any of it is real. I get that and even agree.

But the very point of this post is to see what people believe, so I will chime in and if you want to call me a troll for answering a question, that's fine.

I'll start by saying that I really don't know what I believe these days as far as the existence of a God, but I certainly don't believe everything in the Bible.
I'm sure it has certain things that are historically accurate. But I don't believe it is all 100% truth.

I was raised my entire life in a very strict brand of evangelical Christianity (Pentecostals) who believe every word literally.

They believed they could lay hands on the sick an they would be healed. I heard this nearly every Sunday, yet it never happened. For nearly 30 years I went to church every time the doors were open and it never happened once.

I certainly don't believe in a worldwide flood that wiped out humanity. I believe there was a large flood (in fact there is record of one) in their region in those times, and the world as they knew it may have flooded.
I don't believe the human race was started by an incestuous couple.............twice.

Bottom line, I will believe anything, for which there is evidence.
However, the more outlandish the claim, the stronger the evidence has to be.

EDG

07-17-2019, 12:46 PM

wv109323

07-17-2019, 01:05 PM

In 2 Peter chapter 1, Peter claims the following. They were eye witnesses to what they wrote and claims what they wrote was not "cunningly devised fables". He also claims that they wrote under "the inspiration of the Holy Spirit". So I believe that the original manuscripts are directly from God and 100% accurate. God is perfect but man is fallible.
With that "man "may not have perfectly preserved and translated the original manuscripts. I understand man is not perfect so I don't think he could be perfect even with the Word. I have researched this area and found nothing that changes any meaning of the Bible.
As far as believing, I know God works outside of mans laws of time ,space and matter. He is capable of doing everything recorded in the Bible. We may not be able to understand his ways and power in our fallible minds.

Traffer

07-17-2019, 01:09 PM

When the sun turns into a red giant the earth will be burned to a crisp and there will be no more humans.
If all humans become extinct what is the reason for god to exist? The rest of the universe will go on without us.

That is funny. There is no God but there is a bogey man invented by "scientists". The inerrant and perfect word of God says this "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..."
Would you believe in stray comets hitting the earth or the lame theory of human caused carbon dioxide induced climate change, if you had any fear of God? Answer ....NOPE
You would instead have the beginnings of Wisdom. (I don't mean you personally, I am speaking to the lack of belief here).
And did you know that the story of Chicken Little "the sky is falling (or warming)" was written as a parable to instruct children to not follow the foolish doom sayers who have absolutely no wisdom? YUP. But most of the people on this planet now believe this nonsense. WHY? NO FEAR OF GOD, that's why.
I tell my cowering friends who lay awake at night worrying about global warming this:
Yes there is good cause to fear climate warming disaster. BUT it isn't necessarily going to be a slow warming...instead it will be Sudden Onset Global Heat Event! It is predicted here: in 2 Peter chapter 3
"But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

Snow ninja

07-17-2019, 04:50 PM

When the sun turns into a red giant the earth will be burned to a crisp and there will be no more humans.
If all humans become extinct what is the reason for god to exist?
I think God exists because man needed to explain things. Look at any "religion" from history. The Vikings had their Gods to explain why there was thunder and such. When you think about it, a "Bible" containing all of their stories and histories would be just as outlandish as some of the claims in the Christian one. What makes one more right than the other? Other than one person's faith in it.

Arkansas Paul

07-17-2019, 05:26 PM

What makes one more right than the other? Other than one person's faith in it.

And what makes one have faith in one, instead of another?
Answer: Geography
What "holy" book you believe in is decided largely by where on the planet you were born.

I know there are exceptions, and this isn't true 100% of the time, but for the most part, it depends on location.
If you were born in India, you would likely be Hindu.
If you were born in Pakistan or Iran you would most likely be Muslim (even if you weren't you'd darn sure say you were, or you'd be killed).
But we were born here, so most believe in Christianity.

How lucky that we just so happened to be born in the right country and are exposed to the right "holy" book.

jmort

07-17-2019, 05:42 PM

While I have never been hardcore on pre-destination, the sinner persons have now convinced me. Which brings me full-circle back to the opinion that unless this sub-forum is used to build-up, edify, and exhort The Saints, we are just throwing pearls to the swine. This sub-forum was intended as a non-denominational place for Christians to fellowship.

Proverbs 9:8
"Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you."

Matthew 7:6

King James Bible
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Good luck with this hot mess. Last time I ever engage outside what this sub-forum should be discussing.

Matthew 10:14,15
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet…"

Arkansas Paul

07-17-2019, 06:58 PM

While I have never been hardcore on pre-destination, the sinner persons have now convinced me. Which brings me full-circle back to the opinion that unless this sub-forum is used to build-up, edify, and exhort The Saints, we are just throwing pearls to the swine. This sub-forum was intended as a non-denominational place for Christians to fellowship.

This is why I said in my very first post that I usually stay out of this part. I get it. If I was in a forum about Chevrolet trucks, I wouldn't like it if Ford guys trolled the forum with their "Chevy sucks" posts. You know people are out there that think that, but that's not the point of the discussion.

I only joined in because that's the entire point of this thread.

I do like that you at least call us pigs up front though. At least you're honest. Thank you for that.
For what it's worth, I don't think you're a pig. You're probably a nice enough guy for the most part.

Snow ninja

07-17-2019, 07:08 PM

While I have never been hardcore on pre-destination, the sinner persons have now convinced me. Which brings me full-circle back to the opinion that unless this sub-forum is used to build-up, edify, and exhort The Saints, we are just throwing pearls to the swine. This sub-forum was intended as a non-denominational place for Christians to fellowship.

Good luck with this hot mess. Last time I ever engage outside what this sub-forum should be discussing. It also says:
2 Timothy 4:2

Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching

1 Peter 3:15

But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect

The only thing I've learned here, is that if you have a genuine question in your faith, you better not bring it here.

lefty o

07-17-2019, 07:16 PM

RED BEAR

07-17-2019, 10:16 PM

It's very simple as i see it. You believe or you don't. If you need something to justify your belief then your wasting your time.

CrystalShip

07-17-2019, 10:46 PM

If it Gives anyone Comfort to Believe then Believe. If you do not Believe and it gives you Comfort not to . Then do not. everyones opinion is not Important except Yours.
I make no assumption and respects all individual opinion

Traffer

07-17-2019, 11:05 PM

This is why I said in my very first post that I usually stay out of this part. I get it. If I was in a forum about Chevrolet trucks, I wouldn't like it if Ford guys trolled the forum with their "Chevy sucks" posts. You know people are out there that think that, but that's not the point of the discussion.

I only joined in because that's the entire point of this thread.

I do like that you at least call us pigs up front though. At least you're honest. Thank you for that.
For what it's worth, I don't think you're a pig. You're probably a nice enough guy for the most part.
I think that is what they call a "left handed compliment". Words said like a compliment that are actually condemnation. When I read this I thought "pigs?" who is calling people pigs. Then I read the reference and realized it is the old liberal trick of twisting the original content to make it sound evil. All I can say is "nice try."

Arkansas Paul

07-17-2019, 11:41 PM

I think that is what they call a "left handed compliment". Words said like a compliment that are actually condemnation. When I read this I thought "pigs?" who is calling people pigs. Then I read the reference and realized it is the old liberal trick of twisting the original content to make it sound evil. All I can say is "nice try."

In what language does the word "swine" mean anything other than pigs?
He said that having a mere conversation with people who don't believe like him is casting his pearls before swine.
I didn't say it friend, I just pointed it out.
He referenced all who did not believe like him as swine.

I'm far from a liberal, and there was no trick. I twisted nothing.

As far as the compliment, believe it or not, while I admit it was a little intentionally snarky, I meant it.
I live in the south, right in the middle of the Bible belt. It isn't easy believing like I do where I live. But they won't say anything to your face. I would much rather someone tell me what they think up front.

Traffer

07-18-2019, 12:57 AM

In what language does the word "swine" mean anything other than pigs?
He said that having a mere conversation with people who don't believe like him is casting his pearls before swine.
I didn't say it friend, I just pointed it out.
He referenced all who did not believe like him as swine.

I'm far from a liberal, and there was no trick. I twisted nothing.

As far as the compliment, believe it or not, while I admit it was a little intentionally snarky, I meant it.
I live in the south, right in the middle of the Bible belt. It isn't easy believing like I do where I live. But they won't say anything to your face. I would much rather someone tell me what they think up front.

The passage "Do not cast your pearls before swine" has been debated ad infinitum.
When you look at in context it is puzzling. The best interpretation I can come up with is "do not give what is precious in God's sight to YOUR OWN sinful nature."
I can understand your disdain for the hypocrisy of many who are steeped in religion. It is a common pitfall for people who inject sinful pride into their religeous experience. A very sad thing indeed. Jesus said something about people giving HIM a bad name who do not practice what he actually taught. I have never been in the South. Lived in Wisconsin and Massachusetts. I live where there is a lot of backlash against the religious practices that are still prevalent in the South. The evil slanderous judging is just as bad on both sides. It is not because of Jesus or his teaching. It is due to the sinful nature. And that is well explained by him in especially the sermon on the mount. When wickedness is in a persons heart, whether they are a churchgoer or a communist, it will be ugly. But the bottom line is that God is good. If you seek him and not let people hinder you, you may find His refuge and joy. That is priceless and I hope it for you.

Arkansas Paul

07-18-2019, 01:10 AM

The evil slanderous judging is just as bad on both sides. It is not because of Jesus or his teaching.

Agreed.
Some of the best people I know are very religious. Some of the worst as well, but that's just because I know a lot of religious people.
People are people. Most are good enough folks, and some aren't worth the gunpowder it would take to blow their hat off.
It matters not whether they are religious, atheist, or something in between. At the end of the day, belief systems are made up of people.

I don't blame religion for that.

abunaitoo

07-18-2019, 01:48 AM

I have learned, from the past, that religion, is a subject that is better NOT discussed among friends.

pmer

07-18-2019, 07:57 AM

I am curious. Your disbelief of the six "24 hour" days is for what reason(s)? Do you believe there are limits to God's power or do you just have a problem with the time units? Do you think it is possible that a day at the time of earth's creation was possibly a substantially different duration (all other things being constant) than today? Do you think it is possible/probable that each of those six days had a different duration as compared to today's day? "Bonus" question: Why do you think God revealed His creation to us in this manner?

I'd be a liar if I told you that I haven't wrestled with these same questions at times in my life, given my analytical mind.

I have had similar doubts as well. When I look back in my growth in faith I was using those moments to keep God at a distance from my heart. Not being all that sure what was right for me or thinking what are my friends going to think etc. I think it was my natural self or my sin nature trying to make a final stand against what the other part of myself knew what was right.
This "battle" can take many forms because we all different. Because thinkers think, analyzers analyze and worriers worry. What's important at this point is God has you marked already, Satan doesn't want to another lose another one. People like this are on the fence not sure about what they might think is a commitment. They might even be several steps into their becoming a Christian.

Doubt, fear our own intelligence working against us can all be used to keep any of us from doing the right thing. Not just accepting God but other things in life too.

I had all of this bouncing around in my mind then I had a born again experience. Since then (spiritually) I've been pruned, challenged, felt not alone in prayer both for good and bad, and went back in my life to try and make things right. At many steps what I thought was correct wasn't. I was growing mentally and spiritually at the guidance of God. At this point faith isn't a question for me but I understand it is for many.

If your wrestling with faith don't stop, keep asking questions, reading the bible. It's not the easy choice but you won't disappointed.

Thundarstick

07-18-2019, 08:04 AM

To the OP, I believe the Bible is a true accounting, inspired of God through men.

I have friends who are not of the same beliefs as I and we discuss religion, Bible, and beliefs all the time. The only time problems arise is when I, or they, have to win a point. We may not see eye to eye, but we're looking in the same direction. I don't cast pearls twards the openly contemptuous, where we will both be wasting our time and breath, ( we aren't even looking in the same direction), but I do seek to be kind and respectful (treating others as I wish to be treated), and expect the same. In the end it's about faith, however, it's my contention that it takes the same amount of faith to believe in many things that are taught as settled science, as to believe the Bible.

PowPow

07-18-2019, 09:46 AM

...

I had all of this bouncing around in my mind then I had a born again experience. Since then (spiritually) I've been pruned, challenged, felt not alone in prayer both for good and bad, and went back in my life to try and make things right. At many steps what I thought was correct wasn't. I was growing mentally and spiritually at the guidance of God. At this point faith isn't a question for me but I understand it is for many.

If your wrestling with faith don't stop, keep asking questions, reading the bible. It's not the easy choice but you won't disappointed.

Wow, that pretty well describes my spiritual journey, but I also had help of many other Christians in my life either at work or my church.

By the way, I failed to weigh in directly on the topic of this thread.

I believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. If that leaves any room for doubt, I'll add that I believe 100% of it is true. I believe that in the beginning God created all things visible and not visible in 6 days. I believe He revealed His creation to us in this way, because that is how He did it. I believe that God is holy, all powerful, infinite, immutable, and abundant in grace, mercy, and love. I will incorporate The Westminster Confession of Faith (https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/) to describe the rest of my beliefs rather than state them here.

scattershot

07-18-2019, 10:09 AM

Myth and superstition, based somewhat on real events. The creation story was made up of whole cloth.

1hole

07-18-2019, 10:17 AM

....So if it’s part “myth” and part actual testimony, where do YOU draw the line?
Is Genesis just a story, or Exodus?... Is all of it true?

Can you pick and choose pieces of text from a single book that support your point of view while dismissing those that seem contradictory, and how do you justify the right to do so?

We can pick and choose ... but we do it at our peril.

You raise questions no one can know so each of us must decide if we wish to follow the Bible or reject it. I know no more than anyone else about the six days of creation but I choose to accept it as true. Thing is, that and several other accounts have no impact on the core truths and purpose of the Bible; i.e., presenting Jesus as Lord.

I do have one question for those who have chosen to hold blind faith in scientists rather than Christ.

Consider, if space aliens had landed on earth on the morning of the seventh day and looked out how would earth have appeared? Would rushing mountain streams not been cutting through rocky bottoms between obviously "old" tree lined banks, would not the trees not have had old growth rings? Etc.

I'm a Bible believer. It seems more reasonable to me to accept its accounts as stated than to assume creation burst from a marble sized ball hanging in empty space and everything else just happened to work its way to today. THAT taxes my sense of reason much more than does the Bible.

Bottom line; if I'm wrong, I've lost nothing meaningful but if those who reject scripture are wrong they have lost everything meaningful!

Arkansas Paul

07-18-2019, 10:39 AM

I'm a Bible believer. It seems more reasonable to me to accept its accounts as stated than to assume creation burst from a marble sized ball hanging in empty space and everything else just happened to work its way to today. THAT taxes my sense of reason much more than does the Bible.

I have a question for you, and other believers as well, and I think it is in the spirit of this thread.

The Catholic church is a little more open minded to science than many other denominations, in fact it was a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, who was one of the first to theorize that the Universe was expanding (giving rise to the big bang theory), a prediction that was confirmed by the Hubble telescope.

My point is that a lot of people can reconcile religion and science. If indeed the Genesis account of creation is accurate, which I know most here believe to be true, and God spoke the universe into existence, then something came from nothing, in this case from God's spoken word.
If God spoke and all of the matter in the universe appeared where none was before, is it possible that the event did in fact mimic a big bang? Could the aftermath that we can observe via modern telescopes look like that?

A lot of people believe in intelligent design, meaning they believe in science, they just believe that is the way God did it.

Galileo was a scientist and a Catholic and he is famously quoted as saying, "The Bible tells us how to go to heaven. It doesn't tell us how the heavens go."
He was a believer in Christ and salvation through him, he just didn't view the Bible as a science textbook.

So, can you reconcile the two? Or do you all view it as believing one or the other?

jmort

07-18-2019, 10:43 AM

www.reasons.org

jmort

07-18-2019, 11:38 AM

Come to The Chapel that unbelievers disdain
A place for Christians to fellowship and not be like Cain
The unbelievers drop by and spit on the Saints
They even deny that God really exists
They tell us the Bible is all just a lie
They tell us that Jesus never rose and is alive
But quote the Bible, after all it's just a "myth"
And their heads explode as if it were no myth
The irony is thick as they say the Bible false
But quote the Bible and then they cry like a (female dog)
Now that is rich
Their panties get twisted, their knickers do knot
They disrespect everything Holy and Sacred, and why not?
If God, The Son, and the Holy Ghost do not exist
Why not feign that verbatim quotes from the Bible should cease and desist
So the self-righteous deniers who do not believe are now the victims
And sorely aggrieved

Arkansas Paul

07-18-2019, 12:03 PM

Come to The Chapel that unbelievers disdain

I don't disdain the chapel. I enjoy civil conversations about this topic.
I am only in this thread because its purpose was to get different opinions on whether the Bible is true.
I usually steer clear because I know that dissenting opinions are not generally welcome by a few people.

The unbelievers drop by and spit on the Saints

I spit on no one.
I have said a couple of times in this thread that the vast majority of religious people I know are wonderful people.
Don't confuse disagreement with persecution.
I try, and admittedly sometimes fail, to attack ideas and not people. If you perceive an attack on you personally, I certainly have not intended that and apologize for it coming across that way.
I do not apologize for attacking ideas. Ideas are not immune to questions and even ridicule.
If your faith can move mountains, it should be able to withstand a little criticism.

They even deny that God really exists

I don't deny it.
But I certainly question it.

And their heads explode as if it were no myth

Their panties get twisted, their knickers do knot

My head is perfectly intact and my knickers are non-knotted.
I have not gotten angry or even irritated (okay, being compared to swine irritated me a little, but I'm a big boy, I can handle it).
You are the only one in this entire thread who has shown any animosity at all. You are posting on a thread that invited we swine into the conversation, and you're mad I guess because the thread exists at all. You are the only one angry here.

Why not feign that verbatim quotes from the Bible should cease and desist

I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I even thanked you for saying exactly what you thought.
And I meant it.

But quote the Bible and then they cry like a (female dog)

I don't think that one is verbatim from the Bible. I'm pretty sure you came up with that one on your own.
Thanks, brother. That's super Christian of you.

So the self-righteous deniers who do not believe are now the victims

I'm not a victim. Never claimed to be one.
I think that disagreement is good if done respectfully to one another. I do not feel victimized because you and I disagree. It seems as though you do.

Good luck with this hot mess. Last time I ever engage outside what this sub-forum should be discussing.

I guess it wasn't the last time after all.

Arkansas Paul

07-18-2019, 12:14 PM

Come to The Chapel that unbelievers disdain
A place for Christians to fellowship and not be like Cain

One more quick question if you care to answer.
Is this your philosophy at your church that you attend?
Or just here in this forum?

I sincerely hope it is not your philosophy at your church. That would kind of defeat the purpose.

T_McD

07-18-2019, 12:21 PM

cainttype

07-18-2019, 12:48 PM

The following is a reply to a note I received from a member here with good intentions... I thought I’d add it here because it belongs in the conversation, from my point of view...

“I started the thread to give everyone a chance to express their views openly and honestly, hoping it could be done with civility so that participants might consider “why” others might think the way they do.
I think misunderstandings often cloud the narrow-minded views of many, where my view of practicing Christianity dictates patience, consideration, a willingness to offer testimony (including explanations of why we hold those beliefs), and a willingness to encourage open discussions so that we might better understand those that have different opinions.
For instance, I see no issue whether you think Genesis is historical fact or parable... Jesus often used parable to teach, so why would God not use parable to teach in the Old Testament?... Both uses would be considered the word of God, right?

My views might be viewed as wrong initially, but it’s possible that with patient consideration a person might not see them so outlandish, and certainly not disrespectful.

If we do not welcome those that have questions, those that have doubts, to openly discuss them we preach only to the limited population we CHOOSE to acknowledge as intelligent creatures God created with free will... That is not my interpretation of Christian practice.

I wish you well, and hope that maybe I make a little sense to you. I’ve not found my opinions by accident, and they might not be right, but encouraging the discussion seems to me to be the way to reach across what is often unnecessary hurdles to polite conversation.

“Wherever two, or more...”, right?”

Arkansas Paul

07-18-2019, 02:11 PM

^^^ That is a wonderful way to look at it.

Even though we may not agree on several things, there is nothing wrong with respectful discussion.

Remember Jefferson's words:
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.

Even internet friends I will never meet in person.

T_McD

07-18-2019, 02:44 PM

bmortell

07-18-2019, 03:24 PM

Ive thought that if it is all real why would it be a test of inclusion and not exclusion, setting up all these cults where you have to swear loyalty and believe a list of things based on faith sounds like work of the devil. And its supposed to be your job as a rational adult to not fall for it and follow logic and evidence and most importantly update your model when its wrong.

1hole

07-18-2019, 07:20 PM

I have a question for you, and other believers as well, and I think it is in the spirit of this thread.

The Catholic church is a little more open minded to science than many other denominations, in fact it was a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, who was one of the first to theorize that the Universe was expanding (giving rise to the big bang theory), a prediction that was confirmed by the Hubble telescope.
Galileo was an Italian scientist but the Roman church was NOT open to his findings. In fact the Church forced him to publicly recant his findings or be burned at the stake! He was a Roman Catholic by default, not choice. He lived in the late 1,500s when the Reformation was young and still virtually powerless. No other churches were tolerated in Italy at the time and it remains much the same today, minus the penalty of death.

My point is that a lot of people can reconcile religion and science. If indeed the Genesis account of creation is accurate, which I know most here believe to be true, and God spoke the universe into existence, then something came from nothing, in this case from God's spoken word.I suppose we all have reconciled science and our faith to some degree. I mean we live peacefully in the same neighborhoods with everyone and, unlike Islam, no one in the Christian world beats or beheads those who hold different beliefs.

If God spoke and all of the matter in the universe appeared where none was before, is it possible that the event did in fact mimic a big bang?It's certainly possible but it seems unlikely.

Scientists claim to have detected a tiny echo of the supposed Big Bang .... but the "echo" they found is supposed to be a super small temperature difference from fantastically far away!

In order for the Big Bang to be true the measured rate of expansion of the universe would have to be slowing; it isn't, it's actually accelerating. So, the Big Bang theory blows itself up!

Thing is, science doesn't lie but scientists wanting more research money do. Follow the money, scientists aren't above manipulating data to support what they desperately want to be true (see: "man made global warming"). I simply don't believe science has tools that can resolve such a small temperature difference as they claim to have detected from so far away and so long ago; I'm gullible but I'm not THAT gullible!

Could the aftermath that we can observe via modern telescopes look like that? Maybe. But I sure don't think so.

A lot of people believe in intelligent design, meaning they believe in science, they just believe that is the way God did it. I used to believe that but I finally had to reject "guided evolution" because it raises more knotty questions in my mind than it answers. I just can't swallow a camel while straining a gnat

Galileo ... was a believer in Christ and salvation through him, he just didn't view the Bible as a science textbook.

So, can you reconcile the two? Or do you all view it as believing one or the other? The Bible isn't a science book BUT there is a lot of science in it.

Surely all of us believe in science when it's real science. But science books of beginnings require much more faith in scientist's dreams than they deserve. Real science requires theories that can be tested and duplicated to be proven science and that simply cannot be done for beginnings.

In real science, wild-*** guesses don't count. Thus, those scientists who voice emphatic certainties of beginnings immediately reduce their lofty arguments to asking us for blind "religious" faith in themselves because they lack the necessary hard evidence for it to be science.

T_McD

07-18-2019, 10:26 PM

Surely all of us believe in science when it's real science. But science books of beginnings require much more faith in scientist's dreams than they deserve. Real science requires theories that can be tested and duplicated to be proven science and that simply cannot be done for beginnings.

In real science, wild-*** guesses don't count. Thus, those scientists who voice emphatic certainties of beginnings immediately reduce their lofty arguments to asking us for blind "religious" faith in themselves because they lack the necessary hard evidence for it to be science.

My sentiments exactly. I often wonder why more people cannot seem to accept an “Who knows?” answer to the origin of life. I taught high school biology and the topic was always a popular one, but the honest truth is we just don’t know how life started (so that’s what I told them).

If we knew for certain, then we would simply shift our pondering to how whatever made us was created. In the search to know the unknowable, the answer always creates more questions.

Traffer

07-18-2019, 11:58 PM

My sentiments exactly. I often wonder why more people cannot seem to accept an “Who knows?” answer to the origin of life. I taught high school biology and the topic was always a popular one, but the honest truth is we just don’t know how life started (so that’s what I told them).

If we knew for certain, then we would simply shift our pondering to how whatever made us was created. In the search to know the unknowable, the answer always creates more questions.

My money is on "God knows."
:bigsmyl2:

dtknowles

07-19-2019, 09:32 PM

Myth, real, or both?.... If both, where do YOU draw that line?
I’m always curious about people with a list of quotes to support their opinions on what it all means, but immediately resort to “that’s not real, but was written as a sort of example”, or “That’s just a story” when confronted with Biblical texts that are contrary to the point they are trying to make.

So if it’s part “myth” and part actual testimony, where do YOU draw the line?
Is Genesis just a story, or Exodus?... Is all of it true?

Can you pick and choose pieces of text from a single book that support your point of view while dismissing those that seem contradictory, and how do you justify the right to do so?

Don't forget that the bible is not one book or even two books it is an anthology of the writings and oral history spanning millennia. They weren't collected into one book until only about 1700 years ago.

Some might be historically accurate, some might be tall tales, myths you might say. Some of the new testament is eye witness testimony a lot of the Bible is parables. Lessons to be taught written to be discussed not to be accepted as fact.

Tim

exile

07-23-2019, 05:10 PM

"By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
and by the breath of his mouth all their host."

Psalm 33:6 (E.S.V.)

sniper

07-27-2019, 09:07 PM

I believe the Bible to be the word of God, insofar as it has been translated correctly.
Despite many translations and reinterpretations, The Bible of whatever version you may choose, as currently translated is not a "Sweet fairy tale", as one of my girlfriends stated when I was in College.
The messages of the Bible seems to be: Old Testament... some small information about our first parents, removal of the Children of Israel from Egypt, and most importantly, Prophecies of the birth and mission of our Savior. New Testament...Testimony of Jesus' divine nature as the literal Son of God, his teachings, death and Resurrection and the actions of the men He called as Apostles following His Resurrection.

What we have is a bare minimum of the prophecies concerning Jesus, and documentation of His ministry on earth. There is bound to be more, somewhere, and despite the "warnings" in Deuteronomy and Revelations, there can and will be more information received from God for the teaching, guidance and and edification of HIS children. HE loves us now as much as he did in the "olden days".

I don't know HOW it happened or how long it took for the creation to be concluded, nor do I attempt to explain the miracles of the Bible, but I accept the reality of them.

Blackwater

08-05-2019, 09:36 PM

I personally believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, given to us by His decree. I believe it is more than accurate enough for all but the most learned and picky of theologians. Words often have more than one meaning, and why the King James crew who were assigned to interpret it from the originals, chose one meaning over the other is sometimes in question, that's about all the "error" in the book - again, in my view. I didn't always believe this, but I do now. I had to await some revelations that made me realize just how accurate it really is. After a few revelations, it all makes complete and utter sense. Doubters will guffaw at these statements, but they're true.

And the most modern science of today has consistently proven that all the doubters' claims of falsity in the Bible, are falsities themselves! But the profane and unbelieving will ignore that as though it doesn't exist. And the media don't cover such matters. But that doesn't undo what modern science has done for belief. They can even give a good explanation of how the physical body of Christ could walk through the door and walls of the upper room after the crucifixion, to see his disciples. Again, the profane don't want to hear about any of that, for it opposes their ideas and unbelief. So be it. Men have, for 2,000 years and more, decided to believe what they wanted to, rather than what the real evidence shows. They have their stories concocted, and they don't want to change them. But isn't that how non-believers believe they HAVE to behave? Lest their stories fall apart, and crumble away before their very eyes? Belief in nothing is not a belief. It's a doubt. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, my savior, my redeemer, my Lord, and my best friend. Others may believe whatever they want. CHrist and I will walk to the end of my life together, and He will help me over to the other side, and I will dwell with Him in Heaven forever more, and will wonder why I ever held onto living in this world so tightly.

The 3 big questions of everyone's life are:

1. Who am I?
2. Where did I come from?
and
3. Why am I here?

The atheist scoffs at these questions, and says "Eat, drink and make merry, for tomorrow we may die." And he forgets that these questions really DO have answers to them, IF we simply apply our attention and mind and heart to them.

1. We are children of God, and we were put here for a purpose, that God will reveal to us if we follow His principles here.

2. We came from His Love. He was lonely and wanted plenty of company, so he made us, and put us here. He will never forsake us, but if we want, we can forsake Him. We are imperfect. He is perfect, and cannot do other than what He is, which is Love.

3. We are here because it pleased Him to create us, and put all the world and universe in motion. He endowed our world with everything we'd ever need, if we use it properly and study all that He gave us. We get medicines from all sorts of plants and animals, to cure us when we ail. We are supposed to take what we've been given in this world, and convert it to our most profitable uses. And we're supposed to regularly take a break, and worship Him for endowing us with such great abundance. Not all places on earth have so many wondrous and needed provisions as we do in North America. We are most richly blessed. And we're here to appreciate these things, and enjoy them, and be thankful for them.

That's the gist of it all, really. You believe what you wish. This is my view of it all.

Rizzo

08-06-2019, 01:06 PM

................

The 3 big questions of everyone's life are:

1. Who am I?
2. Where did I come from?
and
3. Why am I here?

1. We are children of God, and we were put here for a purpose, that God will reveal to us if we follow His principles here.

2. We came from His Love. He was lonely and wanted plenty of company, so he made us, and put us here. He will never forsake us, but if we want, we can forsake Him. We are imperfect. He is perfect, and cannot do other than what He is, which is Love.

3. We are here because it pleased Him to create us, and put all the world and universe in motion. He endowed our world with everything we'd ever need, if we use it properly and study all that He gave us. We get medicines from all sorts of plants and animals, to cure us when we ail. We are supposed to take what we've been given in this world, and convert it to our most profitable uses. And we're supposed to regularly take a break, and worship Him for endowing us with such great abundance. Not all places on earth have so many wondrous and needed provisions as we do in North America. We are most richly blessed. And we're here to appreciate these things, and enjoy them, and be thankful for them.

Yes, the three big questions.
However, I have a different "view" on those questions.

1.You state we are here for a purpose and God will reveal that purpose to us.
I think that a lot of adult folks who believe in God are still waiting and waiting for that answer.
Logic tells us that we are "here", so there must be a reason why we are here.
The answer sort of dove-tails into your view on question #2.

2."He was lonely and wanted plenty of company, so he made us, and put us here"
I have read that "view" before but what comes to mind is that our perfect God was lonely?
That sounds like an earthly, materialistic emotion that does not equate to a perfect Spiritual Being.
To some, it will satisfy the question but if you think about it, does that make sense?
To me, it does not make sense.
You also stated "...He will never forsake us...."
Yet, you have stated elsewhere that He will send some of us to hell for eternity.

3. "We are here because it pleased Him to create us........."
This is similar to your view in #2.
Once again, your view suggests that God has material desires. Desire to not be lonely. Desire to create a materialistic environment for us to "enjoy".

We are eternal spiritual beings. When our material body dies, our Spirit continues to "live".....for eternity. We are images of God.

No disrespect to you Blackwater on your views.
The mysteries of life won't be known until we are on a higher spiritual "plane".
Until then, all we have is the books that we read to try and get a better understanding on why God put us on this earth, rather than being with Him in heaven instead.

T_McD

08-06-2019, 04:57 PM

Yesssss! You have hit a nerve with me. How can we define an all powerful heavenly being with human understanding? My premise is we cannot. If we can’t define it, how can you claim to identify the correct “version” of god?

Blackwater

08-06-2019, 06:41 PM

Couple of thoughts:

1) All religions are faith based. Faith to me is belief in spite of insufficient evidence. It is a misguided enterprise to conflate faith with facts.

2) these threads are a great example of why their are so many religions and so many sunsets of each. People gravitate towards what suits them.

3) People don’t truly believe in believe in an Almighty God with a day of Judgement. If they did, they would toe the line and behave. Much like I obeyed my Parents because I truly believed they controlled my life (they did for a while).

4) religion serves as a useful philosophical tool. It is not suitable for everyday decision making.

1. I'd have to disagree with you here. Faith is NOT belief in spite of "insufficient evidence." It is belief with evidence that comes right up to "proof," but not quite the whole thing. It is belief based on past positive experience that indicates that even though we may not fully understand, it is nevertheless true. It is most definitely NOT belief without facts or reason. We who believe have many, many reasons to have faith in the things that we are told, but fail to understand sufficiently to "know" conclusively that they're true. But we believe them anyway. And the curious thing is, the more we study and discuss, the more we come to understand, and occasionally, we have an epiphany or a revelation that seems to come all by its own self, and come to finally understand things that before, had mystified and been opaque to us. This is the fruit of complying with Christ's admonition to "study to show thyself approved." Only when we've sincerely, diligently and humbly studied, and kept our minds open, can we truly understand some of the more obscure teachings of Christ. Even the newcomer can glean quite enough to sustain them for a while, and carry them to Heaven, but there will always be a benefit of long life, and constant and persistent study and observation. This isn't a huge difference between us, but it's enough to warrant a little clarification. And as to faith being equated with "facts," they ARE facts to believers, but will and can never be equated with "facts" with unbelievers, because faith requires a substance that unbelievers simply cannot possess. And that's conviction, and experience that constantly supports our faith. Have you ever seen a miracle? I have. PM me and I'll tell you about it if you wish. But it's a given that the profane will NEVER accept anything to do with faith as a "fact," just as you state. So what does that make the price of beans in Idaho????

2. You make a significant point here, and you're a good student of typical human behavior. But let us never forget that what we're talking about here, is human behavior, and NOT the Bible's influence on them.

3. SOME people believe as you describe, but they can't really be called "Christians." They're just pretenders, most likely who join a church for the purpose of social interactions or other considerations. So please, let's not really deal with them as if they were real, true Christians.

4. Yeah, it IS a good philosophical tool, but it's so very much more than that when it comes to Christianity. As to its not being suitable for "everyday decision making," that couldn't be further from the truth. First you describe the obvious difference between "faith and facts," and then you demean faith in following statements, and now, you minimize its effect and benefit to all of us by relegating it to a simple "tool" that we use to "control the masses." That is such a limited view, it really can't be dealt with on a forum like this due to a lack of space to really get into the depths of this matter. But everyone has to have something to believe in. I'm not sure what your "thing" is, but so be it. And God be with you, my friend.

Blackwater

08-06-2019, 07:15 PM

I think God exists because man needed to explain things. Look at any "religion" from history. The Vikings had their Gods to explain why there was thunder and such. When you think about it, a "Bible" containing all of their stories and histories would be just as outlandish as some of the claims in the Christian one. What makes one more right than the other? Other than one person's faith in it.

Yes indeed, since his rising from the primordial ooze, man has indeed looked up at the night sky in awe and wonder, and somehow, something within him KNEW that there was a real and supremely powerful God in those heavens. But it was MUCH more than just "a need to explain things" that drew those old humans toward belief in God. Glossing over all the things that man is capable of, and stating man found belief only in an effort to "explain things," is a mere carricature of mankind, and an obvious omitting of all the things that make us human. Let's stick to the facts if we're to discuss this very important and crucial issue, OK?

And as to the stories in the Bible being "outlandish," it may seem that way to you, but then, you've never really sought to find belief or faith, so it's only natural that one so disinclined to really make an earnest search, hasn't found it. But you do not have the authority to declare the Bible's stories "outlandish," and you'll never have that authority. But you do it anyway, which shows you to be a malcontent that would probably complain about ice cream not being good enough for you. So be it if that's what you choose. You have the right to choose anything you want to. But you'll NEVER have the right to declare anything regarding faith as being anything but what it simply is. Maybe it's fun disparaging Christians and their faith and beliefs. I can't see it. I believe it's a fool's errand, but obviously, you disagree. Again, so be it. God gave you the right to accept or deny Him, and no man here or anywhere has the right to make your decisions for you. But remember, you also have the responsibility to get it right, because we only have one life in this world, and afterward, the judgment or whatever you wish to imagine comes next. God be with you my friend. You need Him more than you can presently know.

T_McD

08-06-2019, 07:18 PM

1. I'd have to disagree with you here. Faith is NOT belief in spite of "insufficient evidence." It is belief with evidence that comes right up to "proof," but not quite the whole thing. It is belief based on past positive experience that indicates that even though we may not fully understand, it is nevertheless true. It is most definitely NOT belief without facts or reason. We who believe have many, many reasons to have faith in the things that we are told, but fail to understand sufficiently to "know" conclusively that they're true. But we believe them anyway. And the curious thing is, the more we study and discuss, the more we come to understand, and occasionally, we have an epiphany or a revelation that seems to come all by its own self, and come to finally understand things that before, had mystified and been opaque to us. This is the fruit of complying with Christ's admonition to "study to show thyself approved." Only when we've sincerely, diligently and humbly studied, and kept our minds open, can we truly understand some of the more obscure teachings of Christ. Even the newcomer can glean quite enough to sustain them for a while, and carry them to Heaven, but there will always be a benefit of long life, and constant and persistent study and observation. This isn't a huge difference between us, but it's enough to warrant a little clarification. And as to faith being equated with "facts," they ARE facts to believers, but will and can never be equated with "facts" with unbelievers, because faith requires a substance that unbelievers simply cannot possess. And that's conviction, and experience that constantly supports our faith. Have you ever seen a miracle? I have. PM me and I'll tell you about it if you wish. But it's a given that the profane will NEVER accept anything to do with faith as a "fact," just as you state. So what does that make the price of beans in Idaho????

2. You make a significant point here, and you're a good student of typical human behavior. But let us never forget that what we're talking about here, is human behavior, and NOT the Bible's influence on them.

3. SOME people believe as you describe, but they can't really be called "Christians." They're just pretenders, most likely who join a church for the purpose of social interactions or other considerations. So please, let's not really deal with them as if they were real, true Christians.

4. Yeah, it IS a good philosophical tool, but it's so very much more than that when it comes to Christianity. As to its not being suitable for "everyday decision making," that couldn't be further from the truth. First you describe the obvious difference between "faith and facts," and then you demean faith in following statements, and now, you minimize its effect and benefit to all of us by relegating it to a simple "tool" that we use to "control the masses." That is such a limited view, it really can't be dealt with on a forum like this due to a lack of space to really get into the depths of this matter. But everyone has to have something to believe in. I'm not sure what your "thing" is, but so be it. And God be with you, my friend.

There is a lot here but I will limit my responses.

1) your almost proof is my insufficient evidence. We will not agree here.

3) From a biblical perspective, what is the sign of a true, real Christian?

4) Religion’s main purpose is to control the masses. That is not an insult. I much prefer to disagree with even a poor example of a Christian than a complete unbeliever.

6bg6ga

08-06-2019, 08:45 PM

Amazing thread.. If we don't believe we are cut down by the believers and stripped of our ability to have an opinion and ridiculed because we don't possibly believe word for word. I've tried to believe but so much is so far fetched. Sure, there is something greater than us thus the creation of the universes, earth, and so forth. Why on earth would a creator need to have us worship him? This defies logic because anything this great needs nothing else. What are we? Ants walking across the sidewalk with someone holding a magnifying glass watching as we burst into a puff of smoke? Maybe we are nothing more than a constant show that runs 24/7 never ending supplying laughter to our creator. You believe in a bible that was written by man and thus can't be anything but flawed yet its held as truth.

Religion does satisfy the psychological need to believe in something greater than ourselves. Religion keeps us in line and without it there would be nothing but chaos. Ask a former Catholic how the church uses guilt as a method of control. Sorry, for right now I still don't buy it.

Snow ninja

08-06-2019, 08:52 PM

And as to the stories in the Bible being "outlandish," it may seem that way to you, but then, you've never really sought to find belief or faith, so it's only natural that one so disinclined to really make an earnest search, hasn't found it.

But you do not have the authority to declare the Bible's stories "outlandish," and you'll never have that authority. But you do it anyway, which shows you to be a malcontent that would probably complain about ice cream not being good enough for you.

Maybe it's fun disparaging Christians and their faith and beliefs. Ok, so a little history about me. I was raised from birth as a southern Baptist, went to church 3 times a week, heck- I even married the preachers daughter. Around 22, I started questioning myself. Was this something that I believed because I was strongly willed to do so, or just because I had never known anything else?

With my wife being the pastors daughter, I got glimpses of the other side of the church. How these "Christians" did things and acted. I realized that maybe my problem wasn't with religion, but with the organized "church" side.

So I went on a soul searching journey over the next several years. I talked to different pastors, read books, I even read every last page and word of the Bible to interpret it myself. I listened to Christian radio stations.

Maybe that was my problem, someone else was always telling me how I should feel and interpret it. Most of the time, I was met with hostility, as I am here. Apparently, you're just not allowed to have a genuine difficulty with your own faith.

Along the way, I realized that I truly did not believe in a creator. I have so many questions about things, and blind Faith is just not enough for me. Answering every question with, "We're not meant to understand" or "he works in mysterious ways" just isn't good enough.

So I've dedicated more than a decade trying to be closer to God, just to realize that I will never truly believe.

And yes, I will call the stories outlandish. Taken in any other context and they would be considered fiction. Do you believe the story of Mohammed and his cave Revelations? Probably not, but millions of people do, so according to you, you can't call it false because it's their faith.

Also, leave my Klondike bars out of this.

And no, I don't have fun disparaging Christian's, but I do believe they should be able to back up their faith with discussion. But, as I've seen numerous times in this sub forum, and in life, it is not about theological discussion. If you're not part of the cool kids group, no one wants anything to do with you. People never want to discuss anything unless you're already a believer. Then we could all just stand in a circle and pat each other on the back.

I have no problem with you and your faith. I understand people need it. When I go to breakfast with my grandpa, we join hands and pray together. I know it's important to him, and show him that respect.

So, yes, I have truly tried to find that higher calling, I've just realized it's not there for me.

Don Purcell

08-06-2019, 10:29 PM

Well said and heartfelt.

6bg6ga

08-07-2019, 07:49 AM

I spent over 26years servicing the audio and video systems in large formats and when I wasn't doing that I serviced churches. I saw a side the other side that wasn't glorious to look at or talk about. The other side was concerned ONLY with what came in on the collection plate/collection envelopes and how to increase the yeald weekly. I saw a side that wasn't concerned with people well being only the almighty dollar. I saw people in need both spiritually and physically being turned away some because they didn't make an appointment to see the paster. I saw the side that was only concerned with what they could buy for equipment and would that equipment make them better than the church down the street. It was funny top listen to different churches explain how they were better than say another church. At one time I went to a christian church with the wife, our son and his wife and my granddaughter. I enjoyed the service and felt something special. Shortly after that I was doing some work in a Baptist church and was asked what church I attended and I told the paster I was going to a christian church. He wasted no time telling me I was going to the wrong church because the christian church did a lot of singing and he could show me in the bible where that was wrong. The bible to me shows nothing but conflicting ideas. Whatever you find you can always find something different. If you choose to read interpret it and live by it then so be it but do not judge me because I don't believe it word for word yet use logic instead to dictate my path. I see no truth for example that someone lived lets say 700 years or 500 years because that is totally impossible. It is very probable that the bible does in effect contain things that aren't correct simply because MAN wrote it and man has changed it over the years sometimes to suite his needs.

I can appreciate the faith that some have and I certainly would be the last to question it for them or cause them to doubt their faith but the same token they need to respect me and my feelings and reasoning's. Unfortunately they don't respect me for my beliefs instead I get criticized and ridiculed.

When the wife and I put on a dinner for Christmas, Easter, or any other holiday my brother and his wife, my sisters and their husbands were always invited. My Mom would say a blessing before we would eat and we would pray with her. It respected her and my siblings to do so.

EDG

08-07-2019, 03:47 PM

Science in the Bible - no there is not a bit.
The Bible is not science it is a collection of tales handed down through the centuries.
It has not one bit of scientific theory in it.
So you expect the origin of the universe to be known by scientists? They are not there yet.
As for gullible - sure you are if you want to believe the goat herders tales over the proven science os the last 1000 years or so. Care to argue with Kepler, Leibniz, Newton, Einstein, Faraday, Maxwell, Bohr, Euclid, Alexander Fleming, Jonas Salk and many others. These men have contributed much to change and improve the live of man. Their discoveries have withstood the test of time. Salk and Fleming cured many of disease and saved many lives with their science. Your Bible has saved not one. If you knew and mastered their works you would be far better educated than if you rely on your Bible which seems to offer nothing new in the last 2000 years.
Because of the advances in science and the changes in life that occur over time man will eventually move on, life will change and old things that do not contribute will be left behind. Science will never be left behind because scientists know that, unlike believers, they do not have all the answers. So scientists keep looking for the answers and as they find them they become widely accepted and proven science. Your Bible is static, it just has the same old unchanging story that cannot change as science makes new discoveries.
While most of the world's population does not adhere to the Bible all men are governed by the laws of science and physics even if they know nothing about them. Those that seek to create and build and change the world are much more effective when they have studied and know science. How could you read this without chemists, materials scientists or physicists developing the materials, processes and theories for the engineers and designers that create our world. Would you rather be herding goats and staring at the stars looking for your boogeyman? That is where you would be without science.

Galileo was an Italian scientist but the Roman church was NOT open to his findings. In fact the Church forced him to publicly recant his findings or be burned at the stake! He was a Roman Catholic by default, not choice. He lived in the late 1,500s when the Reformation was young and still virtually powerless. No other churches were tolerated in Italy at the time and it remains much the same today, minus the penalty of death.

I suppose we all have reconciled science and our faith to some degree. I mean we live peacefully in the same neighborhoods with everyone and, unlike Islam, no one in the Christian world beats or beheads those who hold different beliefs.

It's certainly possible but it seems unlikely.

Scientists claim to have detected a tiny echo of the supposed Big Bang .... but the "echo" they found is supposed to be a super small temperature difference from fantastically far away!

In order for the Big Bang to be true the measured rate of expansion of the universe would have to be slowing; it isn't, it's actually accelerating. So, the Big Bang theory blows itself up!

Thing is, science doesn't lie but scientists wanting more research money do. Follow the money, scientists aren't above manipulating data to support what they desperately want to be true (see: "man made global warming"). I simply don't believe science has tools that can resolve such a small temperature difference as they claim to have detected from so far away and so long ago; I'm gullible but I'm not THAT gullible!

Maybe. But I sure don't think so.

I used to believe that but I finally had to reject "guided evolution" because it raises more knotty questions in my mind than it answers. I just can't swallow a camel while straining a gnat

The Bible isn't a science book BUT there is a lot of science in it.

Surely all of us believe in science when it's real science. But science books of beginnings require much more faith in scientist's dreams than they deserve. Real science requires theories that can be tested and duplicated to be proven science and that simply cannot be done for beginnings.

In real science, wild-*** guesses don't count. Thus, those scientists who voice emphatic certainties of beginnings immediately reduce their lofty arguments to asking us for blind "religious" faith in themselves because they lack the necessary hard evidence for it to be science.

Char-Gar

08-07-2019, 05:08 PM

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments were written by Godly men, for a Godly purpose. In order to understand, it require knowledge of when it was written, to whom it was written, what was the purpose/intent of the writing and who wrote it. It certainly is not myth, legend, or written for a nefarious purpose.

Addendum: I chose my words with great care, in the above post. Churches vary greatly in their doctrine of the Bible, it's inspiration and it's value in personal faith. What I say can fit into anybody's doctrine, so I will just leave it at that and not quibble over words. Over and out!

dannyd

08-07-2019, 07:57 PM

Every Word in the KJB is true to me.

EDG

08-08-2019, 09:14 AM

You do not know any such thing. That is only your desired line of propaganda based on what is your opinion. Your opinion is likely to have come from your parents as a hand me down faith that never originated in logic.

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments were written by Godly men, for a Godly purpose. In order to understand, it require knowledge of when it was written, to whom it was written, what was the purpose/intent of the writing and who wrote it. It certainly is not myth, legend, or written for a nefarious purpose.

Addendum: I chose my words with great care, in the above post. Churches vary greatly in their doctrine of the Bible, it's inspiration and it's value in personal faith. What I say can fit into anybody's doctrine, so I will just leave it at that and not quibble over words. Over and out!

EDG

08-08-2019, 09:18 AM

dannyd

08-08-2019, 10:25 AM

T_McD

08-08-2019, 11:42 AM

dverna

08-08-2019, 12:22 PM

dannyd

08-08-2019, 01:06 PM

The most amazing thing I find is when the Hospice Nurse calls a persons name how fast they pickup a Bible and try to find Jesus.

EDG

08-08-2019, 09:04 PM

Certainly I have the authority to declare the tales in the Bible as outlandish. s
It was easy and I just did it. I can do it again tomorrow. There are several billion people on the earth that do not recognize your argument. So yes stick with the facts. You have zero authority to declare what anyone else should think. I will readily admit that it is amusing to see the illogical and irrational arguments offered by believers when all you have to lean on is an old book of dubious origin and your imaginations. I still think many or most believers are into Christianity simply because of a very subconscious fear of death. The promise of everlasting life is a nice insurance policy for the selfish person to get a good deal on a comfortable eternity....

Yes indeed, since his rising from the primordial ooze, man has indeed looked up at the night sky in awe and wonder, and somehow, something within him KNEW that there was a real and supremely powerful God in those heavens. But it was MUCH more than just "a need to explain things" that drew those old humans toward belief in God. Glossing over all the things that man is capable of, and stating man found belief only in an effort to "explain things," is a mere carricature of mankind, and an obvious omitting of all the things that make us human. Let's stick to the facts if we're to discuss this very important and crucial issue, OK?

And as to the stories in the Bible being "outlandish," it may seem that way to you, but then, you've never really sought to find belief or faith, so it's only natural that one so disinclined to really make an earnest search, hasn't found it. But you do not have the authority to declare the Bible's stories "outlandish," and you'll never have that authority. But you do it anyway, which shows you to be a malcontent that would probably complain about ice cream not being good enough for you. So be it if that's what you choose. You have the right to choose anything you want to. But you'll NEVER have the right to declare anything regarding faith as being anything but what it simply is. Maybe it's fun disparaging Christians and their faith and beliefs. I can't see it. I believe it's a fool's errand, but obviously, you disagree. Again, so be it. God gave you the right to accept or deny Him, and no man here or anywhere has the right to make your decisions for you. But remember, you also have the responsibility to get it right, because we only have one life in this world, and afterward, the judgment or whatever you wish to imagine comes next. God be with you my friend. You need Him more than you can presently know.

dverna

08-08-2019, 09:15 PM

Arkansas Paul

08-09-2019, 01:38 AM

EDG,

Since becoming a believer I have less fear of death. If death is the last stop on my journey, then so be it. But as a believer, death is only another step. My body will rot and decay as any dead body, but my soul will carry on. Whether that means spending eternity in a hot uncomfortable place or a better place...I do not know.

At least, I have a chance I did not have before.

I was much like you...so keep an open mind.

I imagine this is a very individual thing and varies from person to person.
I am not a firm believer, and I do not fear death at all. At least I do not fear what comes after death.

Even to me death is merely another step.
The atoms in my body were in other living things before me, and will be in others after I'm finished with them.
I love the idea that my body will rot and decay and return to the earth. That doesn't bother me at all.
It's nature's way and it's a good way.

dtknowles

08-09-2019, 11:09 AM

EDG,

Since becoming a believer I have less fear of death. If death is the last stop on my journey, then so be it. But as a believer, death is only another step. My body will rot and decay as any dead body, but my soul will carry on. Whether that means spending eternity in a hot uncomfortable place or a better place...I do not know.

At least, I have a chance I did not have before.

I was much like you...so keep an open mind.

If you have an open mind, consider the idea that you don't have to believe in eternal life to be granted eternal life. Maybe if you are good, you will be granted eternal life even if you did not believe in eternal life.

Tim

dtknowles

08-09-2019, 11:10 AM

Maybe God is a trickster and those who expect to go to heaven are reincarnated and those who expect to be reincarnated will be retired to heaven.

Tim

Rizzo

08-09-2019, 11:47 AM

Maybe God is a trickster and those who expect to go to heaven are reincarnated and those who expect to be reincarnated will be retired to heaven.

Tim

Well, look at that!
Something that you hardly see mentioned in this forum.....reincarnation.

Although that word is not in the Bible, the concept of it is sprinkled throughout the Bible.
For example, John the Baptist was actually the reincarnated Elijah.
Jesus said that was the case in the Bible.

However, we are all accountable for what we do.
It is the law of Cause and Effect, better known as Karma.
"Live by the sword, die buy the sword"
"You reap what you sow"

The idea is that when we physically die, our good and bad karma is evaluated (judged?).
If you were a thief, murderer, bad person, etc. when you die, we need to be accountable for those actions.
Also, if you died with unfulfilled desires, such as wanting to be a billionaire, wanted that new Corvette, etc. you bring that baggage with you after you die.

There isn't a heaven or hell only situation.
In fact, there is no eternal hell that souls are sent to.
"...be ye perfect...."

We reincarnate into a life that will give us an opportunity to account for, or negate, that bad karma that you accumulated along the way in your previous life(s).

Ultimately the slate is clean and we can move on in the Spiritual Realms and eventually be back "home" with God.

Blackwater

08-09-2019, 01:09 PM

1. And no, I don't have fun disparaging Christian's, but I do believe they should be able to back up their faith with discussion.
2. But, as I've seen numerous times in this sub forum, and in life, it is not about theological discussion.
3 People never want to discuss anything unless you're already a believer.
4, Then we could all just stand in a circle and pat each other on the back.

1. Wow! You are absolutely right here! We indeed SHOULD be able to explain to non-believers what it is that has led us to believe. But indeed, many can't do this simple thing. But having read the Bible, and obviously having a large dose of forgiveness and understanding within you, you simply need to realize that many people have become afraid to draw conclusions on their own, and once they get to that point, they generally let the preacher or their Sunday School teachers (if they're well read and solidly soaked in the Word) do their thinking for them, and tell them what to think. It's really no different than in politics, where many have decided to believe one party over the other, isn't it? And I'm sure you understand that. Just apply the same to us believers. And know that we don't simply "choose" to believe. We all have very definite and concrete reasons to believe. If that moment has simply never hit you yet, keep looking for it, and do not turn away in faithless disappointment. Christ is there for you, but you have to open your heart and mind, and listen with a keen ear, because He always speaks in whispers. He's not like Satan, who shouts, and screams and seductively lures us. The search for Christ is amazingly easy, once you've found it. And you realize the problem all along wasn't Him, but you who were seeking in all the wrong ways. I speak here as a veteran of having searched the wrong ways for a very long time, so I'm like one alcoholic speaking to another. I know whereof you speak. And never fear. Christ is and will always be right there for you, especially when you most need Him. One day, it will feel like a window in the great Veil has opened, and you can see and feel Him calling to you to simply reach out, and take His hand, and partake of His wonderful forgiveness, mercy and grace. It will be a moment you'll never forget.

2. You're right here, too. It's not generally about theology. That's now relegated to the "Deep Theological" section of the board. But I seem to discern (?) that you haven't found any real satisfaction in theology in your readings and discussions on your own. If so, please realize that many of us haven't found Christ that way, either. We only began to understand theology AFTER we had that "conversion experience," when that magic portal opens and you at once "get" who Christ really is, and what He wants for you. So don't give up your search. It's far from being over. And by the way, those who come to Christ later in life seem to be uniquely gifted once they do. So it's always worth seeking Him. And you can never anticipate when or where or under what circumstances you'll finally meet Him. And then, you'll understand just how wise you were to keep searching. He's not that hard to find, if only we give up our temporal egos, and humble ourselves before Him. He cannot talk through a haughty or prideful spirit, and I'm not talking about the outlandish sort of thing, but the quieter sort that is so easy to allow to creep into our minds and hearts. Think of the most holy acting and behaving people you've ever met? Were they not singularly humble? Self assured when speaking of their Lord, yes, but still with a very humble spirit regarding themselves. Think of them when you think of "Christians," for they are fully mature in His spirit. Most of us labor at jobs and family, and maybe our pastimes, and have little time to study the scriptures and grow in His light. But we never doubt the experience we had however long ago it's been for us. We know the basics, and that's all it really takes to get to Heaven one day. All we need to do is simply do our best, and keep the faith.

3. You're right here, too. There ARE those types. Mostly, they're just afraid to listen to anyone else's ideas our countering speeches because they know their own personal convictions are weak and delicate. They have yet to really examine and test their faith, as likely as not. They're inexperienced in evangelizing, and they show it. Again, don't let such a minor and obvious situation set you back in your search. Focus on the more mature Christians - the ones who speak in soft voices, normally, and who reason with you instead of trying to "hit you on the head with the Bible" by repeatedly reciting a few verses. Seek from those who know, and you will find. Seek from those who don't really know, and haven't yet proved their faith many times over, and you'll never come to belief. It's really all in who you seek from.

4. Nope. This is wrong, and you already knew that when you wrote it. Once we know our Creator and Savior, the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and as we learn, it grows ever stronger, and more all encompassing. And real Christians NEVER have a "feel good party." They are in a battle, and only re-group so they can continue the battle, and work more efficiently and effectively. Remember, the church is a social organization as well as a religious one. Please don't get the social part mixed up with the religious part. And also, don't expect a whole church full of people to ALL be fully mature. We're just forgiven sinners, trying to learn more and do better.

Blackwater

08-09-2019, 01:29 PM

It is doubtful you know much of anything about your own ancestors only 6 generations back.
You want us to believe that the Bible has been handed down through various interpretations by HUMANS to more humans to more humans with unknown agendas for nearly 2000 years without a single error? That is not possibly true except in some fantasy.

Well, EDG, you apparently haven't heard that original scrolls have been discovered and dug up, and their texts match almost perfectly the Bible we read today. Yes, it's been interpreted into English and every other dialect, and those translations may be suspect in certain minute places. But yes, it's almost perfectly intact, as to content. Isn't it amazing how the Lord can protect His teachings? You may not believe, but you MUST wonder how such a seemingly impossible thing as that could possibly happen, don't you. That's a concrete and conclusive fact, that many who don't believe, and don't want to, conveniently leave out of their explanations of why they can't and don't believe.

And as to science, that was mentioned above as "There IS no science in the Bible," well ..... that is patently untrue. There are no formulas for mixing up concoctions, or blueprints of how to build a car or plane, but did you know that the Bible is the ONLY text to have ever described the creation in the EXACT order in which it occured, according to modern science's findings? Did you know that sub-atomic physics theories can explain exactly how it may well have been possible for Christ's physical body to have passed through a locked door, without opening it? If you don't know these things, you can't possibly say what you have here, and expect it to be believed by those who do.

And as to science and the Bible conflicting, it was once considered to be so, but that was back when "Darwin's Theory" was accepted as truth, and today, it is ever increasingly evident that Darwin's theory may describe "adaptation," but it does most emphatically NOT describe evolution, as it is commonly perceived and discussed today. Science increasingly supports the Bible, and its accounts. So does Archeology. So does everything else. We are living today in the most fact filled world that has ever existed, but many find what some book or teacher calls a few facts, and never checks back to see if they've found anything more or different. If we just searched more, we'd know more, and that applies whether it be the Bible or science or whatever we're considering. Like Christ promised, "Seek and ye shall find." The real problem is many quit searching once they've found an answer that satisfies them. What a mistake that is! And BTW, did you know the Catholic church, that is so despised and hammered by the secular folks, owns, paid for and operates a huge astronomy telescope, and staffs it with VERY highly educated priests, and that thier standing among other astronomers is very high? Again, there are many things you have apparently not been known to you, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Christians have the most concrete of all reasons for their belief. And experience with Christ himself! If you've never had that experience, it doesn't mean you can't, or that you never will. All that's necessary is that you truly seek Him with a truly humble spirit, and an open heart and mind. And when He comes, it will be as with a whisper. He is never obtrusive or showy. He is quiet, so as to quieten our own spirits and outlook. I hope you come to know him, but that's up to you.

Blackwater

08-09-2019, 01:45 PM

"Religious people often think of faith as confidence based on a perceived degree of warrant, while others who are more skeptical of religion tend to think of faith as simply belief without evidence." Not my words but I think appropriate.

If we were able to prove God exists, faith would not be needed, but the various "proofs" I have read are convoluted and next to useless for a non-believer.

Neither is it possible to prove God does not exist. There are good arguments that we cannot understand why terrible things to people who seem innocent if there is a loving all powerful God, but they still do not prove there is no God. Talk to a couple who have lost a new-born and most will have little use for God unless they have years of faith to depend on. For unbelievers, it "proves" God is not what He is made out to be.

Faith is difficult. But without faith, we will not be able to accept God.

Regrettably organized religion can be an impediment to non-believers seeking God. It happens when man gets involved with almost anything. Pettiness, jealousy, pride, greed, ignorance etc, are evident in many churches. For non- believers looking for answers, do not let the shenanigans of churches dissuade you. Most do good things but they are not perfect. A good church and pastor will make you think and read the Bible. As to the Bible, I do not believe every word to be the Word of God, but there is much to be learned from studying it.

I am reminded of the saying, "A leap of faith". Yes, that will be required, and in time it happens if you keep an open mind.

BTW, some of most closed minded people you will meet will be those who have believed in God and attended church since they were children. They are unable to fathom how anyone cannot believe in God, or accept the inerrancy of the Bible. In my experience, most are good people but not critical thinkers. They have strong faith and do not want it challenged.

Don, there is some truth in what you say, but in most of it, you describe the problems of humanity, and not of Christ or of religion itself. Many who believe have great difficulty in following Christ's directions and advice. But they believe, and if they're truly trying, and just combating a bit of a too haughty spirit within themselves, they they are still Christians, but just very poor examples of real Christianity. And yes, it is indeed sad that so many cannot really describe or relate to a non-believer all the reasons they believe. But sadly, that's the state of far too many modern believers. We all have jobs and family and often, pastimes, that limit our time to spend studying. But when the weekends come, when we DO have some time, we often spend that time doing something else. Is it any wonder then, that so many sputter, stutter and go " ....mmmm" when they're asked WHY they believe? Of course not. The problems are all within the PEOPLE, and not with religion, or with Christ. It's with our ignorance, which we do far too little to cure. So that should never turn anyone away from a search for the real and unfailing Christ.

Instead, why not look at the best among us, rather than the dregs???? I know you've recently come to belief. What was that experience like for you? Was it as if some sort of other-dimensional portal was opened, and you at once KNEW that it was Christ standing before you, reaching out His holy hand, and inviting you to partake of His forgiveness, His grace, and His mercy? That's a real "conversion experience," and I use that word "knew" in the full and complete meaning of the word. One CAN know things by means beyond what our temporal world commonly realizes. Those who've never had such an experience cannot possibly relate to it. Only those who've had it can really understand what I speak of here. But it's very real, and it's not limited to anyone. It's available to all who truly seek, and who do it with a humble and sincere spirit. Only then is it possible for the Lord to speak to people, and truly become very, very real to them. Again, those who've not had such an experience cannot possibly relate. But for them to say it can't and never did happen is ridiculous on the face of it. You can't know something you're not seeking, and are actually averse to even thinking or talking about. This is why some non-believers dismiss such things out of hand. They think they have seen all, and know all, and that nothing is possible beyond their meager human experience. Silly of them, I know, but they do it. We seem to have, as humans, a capacity and taste for the ridiculous far too often. God speed to all here.

dtknowles

08-09-2019, 03:26 PM

Well, EDG, you apparently haven't heard that original scrolls have been discovered and dug up, and their texts match almost perfectly the Bible we read today. ...……...

The Dead Sea Scrolls do match some parts of the old testament but they only account for a fraction of the Bible. It would be nice of someone actually had a original letter written by one of the Apostles.

Tim

dtknowles

08-09-2019, 04:04 PM

1hole

08-09-2019, 08:02 PM

The Dead Sea Scrolls do match some parts of the old testament but they only account for a fraction of the Bible. It would be nice of someone actually had a original letter written by one of the Apostles.

Tim
The O.T. canon was completed by about 400 BC. The common writing material at that time was usually sheep skin scraped thin and well treated to last a very long time, as the Dead Sea scrolls show.

The N.T. almost certainly was written on paper made from reeds, it wasn't very durable so many copies were made over the next several years.

We have something "better" than an old copy, we have the testimony of hundreds of years dating from when the originals still existed.

Religious Jews handled their scriptures very tightly. IF there were any meaningful errors in the passed down copies there would have been public howls of outrage about it. The total historical absence of any such conflict is all the testimony we need for us to be sure that what we have today is very close to what was first written.

dtknowles

08-09-2019, 09:30 PM

The O.T. canon was completed by about 400 BC. The common writing material at that time was usually sheep skin scraped thin and well treated to last a very long time, as the Dead Sea scrolls show.

The N.T. almost certainly was written on paper made from reeds, it wasn't very durable so many copies were made over the next several years.

We have something "better" than an old copy, we have the testimony of hundreds of years dating from when the originals still existed.

Religious Jews handled their scriptures very tightly. IF there were any meaningful errors in the passed down copies there would have been public howls of outrage about it. The total historical absence of any such conflict is all the testimony we need for us to be sure that what we have today is very close to what was first written.

I don't disagree with that. The Jewish scripture is not the same as the OT, right? I have not read the Torah, I guess I should.

It is clear that the Christian Church was not as scrupulous as the Jewish Church. That said, I think that the NT is probably pretty close to what was originally written just the providence is kind of weak.

Tim

Blackwater

08-10-2019, 05:13 PM

The Dead Sea Scrolls do match some parts of the old testament but they only account for a fraction of the Bible. It would be nice of someone actually had a original letter written by one of the Apostles.

Tim

DT, yes, but if all that we've found matches nearly perfectly, why would we rationally question the rest? And yes, it would be nice if we had that original letter, but what we have is fully sufficient for our needs. Christ was intended to fulfill all our needs, but not necessarily all our wants. Is not that the way a good Father deals with his children?

Blackwater

08-10-2019, 05:20 PM

I am pretty comfortable with the idea that David wrote the psalms.

I believe that Revelations is an allegory of a spiritual path an ongoing struggle between good and evil.

I think Genesis is a bunch of parables.

The miracle of loaves and fishes was people sharing what the brought with them to eat with the crowd, it seems most must have brought enough to share. Sort of like passing the collection plate in church. It was not like the people were going to go hungry if Jesus did not provide. They were not that silly.

Tim

If you believe the miracle of the loaves, then what is it that prevents you from believing the rest? Is not a real and all powerful God capable of doing all the things that the Bible describes? Why then the disbelief??? It doesn't make sense to me.

Faith is a whole thing, and parsing it out piecemeal doesn't seem to me to be real Faith. Only inquisition and partial belief. Christ really IS capable of all He said He was capable of, and if that's true, why couldn't Genesis be true as well, even if it's the greatly condensed version? We often think of God materializing as Christ materialized, and building our world with "bricks and mortar," or His equivalent of that. But why couldn't He sit up in Heaven and make it all happen just as He describes??? What would limit an all powerful and benevolent God??????? He's limitless, except that He cannot abide sin or sinners in His Kingdom. Then, it wouldn't be Heaven any more, and He is fiercely protective of His realm, as would and should be expected.

He made us in His image. How He did this is beyond our knowing. We probably don't have the capacity to understand this fully. So be it. That's what faith, real faith, is for.

1hole

08-10-2019, 08:26 PM

I don't disagree with that. The Jewish scripture is not the same as the OT, right? I have not read the Torah, I guess I should.

Torah are the books of Moses, the first five books (scrolls) of the O.T. Torah is a mix of history and the giving of God's rules for all men to live at their best, aka, to live by the Mosiac Law.

Jews hold to four groups of sacred writings; (1) the Law (Torah), (2) the major Prophets, the (3) Writings and (4) the minor prophets. They were all independently written over something like 2-3 thousand years and they were by no means the only writings inspired and used by God during that period. WE need to understand it has been an act of God that the books he wanted us to have have been protected for us to know him and live as we should - for our own good, not as an over-bearing tyrant.

It is clear that the Christian Church was not as scrupulous as the Jewish Church.

There is only one Church. The Church is the mystic body and Bride of Christ, consisting ONLY of (spiritually) "born again" believers who trust (faith) their lives in the Lord Jesus.

Why so many Bible versions and corruptions? There is no copyright on the Holy Scriptures so a very few strange men have indeed corrupted the written word to make it better match the satanic teachings of their founders and leaders (LDS, JW, 7th Day, etc).

That said, Peter and Paul didn't carry a KJV around so there are quite a few mainstream translation versions that faithfully supply us the true meanings of scripture in ways we can better understand.

That said, I think that the NT is probably pretty close to what was originally written just the providence is kind of weak.

I think that too and the providence is better than you may think, Remember, the early Church was almost all religious Jews and they seem to have taken better care to preserve original texts more accurately than modern Bible antagonists want to believe.

Much of the N.T. was written within the living memory of many Christians and copies were made by many of the same people as the O.T. Thus, we can be sure if there were any meaningful variations in copies those who knew what was first written would have have been outraged and corruptions would be burned. Thus, any copier or group of copiers seeking to "change" scripture would have found it to be much more difficult to get away with than many today believe.

T_McD

08-11-2019, 06:03 PM

The last few posts have illustrated the practical issues I have with the claim that Scripture is of divine origin.

dtknowles

08-11-2019, 06:48 PM

DT, yes, but if all that we've found matches nearly perfectly, why would we rationally question the rest? And yes, it would be nice if we had that original letter, but what we have is fully sufficient for our needs. Christ was intended to fulfill all our needs, but not necessarily all our wants. Is not that the way a good Father deals with his children?

God has not even come close to fulfilling everyone's needs. Christ does not even fulfill the needs of all followers. If you think they do, you are not paying attention. Many have been martyred for Christ, many even in the last year.

If you believe "the Lord is our shepherd and thou shalt not want" I guess you can be a happy starving sheep being led to slaughter.

Tim

dtknowles

08-11-2019, 06:51 PM

Torah are the books of Moses, the first five books (scrolls) of the O.T. Torah is a mix of history and the giving of God's rules for all men to live at their best, aka, to live by the Mosiac Law.

Jews hold to four groups of sacred writings; (1) the Law (Torah), (2) the major Prophets, the (3) Writings and (4) the minor prophets. They were all independently written over something like 2-3 thousand years and they were by no means the only writings inspired and used by God during that period. WE need to understand it has been an act of God that the books he wanted us to have have been protected for us to know him and live as we should - for our own good, not as an over-bearing tyrant.

There is only one Church. The Church is the mystic body and Bride of Christ, consisting ONLY of (spiritually) "born again" believers who trust (faith) their lives in the Lord Jesus.

Why so many Bible versions and corruptions? There is no copyright on the Holy Scriptures so a very few strange men have indeed corrupted the written word to make it better match the satanic teachings of their founders and leaders (LDS, JW, 7th Day, etc).

That said, Peter and Paul didn't carry a KJV around so there are quite a few mainstream translation versions that faithfully supply us the true meanings of scripture in ways we can better understand.

I think that too and the providence is better than you may think, Remember, the early Church was almost all religious Jews and they seem to have taken better care to preserve original texts more accurately than modern Bible antagonists want to believe.

Much of the N.T. was written within the living memory of many Christians and copies were made by many of the same people as the O.T. Thus, we can be sure if there were any meaningful variations in copies those who knew what was first written would have have been outraged and corruptions would be burned. Thus, any copier or group of copiers seeking to "change" scripture would have found it to be much more difficult to get away with than many today believe.

There are many books and many churches but only one God. He did leave us many books but some are from false prophets and offer false doctrine, the trick is figuring out which to believe and how to interpret them.

Tim

dtknowles

08-11-2019, 06:56 PM

If you believe the miracle of the loaves, then what is it that prevents you from believing the rest? Is not a real and all powerful God capable of doing all the things that the Bible describes? Why then the disbelief??? …….

I believe the loaves and fishes story and I explained how I don't think it was a miracle. God who created the Universe could cause everything in the Bible but I don't believe he did. I think it was made up by a bunch of self-serving radical anti-establishment Jews. Led by the Apostilles, his Mom and close friends. Today we would call them Terrorists. The mistake they made was making him a martyr.

Tim

T_McD

08-11-2019, 07:07 PM

I believe the loaves and fishes story and I explained how I don't think it was a miracle. God who created the Universe could cause everything in the Bible but I don't believe he did. I think it was made up by a bunch of self-serving radical anti-establishment Jews. Led by the Apostilles, his Mom and close friends. Today we would call them Terrorists. The mistake they made was making him a martyr.

Tim

Interesting take. What is your opinion of the origin of the Jewish faith itself?

Blackwater

08-12-2019, 05:10 PM

God has not even come close to fulfilling everyone's needs. Christ does not even fulfill the needs of all followers. If you think they do, you are not paying attention. Many have been martyred for Christ, many even in the last year.

If you believe "the Lord is our shepherd and thou shalt not want" I guess you can be a happy starving sheep being led to slaughter.

Tim

If your view of God is that He's there to supply us with all that we want, then it's no wonder you believe as you do. But He gave us a world full of abundance, that we might enjoy and utilize it and build something good. But He most emphatically is NOT a big "sugar daddy in the sky" who gives us what we want. He's a father, and like a good father, sometimes He lets us have the inevitable results of our foolishness, as in war, death, disease, etc. But that doesn't make Him one whit less than the God He claims to be! Doesn't this make a lot more sense than believing He's some sort of "sugar daddy" who's supposed to give us what we want, and protect us from some of the choices we make????

What they NEED, and what they WANT, are two very separate and opposite things! Let's not get the two confused, please.

Blackwater

08-12-2019, 05:16 PM

The last few posts have illustrated the practical issues I have with the claim that Scripture is of divine origin.

Are you of the opinion that if it was of a divine origin, that it'd reach out and grab us, and MAKE us understand? Is that the way your mother raised you? God gave us the scriptures so that anyone with a humble heart and an open mind could know His will for us, and His will is all good. It's only AFTER we die, that He has the unpleasant duty to separate the believers out, and relegate the rest to the only other dominion extant, and that's Hell, where they'll reside forever with the Evil One, and "Father of all lies."

It's up to each of us to choose, and whether or not to really seek the Truth. That's all there really is to it.

T_McD

08-12-2019, 05:25 PM

Are you of the opinion that if it was of a divine origin, that it'd reach out and grab us, and MAKE us understand? Is that the way your mother raised you? God gave us the scriptures so that anyone with a humble heart and an open mind could know His will for us, and His will is all good. It's only AFTER we die, that He has the unpleasant duty to separate the believers out, and relegate the rest to the only other dominion extant, and that's Hell, where they'll reside forever with the Evil One, and "Father of all lies."

It's up to each of us to choose, and whether or not to really seek the Truth. That's all there really is to it.

If it was divine in origin, why is it written by man’s hand?

popper

08-12-2019, 05:38 PM

Actually, some of the O.T. scribes made foot notes, that had to be 'realized' to get real meaning. Cannot believe in 6-24hr days of Creation in Genesis. Too much of that does not add up. Just got back from Ark and Creation Museum. Don't agree with everything said but it is an interesting hypothesis. I wasn't there when the earth was created so can't say for sure. I know that God could make the universe in 6 24hr days or by the snap of his finger, if he had/has one. As to the 'old' vs 'new' argument, not enough info in either for a conclusion. One argument (big bang) has the speed of light problem, Bible has the 'flood' water of
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. - problem, 60' covered the hills? But wait for it - maybe the earth surface was pretty 'flat'? Ark was 30 cubit tall.
Anyway, Bible is the story of God's selected people (Israelites and Christians), not the earth's history. Therefore, lots of time and events LEFT OUT!

dverna

08-12-2019, 06:29 PM

Don, there is some truth in what you say, but in most of it, you describe the problems of humanity, and not of Christ or of religion itself. Many who believe have great difficulty in following Christ's directions and advice. But they believe, and if they're truly trying, and just combating a bit of a too haughty spirit within themselves, they they are still Christians, but just very poor examples of real Christianity. And yes, it is indeed sad that so many cannot really describe or relate to a non-believer all the reasons they believe. But sadly, that's the state of far too many modern believers. We all have jobs and family and often, pastimes, that limit our time to spend studying. But when the weekends come, when we DO have some time, we often spend that time doing something else. Is it any wonder then, that so many sputter, stutter and go " ....mmmm" when they're asked WHY they believe? Of course not. The problems are all within the PEOPLE, and not with religion, or with Christ. It's with our ignorance, which we do far too little to cure. So that should never turn anyone away from a search for the real and unfailing Christ.

Instead, why not look at the best among us, rather than the dregs???? I know you've recently come to belief. What was that experience like for you? Was it as if some sort of other-dimensional portal was opened, and you at once KNEW that it was Christ standing before you, reaching out His holy hand, and inviting you to partake of His forgiveness, His grace, and His mercy? That's a real "conversion experience," and I use that word "knew" in the full and complete meaning of the word. One CAN know things by means beyond what our temporal world commonly realizes. Those who've never had such an experience cannot possibly relate to it. Only those who've had it can really understand what I speak of here. But it's very real, and it's not limited to anyone. It's available to all who truly seek, and who do it with a humble and sincere spirit. Only then is it possible for the Lord to speak to people, and truly become very, very real to them. Again, those who've not had such an experience cannot possibly relate. But for them to say it can't and never did happen is ridiculous on the face of it. You can't know something you're not seeking, and are actually averse to even thinking or talking about. This is why some non-believers dismiss such things out of hand. They think they have seen all, and know all, and that nothing is possible beyond their meager human experience. Silly of them, I know, but they do it. We seem to have, as humans, a capacity and taste for the ridiculous far too often. God speed to all here.

Dennis,
For me it happened in the middle of the night. I did not feel the presence of God/Jesus. I had not been able to sleep and my mind was working overtime.

I could not dismiss the fact that Jesus was on the earth and performed miracles. Of that I am certain, or He would not have attracted so many people or the anger of the priests in positions of power that He threatened. I concluded there must be some truth to the reports in the Bible of what Jesus was and what He did. And even if only a few of the stories are 100% accurate, that was enough to prove Jesus for me. It flowed from logic and not faith.

Once I accepted that Jesus was real, it took very little faith to see Him as the Son of God. Aliens would not send one of their own to die for no reason. And although an alien race might be able to resurrect the dead, what would be the point of it? So, it followed that God had good reasons to allow His son to be crucified...to save the souls of the screw-ups He had created.

The Bible tells us of God's patience with man. How many chances were given to the Israelites and all failed. Man could not follow the 613 laws. We could not follow 10 simple commandments. If we believe Genesis, Adam and Eve could not even obey one rule. It is interesting that God knew we could not follow one rule and then gave us 10 and then 613...He needed us to realize how flawed we are. We proved to God that we were hopeless children. He had created a mess. (Which reinforces my belief God does not make perfect decisions)

He tried starting over with the Flood but that did not work. God was left with two choices.....eliminate us all and start with a new race, or sacrifice His son so we could not only find salvation but prove that He exists...for only a God could have performed the miracles of Jesus. And that brought me full circle to Jesus, his time on earth, and why He was here.

dtknowles

08-12-2019, 08:23 PM

Interesting take. What is your opinion of the origin of the Jewish faith itself?

That is all about Moses. He took a faithless conquered tribe and converted them to a religion he built by force of personality then he wrote a book that codified that faith.

Tim

dtknowles

08-12-2019, 08:25 PM

If your view of God is that He's there to supply us with all that we want, then it's no wonder you believe as you do. But He gave us a world full of abundance, that we might enjoy and utilize it and build something good. But He most emphatically is NOT a big "sugar daddy in the sky" who gives us what we want. He's a father, and like a good father, sometimes He lets us have the inevitable results of our foolishness, as in war, death, disease, etc. But that doesn't make Him one whit less than the God He claims to be! Doesn't this make a lot more sense than believing He's some sort of "sugar daddy" who's supposed to give us what we want, and protect us from some of the choices we make????

What they NEED, and what they WANT, are two very separate and opposite things! Let's not get the two confused, please.

They still are not getting what they need. Many of Christ's followers suffer miserable lives and die.

Tim

Thundarstick

08-13-2019, 05:30 AM

They still are not getting what they need. Many of Christ's followers suffer miserable lives and die.

Tim

God's blessings are spiritual. The poorest of the poor to kings, presidents, and dictators die! That is the lot of man kind, to physically die. Following Christ teachings doesn't promise us a nice cushy life, we are called to live a different life than than a worldly man that only worries about his three score and ten years in this life. If you aren't seeking a spiritual life, then spiritual understanding is foolishness to you. Nothing I say, show, or illustrate, can persuade a worldly focused mind to accept spiritual understanding. There are volumes of published life long scholarly works proving how reliable the Bible, especially the New Testament, is. I can post the footnotes for them, but they will be ignored and scoffed at, just as the Bible it's self is held in disbelief. As always, God gives us free will to choose or own paths, be blessed.

1hole

08-13-2019, 10:27 AM

... I think it was made up by a bunch of self-serving radical anti-establishment Jews. Led by the Apostilles, his Mom and close friends.

Goodness, what in the world makes you "think" that? What do you think those conniving, self-serving, anti-establishment Jews hoped to gain by planning such a farce?

Are you really "thinking" those sneaky apostles colluded around three years of campfires about how they would introduce a variation of Judaism that would gain them nothing but a hard life and harder deaths for themselves and their followers in a dubious con? Have you ever "thought" of the kind of men the apostles and followers would have had to be for all (but one) of the twelve to stick to a "con job" and horribly die as martyrs themselves when all they needed to escape the pain and live was to recant?

What marvelous power do you "think" Mary could possibly have had on those trembling but spiritually iron strong men to set themselves, their friends and their families up for tortured lives and miserable deaths?

Today we would call them Terrorists. The mistake they made was making him a martyr.

Jesus wasn't a martyr, he was a sacrifice, the apostals were martyrs. And you "think" those harmless guys who would become martyrs would be called terrorists today? Well, maybe by today's Democrats ... and they would also call them racists, queerphobes, obnoxious womenphobes, muslimphobes, antisciencephobes, ad infinitum, none of which would be true.

I think you need to keep thinking.

And you need to drop your humanist delusions of God being the Holy Santa Claus who is (supposed?) to grant us our wishes and make us happy in this life. This life is important to us because it's all we know but this life is, at best, brief while eternity lasts a very long time. Thus, it's important that we rightly chose where we want to spend our eternity.

NOTE: We should all know that God doesn't condemn anyone to hE77, we each make that eternal choice for ourselves. (John 3:17, 18)

Blackwater

08-13-2019, 06:41 PM

They still are not getting what they need. Many of Christ's followers suffer miserable lives and die.

Tim

It's no surprise that one who half-believes, as you seem to, would take that view. But when Christ speaks of our "needs," I believe He means something different than when you use the word. I believe you use "needs" when what you're really talking about is "wants." You have a right to your opinion, always. But Christ said He came into the world not to bring peace, but to bring a sword. What does a sword do? It divides, and when it does, it's always with the thinnest of "lines," or pathways of its cut. We need to learn a lesson from that, and choose our wording to express as nearly as possible, as exactly and fully as possible. The word "need" can be interpreted many ways, and the most common alternative is to equate it with our "wants." It's often used in this manner, but here, I'm talking about our real needs, those that affect our temporal and eternal relationship with God.

I see it this way also because Christ has always concerned Himself with the things that He knows we REALLY need, and not with those things we merely WANT. Job believed, even through all the horrible trials he suffered through. Are we to think this wasn't to teach all of us what's important, and what's abandonable, and yet allow us to "prosper" in Christ - a thing of inestimable value to us inevitably? He provided a great example for all the billions (trillions?) who've learned and been inspired and motivated by his story. Does anyone believe that Christ didn't reward him commensurately? If so, they just don't know Christ, I believe.

Christ has given us all the info and evidence we need to believe, and to understand the Bible much more deeply than any of us actually have come to understand it. But such a simple lesson as this one escapes far too many! Christ taught us all we need to know, if we'll but simply read it with an open heart, and not a mind that's seeking some "flaw" in the flawless.

cainttype

09-02-2019, 08:46 PM

I believe the concept of “all-knowing”, combined with intimate knowledge in the future of all things (including every individual person’s every yet-to-come decision), added to the idea of being the actual “Creator of all Life” is the main cause of many people who pride themselves on logical, critical thinking to find the belief’s held by many “Christians” as unacceptable fiction.
They question “Free Will” in a situation where others claim each person was created by a power that knew each and every circumstance, choice, and decision they would ever encounter and DESIGNED that person/Life to make every decision they would ever make... Therefore, they know that “Free Will”
would not, can not, exist in such a situation.... And they are right.

It is also the reason that they are offended by this “Plan” idea.
A person finds themself in a tragic situation, possibly several times, and those “All-knowing” promoters can only offer the shallow “It’s his plan, and we don’t understand it...” ridiculousness.
It’s almost a blatant attempt to drive intelligent people away... Why would anyone accept being visited by tragedy as the plan of a God that loves you?
Why would a God that loves everyone, wants them all to join him in Heaven, creates them with full/intimate knowledge of their entire future ever release mass murders, child molesters, evil persons of all manner upon the World.... He wouldn’t.

I do not accept that my future was intimately known when I was created.
I believe my Life was a gift, and what I do with it is my choice. Decisions are mine alone, and were unknown when Life was breathed into me.
I believe Evil exists, and some people choose evil because they WANT too.

There is NO plan....
God did not take your child... Did not create monsters to “teach” us lessons... Does NOT know what decisions I will face or make tomorrow, and did NOT design me with the inclination to choose one way or the other... The choices are MINE, and therefore I have “Free Will”.

Tragedy, evil, and specific knowledge of your future are not part of any plan by God, but how you handle those situations defines you... I believe that is where God’s interest lies.

a danl

09-02-2019, 09:33 PM

2nd timothy 3:16 all scripture is breathed out by god and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

a danl

09-02-2019, 09:54 PM

you need to be in a true bible teaching church where one can learn the truth about god. be very careful because the bible warns of false teachers and there are many out there. that's why you have to read scripture and study so you can know if it is correct. it is by grace thru faith and not by works lest anyone should boost that you are saved. in jesus only.. none other.

cainttype

09-03-2019, 06:23 AM

You should be careful about proclaiming what is truth and where it can only be found. It is my experience that people using such inflammatory language do it because they lack the ability to support their argument with actual Biblical textual understanding.
Suggesting that someone “needs” faith (or grace) simply because their faith is different than yours is somewhat insulting, and would be the tactic of those false teachers you mention.

The Bible is replete with examples that refute the concept of God’s intimate knowledge of the future of all creation. You simply have to open it and read it unbiased to see them.
It is that conflict found within the concept of futuristic knowledge, creation of all beings, and the existence of free will that leads many to question the sanity of those that preach it.
The Calvinist off-shoots that promoted destiny as the preordained outcome of “God’s Plan” recognized it, and accepted it... I don’t.

I have free will because God did not create me to make the choices I do. He did not look into the future and program me do good or bad.
It’s actually very simple... If the Creator of Life knew every circumstance you would ever encounter, and every choice you would ever make, when he created you... You are a product of his design, created to make the choices you do. You have NO free will, you are destined to be the creature you eventually become...Free will does not exist. It is a hoax....
Without free will there is no need for “judgement”, and the whole concept of Christian theology becomes a farce.

Thundarstick

09-03-2019, 07:03 AM

Boy cainttype, I sure wish you'd posted these thoughts into its own thread.

I'm in agreement with you on the subjects you bring up as to why a predefined life and end would simply make God into the great puppet master, however, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the Holy Spirit works in ones life, if you believe he does.

cainttype

09-03-2019, 11:46 AM

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” Galatians 5:22-23.

I believe the Holy Spirit works by invitation only. You have to want “The Gift” to receive it.
That “Gift” is enlightenment to the ways which please God, and compassion for all of God's creatures.
Jesus’ last Commandment covered the most important, and defining Christian trait...

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35

1hole

09-03-2019, 01:50 PM

God exists outside of time and space in ways man cannot truly comprehend. As the creator of all things that have been created he made man and gave him - us - freedom to make our own choices for good or evil BUT that freedom has always been constrained to certain limits.

In the coming seven years of Tribulation the Holy Spirit's present restraints on men will be removed and THEN those who now complain, "Where is your God when all this bad stuff occurs?" will see the difference of living in a world without Him and they won't like it. Thing is, this world is NOT "heaven", heaven on earth will occur after the end of of this dispensation.

IF some men weren't at least somewhat guided then no one, including God, could possible know what happens in the future so the Bible's prophecies couldn't be correct ... but they are! How? That's far above my paygrade but we all know that fulfilled prophecy has been dead-on right. And, free will or not, we have trustworthy information that says God is still the controlling power (Isa 46:10) so that's good enough for me.

BigBore45

09-03-2019, 02:10 PM

anothernewb

09-03-2019, 02:35 PM

Far too many historical coincidences for it to not be true. Seems like you are always hearing new discoveries that coincide,reinforce, or validate the stories.

cainttype

09-03-2019, 03:13 PM

IF some men weren't at least somewhat guided then no one, including God, could possible know what happens in the future so the Bible's prophecies couldn't be correct ... but they are! How? That's far above my paygrade but we all know that fulfilled prophecy has been dead-on right. And, free will or not, we have trustworthy information that says God is still the controlling power (Isa 46:10) so that's good enough for me.

God’s knowledge of his own future plans, i.e. the prophecies given to men about his future plans, is entirely different than intimate knowledge of everything in your future (every circumstance, every decision) a million years before he created you.
I know what I plan to do quite often, but my plans are easier to upset.

Again, Biblical text has multiple examples that demonstrate the lack of futuristic knowledge in the context we are discussing... So we come full circle, is it real, myth, or some of both?

1hole

09-03-2019, 08:48 PM

.... However why would he allow such wrong to children. It seems to take the Choice and free will away. I struggle with belief when I heard of horrible things about children. Something I'll never be able to shake. A true suffering without baptizing yet and without mercy. Not something I'd expect from the rest of the teachings and sacrifices of Jesus.

No need to struggle over dead children, they are for sure in the loving arms of God. Water baptism of unaware children is nothing but denominational rubbish.

God is just and sending children to punishment without justification isn't part of his makeup. So, what you cite isn't a precept of Christianity, it's a lie of men in denominational corruption, an idea probably intended to keep men in constant terror of anyone at all deviating from "the one true church", which is itself a corruption of the truth because anyone who gets to Heaven does so in spite of his denomination, not because of it.

Other than children, salvation is thru a personal faith (trust) in Jesus, in nothing and no one else. Adding anything to individual faith is blasphemy (Eph 2:8-12). Therefore, no matter what someone else may tell you, no denomination has a lock on him. And that IS a foundational precept of the Christian faith.

1hole

09-03-2019, 09:10 PM

God’s knowledge of his own future plans, i.e. the prophecies given to men about his future plans, is entirely different than intimate knowledge of everything in your future (every circumstance, every decision) a million years before he created you.

Ah, but you're trying to understand God as if he's nothing but a really big man and that's not true. God exists outside of man's time and space and there's nothing he doesn't know.

Biblical text has multiple examples that demonstrate the lack of futuristic knowledge in the context we are discussing... So we come full circle, is it real, myth, or some of both?

Well, in the Bible God was speaking to men in terms they could understand. He used metapher, hyperbole, parables, etc. to explain to us what his message really was and he did a very good job of it, IMO. Meaning it's the Bible message that's critical, not the specific words. We men make a mess of it by struggling over every jot and title in our Bibles as if He spoke in English ... but he didn't. That means Bible translators do the best they can but we who read it often get ourselves twisted into mental knots over English words and grammar; that need not be.

Not that it matters but I love the KJV. It's what I grew up with but I know it's the worst version for reading by non-scholars who can't see around the many small errors. (That's why we have so many more modern versions available!)

a danl

09-03-2019, 09:39 PM

ephesians chapter 1 verses 3 thru 10 please take the time to read it

Thundarstick

09-03-2019, 10:28 PM

ephesians chapter 1 verses 3 thru 10 please take the time to read it

The God of Glory
3-6 How blessed is God! And what a blessing he is! He’s the Father of our Master, Jesus Christ, and takes us to the high places of blessing in him. Long before he laid down earth’s foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love. Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!) He wanted us to enter into the celebration of his lavish gift-giving by the hand of his beloved Son.

7-10 Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we’re a free people—free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds. And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free! He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

Eph 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[fn] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

BigBore45

09-03-2019, 10:48 PM

No need to struggle over dead children, they are for sure in the loving arms of God. Water baptism of unaware children is nothing but denominational rubbish.

God is just and sending children to punishment without justification isn't part of his makeup. So, what you cite isn't a precept of Christianity, it's a lie of men in denominational corruption, an idea probably intended to keep men in constant terror of anyone at all deviating from "the one true church", which is itself a corruption of the truth because anyone who gets to Heaven does so in spite of his denomination, not because of it.

Other than children, salvation is thru a personal faith (trust) in Jesus, in nothing and no one else. Adding anything to individual faith is blasphemy (Eph 2:8-12). Therefore, no matter what someone else may tell you, no denomination has a lock on him. And that IS a foundational precept of the Christian faith.
How would this be possible if god granted free will? In lots of these examples he takes before free will is acknowledged or tested. Therefore it is never granted. The one promise we are supposed to have.

cainttype

09-03-2019, 11:25 PM

Ah, but you're trying to understand God as if he's nothing but a really big man and that's not true. God exists outside of man's time and space and there's nothing he doesn't know.

That’s not true.
I am taking the Biblical text to mean exactly what it says, no more, no less.
If nothing is added or deleted, to suit one’s preconceived notions of what it is “supposed to mean”, the Scriptures can take on a whole new light.

A simple observation (one of many).... God reaches anger several times in The Old Testament. It is clearly stated, and part of the interaction between God and man.
Anger is an emotional response to an unexpected stimulus... Why would The Creator, that knew all before time and created every player in the scenario with intimate knowledge of every tiny detail in their lives ever become angry?... After all, he designed them with full knowledge of every experience and choice they would ever encounter....You could never surprise him, because he would have known eons ago about every scenario as men lived them.
Simply put, he wouldn’t.

There’s plenty of examples that obviously display God’s reaction to emotional stimulus. That alone is contradictory to the ideas we’ve been addressing.
I believe I have free will, granted by God.... because he does not know the choices I will make as I make my own way.
When I face death, I will answer for MY choices.... and will have no one else to blame.

Rizzo

09-04-2019, 01:46 PM

Here is my only struggle with belief.

God supposedly give all humans free will yet children that are too young to have any sense of will or even physical ability to do anything die. Now I understand even at the ripe age of 100 years old is but a blip compared to eternity. However why would he allow such wrong to children. It seems to take the Choice and free will away. I struggle with belief when I heard of horrible things about children. Something I'll never be able to shake. A true suffering without baptizing yet and without mercy. Not something I'd expect from the rest of the teachings and sacrifices of Jesus.

It's called Karma - The Law of Cause and Effect.
"You reap what you sow"
We are accountable for all of our actions. Good and bad.
Sometimes accountability does not take place in this lifetime and carries over to our next life.

For a child who is being bullied, for instance, there is a good chance the child was a bully in his/her past life.

Jesus healed a lot of people. Isn't it interesting that after he healed them he would say "...go and sin no more.."?
Jesus knew there was a reason why the person was suffering. It was from actions in a past life.

Oh no, the OP is talking about Reincarnation!!!!
Yup. The Bible is sprinkled with examples of it.

That is why Jesus admonished the apostle who cut off the ear of one of those who came to take Him away.
"No!....You live by the sword, you die from the sword!" - Karma

1hole

09-04-2019, 07:39 PM

Oh no, the OP is talking about Reincarnation!!!!
Yup. The Bible is sprinkled with examples of it.

Oh? I didn't know about any reincarnation! Perhaps you could cite 3-4 of those examples so we can get it straight? Even 1-2 would be a big help.

BigBore45

09-04-2019, 08:30 PM

Oh? I didn't know about any reincarnation! Perhaps you could cite 3-4 of those examples so we can get it straight? Even 1-2 would be a big help.

Yeah I dont recall reiteration either. Karma yes. Not spand over lifetimes.... how would you ever get to heaven if you keep being reincarnated?

Thundarstick

09-04-2019, 10:01 PM

Is my understanding that when we use the word Karma in equivalence to "you reap what you sow", that we are using the word wrong. My understanding of Karma is that it follows one into the next life, as a learning experience. The grace of Jesus is that we don't have to reap what we sow! In Christ we don't "get what we deserve"!
The "live by the sword, die by the sword", is in reference to our actions and violence, along with ones job. The same can be said for police officers and solders today, who truly "live by the gun" and often die by the gun.

Rizzo

09-10-2019, 12:20 PM

Oh? I didn't know about any reincarnation! Perhaps you could cite 3-4 of those examples so we can get it straight? Even 1-2 would be a big help.

Sorry for the late replies as I had to go out of town for several days.

Well, I did give some examples already but one that sticks out in my mind is the prophesy that Elijah would return before the Messiah (Jesus).
Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist to fulfill that part of the prophesy.
When asked by the apostles about it, Jesus confirmed that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist.

There are many documented cases of people having past life experiences.
Knowing specific details of past events and places.

"I didn't know about any reincarnation!"
Well, you should read up about it.
It's a fascinating subject.

Rizzo

09-10-2019, 12:30 PM

Yeah I dont recall reiteration either. Karma yes. Not spand over lifetimes.... how would you ever get to heaven if you keep being reincarnated?

The word is reincarnation, not reiteration.

In general, through your lifetime you may accumulate bad karma from bad actions done.
Let's just called them sins.

You ultimately get to heaven when your slate is clean.
That is, all of your bad karma has been accounted for.
You reincarnate into a new life that will give you an opportunity to address those issues that need to be worked out.

One can conclude that ultimately we all get to heaven, eventually.
It depends on our actions.

Eternal damnation because of our sins? Nope.

Rizzo

09-10-2019, 12:40 PM

.......The grace of Jesus is that we don't have to reap what we sow! In Christ we don't "get what we deserve"! .....

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

1hole

09-10-2019, 02:00 PM

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

I don't think so either, certainly not the way you put it. Many folk, including a lot of supposed Christians, wrongly expect man must "earn" his way to heaven by doing nice things. Not so; see Mat 7:21-23 for those who do good works without an internal heart change. Thing is, IF men could be "good" enough to earn salvation by works, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to sacrifice himself in our stead.

Christians are secure for eternity. But be aware there is no "free ride" for anyone; people who think if they simply claim Christ then they can play "good" and are safe so they can live as they always did are deadly incorrect (see Mat 7:21-24). Only people who are spiritually "born again" and made a new person by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-17) will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it.

Thus is the crux of it; if there is no life change then there has been no new birth and there will be no salvation no matter what they may claim. And a long list of "good works", of itself, proves nothing spiritual.

Thundarstick

09-10-2019, 03:20 PM

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

Rom 6:1-14

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[fn] that we should no longer be slaves to sin-because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

If you care to read for yourself!

1hole

09-10-2019, 03:38 PM

...Well, I did give some examples already but one that sticks out in my mind is the prophesy that Elijah would return before the Messiah (Jesus). Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist to fulfill that part of the prophesy.
When asked by the apostles about it, Jesus confirmed that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist.

There are many things in scripture that are figurative, not literal and those are two. Others include calling Jesus "the lion of the tribe of Judah", the "rock of ages" and a "lamb", none of which are even remotely literal.

"I didn't know about any reincarnation!"
Well, you should read up about it.
It's a fascinating subject.

You're referring to Hinduism and I'm quite familiar with it. Those supposed earlier "lives" you speak are by no means evidence of a reincarnation. Fact is, almost by definition, no Hindu (or anyone else) has any memory of a prior existence. But, and this is the bottom line of those fascinating "reincarnation" stories, many people have been and are indwelt by satanic demons and those demons DO have memories of people they have indwelt in prior times.

All meaning, don't be so quick to absorb all those reincarnation fantasies as if they are true in the sense you think.

Rizzo

09-11-2019, 01:26 PM

There are many things in scripture that are figurative, not literal and those are two. Others include calling Jesus "the lion of the tribe of Judah", the "rock of ages" and a "lamb", none of which are even remotely literal.

The prophesy of Elijah coming before Jesus is figurative, not literal?

The way I see it is if the Bible is wrong about Elijah coming (reincarnated as John the Baptist) then Jesus was not the Messiah.
If the Bible is correct, then John the Baptist was Elijah as Jesus stated.
How do you not see that?

You're referring to Hinduism and I'm quite familiar with it. Those supposed earlier "lives" you speak are by no means evidence of a reincarnation. Fact is, almost by definition, no Hindu (or anyone else) has any memory of a prior existence. But, and this is the bottom line of those fascinating "reincarnation" stories, many people have been and are indwelt by satanic demons and those demons DO have memories of people they have indwelt in prior times.

No, I am not referring to Hinduism.
Although they also believe in reincarnation.

Are you aware that reincarnation was part of the early Christian's (such as the Gnostics) beliefs up to around 500AD?
Most of those old early books were destroyed because it did not fit the current beliefs of those in power.
Later (1945 - 1947) scrolls from Egypt were found and then the Dead Sea scrolls. Those early beliefs resurfaced and described matters such as reincarnation etc. for the "modern world".

Regarding the experience of recollecting a past life is because of demonic possession,........perhaps, but I doubt that all of them are. That's a convenient way of passing them off. Actually I have heard that "explanation" for other things that aren't in the Bible such as some of the things that some yogis in India have demonstrated. (levitation, mind reading, being buried alive for several days, etc., etc.)

Perhaps you have heard of Edgar Cayce who was a devout Christian who read the Bible every day but started having experiences that changed his view on a lot of things, including reincarnation.
He thought that he was perhaps doing the devil's work and it worried him. Ultimately he concluded that all of the good things he was doing (helped heal people with a variety of ailments, etc., etc.) could not be the devil's work but was an instrument of God to help people.

All meaning, don't be so quick to absorb all those reincarnation fantasies as if they are true in the sense you think.

Reincarnation fantasies, eh?
<sigh>
That's actually insulting to my beliefs.

I really do not see a problem for Christians to believe in Karma/Reincarnation.
It seems to threaten their belief system, but it should not.
Like I have stated before, the Bible is sprinkled with examples of both like I have posted.

a danl

09-11-2019, 05:22 PM

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

jesus is the one that paid the price of all your sins only if you believe. only because of the shedding of blood. without blood there is no life. and either one believes the whole bible or they don't and if they don't that makes them an unbeliever. god so loved the world that he gave his only son to die for anyone that believes

1hole

09-11-2019, 08:44 PM

...Perhaps you have heard of Edgar Cayce ....

I've read enough of Cayce's writings to know he was several cards short of a full deck. You do understand that Satan can appear as a dazzeling light or most anything else he may wish and he is a great deceiver.

Reincarnation fantasies, eh?
<sigh>
That's actually insulting to my beliefs.

Insulting? Well, I'm fully accountable for what I said but not for how anyone else cares to read it. And I said nothing insulting.

It seems you believe some of those stories of reincarnation; I don't. Wonder what guides you to believe some re-up stories but not others. ????

There's not much left to say about that.

EDG

09-12-2019, 07:11 AM

If it is not literal then it is subject to your interpretation- based on your thoughts and your judgment right? So who decides what is literal and what is not literal?
At the point it becomes your interpretation based on your thoughts and judgment it ceased to be the word of your god. It just becomes the old time worn word game that you guys play.

There are many things in scripture that are figurative, not literal and those are two. Others include calling Jesus "the lion of the tribe of Judah", the "rock of ages" and a "lamb", none of which are even remotely literal.

You're referring to Hinduism and I'm quite familiar with it. Those supposed earlier "lives" you speak are by no means evidence of a reincarnation. Fact is, almost by definition, no Hindu (or anyone else) has any memory of a prior existence. But, and this is the bottom line of those fascinating "reincarnation" stories, many people have been and are indwelt by satanic demons and those demons DO have memories of people they have indwelt in prior times.

All meaning, don't be so quick to absorb all those reincarnation fantasies as if they are true in the sense you think.

a danl

09-12-2019, 10:27 AM

Rizzo

09-12-2019, 11:34 AM

I've read enough of Cayce's writings to know he was several cards short of a full deck. You do understand that Satan can appear as a dazzeling light or most anything else he may wish and he is a great deceiver.

Insulting? Well, I'm fully accountable for what I said but not for how anyone else cares to read it. And I said nothing insulting.

It seems you believe some of those stories of reincarnation; I don't. Wonder what guides you to believe some re-up stories but not others. ????

There's not much left to say about that.

Well, I originally posted a reply to another poster and you then asked me some questions.
I replied to your questions with examples in the Bible like you asked.

I asked you some questions and you ignored them.
It seems that you are uncomfortable discussing them.

You seem to be the "Don't confuse me with facts!" type of person.

Instead you went off on a tangent about your devil "fantasies".
Yes, nothing left to say about that.

1hole

09-12-2019, 01:44 PM

Well, I originally posted a reply to another poster and you then asked me some questions.
I replied to your questions with examples in the Bible like you asked.

You did. And I responded. You didn't like my response, demon possession, but you sure got it.

I asked you some questions and you ignored them.
It seems that you are uncomfortable discussing them.

You seem to be the "Don't confuse me with facts!" type of person.

Since you have a very fragmented and misunderstood knowledge of scripture and a mind closed to God but not to "reincarnated" spirits we have no common ground to discuss most things. I simply don't enjoy beating my head against rock walls and it would do you no good if I did.

Instead you went off on a tangent about your devil "fantasies".
Yes, nothing left to say about that.

Tangent devil fantasy? I spoke directly to your stated fastination with reincarnation! You believe in reincarnation by spiritual transfers; do you not also believe in a spiritual Satan and his demonic hordes? I do, and I know they're not fantasy.

Shirley McClain would love to discuss your ideas but I don't. I grew out of beating my head against rock walls decades ago. It wouldn't be fun for me and it wouldn't do you a bit of good if I did.

So, I'll add you to my prayer list and leave your heart in the hands of the Holy Spirit.

And there are the facts! :)

Char-Gar

09-12-2019, 02:26 PM

jesus is the one that paid the price of all your sins only if you believe. only because of the shedding of blood. without blood there is no life. and either one believes the whole bible or they don't and if they don't that makes them an unbeliever. god so loved the world that he gave his only son to die for anyone that believes

Question: If Jesus had been strangled or suffocated to death, without any shedding of blood, would there be atonement for sin?

Question: If one believes the Bible contains metaphor and symbolism, is that person an unbeliever?

Question: If a person believes that New Testament teaching takes precident over Old Testament teaching, is that person an unbeliever?

Char-Gar

09-12-2019, 02:32 PM

Just a note: Reincarnation is totally inconsistant with Christian tradition, thought, theology and Scripture. Holding such a belief itself does not make a person non-Christian, all things considered, but such a belief does fall outside the lines.

a danl

09-12-2019, 06:15 PM

Question: If Jesus had been strangled or suffocated to death, without any shedding of blood, would there be atonement for sin?

Question: If one believes the Bible contains metaphor and symbolism, is that person an unbeliever?

Question: If a person believes that New Testament teaching takes precident over Old Testament teaching, is that person an unbeliever?

the new testament is about the NEW covenant because the old has passed away. that all changed when jesus died on the cross and yes he had to shed his blood and by the way as predicted in the old testament none of his bones were broken.so that prophecy would be fulfilled .

dtknowles

09-14-2019, 06:16 PM

I don't think so either, certainly not the way you put it. Many folk, including a lot of supposed Christians, wrongly expect man must "earn" his way to heaven by doing nice things. Not so; see Mat 7:21-23 for those who do good works without an internal heart change. Thing is, IF men could be "good" enough to earn salvation by works, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to sacrifice himself in our stead.

Christians are secure for eternity. But be aware there is no "free ride" for anyone; people who think if they simply claim Christ then they can play "good" and are safe so they can live as they always did are deadly incorrect (see Mat 7:21-24). Only people who are spiritually "born again" and made a new person by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-17) will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it.

Thus is the crux of it; if there is no life change then there has been no new birth and there will be no salvation no matter what they may claim. And a long list of "good works", of itself, proves nothing spiritual.

"will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it." There you go, it is not our acts by which we are saved but by our goodness and that will be shown by our acts even if only God sees them.

Tim

Char-Gar

09-15-2019, 02:51 PM

"will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it." There you go, it is not our acts by which we are saved but by our goodness and that will be shown by our acts even if only God sees them.

Tim

Untrue, we are not saved by our goodness shown by our acts. We are saved because God in his soverign will declares us to be righteous and just. This is what is called grace (God's unmerited favor). Our acts is not why God declares us righteous and just, it is our faith in Jesus Christ. Faith has been the key every since Abraham trusted God to fulfill his promises. This is the consistant message of the New Testament.

dtknowles

09-15-2019, 06:43 PM

Untrue, we are not saved by our goodness shown by our acts. We are saved because God in his soverign will declares us to be righteous and just. This is what is called grace (God's unmerited favor). Our acts is not why God declares us righteous and just, it is our faith in Jesus Christ. Faith has been the key every since Abraham trusted God to fulfill his promises. This is the consistant message of the New Testament.

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

What is the measure of our faith that we might pass or fail?

Is it not how well we modeled the behaviors that Jesus Christ taught?

If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.

Tim

1hole

09-15-2019, 06:44 PM

Untrue, we are not saved by our goodness shown by our acts. We are saved because God in his soverign will declares us ...

Roger that Char! Equating "born again" with being nice and doing good things are important but both can be faked. However, for salvation, God measures the heart (1 Sam 16:7, et al) and THAT can't be faked! The difference may seem to be a slight matter of semantics, and I guess it is, but there's a big difference in the spiritual focus and that difference makes all the difference to God!

Under the new Covenant (faith/trust in Jesus as savior) IF we are saved by the Grace of God - and that IS the only way - and IF God's grace means "unearned/unmerited favor" (love) - and it does - then everything good that Christians do properly brings credit to Him and not ourselves; meaning credit to God IS our goal, or at least it should be.

Those "good" people who have spiritually fooled everyone, often even themselves, by being good and doing good stuff are the ones Jesus sadly speaks to in Mat 7:21-27. "Depart from me, I never knew you" are perhaps the saddest words in the Bible.

a danl

09-15-2019, 06:55 PM

you should be reading your bible . all your questions are answered there in the word of god

Char-Gar

09-15-2019, 10:59 PM

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

What is the measure of our faith that we might pass or fail?

Tim

Yes, it is just our faith. What is the measure? God searchs our hearts and minds and he knows.

I do see where you are coming from. James in Chpt 2 says "faith without works are dead". However James does not equate works with salvation. When he speaks of "dead faith", he is not talking about salvation, but about a faith that does nobody any good. He calls Christians to a higher standard.

1hole

09-16-2019, 10:48 AM

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

What is the measure of our faith that we might pass or fail?
Tim

Those are good questions and the answers gets taught wrongly much more often than not. I'll ask you to read John 3:16-19 first, it will specificly answer your question of when and for what we are eternally saved or lost. Note there is no "pass-fail" judgement on the issue, we decide that for ourselves and it applies at the moment of our physical death (there's no halfway sweat house or purgatory, etc.).

So, we will each be judged but NOT for heaven vs. hell as it's commonly (wrongly) taught. It's important to know that all of humanity will have been physically resurrected in immortal bodies before either judgement, the saved to eternal glory and the lost to immortal degeneration and punishment "... where their worm (maggots) dieth not ..."

The first court is the judgement seat of Christ. It's called the "bema" seat judgement for those who are already heavenly bound. It's NOT about heaven or hell, it's only for rewards for a life poorly or well lived. No one knows what those rewards will be but we can be sure they will be meaningful.

Next is God's final "court" before the Great White Throne for their sentencing judgements. Again, it's NOT about judging people for heaven or hell, only those already on their way to hell will stand before the Great White Throne. There, the previously judged (bema seat) saved people will be present when the records of the lost are read and judgements will be based on their mortal lives. (You will want to be in the sentencing jury box there, not in the dock.)

The whole thing is clearly encapsulated in John 3:17-19 but in a long life I've never heard a single sermon based on those three verses!

Char-Gar

09-16-2019, 01:50 PM

The whole thing is clearly encapsulated in John 3:17-19 but in a long life I've never heard a single sermon based on those three verses!

I have preached thousands of Sermons, but not one on that material. I have however taught John and every other New Testament book in detailed Bible Studies more than once and that material was indeed covered.

In my thinking, Sermons and Bible studies are different critters and the content is therefore somewhat different. A sermon is to encourage, comfort, challenge and educate. A Bible study is to educate, encourage, comfort and challenge. Same general content but with different emphasis. At least this has been my approach to this, although I know others do it different ways.

As Pastor has several functions. He/She comforts the sick and afflicted, encourage the people to continue with life and faith, challenges people to a deeper faith and teaching them about the Christian faith. He/She also has a "priestly" function as well, i.e. maintains the rituals, times and seasons of the faith. He/She is also the CEO of a church and sees that the bills are paid and the doors remain open. The last one is the true pain in the wazoo, the rest while not easy are rewarding for all concerned.

T_McD

09-16-2019, 01:54 PM

If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.

Tim

Indeed.

1hole

09-16-2019, 03:35 PM

.... If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.
Tim

Not really so, Tim. Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin. Jesus himself called ultra-religious but unloving Pharisees a den of vipers; we aren't told what his emotions toward them was but he obviously didn't much care for hyper-religious men who loved to self rightously puff their chests out and be critical towards others as lesser beings. (We even get a bit of that here!)

I have no information that you don't have but I doubt Jesus frowns very much when we "hate" people like scam artists who rob the poor. Or rapists, especially so for child rapists. Or bullies. Etc.

But whatever, at worst our harsh emotions are just another sin. None of us are perfect nor will we ever be on this side of eternity. Straight from the Lord's mouth, there is one single sin that cannot be forgiven and personal outrage isn't it no matter what some self appointed modern Pharisee may try to assure you (see Mk 3:28-30, Mat 12:31-32).

Ickisrulz

09-16-2019, 03:58 PM

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.

Tim

People are complex. We often cannot help what is in our heart (i.e., how we feel). But, we can control how we act. We can despise someone and still act for their benefit. Biblical love is big on action rather than emotion.

Thundarstick

09-16-2019, 05:11 PM

Emotions are trainable as well as what you do with those emotions. ie Be angry and sin not, slow to anger, not a striker.

T_McD

09-16-2019, 05:32 PM

People are complex. We often cannot help what is in our heart (i.e., how we feel). But, we can control how we act. We can despise someone and still act for their benefit. Biblical love is big on action rather than emotion.

I can accept that. Actions (or lack thereof) are of utmost importance.

dtknowles

09-16-2019, 06:55 PM

Yes, it is just our faith. What is the measure? God searchs our hearts and minds and he knows.

I do see where you are coming from. James in Chpt 2 says "faith without works are dead". However James does not equate works with salvation. When he speaks of "dead faith", he is not talking about salvation, but about a faith that does nobody any good. He calls Christians to a higher standard.

When God searches our hearts and minds, what might he find or not find that makes the difference.

"faith without works" How could you love Jesus and not help the poor as much as you can? Is it really true faith if you don't take it to heart and invest yourself in good works?

Tim

dtknowles

09-16-2019, 07:10 PM

Those are good questions and the answers gets taught wrongly much more often than not. I'll ask you to read John 3:16-19 first, it will specificly answer your question of when and for what we are eternally saved or lost. Note there is no "pass-fail" judgement on the issue, we decide that for ourselves and it applies at the moment of our physical death (there's no halfway sweat house or purgatory, etc.).

So, we will each be judged but NOT for heaven vs. hell as it's commonly (wrongly) taught. It's important to know that all of humanity will have been physically resurrected in immortal bodies before either judgement, the saved to eternal glory and the lost to immortal degeneration and punishment "... where their worm (maggots) dieth not ..."

The first court is the judgement seat of Christ. It's called the "bema" seat judgement for those who are already heavenly bound. It's NOT about heaven or hell, it's only for rewards for a life poorly or well lived. No one knows what those rewards will be but we can be sure they will be meaningful.

Next is God's final "court" before the Great White Throne for their sentencing judgements. Again, it's NOT about judging people for heaven or hell, only those already on their way to hell will stand before the Great White Throne. There, the previously judged (bema seat) saved people will be present when the records of the lost are read and judgements will be based on their mortal lives. (You will want to be in the sentencing jury box there, not in the dock.)

The whole thing is clearly encapsulated in John 3:17-19 but in a long life I've never heard a single sermon based on those three verses!

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Are these the verses you think encapsulated salvation?

I seen nothing about bema or White throne.

What does "Whoever believes in him is not condemned" mean, what does it mean to believe in Jesus? Doesn't it mean doing the things that Jesus would want us to do?

Tim

dtknowles

09-16-2019, 07:17 PM

Not really so, Tim. Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin. Jesus himself called ultra-religious but unloving Pharisees a den of vipers; we aren't told what his emotions toward them was but he obviously didn't much care for hyper-religious men who loved to self rightously puff their chests out and be critical towards others as lesser beings. (We even get a bit of that here!)

I have no information that you don't have but I doubt Jesus frowns very much when we "hate" people like scam artists who rob the poor. Or rapists, especially so for child rapists. Or bullies. Etc.

But whatever, at worst our harsh emotions are just another sin. None of us are perfect nor will we ever be on this side of eternity. Straight from the Lord's mouth, there is one single sin that cannot be forgiven and personal outrage isn't it no matter what some self appointed modern Pharisee may try to assure you (see Mk 3:28-30, Mat 12:31-32).

Yes, all but one sin can be forgiven but don't you have to repent other sins for them to be forgiven?

"just another sin" that is pretty cavalier. That is also a slippery slope, willfully and knowingly sinning is an evil unto itself and a mark that you don't love Jesus.

Sinning with the knowledge that you are going to ask for forgiveness might be unforgiveable. Before you can repent don't you need to be truly sorry for your sins, God will see you for what you are.

Tim

dtknowles

09-16-2019, 07:22 PM

People are complex. We often cannot help what is in our heart (i.e., how we feel). But, we can control how we act. We can despise someone and still act for their benefit. Biblical love is big on action rather than emotion.

You can feel bad about the hate you can't get out of your heart and pray for help. Not acting on your hate will lessen the harm making repentance and restitution that much easier.

Tim

dtknowles

09-16-2019, 07:29 PM

Not really so, Tim. Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin. Jesus himself called ultra-religious but unloving Pharisees a den of vipers; we aren't told what his emotions toward them was but he obviously didn't much care for hyper-religious men who loved to self rightously puff their chests out and be critical towards others as lesser beings. (We even get a bit of that here!)

I have no information that you don't have but I doubt Jesus frowns very much when we "hate" people like scam artists who rob the poor. Or rapists, especially so for child rapists. Or bullies. Etc.

But whatever, at worst our harsh emotions are just another sin. None of us are perfect nor will we ever be on this side of eternity. Straight from the Lord's mouth, there is one single sin that cannot be forgiven and personal outrage isn't it no matter what some self appointed modern Pharisee may try to assure you (see Mk 3:28-30, Mat 12:31-32).

Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin."

Jesus said we are all brothers and aren't we even supposed to love our enemies?

You seem to put a lot of stock in sins being forgiven. Habitual sinning even if they can be forgiven does not seem right.

Tim

dtknowles

09-16-2019, 07:40 PM

My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.

Our sins are an offense against God, Who is perfect goodness and love. We regret our sins not just because left unconfessed and unrepented, they can prevent us from entering Heaven, but because we recognize that those sins are our rebellion against our Creator.

Tim

Ickisrulz

09-16-2019, 07:47 PM

You can feel bad about the hate you can't get out of your heart and pray for help. Not acting on your hate will lessen the harm making repentance and restitution that much easier.

Tim

You place a lot of emphasis on feelings. What if I don't feel bad for the hatred in my heart? Sometimes we just cannot help the way we feel about someone. We can always control the way we act.

Let's replace hatred as the hypothetical with lust. Can a young man ever rid his heart of lust? No way! The lust will be there, but can be kept in check with the will.

dtknowles

09-16-2019, 08:05 PM

You place a lot of emphasis on feelings. What if I don't feel bad for the hatred in my heart? Sometimes we just cannot help the way we feel about someone. We can always control the way we act.

Let's replace hatred as the hypothetical with lust. Can a young man ever rid his heart of lust? No way! The lust will be there, but can be kept in check with the will.

I would put acts as more important than feelings. Feelings still matter and I think are still possibly sinful.

If we have sinful feelings we should work to get rid of them.

Words are tricky when trying to describe feelings. Lust, is it just a strong desire or something more and worse.

Hate, is it just a strong dislike or something more and worse.

I don't think desire or dislike are sins but I believe that lust and hate are sins and hate and lust can be taught and they can be untaught.

Others here will tell you that all sins are equal, I will tell you that I don't believe that is true and I believe evil thoughts are not as bad as evil deeds.

Someone might come and quote scripture to correct me but I take scripture with a grain of salt.

Tim

1hole

09-16-2019, 08:37 PM

Jesus said we are all brothers and aren't we even supposed to love our enemies?

Man, you ask good questions that want long answers and I'm not a long answer writer! But, I'll try.

Jesus spoke to fellow Jews and they were indeed his brothers. And, in the larger context, we agree that all mankind are our brothers in a sense. And who/why some are our "enemies" can vary greatly. But knowing that doesn't require we apply love loosely and without exception. I mean some people are really evil and evil must be recognised and stopped.

You seem to put a lot of stock in sins being forgiven. Habitual sinning even if they can be forgiven does not seem right.

My comment about our hatred for evil people is "just another sin" isn't a casual thought. I'm recognizing how men want to grade sin on a sliding scale ranging from "not too bad" to "very bad" where God sees all sin as absolute. God requires absolute perfection in us and knows we can't attain that no matter how hard we may try. That was the Old Testament law and we failed the test, so Jesus came as a man and lived ONE absolutely perfect life and, by his sacrifice for us, we Christians have, by faith in Him, been accorded his perfect record; that's a really good thing. So, YES, I do put a great deal of value on Jesus' shed blood covering ALL of our sins; it cannot be otherwise if we are to be in heaven with God! Thus, a lot of what seems "right" to us is not what God has ordained for us.

You are correct that no one can live in constant sin without cost. We may fool ourselves and those around us about being "born again, a new creature in Christ" but our "fruits" will show the truth. Ergo, no, we can't really love and see the needs of others all around us indifferently. Some Christians will and do continue in a pet sin(s) but it seems that gets punished here, in this life.

T_McD

09-16-2019, 08:57 PM

Someone might come and quote scripture to correct me but I take scripture with a grain of salt.

Tim

You seem to have the gist of scripture better than most here.

Char-Gar

09-17-2019, 10:24 AM

You seem to have the gist of scripture better than most here.

Not true! It is an old scoffers ploy to lift words from scripture out of context to create a false contridiction. They try and imply that an apple and an orange are really two apples. Only the scripturally ignorant are taken in by this and they swallow it hook, line and sinker.

Of course you are a scoffer yoursef, so you want to affirm his nonsense. Often scoffers form a "tag team" to undermine the faith of Christians. If such folks were not trying to undermind the faith of others, they would just think and let think and not throw this misleading stuff out there. Such folks are self condemmed by their own words.

1hole

09-17-2019, 12:23 PM

Others here will tell you that all sins are equal, I will tell you that I don't believe that is true and I believe evil thoughts are not as bad as evil deeds.

And thoughts alone without are not as bad as thoughts committed because the first is a sin against God and ourselves but the second adds harms others. But, from a spiritual view, that recognition misses the point; God requires perfection, not "I do the best I can." We simply cannot accomplish perfection; sin is born in us. No one has to teach a baby to rage in selfish anger or a bigger child to lie, it's in them and the spiritual goal of life long perfection is destroyed before any child knows his right hand from his left. Thus, the ONLY way for anyone to attain the required perfection is for Jesus' own record of perfection to be accorded to us, one soul at a time. The ONLY way for us to gain that attoning record is to believe in - i.e., trust in, cling to, rely on - Messiah! So, are all sins equal? No, certainly not, but it makes no difference spiritually. Therefore all sins are the same in effect and the only "cure" for all sin is the same.

Someone might come and quote scripture to correct me but I take scripture with a grain of salt.

Tim, that's a mistake because it's not scripture that's faulty, it's men's misunderstandings of scripture that are faulty. The Bible is a big, thick book and there is a LOT of stuff in it, much of it in bits here and bits there, not all nicely clustered together in one place. That means people who have only studied fragments of the Bible only get fragmented understandings. The only cure for that is to study the whole Book and THEN reconcile the parts that first appear illogical and/or contradictory. In other words, let scripture define scripture. You need to get more of scripture, not less, and prayerfully study to see truth.

Do that and you can learn to lovingly overlook the mistakes of well meaning people who misquote parts of scripture. It can get to be easy to do because MANY of their misunderstandings are mostly harmless in the long run.

Remember that God measures the hearts of men for good or evil, not for their imprecise understandings of scripture! Nor does God have a humanistic pass/fail checklist for grading our sins on a comparative curve.

Bottom line, either our sins - all of them - are covered by the blood of Jesus or they are not covered at all.

Char-Gar

09-17-2019, 01:20 PM

T_McD

09-17-2019, 02:49 PM

1hole

09-17-2019, 04:03 PM

So absent mind reading, I can judge folks by their actions. Taken further, if your actions aren’t noticeably different from others then it would seem your mind isn’t different either.

Ah, Mac, you see the world through distorted glasses.

Yes you can, and do, judge people anyway you wish. And blindly define people you don't know and attribute whatever motives with whatever imagined justification makes you feel good about your smug self. But your posted opinions and judgements matter not to anyone because you're stumbling around in spiritual darkness and 'bout 30 degrees off vertical.

Before leaping to judgement of others about how imperfect they may be, do you think it might be wise to know at least a little about how THEY were before coming to Christ, instead of grading everyone according to your own rigid (and highly inflated?) self opinion? I mean, you may have attained perfection but the rest of us are still struggling along and trying to do better every day.

T_McD

09-17-2019, 08:53 PM

Not talking directly to anyone.

My premise is that the most reliable way to judge the mind is based on actions.
And if folks actions are similar, their minds are as well.

Char-Gar

09-17-2019, 10:30 PM

Not talking directly to anyone.

My premise is that the most reliable way to judge the mind is based on actions.
And if folks actions are similar, their minds are as well.

If a man walks through a door, there could be scores of reasons why. If a man drives a car from point A to point be, there could be scores of reasons why. If a man buys a gun, there could be scores of reasons why, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Actions may be constant, but the thinking behind them vary considerably. Trying to imput thinking to an action or actions may be a fools errand.The best way to determin thinking is to ask.

bmortell

09-18-2019, 01:09 AM

holy cow there's 10 pages of people fighting each others quotes now

Thundarstick

09-18-2019, 05:45 AM

holy cow there's 10 pages of people fighting each others quotes now

Yep, says it rite the at the bottom of the page, and we just advanced it two more post.:shock:

1hole

09-18-2019, 09:26 AM

holy cow there's 10 pages of people fighting each others quotes now

Guilty. I guess.

"Fighting" seems a bit overstated tho. Differences, even strong differences, aren't always equal to "fighting" are they? But, whatever spin you want to put on it is fine with me.

I often use quotes in my posts to avoid confusion by focusing specifically on what I'm addressing, point by point, accurately and therefore fairly without having to repeat it - or spin it - myself, as I've done here; is that bad?

Char-Gar

09-18-2019, 12:37 PM

Not directed anyone in particular, but for those willing to consider it, I am reminded of Psalm 14: 1-3 ...

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The Lord looked down from Heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The scoffers and God deniers are in fact idolaters. Some of them make science their highest authority and judge all things by science and hence in fact worship science. Others of them worship their own mind and reason, making themselves their highest authority. Both types bow to human knowledge, rather than a creator God who made the universe and all that is in it.

Char-Gar

09-18-2019, 12:44 PM

A good seminar in Christian Apologetics is always a useful instrument when faced with those "tag teams". ;)

I was well schooled in Christian Apologetics in Seminary. However I choose not to engage scoffers and God deniers, in an intellectual fencing match, hoping to score points. These folks will not change their minds by information or intellectual argumentation. They are as your mentioned in you scripture quote above. They have lived so long in spiritual darkness, they have lost the ability to see God and spiritual matters in general. I much prefer to expose them for what they are, to minimize the damage they can do to others who are not spiritually blind.

The battle between good and evil is very real and should be recongnized for what it is. It is a battle and not a debating society. This is my essential problem with Christian Academics as people, they love the mental gymnastics, and become so Heavenly they are of no earthly good.

Anti-Christian bias is rampant in this country and even shows up on rinky-ding internet boards of all types. Christians bemoan the rise of this bias, but don't challenge it, when they opportunity appears in front of their noses.

Of course, as you say, not directed toward anybody in particular.

Thundarstick

09-18-2019, 08:57 PM

I was well schooled in Christian Apologetics in Seminary. However I choose not to engage scoffers and God deniers, in an intellectual fencing match, hoping to score points. These folks will not change their minds by information or intellectual argumentation. They are as your mentioned in you scripture quote above. They have lived so long in spiritual darkness, they have lost the ability to see God and spiritual matters in general. I much prefer to expose them for what they are, to minimize the damage they can do to others who are not spiritually blind.

The battle between good and evil is very real and should be recongnized for what it is. It is a battle and not a debating society. This is my essential problem with Christian Academics as people, they love the mental gymnastics, and become so Heavenly they are of no earthly good.

Anti-Christian bias is rampant in this country and even shows up on rinky-ding internet boards of all types. Christians bemoan the rise of this bias, but don't challenge it, when they opportunity appears in front of their noses.

Of course, as you say, not directed toward anybody in particular.

I, for one, appreciate the good works you have shown fourth here, and do indeed take courage from them! I'm of the opinion that church leadership is doing (has done) a very poor job of educating Christians in how to fight the good fight! I'm amazed by the number of people who attend services all their lives, yet don't even know our own scriptures, much less how to defend against, and call out the false teachers, unbelievers, and scoffers! Take courage brothers and sisters, fight the good fight, keep the faith, but study so you know what you are fighting for, or against!

Thundarstick

09-18-2019, 09:02 PM

Not directed anyone in particular, but for those willing to consider it, I am reminded of Psalm 14: 1-3 ...

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The Lord looked down from Heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Words such as these inspired scripture are the reason so many are content to be their own god! Greater than that, is the implication that NONE, THAT'S NO ONE, will be justified before God by their own merits!

Char-Gar

09-18-2019, 09:40 PM

I, for one, appreciate the good works you have shown fourth here, and do indeed take courage from them! I'm of the opinion that church leadership is doing (has done) a very poor job of educating Christians in how to fight the good fight! I'm amazed by the number of people who attend services all their lives, yet don't even know our own scriptures, much less how to defend against, and call out the false teachers, unbelievers, and scoffers! Take courage brothers and sisters, fight the good fight, keep the faith, but study so you know what you are fighting for, or against!

Very true, American Christianity has grown weak and flabby and wants to make nice with evil rather than oppose it.

Char-Gar

09-19-2019, 02:18 PM

Most certainly and why I offer that scripture for the reflection of those willing to consider it.

As to Char-Gar's observation that modern American Christianity has become weak; it has and I'd suggest for those whom wish to offset the psychological-intellectual effects produced by the secular attack (most often by the far Left) upon Christianity, I'd highly recommend the writings of Blaise Pascal, Aquinas and Whitehead.

Most notably, Pascal, a scientist, mathematician, and philosopher who also defended the scientific method, clarified prior research by Torricelli in the field of fluid dynamics) defended Christianity and science (after all, it is one of the instruments that God gave us) offers some sage advice on using ''diplomacy'' to counter the positions of those attacking Christianity. And why not? Using "diplomacy" to beguile evil before defeating it is another instrument used in apologetics and it's a worthy one at that. Additionally, Pascal offers the pragmatic argument that,

Finally, we must always bear in mind when defending Christianity that all men (and women, too, of course) are endowed with "free will" and the ability to choose for themselves between "good" and "evil". Bearing this in mind, we must sometimes take our leave of those who refuse/deny God's love and gift of salvation in search of those who will accept it with the proviso that those who refuse/deny God's love may have evil in their hearts and may attack us as we take our leave of them:

I find myself in agreement. I would add to your list "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and his collected essays "God in the Dock". You list is indeed a good one. That said, I am not sanguine that those on this board who like to attack faith in general, will take the time to examine the intellectual underpinnings of the Christian faith. In 2,000 years, many have thought through the rather superficial notions raised by the faithless on this board. They ASSUME that faith has no intellectual basis and go from there.

Thundarstick

09-19-2019, 05:30 PM

In 2,000 years, many have thought through the rather superficial notions raised by the faithless on this board. They ASSUME that faith has no intellectual basis and go from there.

A more true statement had probably never been uttered on this sub forum! I've repeated over and over that, "I don't have a blind faith!".

1hole

09-19-2019, 08:39 PM

Any Christian who seriously says he has "blind faith" is either brand new to the family of God or hasn't been paying attention.

dtknowles

09-20-2019, 02:24 PM

Can't have an evil deed without first having an evil thought. Deeds good and bad deeds proceed from thoughts, that is why Scripture tells us to have within us the "mind of Christ". Conforming our minds is the first step, to conformig our lives to Cruciform living.

This is why in the Christian scripture and faith, a evil deed is a bad as an evil thought. I should think this would be clear basic logic, but perhaps it is not to scoffers and persons who take scripture "with a grain of salt".

Not every evil thought leads to evil actions. Take as an example of the honor system road side stand. Stacks of corn on the cob and a sign that says $3 a dozen, nobody in sight just the stand, the corn, the sign and the money box. Many customers probably have the evil thought that they could just take the corn and not pay. Some might have the evil thought that they could take the money box or bust it open and take the money. The stand is there because regardless of evil thoughts almost everyone does the right thing. Is the evil thought of just taking the corn and not paying as bad as taking the corn and not paying or taking more corn than you paid for? I am guilty of having those evil thoughts but I always paid for all the corn I took.

Tim

Char-Gar

09-20-2019, 03:28 PM

Is the evil thought of just taking the corn and not paying as bad as taking the corn and not paying or taking more corn than you paid for? I am guilty of having those evil thoughts but I always paid for all the corn I took.

Tim

"AS BAD AS"...the thought and the action are both bad, so no need to try and make one grey and the other black, as neither are white. The thought is not innocent and is the expression of a mind that thinks evil. Evil is evil, whether in thought or deed. Christians are called to "Have within you the mind of Christ" and not merely refrain from doing bad things.

I do realize that this is Christian thinking and would be totally opaque to you. It appears to me that your personal ethics does not consider what a person is, only what a person does. In Christian thinking good and evil can exist quite apart from what people do. To think that evil only exists through evil actions, grossly misunderstands Christian morality and the very nature of evil itself.

lefty o

09-20-2019, 03:44 PM

"AS BAD AS"...the thought and the action are both bad, so no need to try and make one grey and the other black, as neither are white. The thought is not innocent and is the expression of a mind that thinks evil. Evil is evil, whether in thought or deed. Christians are called to "Have within you the mind of Christ" and not merely refrain from doing bad things.

I do realize that this is Christian thinking and would be totally opaque to you. It appears to me that your personal ethics does not consider what a person is, only what a person does. In Christian thinking good and evil can exist quite apart from what people do. To think that evil only exists through evil actions, grossly misunderstands Christian morality and the very nature of evil itself.

that is some seriously convoluted thinking trying to separate bad actions from religion.

Char-Gar

09-20-2019, 04:03 PM

that is some seriously convoluted thinking trying to separate bad actions from religion.

You missed the point entirely. I was not talking about religion, but the reality of good and evil and how it impacts humans. Good and evil exist in this world and are in conflict, regardless of whether a person is "religious" or not. The various religions do not create good or evil, but only offer notions about where it came from, how it impacts people, how people react to it and how they cope with it.

Again, to the totally secular person, this is opaque and makes zero sense, as they don't acknowledge the existance of ether good or evil. Good and evil do not go away because some people won't recognize them. This thinking is far from convoluted, but is the foundation of Judeo-Christian thinking. Everything starts from there.

Good is anything God says is good and evil is anything God says is evil. If one does not believe in a God who is the supreme moral authority, then nothing much matters and anything related to God as supreme moral authority will be viewed as convoluted thinking, opaque and total BS.

For the Godless secular person, bad is what society punishes you for doing. Good is anything you can get by with, without being punished.

lefty o

09-20-2019, 04:22 PM

yeah, i didnt miss anything. doh!!!!

dtknowles

09-20-2019, 04:25 PM

…….."Either Christianity is true or it is false. If you bet that it is true, and you believe in God and submit to Him, then if it is true, you've gained God, Heaven, and all else. If it is false, you've lost nothing, but you shall have had a good life marked by peace and the illusion that ultimately, everything makes sense. If you bet that Christianity is not true, and it is false, you've lost nothing. But if you bet that it is false, and it turns out to be true, you've lost everything and you get to spend eternity in Hell." …….:

If your Christian faith is based on that rationale and not a true love of Jesus Christ as God will you not be condemned by your true heart?

If you choose Christianity for practical reasons and not by true faith will you still be saved?

Might that be one of the biggest issues with American Christianity

Tim

dtknowles

09-20-2019, 04:30 PM

"AS BAD AS"...the thought and the action are both bad, so no need to try and make one grey and the other black, as neither are white. The thought is not innocent and is the expression of a mind that thinks evil. Evil is evil, whether in thought or deed. Christians are called to "Have within you the mind of Christ" and not merely refrain from doing bad things.

I do realize that this is Christian thinking and would be totally opaque to you. It appears to me that your personal ethics does not consider what a person is, only what a person does. In Christian thinking good and evil can exist quite apart from what people do. To think that evil only exists through evil actions, grossly misunderstands Christian morality and the very nature of evil itself.

If you do right because when confronted with temptation you choose good for goodness sake is that not different than when confronted with temptation you only choose good because you fear punishment?

It is not just what you do but why. That is why it takes looking into your true heart to determine if you are good or not.

Tim

dtknowles

09-20-2019, 04:38 PM

You missed the point entirely. I was not talking about religion, but the reality of good and evil and how it impacts humans. Good and evil exist in this world and are in conflict, regardless of whether a person is "religious" or not. The various religions do not create good or evil, but only offer notions about where it came from, how it impacts people, how people react to it and how they cope with it.

Again, to the totally secular person, this is opaque and makes zero sense, as they don't acknowledge the existance of ether good or evil. Good and evil do not go away because some people won't recognize them. This thinking is far from convoluted, but is the foundation of Judeo-Christian thinking. Everything starts from there.

Good is anything God says is good and evil is anything God says is evil. If one does not believe in a God who is the supreme moral authority, then nothing much matters and anything related to God as supreme moral authority will be viewed as convoluted thinking, opaque and total BS.

For the Godless secular person, bad is what society punishes you for doing. Good is anything you can get by with, without being punished.

Most secular people acknowledge good and evil they just don't think a particular Religion is the ultimate authority on right and wrong but instead believe that right and wrong are inherent in creation. They believe in unalienable rights that are inherent in humanity. They believe if you cause no harm you deserve no punishment. Punishment suits the crime, lesser harm deserves lesser punishments. Not all sins are equal.

Tim

dtknowles

09-20-2019, 04:52 PM

…….For the Godless secular person, bad is what society punishes you for doing. Good is anything you can get by with, without being punished.

You do not understand secular philosophy. Bad is that which causes harm to society or others, just because you can get away with it does not make it right it just means you were not properly punished. Secular Justice is a challenge, it errs on the side on not punishing the innocent so often the guilty go unpunished.

Christian Justice would seem to believe that everyone is guilty but the guilty can go unpunished if they have faith in Jesus Christ.

It would seem Secular Justice is more benevolent than Christian Justice. Damn the petty thief for eternity if he does not have faith in Jesus Christ. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is not having faith in Jesus Christ. Rapists, Murderers, those guilty of crimes against humanity can be forgiven if the accept Jesus Christ.

Christians are not saved by good works nor condemned by evil works all that matters is your faith in Jesus Christ.

Tim

Char-Gar

09-21-2019, 09:39 PM

If you do right because when confronted with temptation you choose good for goodness sake is that not different than when confronted with temptation you only choose good because you fear punishment?

It is not just what you do but why. That is why it takes looking into your true heart to determine if you are good or not.

Tim

You do not understand even the basic tenants of Christian thought and faith. Let me try it by the numbers. You don't have to agree, but it would be nice if you understood. For reference read Paul's letter to the church at Rome. It is a masterpiece of Christian thought and Paul's magnum opus.

1. The human race and everbody that is in it has been corrupted with sin set in motion by first man (Adam), who chose to reject God as the supreme moral authority.
2. Therefore every human has become slaves to sin, which results in God's judgment which in turn produced physical and spirtual dead.
3. In contrast to the old Adam, Jesus becomes the new Adam who lives in faithful obedience to God and Jesus has given us a gift of his sacrficial love so that all other may join him in the New Humanity. Jesus stands at the head of this new humanity.
4. No human prior to Jesus was righteous (right and just), but through faith in Jesus as Messiah, God justifies us (declares us just and righteous).
5. This has zero with do with resistance to temptation.
6. As part of the New Humanity we are called live transformed lives consistant with that of Jesus.
7. The power to live this life is external to us and comes from The Spirit. It is a process of inner renewal which some call "growth in grace".

Bottom line and direct response to your post is resisting temptation has nothing to do with this dynamic. The "true heart" of every human has been corrupted by sin and by faith in Jesus can be forgiven and declared right and just and them we move on to growing in grace with the goal of seeing all things as Christ sees them. He became as we are, so we can become as He is.

When I read your stuff, I can smell the strong odor of humanism, which is inconsistant with the faith based Christin faith.

Again, I don't expect you to accept and agree, but at least the lines have been drawn with a rather bold pen. What you do with this information is up to you, but I won't debate it with you. Go whistling down the road of humanism with a happy grin on your face and see where that road leads. It is your life and your soul, do as you wish. As for me, I am going down that road with Jesus.

Char-Gar

09-21-2019, 09:56 PM

Christian Justice would seem to believe that everyone is guilty but the guilty can go unpunished if they have faith in Jesus Christ.

It would seem Secular Justice is more benevolent than Christian Justice. Damn the petty thief for eternity if he does not have faith in Jesus Christ. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is not having faith in Jesus Christ. Rapists, Murderers, those guilty of crimes against humanity can be forgiven if the accept Jesus Christ.

Christians are not saved by good works nor condemned by evil works all that matters is your faith in Jesus Christ.

Tim

Well close but no ceegar! These crimes against humanity, that you enumerate, are the product of sin. Sin is understood as rejection of God as the supreme moral authority. That sin dynamic can be reversed by faith in Jesus and we are declared without guilt (justified) and therefore do not come under judgment/punishment.

You don't include God's grace in your thinking. This grace is God's UNMERITED favor. It isn't about justice, it is about grace.

"And can it be, that I should gain an interest in the Savior blood? Died He for me, who bought him pain? For me to Him to death persued? Amazing love, how can it be that thou my God should die for me?" .....And Can It Be....hymn by Charles WEsley

"Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved wretch like me. I once was lost, but now am found, was blind and now I see"....Amazing Grace...hymn by John Newton

It is all about God's grace and not resistance, guilt, heart purity or any of that other stuff. It is all about grace...all about grace. I for one don't want God to give me what I deserve, I want grace not justice. I want what I do not deserve, but yet it has been given freely to me through my faith in Jesus.

Nobody in their right mind wants to be be given what they deserve based on their thoughts or actions.

Thundarstick

09-22-2019, 08:01 AM

CG,TS Not an, I could not have said it better, but I could never expressed it as well! Amen and Amen!

BeeMan

09-22-2019, 08:45 AM

And Can It Be - a favorite hymn for me and my late Dad. The truth of which it tells is both a comfort and a powerful witness.

1hole

09-22-2019, 09:18 AM

...
Christian Justice would seem to believe that everyone is guilty but the guilty can go unpunished if they have faith in Jesus Christ.

The implication of that statement is silly. Guilty go unpunished? Guilty of what gets unpunished where? If you think Christians absolve anyone for any earthly crime if he claims to "believe" you're on a different planet! "An eye for an eye", etc. means to make the punishment fit the crime, not there will be no punishment at all.

It would seem Secular Justice is more benevolent than Christian Justice. Damn the petty thief for eternity if he does not have faith in Jesus Christ. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is not having faith in Jesus Christ. Rapists, Murderers, those guilty of crimes against humanity can be forgiven if the accept Jesus Christ.

"The secular legal system has no goal other than to protect the establishment's laws as they are written. If justice is served in an American court it's a side benefit of protecting the legal system itself." That quote came directly from a federal judge I know well. If you believe otherwise you've fallen for a false narrative.

Christians are not saved by good works nor condemned by evil works all that matters is your faith in Jesus Christ.

Your gross misconception of that truth has been explained to you in so many ways and so many times by so many people that I no longer think you might actually be listening or thinking; what good would it do if we keep repeating to show you where you err?

You just don't grasp that Christians are "born again" "new creatures in Christ" with a changed heart that prevents us from doing all the mean things you think of and then expect that the Lord won't do a thing about it; that ain't true. But "sins" as you think of them don't keep anyone out of hell, only rejecting Jesus' salvation does that.

No one in this life ever will be perfect but no Christian will or can commit sin without at least pains of conscious. And, if known sins continue, the Lord will dump a load of "whoop ***" on us and I can prove it by the assortment of deep tank track scars all over my butt. That isn't "no punishment" my friend and it's worse and more painful than going to jail so your "get out of jail free" card isn't at all true.

Char-Gar

09-22-2019, 11:27 AM

And Can It Be - a favorite hymn for me and my late Dad. The truth of which it tells is both a comfort and a powerful witness.

It is far and away my favorite hymn.

dtknowles

09-22-2019, 07:24 PM

The implication of that statement is silly. Guilty go unpunished? Guilty of what gets unpunished where? If you think Christians absolve anyone for any earthly crime if he claims to "believe" you're on a different planet! "An eye for an eye", etc. means to make the punishment fit the crime, not there will be no punishment at all.

"The secular legal system has no goal other than to protect the establishment's laws as they are written. If justice is served in an American court it's a side benefit of protecting the legal system itself." That quote came directly from a federal judge I know well. If you believe otherwise you've fallen for a false narrative.

Your gross misconception of that truth has been explained to you in so many ways and so many times by so many people that I no longer think you might actually be listening or thinking; what good would it do if we keep repeating to show you where you err?

You just don't grasp that Christians are "born again" "new creatures in Christ" with a changed heart that prevents us from doing all the mean things you think of and then expect that the Lord won't do a thing about it; that ain't true. But "sins" as you think of them don't keep anyone out of hell, only rejecting Jesus' salvation does that.

No one in this life ever will be perfect but no Christian will or can commit sin without at least pains of conscious. And, if known sins continue, the Lord will dump a load of "whoop ***" on us and I can prove it by the assortment of deep tank track scars all over my butt. That isn't "no punishment" my friend and it's worse and more painful than going to jail so your "get out of jail free" card isn't at all true.

So you believe that God punishes your misdeeds during your earthly existence?

Tim

dtknowles

09-22-2019, 07:30 PM

Well close but no ceegar! These crimes against humanity, that you enumerate, are the product of sin. Sin is understood as rejection of God as the supreme moral authority. That sin dynamic can be reversed by faith in Jesus and we are declared without guilt (justified) and therefore do not come under judgment/punishment.

You don't include God's grace in your thinking. This grace is God's UNMERITED favor. It isn't about justice, it is about grace.

"And can it be, that I should gain an interest in the Savior blood? Died He for me, who bought him pain? For me to Him to death persued? Amazing love, how can it be that thou my God should die for me?" .....And Can It Be....hymn by Charles WEsley

"Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved wretch like me. I once was lost, but now am found, was blind and now I see"....Amazing Grace...hymn by John Newton

It is all about God's grace and not resistance, guilt, heart purity or any of that other stuff. It is all about grace...all about grace. I for one don't want God to give me what I deserve, I want grace not justice. I want what I do not deserve, but yet it has been given freely to me through my faith in Jesus.

Nobody in their right mind wants to be be given what they deserve based on their thoughts or actions.

I guess that I am not of "right mind" as all I want is what I deserve based on my thoughts and actions.

Tim

1hole

09-22-2019, 09:27 PM

So you believe that God punishes your misdeeds during your earthly existence? Tim

Huh? What part of what I wrote about that was unclear?

You are massively agonizing about how God chooses to punish man for his sins rather than about what Jesus did to save man from the just penalty for his sins; you need to get your priorities in order.

Char-Gar

09-22-2019, 10:51 PM

Huh? What part of what I wrote about that was unclear?

You are massively agonizing about how God chooses to punish man for his sins rather than about what Jesus did to save man from the just penalty for his sins; you need to get your priorities in order.

He is just playing with you, just playing with you. He is looking for something to twist to cast doubt on your belief.

1hole

09-23-2019, 03:02 PM

He is just playing with you, just playing with you. He is looking for something to twist to cast doubt on your belief.

Yeah. Or at least he's trying ... but two can play his kind of games and I'm having phun. He might do better if his reasoning was at least a little bit logical or even consistent. Actually, I know he's hopeless, I'm hoping my responses might benefit others who are following the discussion, such as it is.

Char-Gar

09-23-2019, 03:55 PM

An atheist was seated next to a dusty old cowboy on an airplane and he turned to him and said, “Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”

The old cowboy, who had just started to read his book, replied to the total stranger, “What would you want to talk about?”

“Oh, I don’t know,” said the atheist. “How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?” as he smiled smugly.

“Okay,” he said. “Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?”

The atheist, visibly surprised by the old cowboy's intelligence, thinks about it and says, “Hmmm, I have no idea.”

To which the cowboy replies, “Do you really feel qualified to discuss God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don’t know crap?”

1hole

09-23-2019, 08:07 PM

Rofl!

dtknowles

09-23-2019, 08:30 PM

Huh? What part of what I wrote about that was unclear?

You are massively agonizing about how God chooses to punish man for his sins rather than about what Jesus did to save man from the just penalty for his sins; you need to get your priorities in order.

"if known sins continue, the Lord will dump a load of "whoop ***" on us and I can prove it by the assortment of deep tank track scars all over my butt."

Your own words!

Tim

dtknowles

09-23-2019, 10:21 PM

He is just playing with you, just playing with you. He is looking for something to twist to cast doubt on your belief.

With his idea that he is being punished for his sins while still on Earth sounds more like a Old Testament Jew, don't you think? Or maybe it is the Prosperity Bible?

Tim

dtknowles

09-23-2019, 10:23 PM

Ickisrulz

09-24-2019, 07:41 AM

First, deer, horses and cows do not eat the same stuff. Second, cows chew their cud. This joke is nonsense.

Tim

Cows, horses and deer can all eat grass and process the nutrients just fine. How that effects their waste, I'll admit I don't know.

The joke is like the final act of the Book of Job. Man has lots of opinions on the workings of God without having all the facts or insight into God's mind and motivations. This is laughable since man cannot even solve seemingly simple earthly mysteries.

Char-Gar

09-24-2019, 12:27 PM

Cows, horses and deer can all eat grass and process the nutrients just fine. How that effects their waste, I'll admit I don't know.

The joke is like the final act of the Book of Job. Man has lots of opinions on the workings of God without having all the facts or insight into God's mind and motivations. This is laughable since man cannot even solve seemingly simple earthly mysteries.

You got the point, thanks for looking beyond the "fact deficiencies" of the parable. In Texas Whitetail deer eat forbes, but will eat grass if food conditions push them to it, but it is the food of last resort. Non-native species of deer do eat grass as their first choice.

1hole

09-24-2019, 06:45 PM

With his idea that he is being punished for his sins while still on Earth sounds more like a Old Testament Jew, don't you think?

Are you suggesting that God will not punish us here for sins committed here? The Old Testament is filled with many examples and none of it any connection with the O.T. Jewish Law of Moses.

The N.T. also has several examples of earthly punishments so, yes, as I clearly stated, it's in the Word and I believe the Word to be true. God "chaseneth whom he loves" (Heb 12:6-11) but that doesn't mean he'll send the spiritual children he loves to hell (or to a non-existent purgatory). And his punishments are simply to correct us, he won't stomp a mud hole in our butts trying to get even. WE are the ones who determine how much punishment it takes to straighten us out; being wrong and stubborn hurts!

Or maybe it is the Prosperity Bible?

Tim

I have no clue what a "Prosperity Bible" is. Do you mean those who believe in the "prosperity gospel"? If so, I'll state this as clearly and simply as I can; "There is no such gospel, the idea is a people controlling farce. I have no respect for those who teach it but I have great sympathy for those who believe it." I hope that won't also need to be repeated for you to understand it. ???

cainttype

09-27-2019, 12:22 PM

The way we view The Bible determines our views on everything “Christian”, and much the Jewish faith.
I expect people to have questions, or to disagree, on almost any subject if there are more than a few intelligent individuals in the group.

Questioning other’s views is not the same as questioning The Bible, although it may well be questioning how one interprets Biblical text.
I see a healthy discussion as a good thing. Others may see it differently.
If you are comfortable with your beliefs, or questions, you should be able to competently and politely discuss them with those who agree, disagree, or have no opinion at all.
Obviously, I’m curious about the views of others, whether I agree or not... Listening to people that agree with me never taught me much.
Your mileage may vary.

1hole

09-27-2019, 03:29 PM

Obviously, I’m curious about the views of others, whether I agree or not... Listening to people that agree with me never taught me much.
Your mileage may vary.

Ditto.

EDG

09-28-2019, 07:58 AM

Man has solved many mysteries, many more than there is room here to list but I will name a few.
The Salk and Sabin vaccines for polio, the eradication of small pox, development of electrical power, invention of powered flight, freezing and other means of long term food preservation, development of penicillin and other modern antibiotics, modern surgical techniques, etc. There is also the various imaging techniques such as X-ray, cat scans, MRIs etc.
I would bet that many or all of you and members of your families would be dead without some of the mysteries solved by man. I would not trade a single one of those for all the bibles on the planet. The bible has not provided a single answer to any of man's maladies. Man will cure more diseases and maladies in the future while improving his quality of life. Not only that but in the future the bible will not solve any mysteries while man goes on learning and solving mysteries. While man goes on improving his life though learning and change your bible cannot change. Your kind will still be preaching the same old party line years and decades in the future until your biblical tales are forgotten.
The bible eventually be forgotten simply because it can add nothing to man's life.

There are currently about 7.7 billion people on the planet making use of those mysteries solved by man. Most of the earth's population gets along fine without ever touching or reading a bible.

Cows, horses and deer can all eat grass and process the nutrients just fine. How that effects their waste, I'll admit I don't know.

The joke is like the final act of the Book of Job. Man has lots of opinions on the workings of God without having all the facts or insight into God's mind and motivations. This is laughable since man cannot even solve seemingly simple earthly mysteries.

cainttype

09-28-2019, 08:12 AM

I see Char-Gar has been banned...
I certainly hope this thread had nothing to do with that, and would NEVER have started it if I had any idea it might result in such actions.

Char-Gar is one of the GOOD GUYS... He’s been a very valuable member of this forum for a loooong time.
Many of “The Old Guard” have left for various reasons, including bans, but each and every one of them take a precious knowledge/experience base with them.... It’s a great loss to a forum like this.

I hope this ban is only temporary, and will be glad to see it ended.
This place will be less interesting, and less intelligent without Charles...

1hole

09-28-2019, 10:34 AM

Char-Gar is banned? He's a good man! Wonder what standard of measurement caused that?

dtknowles

09-28-2019, 11:45 AM

Char-Gar is banned? He's a good man! Wonder what standard of measurement caused that?

Hope it is temporary.

Tim

Surculus

09-29-2019, 10:25 PM

1st off, you have to remember that the Bible is one of the most heavily re-edited pieces of literature the world has ever known. King James was looking for a political screed to calm unruly subjects: you think the monks he hired to compile a new bible didn't know which side their bread was buttered on? The OT is pretty much all myth [those parts not devoted to record-keeping, like Deuteronomy's "begats"] to answer "where did we come from?" and provide cohesion to a semi-nomadic and frequently invaded culture. The New Testament is composed of individual gospels, and like any collection of eye-witness testimonies, most of one disagrees with another's. And let's not forget that a HUGE collection of gospels were knowingly excluded [look up the Council of Nicea somewhere in the 300s? iirc, & realize that anything that didn't support the official party line got written out of history in the interest of consolidating the nascent political hegemony of the Church...] And then of course, there's the little aspect that not *everyone* even agrees upon the divinity of the carpenter from Nazareth. So what *do* the major religions agree upon? Well, Jesus is a prophet nearly as important as their favorite misogynistic pederast to the Moslems, and when Zen Buddhists have been read the Christ's teachings they agree that he sounds like someone who has achieved satori [which is usually translated as "enlightenment."] I don't require divinity, nor do I have faith in pie in the sky in the sweet by & by: his teachings are a recipe for heaven on earth, not a ticket to some heaven we only get to see after our ticket gets punched. If more people who claim to believe in him actually lived the life he taught, there'd be a lot more people who'd listen to his message. Just sayin'.

1hole

09-30-2019, 03:21 PM

Interesting screed but you have so many factual errors it's hard to take you serious.

[quote]1st off, you have to remember that the Bible is one of the most heavily re-edited pieces of literature the world has ever known.

Bible "edited"? Do you mean it's so often been translated into other languages or changed to keep up with English word meaning changes over time? Like, I assume everyone knows the original word "gay" has no application to its meaning today. There are many other words and a LOT of English grammar, some of which mandated changes in the KJV-AV Bible just to keep up. But there is nothing nefarious about it, save the corrupted "New World Translation", and some few false books supposedly "correcting" the Bible by adding false supports for cult doctrines.

King James was looking for a political screed to calm unruly subjects: you think the monks he hired to compile a new bible didn't know which side their bread was buttered on?

Monks are low level Roman Catholic leaders. They don't translate or edit anything and there were NO monks in the KJV translation teams. Most of the KJV translators were Calvinists, hard opposed to many RC doctrines. And they didn't by any means "compile" a new Bible; they simply completed the works of previous translators into English from the latin Bibles then in use by the RCC.

The OT is pretty much all myth [those parts not devoted to record-keeping, like Deuteronomy's "begats"] to answer "where did we come from?" and provide cohesion to a semi-nomadic and frequently invaded culture.

Myth? I won't even ask for your justification of that one.

I will note that much of the Old Testament is a historical record of the whole Hebrew nation from Adam to about 400 years before the first coming of Jesus, as the son of man. Family lineage was/is important to Hebrews so, yes, the Bible does include important genealogies. But not in Deuteronomy. Maybe you meant in 1st Chronicles or N.T. Matthew? Anyway, this isn't a fuzzy math class, if you want to post facts then you need to know the facts.

The New Testament is composed of individual gospels,

The N.T has 27 books. Just as points of fact, only the first four are gospels. Two were written by the Lord's disciples (Matthew and John), the other two were not (Mark and Luke).

... and like any collection of eye-witness testimonies, most of one disagrees with another's.

Most eye-witness accounts differ because each one sees and hears some things but not everything. And some observers pay more attention to some facts than others. The differences don't mean the witnesses "disagree", it simply means we need to get all the views we can in order to get a better view of an event.

And let's not forget that a HUGE collection of gospels were knowingly excluded [look up the Council of Nicea somewhere in the 300s? iirc, & realize that anything that didn't support the official party line got written out of history in the interest of consolidating the nascent political hegemony of the Church...

A "huge" collection of "gospels" were "knowingly" discarded by the Nicean council? Those men knew what they were doing and, yes, they eliminated a number of redundant and clearly erroneous books.

Again, I won't ask for justification of you claiming a "huge" number of proposed books were blocked from inclusion in the canon of N.T. books but we have no valid reason to suggest those men were trying to distort anything. In fact, the Nicean record shows they were very careful about what they accepted as spiritual writings; I like that.

There was no "official party line" or "political hegemony of the Church" at that time, each congregation was independent and they mostly remained so for a few hundred years more.

And then of course, there's the little aspect that not *everyone* even agrees upon the divinity of the carpenter from Nazareth.

And Stalin is still dead.

Maybe you could name a single organization of any kind, anywhere in the world, that has no differences of opinion? And tell us what your obvious point tells anyone?

I don't require divinity, nor do I have faith in pie in the sky

Alright, so now we know you don't require divinity nor do you have pie on the sky faith. BUT ...... ??

If more people who claim to believe in him actually lived the life he taught, there'd be a lot more people who'd listen to his message. Just sayin'.

Just saying? Well, okay. But, I say if more people who claim to love the USA would respect our history and flag a lot more people would respect our history and flag. Seems not everyone can be trusted to live what they say, can they? But recognizing that truth doesn't mean everything they say is invalid does it? :)

cainttype

10-01-2019, 08:32 AM

This is not directed at any previous post, but should be mentioned for the sake of clarity when it is suggested that “editing” has had some detrimental effect on The Bible...

It is often said, erroneously, that the early Christian church (read Roman Catholic here) tried to “hide ‘The Word’” by using hand copied Bibles written in Latin...
First, the printing press made it’s arrival over a thousand years after monks were painstakingly making works of art with handmade bibles to preserve “The Word”.

Second... From before the time Jesus walked the Earth, and well past the time The Bible was being translated into English, Latin was THE universal language. Anybody, anywhere, that was “educated” could and did read Latin (Think Roman Empire, and it’s influence here).
Latin was at that time the BEST language to use if you wanted to SPREAD and SHARE the biblical texts.

Add the fact that Latin was, and is, very precise (why it is still used today in science, medicine, etc...) and the suggestion of any “attempt” to keep the biblical text hidden becomes totally ridiculous.

The use of Latin, it’s widespread influence and it’s accuracy, could very well be the ONLY reason we find early transcripts hidden away in ancient caves that confirm many of the texts we read today as being accurate translations.
“Just sayin’...”

1hole

10-01-2019, 11:00 AM

Schwartz, no offence was intended.

It is often said, erroneously, that the early Christian church (read Roman Catholic here) tried to “hide ‘The Word’” by using hand copied Bibles written in Latin...

First, the printing press made it’s arrival over a thousand years after monks were painstakingly making works of art with handmade bibles to preserve “The Word”. The use of Latin, it’s widespread influence and it’s accuracy, could very well be the ONLY reason we find early transcripts hidden away in ancient caves that confirm many of the texts we read today as being accurate translations.

Roger that.

I'm no fan of most Roman Catholic doctrines but I am a fan of truth. Truth is, a lot of incorrect things are said about the RCC.

First, there was NO governing church establishment from Rome or anywhere else for something like 2-3 hundred years after Jesus' death but the New Testament books were written in the first part of that early time period. ALL books were hand written copies then.

The various congregations would get a copy of Mark's gospel and make copies for its own use and for further distribution to other congregations. Thus, each church would eventually get other copies of the same book. This effectively insured that any spurious changes would be detected (and destroyed) fairly quickly. Thus, no sneaky (nonexistent at th time) RCC power structure could possibly have made any effective changes in those widely hand copied texts.

Next, for accuracy, we should also know that later RCC popes and councils DID slowly pick up a few of the books that had been kept out of the canon. The RCC called them the "lost books" of the Bible and used them to support their errors. (Those books weren't "lost", they were rejected by a very large council called to establish the proper canon.) And, of necessity, they had to suddenly establish many "church traditions" to support what isn't in their superflouis Bible additions. But none of that could have started until about 400 AD, long after any meaningful New Testament text changes could have been made.

Blackwater

10-01-2019, 03:52 PM

All this talk of God punishing us while we're still on earth troubles me. I don't think that's the proper and actual case, or the manner in which it should be seen and believed. Sure, we do indeed do things, even the best among us, that constitute sins or shortcomings. And yes, things do indeed happen that make us "pay the price" for our misdeeds. However, to see this as a simple cause-effect relationship, is, I believe, rather short-sighted and based on our own assumptions, without serious deliberation on the matter.

We are told that "God is Love," and indeed, this MUST be so, or He wouldn't keep putting up with such a recalcitrant bunch as us humans. A God of Love does not go around just looking for sins to punish. He IS, however, concerned with our growth and increasing our understanding and faith. Just reacting by punishing us does not edify or benefit us. It shames us, and diminishes us. God wants us to grow, so as I see it, He simply lets the natural and inevitable ends of our sins overtake us as they are naturally wont to do. He's not punishing us. He's just LETTING us LEARN! Now that's the kind of action that a true God of Love works upon!

We so often assume a cause-effect relationship when we see sin and "punishment" occur in sequence. But if we simply read more, explored deeper, and came to understand more of how God REALLY works, and why He does what He does, we discover that He's even more regal, more majestic, and more loving and in control than we'd ever suspected!

Yes, the "wages of sin is death." Of course it is. What else could it be? But God is always watching to find ways to edify us, and bring us closer to him, and increase our understanding of him, IF .... only we simply THINK about things, and don't just adopt knee-jerk reactions as the explanations to what God is doing. Far, far too easy to run ourselves astray when we do that. God wants us to think! Why else would He have given us a brain so capable of abstract thought and investigation???? Sometimes, I have to wonder how we got so averse to actual logical thinking and evaluation!

1hole

10-02-2019, 02:04 PM

We are told that "God is Love," and indeed, this MUST be so, or He wouldn't keep putting up with such a recalcitrant bunch as us humans. A God of Love does not go around just looking for sins to punish. He IS, however, concerned with our growth and increasing our understanding and faith. Just reacting by punishing us does not edify or benefit us. It shames us, and diminishes us. God wants us to grow, so as I see it, He simply lets the natural and inevitable ends of our sins overtake us as they are naturally want to do. He's not punishing us. He's just LETTING us LEARN! Now that's the kind of action that a true God of Love works upon!

You misunderstand the purpose of the Father's punishments of his children in this life. You're right that God, as a good father to his children, doesn't seek reasons to stomp mud holes in our butts. His punishment goal is to correct our actions, not to extract revenge for our past errors. He loves us so he only punishes us enough to get our attention and change our heart; if we recognise our errors and get things right without punishment then no temporal punishment is needed. Meaning WE determine if we get punished, and by how much; I don't think that's a bad system.

God wants us to think! Why else would He have given us a brain so capable of abstract thought and investigation???? Sometimes, I have to wonder how we got so averse to actual logical thinking and evaluation!

Okay, let's use our heads and think a bit. Can we actually believe the meanings of scripture? I think so.

First, in Prov 3:12, Acts 17:11 and Heb 12:6-10 we're plainly told that God WILL chastize his wayward children BECAUSE he loves us, he's not a tyrant venting rage. So, we are left ONLY with the questions of where, when and IF we misbehave without repentance but God doesn't chasize us then he doesn't love us as a father and the Bible has lied; neither of us believe that. And, we also know that in the after life, all temporal punishments are passed over as if our errors never happened, right?

So, as my head sees it, and by elimination of the other two possible options, God's promised correctional punishments to discipline each of his beloved children has to occur here, before mortal death. How can it be otherwise?

Now, please note that I haven't even suggested that we will be whipped down or humiliated by God everytime we stumble. Those who foolishly think every bad thing that happens to us is automatically a "punishment" from God for our occasional failures are very wrong and need to read (and try to understand) the book of Job.

Leftyfixit

10-02-2019, 02:05 PM

Each of us has to decide what we will do with Jesus. Our fate is in our own hand as far as believing the Bible and it's promises to us. We know technology can be lost as empires crumble the first things lost are education and morality. We the U S A are mystery Babylon and when you study the Bible the U S A fits into the roll of Mystery Babylon perfectly. That being said our fate as a nation is sealed to us. What can be changed is where we will spend eternity. If we trust and believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior nothing else really matters. If We don't know Jesus personally all of the promises of the Bible are equally true for the lost. Why would anyone of sound mind want to temp fate to send themselves to a place of torment forever? Each of us chooses our place for eternity. Choose wisely.

dtknowles

10-04-2019, 12:42 PM

cainttype

10-05-2019, 05:02 PM

I said “using hand copied Bibles written in Latin...”. That is accurate.
Actual texts that were translated were originally written in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic (which most scholars believe is the language used by Jesus), and an earlier Latin translation/version.
The Vulgate (Latin) was done in the 4th Century (late 300 AD time period), and was the language used by the RCC throughout it’s sphere of influence for over a thousand years before crude printing presses were developed.

The point was not where The Bible originated, or even in which languages, but rather how it was spread (and whether the claim that someone was trying to “hide” anything was valid...).
Nobody tried to hide anything... Simple truth.

dtknowles

10-06-2019, 12:37 PM

cainttype

10-06-2019, 12:55 PM

I agree, but my comments had absolutely nothing to do with the age, or authenticity, of any texts.

“Edits” were mentioned as possibly altering texts, and I simply attempted to make clear that much of what we view as Biblical text today is no different than the earliest texts we have access too... That, in itself, also destroys the myth that Latin was used as an attempt to “hide” any Biblical text from the masses by some conspiracy in the early Christian church.

Propaganda has always been an effective tool in sowing discord and mistrust, in both warfare and religion... Many old mistruths survive today because they’re never addressed properly, or considered critically on their merits.
I offered an opinion on one of those misconceptions.

dtknowles

10-06-2019, 09:25 PM

cainttype

10-07-2019, 09:00 AM

I’m almost curious what you mean by “misconception” here.
It is common knowledge that much of the New Testament was penned by unknowns, regardless of the name of the book in question. That would be widely known by anyone that even briefly studied the history of The Bible, instead of it’s contents.
Some books are credited to multiple writers, some books are credited to anonymous sources, some writers are credited with multiple books...
It’s irrelevant to a practicing Christian.

Christians accept that God is the author of the New Testament.
They also accept that men were inspired by God to put quill to parchment, preserving God’s word for mankind.

“Faith” that The Bible is the actual word of God separates Christians from other religions.
The idea that faith demands acceptance of certain ideas regarding God’s intent, his ‘plan”, or his overall characteristics is debatable, and can be discussed rationally... using those same “inspired” texts from both Old and New Testaments.

dtknowles

10-12-2019, 11:14 AM

cainttype

10-13-2019, 10:20 AM

Christians accept that God is the author of the New Testament.
They also accept that men were inspired by God to put quill to parchment, preserving God’s word for mankind.

“Faith” that The Bible is the actual word of God separates Christians from other religions.

I believe that knowledge of the authors of the New Testament is relevant to determining is veracity. Part of my point is that the New Testament is incorrect about who wrote some parts of it. The Bible is not infallible.

Tim

So if I wrote a book, titled it “Tim”, and you read it later thinking that Tim must have been the author... What difference would it make if the information was accurate?
The fact that these NT books were often handed down verbally for years before ever being written down could well be attributed to the fear of LIONS by the early Christians.
If “John”, for instance, is an accurate accounting of John’s teachings and recounts what he witnessed accurately, what difference does it make?... None.

I’d be a poor student of history if I could only accept that things were said, or done, when they were written by the guy that DID it.... Can you imagine how much history would be lost if the criteria you suggest was actually adopted and applied to the scholarly works we depend on today?
Thankfully, we don’t view historical documents with blinders on.