Why faith is so difficult....Cain murders Able

[dverna]

Cain's offering of the goods from his harvest were rejected by God. God had deemed Cain's offering unacceptable because Cain did not present his offering with a pure heart.

The angered Cain was warned by God, "if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."

God spoke directly to Cain and yet Cain did not have faith. How many of us would ignore God if He were to speak to us directly? Would we not obey and wouldn't any doubt about God be completely eliminated?

At this point in time, there are likely less than 100 people on earth and yet Cain proceeds to murder his brother. Did Cain not believe that God was omnipresent and did Cain believe that God would be deceived? And yet Cain tried to do just that.

So here is a man who has spoken with God and still does not have faith in God, or His power.

God has not spoken to man for centuries. We have His word in the Bible, but He has not shown himself to us physically or conversed with us directly. Our belief is based solely on faith.

I wonder just how arrogant Cain must have been. Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today. He saw and spoke to God and rejected God's way.

[Rizzo]

Similarly, when Jesus was baptized by John the baptist, to paraphrase the passage, the clouds parted and God spoke saying this is my son whom I am well pleased.
Yet, Jesus was arrested and crucified despite that "proof" that he was the son of God.
It's hard to understand their thinking, including the Cain story.
Also, Saul (Paul) changed his beliefs after seeing Jesus on the way to Damascus.

I sometimes wonder if God sent "someone" (Jesus, Moses, Mohammed,....) and gave us all a message how screwed up we have become with all of our different religious beliefs, would things change?
Would the Muslims stop their hostilities against anyone who doesn't believe what they do?
Would the Christians stop insisting that their way is the only way to God and everyone else is wrong?
Things like that.

What a wonderful world this would be if we were all on the same page...religiously.
So, until that time, we still have our different "Books" that are supposed to be our Owner's Manual of sorts on how to live.

[Traffer]

I think the example of Cain's mother is even more revealing. How long did it take for Satan to get her to betray God? 2 minutes? The bottom line for me is that the dark spiritual influences upon humans are far more powerful than we are. Our only hope is to recognize this and actually "take refuge" in God. Able did that and that is why his offerings were accepted. David did that and that is why God was with him to defeat great enemies.
But the average person does not run to take refuge in God when evil comes and is quickly deceived by it. Causing a spiritual disaster.

[wv109323]

The scribes and Pharisees had direct contact and spoke with Jesus. They saw numerous undisptable miracles and still did not have faith in Jesus,the Son of God. They did not dispute the miracles, but said he did the miracles by the power of Beelzebub and not God.
There are several people in the Bible who had contact with God and refused to believe.
Until the devil is condemed to hell there will be unbelievers.

[Arkansas Paul]

I wonder just how arrogant Cain must have been. Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today.

I know this isn't your point, but I don't think most atheists are arrogant.
You hear the loud mouthed ones on the internet and tv, but I don't think that's the majority.
Christians have loudmouthed idiots too. I don't judge all Christians by how Pat Robertson and the Westboro Baptist Church conduct themselves. I know that most Christians are great people who really care about others. I was raised going to church every time the doors were open and I know the people I grew up with were wonderful people.

[Traffer]

I know this isn't your point, but I don't think most atheists are arrogant.
You hear the loud mouthed ones on the internet and tv, but I don't think that's the majority.
Christians have loudmouthed idiots too. I don't judge all Christians by how Pat Robertson and the Westboro Baptist Church conduct themselves. I know that most Christians are great people who really care about others. I was raised going to church every time the doors were open and I know the people I grew up with were wonderful people.

Most atheists are Godless. What does the Bible say about godlessness?

[Dieselhorses]

Christians, Muslims, Hindu (name any denomination/religion) can be so close to God, or the god they believe in, but then inherently distance themselves from that god thus believing "they" govern life, series of events, everyday routine. In essence they become "lukewarm" in their beliefs and take the reigns to control their destiny. Similarly did Adam and Eve try to run and hide from God in the garden of Eden because once they agreed to follow God's simple instruction but then failed Him. I guess my point is, is that in our prayers, our offerings or anything else we do for God, we have to do it with a clean slate (ask for forgiveness of shortcomings etc.). Can't have a beef with anyone, can't hold grudges etc.. God rejected Cain's offering simply because he didn't have a pure heart and that could be many reasons. All Cain really had to do was pray earnestly and seek out God's reasoning behind it and fix the problem. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[pmer]

Cain's problem with God went beyond faith. He knew first hand that God is God yet he ultimately used Able to hurt God.
With Cain and Adam & Eve there are two perspectives of evil. Adam & Eve affords a more personnel view of a wrong while Cain gives more of a bird's eye view of evil actions. Maybe even a glimpse of what God is up agaisnt with His adversary.

Cain did a series of evil actions that lead to separation while Adam and Eve ultimately repented.

[dverna]

The scribes and Pharisees had direct contact and spoke with Jesus. They saw numerous undisptable miracles and still did not have faith in Jesus,the Son of God. They did not dispute the miracles, but said he did the miracles by the power of Beelzebub and not God.
There are several people in the Bible who had contact with God and refused to believe.
Until the devil is condemed to hell there will be unbelievers.

Exactly. I can understand people of today, who have no recent "evidence" of God, not believing in Him. But how can anyone who has had contact with God still be an unbeliever? It makes no sense to me.

God proved Himself to the ancients more than once. And yet not everyone believed. Even the miracles that occur today are pooh-poohed as "luck" or due to advances in medicine. We have not experienced miracles like the parting of the Red Sea, baptism of Christ, or His resurrection that are undisputable acts of God. We are dependent on the Word to feed our faith.

Man was created predisposed to search for knowledge and wants to understand, but we cannot understand God completely. God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden knowing that Adam and Eve would commit the first sin. He knew man wanted knowledge. He made us that way.

Our inability to understand God is why faith is so difficult and why atheism has grown.

Many churches do not help in strengthening our faith in God. Too many ridicule science or see it as "the enemy" of faith. Especially those churches that cling to the new earth view. (Earth is 6-10k years old) It is impossible for an intelligent person to accept such a doctrine and trust he will hear the truth from that church. There is too much evidence against the new earth belief. And it is easy to dismiss it all if one must accept the "core beliefs" of some churches. So, sadly, the more intelligent and educated members of modern society are driven away.

I have learned to ignore the interpretations and preaching of some pastors. They are not bad people, or stupid, or lying...they are just wrong on some things. Yet they can deliver powerful messages that make me think and help me grow my faith.

It is possible to have faith in God without having to accept every doctrine of the church. My current church believes in the inerrancy of the Bible...I do not. It can be argued that faith is even stronger if we are not required to be "brain washed" and instead question...yet still believe.

Faith is difficult but necessary. But good things are normally not easily acquired.

[Bigslug]

Exactly. I can understand people of today, who have no recent "evidence" of God, not believing in Him. But how can anyone who has had contact with God still be an unbeliever? It makes no sense to me.


I think you might be using the term "unbeliever" in place of "rejector", and I don't think arrogance plays into it at all.

Ponder great big chunks of human history: Your firstborn son died of typhus; your third was stillborn and your wife died with it; your crops were devoured by locusts; the barbarian horde appeared on the horizon, and, not finding any grain to pillage, made off with your only remaining teenage daughter after beating you senseless and allowing the funnier ones among them to sodomize you by the warm firelight of your burning house for a couple hours.

So let's say God DOES show up in a blaze of radiant splendor - you don't deny his existence, but you call B.S. on his job as a boss, since it seems that "faith and adherence to The Plan" requires you to receive an endless series of kicks to the balls and be happy about it. "Sorry bro - if you really were all that and a bag of chips, I'd still have all that and wouldn't be starving 'cuz I'd have a bag of chips to eat."

If our problem is an inability to understand God - well, it has been said that a failing of the student to comprehend is a failure of the teacher to transmit the information. God's either a bad teacher, or he made the mistake of creating sentient beings that don't want to be pawns when what he really wants is worker ants - either way, lots of room for a vote of "no confidence" in the Perfect Being theory.

A certain amount of atheism must stem from looking at the choices as (a.) there is a guy at the wheel, but he's drunk out of his mind AND texting, or (b.) there is nobody at the wheel.

[EDG]

Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today.

I would contend that someone who claims to know more than all others is really the arrogant one.

You do realize there is no real physical basis for Christianity. Just destroy all Bibles and give it a few hundred years and all will just fade away and be forgotten. If that is not enough then say in another 4000 years the return of the savior will be discredited by time and the Christian faith will have mostly been forgotten Bible and all. Time is not on your side.

[dtknowles]

I think the literal interpretation of those sections of the old testament is leading you astray. They are parables. They are not historical events. Look for the lesson don't treat them like they were real people.

Tim

[GhostHawk]

I can't prove that "God" still speaks to men.

Something is speaking to me regularly. And to my wife now and then.

I would not say it is like hearing my neighbor saying good morning.

More like a still small voice inside my head that could perhaps be hard to discern from a thought of my own.
Except it is not my "voice" and I seldom think of myself as "William Thomas".

I have been watching those interactions with that voice. Not once has it encouraged me to do something I would consider wrong.
Always it is encouraging to give, to help, to guide, to lift those in need.
I don't believe that is the devil.

Sometimes it has been known (Holy Spirit?) to "use" my fingers to say things better than I could say them.
Sometimes I get information (Knowing) that it would not be possible for me to know.

At times I can use that information to help family members who have just lost a loved one.
Tricky stuff though, easy to get burned. So I do tend to do so reluctantly.

But it is my experience that if you are wrapped up in this worlds troubles and concerns.
Have the TV on blaring noise into your ear. It is hard to get yourself into that still quiet listening phase where you can hear.

I am going to go WAY out on a limb here. I lost both my parents, dad in oct of 17, mom in Jan of 18.
It was december, I was at home, watching a tv show. Something about it reminded me of mom and dad. Especially mom.

I swear to you I felt her hand touch my left shoulder. And she whispered to me in that still small voice.

"Bill, your doing just fine, your father and I are together with the Lord, all is well. Bill just keep on as you have been and all will be well."

Then I felt dad's heavier hand hit my right shoulder and heard a very faint "love you son".

Then the weirdest thing of all happened.

I could see mom and dad standing behind me with their hands on me, and I could see the Lord with his hands on their shoulders.
And he is smiling, giving encouragement to the three of us.

Like a triple blessing.

I am not ashamed to admit I cried hard for 5 minutes. Freaked my poor wife out.

Are you ok? I'm ok. Are you ok? I'm ok. Are you ok? I'm ok. Bill why are you crying. I'll tell you, patience.

It is my opinion that he speaks to many of us, but we are not listening for him.
Maybe we have not learned how to listen to our hearts.

Maybe we are not keeping our hearts pure and clean, a fit temple for the Holy Spirit to dwell in.

I know I went through 3 days of real pain cleaning mine out.

I am willing to help anyone who is committed to accomplishing this. But you have to WANT to.
And you have to be ready to see things as Jesus saw them, forgive as he forgave.

I don't believe I am crazy. Weird perhaps.

Thank you if you made it this far. It is good to share, both joy and pain. Love you brothers.

[jmort]

God still speaks to the Saints
If you believe the Bible
God sent the Holy Ghost to comfort and guide us and teach us
If you are not in touch with the Holy Ghost you are missing out
If you do not believe The Word, then how can you have any Faith?????
You put your Faith under a rock
You believe the Word is just a work of fiction so there is zero chance to have Faith in something you do not be to be inherent Word of God.
Most unfortunate, considering all that was sacrificed and provided for you.

[Blackwater]

Sometimes, Don, I think more of us than we'd like to think would do what we want, and (these days) explain our conversation with God as "bad eats," and go ahead and do what we WANT instead of what we've clearly been advised and admonished to do. When God gave mankind a free will, he gave us the makings of our own undoing, if that's what we choose. I think it's really just that simple. God doesn't sit up in Heaven and move us around like chess pieces. He turned us loose, on our own, to decide our own fate. And Satan's many, many temptations are seductive lures to take us away from our Maker and our Salvation. And today, not many are even looking for salvation, or for answers to the timeless mysteries that have always intrigued us, and made us wonder, and filled us with awe and trepidation. The "new breed" in the streets today seems to be averse to hearing ANYTHING about the Lord, and some wouldn't accept it if we poured it into their heads. They'd just shake it off, and go on thinking they are their own "universe" and that it'll never end. I don't know of any way to save a person like that, and I can't help but wonder what our future will be like when these types get significant control of our gov't and its offices. My only solace is knowing it's all in God's hands, and not ours nor theirs. I find that a wondrous cure for being depressed about the way of politics today.

[Hickory]

I think you might be using the term "unbeliever" in place of "rejector", and I don't think arrogance plays into it at all.

Ponder great big chunks of human history: Your firstborn son died of typhus; your third was stillborn and your wife died with it; your crops were devoured by locusts; the barbarian horde appeared on the horizon, and, not finding any grain to pillage, made off with your only remaining teenage daughter after beating you senseless and allowing the funnier ones among them to sodomize you by the warm firelight of your burning house for a couple hours.

And during all of this, where was the heart of this man? Was it with God or on his bad situation?
Now, consider Job. Where was his heart during the lose of his family and all that he owned did he curse God and blame others while he suffered with sores?
God sometimes will test a person to find out where his heart is and see what sort of person he really is inside and out.

I have seen many say one thing and in the moment of truth do the opposite.

[dtknowles]

Christians, Muslims, Hindu (name any denomination/religion) can be so close to God, or the god they believe in, but then inherently distance themselves from that god thus believing "they" govern life, series of events, everyday routine. In essence they become "lukewarm" in their beliefs and take the reigns to control their destiny. Similarly did Adam and Eve try to run and hide from God in the garden of Eden because once they agreed to follow God's simple instruction but then failed Him. I guess my point is, is that in our prayers, our offerings or anything else we do for God, we have to do it with a clean slate (ask for forgiveness of shortcomings etc.). Can't have a beef with anyone, can't hold grudges etc.. God rejected Cain's offering simply because he didn't have a pure heart and that could be many reasons. All Cain really had to do was pray earnestly and seek out God's reasoning behind it and fix the problem. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

"Christians, Muslims, Hindu (name any denomination/religion) can be so close to God, or the god they believe in, but then inherently distance themselves from that god thus believing"

There is but one God, the creator of the Universe. No matter what religion or belief they are worshiping the same God only in different ways. If you do not worship God but some demon or physical thing all that means is that you are either siding with evil against God or are a hedonist.

Tim

[EDG]

I'll fly a starship
Across the Universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain
And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again.

[Thundarstick]

I'll fly a starship
Across the Universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain
And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again.

I wouldn't bet on it, but whatever turns your crank. I'm betting on one and done!

[EDG]

You must not recognize those words.
Obviously you take the written word in literature far too literally.
You are betting on nothing but goat herders yarns.
In the mean time the universe is around 3 billion years old.
I am betting the universe has a lot more to it than you and your goat herding buddies can ever hope comprehend. Three billion years is a time span your imagination cannot grasp since you have convinced yourself you already have all the answers.
The keys to the universe do not exist in the Bible - which is just a piece of literature. It is not comparable to a physics book. If the Bible is the only book you rely on you have little chance of knowing what is real.


I wouldn't bet on it, but whatever turns your crank. I'm betting on one and done!

[1hole]

EDG, the question before us is not what innerlecshul lock-step scientists say, we all know most of that.

BUT, fact is, neither you nor your trusty scientists know anything meaningful about the Bible and nothing at all about anything spiritual. It's difficult - impossible - for us who do know to take people who are totally ignorant of the subject serious. :)

[EDG]

Take it from people who know as in you? jajajajajaja -
It is very apparent that you know very little of science other than a internet article now and then. Why don't you undertake a serious pursuit of science? You would find out it is real whether you believe it or not.
Science is the same from one end of the universe to the other and it is the same for all men everywhere. The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. The laws of physics apply to you and will ALWAYS apply to you and all your Bible beating cohorts whether you like it or not.
Your Bible is nothing more than a collection of oral tales handed down through the ages.
Should all your Bibles be destroyed the entire basis of your faith would vanish. There is no other physical basis for your faith. In contrast the laws of physics are part of the universe and are easily verified. You can destroy the human race yet the physical relationships between mass, energy, temperature, velocity and distance will never change. You can claim that there is some mysterious spiritual existence but about all you will get from that claim in most cases is a snicker.

The real basis for your faith is the inner despair that exists because you cannot deal with the inevitability of death. Your faith in many ways is nothing but a coping mechanism that gives you a the promise of eternal life in exchange for compliance with a specified form of behavior. So while you are only concerned with your own selfish goal of eternal life the members of your faith contribute little to the advancement of life in the here and now. In great contrast, scientists and practitioners of applied science have provided most of the inventions, new materials and processes that make up the modern world.
We all know that MRI, cat scans, X rays did not originate in your Bible. Small pox and polio were not eliminated by your faith. The computer you are using to argue your point was the product of thousands of scientists and engineers. I have worked in that industry for many years. None of it is attributable to your god. In fact many of the engineers and scientists come from other regions of the planet that have no faith or their religion has no connection to the Abrahamic religions. Yet these godless scientists and engineers take advantage of science and the laws of physics to advance mankind on a daily basis. Your faith contributes nothing similar, it never has and it never will. All you faith stricken people can do is worry about dying.




EDG, the question before us is not what innerlecshul lock-step scientists say, we all know most of that.

BUT, fact is, neither you nor your trusty scientists know anything meaningful about the Bible and nothing at all about anything spiritual. It's difficult - impossible - for us who do know to take people who are totally ignorant of the subject serious. :)

[Thundarstick]

Of course I know "Highwaymen", and Cloud Atlas is a neat bit of fiction. You may want to check into your statement that "The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. " current research shows this is likely not the case. How about parallel universes, string theory, and bubble theory? Where does physics stop and metaphysics begin for you?
As far as living/dying, all who live will face a physical death we all accept this, but do you fear death?
I digress, this discussion is about faith, or lack there of. Here it is, take it, leave it, or scoff at it.

1Co 2:12-16

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

A mind set on worldly things can only comprehend things of this world, a worldly mind can not comprehend spiritual things. Therefore all you can do is ridicule, and scoff what you can't understand, while belittling and berating those who do understand spiritual matters.

[EDG]

Oh yes how about all those other element of physics - do they not exist in your current universe?
They exist in everyone else's - both near and far. A parallel universe? Is it really parallel or is your universe the parallel universe?
You cannot get around to addressing the purpose of your faith can you? It merely exists as a path to everlasting life and the avoidance of death. As such it is only a coping mechanism for the frightened men whose fears do not permit them to understand much of anything outside the bible. Clearly if you had been born in Saudi Arabia you would be nothing more than another muslim. This fact shows how superficial any faith can be since you practice a particular faith only by accident of birth. Is that not a true statement? While you can be born into hundreds of faiths around the globe there is only one body of physical science and the laws of physics are are the same for everyone regardless of faith. No matter how superior you think your spirituality is, it is not universal. But science is universal whether you are Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or a non believer. To really know and understand the universe it takes knowing much more than the Bible. Relying on 2000 year old goat herders oral tales is not much of an education for today's world.

Since you want to quote something old and irrelevant I will quote some logic that even older and yet always relevant - especially the last line.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing

Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing

Then whence cometh evil.

If He is neither able nor willing

Then why call Him God?





Of course I know "Highwaymen", and Cloud Atlas is a neat bit of fiction. You may want to check into your statement that "The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. " current research shows this is likely not the case. How about parallel universes, string theory, and bubble theory? Where does physics stop and metaphysics begin for you?
As far as living/dying, all who live will face a physical death we all accept this, but do you fear death?
I digress, this discussion is about faith, or lack there of. Here it is, take it, leave it, or scoff at it.

1Co 2:12-16

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

A mind set on worldly things can only comprehend things of this world, a worldly mind can not comprehend spiritual things. Therefore all you can do is ridicule, and scoff what you can't understand, while belittling and berating those who do understand spiritual matters.

[Thundarstick]

It's already evident what side of the question you fall on EDG. Find peace and be blessed.

[UKShootist]

An interesting thread for me as an agnostic atheist part time Buddhist and and occasional follower of science. As I read the OP which treats the story of Cain and Abel as an absolute historical fact my certainty is that the story of Cain and Abel is just that, a story. It didn't happen. Neither was the world flooded nor Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt, the Red Sea was not parted, just to name a few. They are all wonderful tales to inspire people to believe in a God that is alleged to be eternally unchanging and yet who, if the Bible is to be believed, changes significantly. A bit like the conundrum "Can God make a weight so heavy he cannot lift it?"

People, believers, often speak of proof in the Bible. There is, I understand, proof of a person called Jesus existing at the time supposed. There is proof that people spoke of miracles and sermons. There can be no proof whatsoever of most of the Old Testament any more than Greek Mythology can be proved by the fact that there does exist a Mount Olympus.

[UKShootist]

Since you want to quote something old and irrelevant I will quote some logic that even older and yet always relevant - especially the last line.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil.
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

In the interests of impartiality I think I can put a hole in that one seeing as it's out of the bag of 'ifs'. For a God to be omnipotent has has to be everywhere and know everything that has happened, is happening and will happen. I could suggest that there is only one way He could do that which is to BE everyone and everything. How can He know evil without being evil and receiving evil? A worthy believe might be that God has split himself into myriad parts in order to be omnipotent and that evil done is God doing it to himself that he might then also know goodness. How might God know of every sparrow that falls without he IS every sparrow? How can he truly know of the child abuse unless He is both the abused and the abuser? A deeper conversation might be how can anyone be 'good' if there is no 'evil'? Perhaps I'll leave the one for another time.

[EDG]

Usually the believers try to bail themselves out of the Epicurean Paradox by claiming that god gave man free will and from that free will man is a source of evil.
I disagree since everyone of all faiths plus the non-believers have free will. Even cats and dogs have free will - it is nothing special from god.
As far as every sparrow goes, it is apparent that many believers also attribute poor time management skills to god if he bothers to monitor the activities of every little animal, insect and bacteria. Does he also know what happens to every living thing plants, seeds and spores? Even viruses? Every little fish and plankton in the whole wide ocean? If he does not monitor the existence of everything where is the cut off. Where does god draw the line for those that are monitored and those that are ignored?
It seems that omnipotence would get old and petty in a hurry.
While my argument is deliberately ridiculous the assertions of the believers are even more ridiculous since they seriously want you to believe them in spite of the goofy logic.


In the interests of impartiality I think I can put a hole in that one seeing as it's out of the bag of 'ifs'. For a God to be omnipotent has has to be everywhere and know everything that has happened, is happening and will happen. I could suggest that there is only one way He could do that which is to BE everyone and everything. How can He know evil without being evil and receiving evil? A worthy believe might be that God has split himself into myriad parts in order to be omnipotent and that evil done is God doing it to himself that he might then also know goodness. How might God know of every sparrow that falls without he IS every sparrow? How can he truly know of the child abuse unless He is both the abused and the abuser? A deeper conversation might be how can anyone be 'good' if there is no 'evil'? Perhaps I'll leave the one for another time.

[EDG]

I am surprised you bailed out after the Epicurean Paradox.


It's already evident what side of the question you fall on EDG. Find peace and be blessed.

[dverna]

EDG,

I believe there is a God, the Creator, but not the "whole ball of wax" that most believers attest to.

I believe He is not perfect...and by that I mean He does not make perfect decisions or creations every time. I believe He tires His best and some things work out better than others.

I believe He is powerful but do not believe He is all powerful.

I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible but still find it a useful book in most cases.

I believe in the story of Jesus as there it too much evidence that He existed and Jesus is even recognized by the Muslim religions. I believed Jesus performed miracles because he needed to prove He was the Son of God. Otherwise, He would have been another crack pot and could not have amassed the following He did in a short time. So, in my mind, Jesus was and is. It was dealing with the truth of Jesus that brought me to accept God after being an atheist for over five decades.

Most believers need to buy into the "whole ball of wax". It is how they were raised. For many, it is the easy way...no critical thinking required. It helps strengthen their faith. Nothing really "wrong" if it works for them, but for me it does not work...too many unanswered questions and inconsistencies.

I accept that man may not understand how God works but I do not accept that as a rationale to justify every unanswered question there is about God and how things happen or do not happen.

An atheist that uses extremes to rationalize there is no God is just as narrow minded as a believer who is unable or unwilling to question.

In my case, my "comfort zone" is at neither extreme, but leaning very heavily on the side of God.

I am a engineer and consider myself rooted in science, logic and reality...and I believe in God. I find it appalling that so many believers cling to the 6-24 days of Creation...or some of the other "facts" in the Bible that are not facts. But it is not necessary to believe what others believe to believe in God.

If by chance I am wrong, and the extreme conservative beliefs that are preached are proven correct, it will have no bearing in the end. He will understand my "arrogance" was based on what I thought was true. I have accepted Jesus and He will forgive me.

[UKShootist]

EDG,

I believe there is a God, the Creator, but not the "whole ball of wax" that most believers attest to.

I believe He is not perfect...and by that I mean He does not make perfect decisions or creations every time. I believe He tires His best and some things work out better than others.

I believe He is powerful but do not believe He is all powerful.

I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible but still find it a useful book in most cases.

I believe in the story of Jesus as there it too much evidence that He existed and Jesus is even recognized by the Muslim religions. I believed Jesus performed miracles because he needed to prove He was the Son of God. Otherwise, He would have been another crack pot and could not have amassed the following He did in a short time. So, in my mind, Jesus was and is. It was dealing with the truth of Jesus that brought meto accept God after being an atheist for over five decades.

Most believers need to buy into the "whole ball of wax". It is how they were raised. For many, it is the easy way...no critical thinking required. It helps strengthen their faith. Nothing really "wrong" if it works for them, but for me it does not work...to many unanswered questions and inconsistencies.

I accept that man may not understand how God works but I do not accept that as a rationale to justify every unanswered question there is about God and how things happen or do not happen.

An atheist that uses extremes to rationalize there is no God is just as narrow minded as a believer who is unable or unwilling to question.

In my case, my "comfort zone" is at neither extreme, but leaning very heavily on the side of God.

I am a engineer and consider myself rooted in science, logic and reality...and I believe in God. I find it appalling that so many believers cling to the 6-24 days of Creation...or some of the other "facts" in the Bible that are not facts. But it is not necessary to believe what others believe to believe in God.

If by chance I am wrong, and the extreme conservative beliefs that are preached are proven correct, it will have no bearing in the end. He will understand my "arrogance" was based on what I thought was true. I have accepted Jesus and He will forgive me.

It's a shame that there is no facility to set up a vote to see how many Christians here believe you are doomed to eternal hell for your beliefs. They sound pretty fair to me though (your beliefs that is).

[Thundarstick]

Fortunately, Christians will not be doing the judging.

[UKShootist]

Fortunately, Christians will not be doing the judging.

Deep. Very deep.

[1hole]

ED, your calm and well reasoned arguments are secured in your ego and total confidence that no one can know about anything, especially including spiritual things, than you. That's some heavy-duty conceit!

Your confidence in appraising the lack of education in science of people you don't know is astonishing.

Your confident guesses that what drives Christians is a fear of death is not only wrong but not even in the broad realm of truth; we fear physical death - and spiritual hell - less than anyone!

You making a string of confident strawman statements of the motives and mind sets of Christians you've never met, never mind known, displays a personal arrogance beyond my comprehension.

If you really believe humanity's long advance has been driven by atheists you are not only ignorant of spiritual things but history as well.

If you think followers of God are behind the evils of history you must not know anything at all about Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mau, Pol Pot, Tojo, Hussain, et al. Historical fact is, the most bloodthirsty tyrants of history have always been, in concept, humanists who rejected any thoughts of God because they were sure that might is more important than right.

You prove "There is no one as blind as he who will not see."

[EDG]

Niot really. Rather it appears that you hold that opinion of yourself whereas by simple logic I simply contend that you feel that way due to the inheritance of your parents faith and that such a spirituality does not really exist.
Those that lack a science education are readily apparent here from many of the hill billy arguments offered by the believers. If you argue "just cause it says so in the Bible" without any common sense support logic you have immediately lost any standing as far as having the slightest bit of scientific knowledge.
Sure you fear physical death and you fear it more than anyone. The fear of death is the only reason that you pay any attention to your god. You want to make a deal for a long comfortable eternity. Without that pay off you would not bother. Go sit with a terminally ill Christian and you will find the angriest and most fearful of people.
I think many of the most tyrannical and murderous were also purveyors of some god. The Catholic Church by transmission of disease and by participation in conquest managed to kill a majority of native peoples in the Americas. Even so since you do not believe in all gods you are also an atheist to all religions except your own. That puts you and your religious leaders in the same boat with the Hitler's, Stalins and Maos.


ED, your calm and well reasoned arguments are secured in your ego and total confidence that no one can know about anything, especially including spiritual things, than you. That's some heavy-duty conciete!

Your confidence in appraising the lack of education in science of people you don't know is astonishing.

Your confident guesses that what drives Christians is a fear of death is not only wrong but not even in the broad realm of truth; we fear physical death - and spiritual hell - less than anyone!

If you really believe humanity's long advance has been driven by atheists you are not only ignorant of spiritual things but history also.

If you think followers of God are behind the evils of history you must not know anything about Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mau, Pol Pot, Tojo, Hussain, et al. Fact is, the most bloodthirsty tyrants of history have always been, in concept, humanists who rejected any thoughts of God because they were sure that might is more important than right.

"There is no one as blind as he who will not see."

[1hole]

Fortunately, Christians will not be doing the judging.

Correct. The 'judgement" is quite simple, in fact there is only ONE sin (rejection of Jesus as savior) that sends anyone to hell and each of us make that decision for ourselves, not God - see John 3:18. Not many Christians grasp that fact and no heathens at all.

We earn rewards or degrees of eternal punishment and judged for what we do in this life but no human earns any part of his way into heaven.

[dverna]

It's a shame that there is no facility to set up a vote to see how many Christians here believe you are doomed to eternal hell for your beliefs. They sound pretty fair to me though (your beliefs that is).

I do not fear Christians or their judgment of my beliefs. I am much closer to them than an atheist or agnostic. I am blessed to have friends that hold a wide spectrum of views (atheists to Evangelicals) and are able to discuss these issues. If God is the deity I believe He is, He will judge me knowing what is in my mind and my heart. He does not expect perfection from us but He expects that we believe in Him and that Jesus is the way to salvation. There is a tendency to make it more complex than it really is.

I cannot prove either side of the argument and after much reading do not believe anyone can. Faith, in various degrees, is necessary to accept God. The more "perfect", infallible, omnipresent, all powerful someone wants to believe God is, the more faith required. My faith may be viewed inadequate by most Christians but it is there and the only opinions that matter are mine and God's.

I offer my views in the hopes that non-believers searching for answers are not driven away by Christians who think their way is the only way to God. Christians have split into so many sects to justify that their way is the right way...it is ludicrous. They cannot interpret the Bible consistently. But all Christians agree that accepting Jesus is necessary for eternal life. And accepting Jesus does not require a huge leap of faith. It is the logical starting point for a non-believer IMHO. At least is was for me.

[Thundarstick]

I cannot prove either side of the argument and after much reading do not believe anyone can. Faith, in various degrees, is necessary to accept God. The more "perfect", infallible, omnipresent, all powerful someone wants to believe God is, the more faith required. My faith may be viewed inadequate by most Christians but it is there and the only opinions that matter are mine and God's.

I offer my views in the hopes that non-believers searching for answers are not driven away by Christians who think their way is the only way to God. Christians have split into so many sects to justify that their way is the right way...it is ludicrous. They cannot interpret the Bible consistently. But all Christians agree that accepting Jesus is necessary for eternal life. And accepting Jesus does not require a huge leap of faith. It is the logical starting point for a non-believer IMHO. At least is was for me.

I don't understand why it's so difficult for many Christians to allow another's faith to grow in their own time, and to what extent it will. We are not all in the same time and place in our faith (spiritual life) at the same time. We are however, joined in our faith in Christ. Thank you for letting others know that I, or you, don't have to know the full mysteries of the scriptures, and that we aren't granted the right to judge or brothers and sisters! I was once a condemning Christian myself and try and avoid my past mistakes now days. Just as a plant needs room to grow, believers need room to grow!

[1hole]

... (Bible) is not comparable to a physics book. If the Bible is the only book you rely on you have little chance of knowing what is real.

Those who reject the Bible while clinging tightly to a physics book are leaning on a weak reed.

[EDG]

No not at all. You are the typical judgmental Christian leaning on goat herders tale that only go back a few thousand years. In the mean time it appears you have never studied physics or much of anything else that require logic and critical thinking. You are like the other run of the mill believers. You believe the same things that you learned from your parents. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia would be just another fundie muslim.
Like I have said before destroy all the Bibles and your faith would vanish. Your faith has no basis outside of that old book.
In contrast the laws of physics exist and can be proved whether there is a human race or not.


Those who reject the Bible while clinging tightly to a physics book are leaning on a weak reed.

[1hole]

Niot really. Rather it appears that you hold that opinion of yourself whereas by simple logic I simply contend that you feel that way due to the inheritance of your parents faith and that such a spirituality does not really exist.

Ah, 'it appears'? Another fractured collection of your "simple logic" deductions and again you're laffably wrong. My long dead parents weren't religious, I never saw either of them even open a Bible, they "went to church" for occasional weddings and funerals. So ... your simple minded logic missed again! :)


Those that lack a science education are readily apparent here from many of the hill billy arguments offered by the believers. If you argue "just cause it says so in the Bible" without any common sense support logic you have immediately lost any standing as far as having the slightest bit of scientific knowledge.

Goodness. So my life of high level electronix in the military and then in the space program was "hillbilly" level work ... at least in your simple logic mind? Fact is, at one point I was church friends with several (obviously iggerient?) space scientists who also worked at the Cape and on the Island. And, before that, we were also close family friends with a dedicated Christian nuclear engineer who worked his whole professional life with Sandia Labs making and upgrading them ol' BIG BANG things. But you may want to ask, "What did those shallow minded guys know about real science, they couldn't have had the penetrating depths and wild suppositions of your "simple logic!" ROFL!

LOL ED, you really are a single track hoot!

[EDG]

So you who taught you all about god? Anyone? You invented your story yourself? How did you decide you were so wise as to think god emanates from a goat herders tales.
High level electronix ? Did they forget to teach you how to read, write and spell in your military schools? Want to connect your so called superior military training to your reasoning for faith or could you never connect scientific fact to tales of the goat herders? It is easy to imply then the only training you have was military electronics schools. You did not attain any real formal training in science and your working career was what? Sitting at a bench with a VOM?

Please explain how the existence of your Sandia friend makes you gain IQ points or stature in the intellectual pursuit of reality? So if you go to the rifle range with a millionaire does that make you rich?

Your shallow attempts at jest are just as shallow as your vague ramblings of scientific prowess. Your claim to having church friends that worked at the cape and some island is more than a little immature and ridiculous. Your church friend's scientific career translates into exactly zero scientific skills for YOU.
Based on your logic you can claim you know all about being pregnant and having babies because you went to church with some women who are mothers. When you use such poor logic you discredit all your arguments.







Ah, 'it appears'? Another fractured collection of your "simple logic" deductions and again you're laffably wrong. My long dead parents weren't religious, I never saw either of them even open a Bible, they "went to church" for occasional weddings and funerals. So ... your simple minded logic missed again! :)



Goodness. So my life of high level electronix in the military and then in the space program was "hillbilly" level work ... at least in your simple logic mind? Fact is, at one point I was church friends with several (obviously iggerient?) space scientists who also worked at the Cape and on the Island. And, before that, we were also close family friends with a dedicated Christian nuclear engineer who worked his whole professional life with Sandia Labs making and upgrading them ol' BIG BANG things. But you may want to ask, "What did those shallow minded guys know about real science, they couldn't have had the penetrating depths and wild suppositions of your "simple logic!" ROFL!

LOL ED, you really are a single track hoot!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

[QUOTE=dverna;4687379]God has not spoken to man for centuries. We have His word in the Bible, but He has not shown himself to us physically or conversed with us directly. Our belief is based solely on faith. QUOTE]

Not a criticism, a comment. God (The Father) and Jesus (The Lord/Christ) are separate entities. The Bible says that "No man has at any time seen God. The entity that Moses saw passing by the cleft in the rock was The Lord who became Christ. As for God not having spoken to man for centuries -- this is something that you can not know, and whether or not Christ has shown himself you can not know. I would not, myself, be so bold as to make those statements. However, I do agree with you that our belief is based on faith.

[1hole]

High level electronix ? Did they forget to teach you how to read, write and spell in your military schools?Well my obviously highly educated friend, most any old electronix guy could tell you that was the insider's choice of spelling the widely varied work we did. But, I'm delighted you raise such a cheep shot; it means you have run out of anything meaningful to say (that didn't take long!) and are now reduced to attempts to "expose" my lack of education and launch a personal attack on me and not my facts ... you having phun yet? ( I am! ;) )

[1hole]

However, I do agree with you that our belief is based on faith. Very true but "faith" is usually somewhat misunderstood, even by lifelong Christians. Faith isn't magic, it's another word for TRUST. We take what we see and read of God to be true because of the evidence before us and, from that we simply place our trust in Him to continue to be true to His promises. We start small but grow in faith as we experience more and more of his loving trustworthiness.

[Blackwater]

Cain's problem with God went beyond faith. He knew first hand that God is God yet he ultimately used Able to hurt God.
With Cain and Adam & Eve there are two perspectives of evil. Adam & Eve affords a more personnel view of a wrong while Cain gives more of a bird's eye view of evil actions. Maybe even a glimpse of what God is up agaisnt with His adversary.

Cain did a series of evil actions that lead to separation while Adam and Eve ultimately repented.

Good post. And I doubt we'll ever understand why many choose the reactions to God that they do. I think Cain thought of God as just another entity, and not as a real, all-powerful God. Otherwise, he wouldn't have tried to vie with Him over such a matter as His rejection of Cain's sacrifice.

And that story also reminds me of those professing Christianity who are in reality, all hollowed out inside by whatever forces they've been subjected to in their time, so DO things that LOOK like Christianity in action, but for which they have no real, true feelings, other than feeling good about themselves because they've immitated a real Christian. God is interested in what's in our hearts, and this is perfectly illustrated by the story of Cain's rebellion against God, and defying God's warning.

This simple story ought to remind more of us, more often, that it's what's in our hearts that matters, even more than what we DO. And God can and often does, use the non-believers to achieve His perfect will. He's THAT powerful!

[Blackwater]

1. Exactly. I can understand people of today, who have no recent "evidence" of God, not believing in Him. But how can anyone who has had contact with God still be an unbeliever? It makes no sense to me.

2. I have learned to ignore the interpretations and preaching of some pastors. They are not bad people, or stupid, or lying...they are just wrong on some things. Yet they can deliver powerful messages that make me think and help me grow my faith.

3. It is possible to have faith in God without having to accept every doctrine of the church. My current church believes in the inerrancy of the Bible...I do not. It can be argued that faith is even stronger if we are not required to be "brain washed" and instead question...yet still believe.

4. Faith is difficult but necessary. But good things are normally not easily acquired.

1. Don, you ask a good question. But what you have to realize is that you're always seeking the truth. It's awfully easy for many to turn aside from the truth in order to serve and complete their own wills, satisfy their appetites, agandize their egos, and all sorts of other reasons. You're a true seeker. Many are not, and a true seeker will never understand those who turn aside from what they know and sense and have been told is what is right and true and good, and go another, more self-serving temptation that's always supplied in abundance by the Evil One and his minions. It's really just that simple.

2. Yep. I think that's about par for the course for a lot of us. When I was young, my little church couldn't afford a really educated preacher, so we got the "fire and brimstone" type, typically. They often preached against the Catholics, and called them a cult, and even implied that their practice may well be satanic, or satanically inspired. And he claimed they worshiped Mary, and not Christ. The only trouble was that I knew some catholics, and they were at least the equal of the baptists I knew in terms of how they lived their daily lives. So, I just passed it off as something I'd find an answer to one day in the future, and left it at that. But I could NEVER have believed the idiotic claims I was subject to about Catholics. They simply weren't true. As a Baptist, I have a lot of trouble thinking of praying for Mary's intercession. And yet, I believe in the Miracle at Lourdes, where Mary came to the 3 children and revealed important messages to them. So how does that make sense? You explain it if you wish to. I'm not sure I can, other than maybe that praying to Mary and her blessed holiness that's fit to carry messages to us mortals are two different things. All I know for sure, is that God always knows what He's doing, whether we can figure it out or not. And I find that satisfying these days. Thank God the world is not truly in OUR hands!!!

3. Many recent converts have trouble accepting the unerrancy of the Bible. It takes time, I think, for most of us to accept that. Much of the doubt, though, is caused by misunderstandings. And there are many ways to misunderstand the Bible. Look at all the sectarian rifts that we have due to differences in INTERPRETATION of the Bible! We all see through the glass darkly, and each of us has his or her own perspective from which to view each verse. How could such divergences of experience possibly glean a single interpretation from any given Bible verse or passage? It ain't gonna' happen. But we ALL have a view of what our eyes should be viewing and studying. If we were more learned, we'd be better at deciphering it all. But how will we ever GET that edification unless we continue our studies? THAT is the big question. Many get frustrated and put the Bible down. That's what I did. And I was so very wrong, and I now rue having done that. I still believed, and went to church, but I missed so much of the "meat" that we can get by studying. And nobody would discuss the Bible, so ...... mostly I just thought to myself, and wondered, and prayed for revelation. I got those revelations, or at least some of them, and boy! Could I ever have used them many years earlier!!! I cheated nobody but my own self. I've always believed, and done so despite temptations to drop it all. I just could have had so much more of the real joy of being a Christian if I'd done my homework like I should have. One of the most promising of all the verses in the Bible is "Seek and ye shall find." He doesn't promise we'll find what we want to. Just that we'll find the true answer if we simply seek with an open mind and a true heart. Seek mischief, and mischief is what we find. Seek Truth, and it will be revealed. God did NOT make the world and Truth, and then mane Truth something so obscure that few can find it. He does NOT play tricks on us. He provides us with everything we need to find the Truth IF we'll just make use of the better parts of our nature, and seek it earnestly, honestly and humbly. The haughty won't accept the Truth when they find it if it interferes with the things they WANT to find and do. I pity them. Turning away from the Maker of All Things is NOT a wise thing to do.

4. Amen. Faith has to be worked toward and worked for. But it is FAR from being "unfindable." And thank Almighty God for that! We serve the most loving, kind, wise God that could ever exist. What a wonder He truly is!

[Blackwater]

I think you might be using the term "unbeliever" in place of "rejector", and I don't think arrogance plays into it at all.

1. An unbeliever is defined as one who has rejected God, so actually, the terms are not only synonyms, but equivalents.

Ponder great big chunks of human history: Your firstborn son died of typhus; your third was stillborn and your wife died with it; your crops were devoured by locusts; the barbarian horde appeared on the horizon, and, not finding any grain to pillage, made off with your only remaining teenage daughter after beating you senseless and allowing the funnier ones among them to sodomize you by the warm firelight of your burning house for a couple hours.

2. God lets some of us suffer so that we might show others the true value of faith and trust and hope. God made us. We are His, always. He can do with us as it pleases Him toward making His plans for us come true. He even uses the profane and non-believing in achieving this. And when we err, which is often, He sends us situations in which we are calculated to learn and repent. He cares for us more than you'll ever allow yourself to admit. And in more ways than you'll ever in your wildest dreams imagine. If you're referring to Job, and his trials, this was a battle between God and Satan, and he showed the real value and worth of faith, hope and trust. But if you don't want the message God has provided to you, then pass on by, and go your own way. You don't need my permission to do that, but you need to know that it's YOU who has decided to do that, and it is NOT nearly as funny as you think it is. But that's on you, not me.

So let's say God DOES show up in a blaze of radiant splendor - you don't deny his existence, but you call B.S. on his job as a boss, since it seems that "faith and adherence to The Plan" requires you to receive an endless series of kicks to the balls and be happy about it. "Sorry bro - if you really were all that and a bag of chips, I'd still have all that and wouldn't be starving 'cuz I'd have a bag of chips to eat."


3. If you reject God's power over you, and superiority to you, let's see YOU create your own little universe! It doesn't even have to be as big as this one to impress us all.

If our problem is an inability to understand God - well, it has been said that a failing of the student to comprehend is a failure of the teacher to transmit the information. God's either a bad teacher, or he made the mistake of creating sentient beings that don't want to be pawns when what he really wants is worker ants - either way, lots of room for a vote of "no confidence" in the Perfect Being theory. And if you want chips, they're available at the stores, but you even have to work for THEM. Why not work a little to really understand your Maker and Judge???

A certain amount of atheism must stem from looking at the choices as (a.) there is a guy at the wheel, but he's drunk out of his mind AND texting, or (b.) there is nobody at the wheel.

4. Once again, you're not nearly as funny as you fancy yourself to be. If that's the way atheists look at the pursuit of understanding God, then they're looking for a sugar daddy who'll acede to their every whim and temptation. Such a god does NOT exist anywhere, and I believe you know that. His name is really Satan, and if you follow him, as you lead us to believe you do, then ..... you have no right to complain when the check comes due. And when you wake up after dying, and find you've been foolish ...... don't blame us here who've tried to "reason" with you, if that's what you call responding to trashy mocking.



Slug, you're so much better than you portray yourself as being in these posts. And you've far more intelligent than you like to appear. Inside us all, is the Spirit of Life that God breathed into humanity when he made the first man, Adam. And with that Spirit, comes a vague recognition of whence it came, and the nature of the One who gave it to us.

You can pack that away and bury it, or you can use it. Your choice, and nobody here is going to make that choice for you. You're responsible for all the choices you make, including being simply wrong, or hard-headed, or brash, or fearful, or whatever. I sincerely wish you well. God be with you.

[Blackwater]

You are betting on nothing but goat herders yarns.


Nope. We're betting on what we've known and experienced. Those "goat herder's yarns" are just for our edification and solace. But you don't WANT to realize that's true, so ... you mock. Your day will come. One day, after you die, you'll awaken, and it will be extremely clear what you've done, and why. God always sees to it that all eventually know the Truth, whether they've ever sought it or not. But you'll wait until then, when it's too late to change anything, to repent. God pays us our wages, eventually, IF we've earned them. The rest He gives to Satan, to live in eternity with him. That's just how it works, and it works this way for everyone. God always knows who's sought Him, and who hasn't.

[Blackwater]

Take it from people who know as in you? jajajajajaja -
It is very apparent that you know very little of science other than a internet article now and then. Why don't you undertake a serious pursuit of science? You would find out it is real whether you believe it or not.
Science is the same from one end of the universe to the other and it is the same for all men everywhere. The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. The laws of physics apply to you and will ALWAYS apply to you and all your Bible beating cohorts whether you like it or not.
Your Bible is nothing more than a collection of oral tales handed down through the ages.
Should all your Bibles be destroyed the entire basis of your faith would vanish. There is no other physical basis for your faith. In contrast the laws of physics are part of the universe and are easily verified. You can destroy the human race yet the physical relationships between mass, energy, temperature, velocity and distance will never change. You can claim that there is some mysterious spiritual existence but about all you will get from that claim in most cases is a snicker.

The real basis for your faith is the inner despair that exists because you cannot deal with the inevitability of death. Your faith in many ways is nothing but a coping mechanism that gives you a the promise of eternal life in exchange for compliance with a specified form of behavior. So while you are only concerned with your own selfish goal of eternal life the members of your faith contribute little to the advancement of life in the here and now. In great contrast, scientists and practitioners of applied science have provided most of the inventions, new materials and processes that make up the modern world.
We all know that MRI, cat scans, X rays did not originate in your Bible. Small pox and polio were not eliminated by your faith. The computer you are using to argue your point was the product of thousands of scientists and engineers. I have worked in that industry for many years. None of it is attributable to your god. In fact many of the engineers and scientists come from other regions of the planet that have no faith or their religion has no connection to the Abrahamic religions. Yet these godless scientists and engineers take advantage of science and the laws of physics to advance mankind on a daily basis. Your faith contributes nothing similar, it never has and it never will. All you faith stricken people can do is worry about dying.

EDG, if you REALLY knew "scientists," you'd know that there is currently a very large and growing belief among scientists, that God and CHrist are both real, and that the Bible does indeed record it all. And there is currently NOTHING in science that can or ever will disprove the least jot or tilttle in the Bible. On the contrary, the more we discover, the more the Bible's words are PROVEN to be correct, and distinctly possible, even to Jesus's having passed through a door to see his followers in the upper room after His crucifixion.

But you've already made your mind up, so you go on believing what you want, and never search further for more modern developments. You really need to keep up, sir!

[Blackwater]

But science is universal whether you are Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or a non believer.

1. Not necessarily. Many have beliefs that defy some of what science has come up with today. Nothing in humankind's masses is "universal." Disparity is more common among men than universiality. I don't think this needs elaboration.

To really know and understand the universe it takes knowing much more than the Bible. Relying on 2000 year old goat herders oral tales is not much of an education for today's world.

2. Again, this simply isn't so. More and more, science is proving that the stories in the Bible is, or at least might be fully 100% true. But again, you haven't looked for that, so again, you haven't found it. But it's true nevertheless. And do you not find it interesting that ONLY in the Bible do we find a story of creation that EXACTLY matches the order that science believes and can all but prove, that it all happened in. The EXACT order! No other early source has even approached the truths (small "t") that are contained in the Bible. And it was written FAR before we had any information that science has given us today. Did you in fact know that the Catholic church owns and fund and operates a huge observatory in order to study the stars, and scientist/priests to man it and study and contemplate the cosmos even further than we now have? So if you think you and others like you are the sole repository of scientific truths/beliefs/theories, you are sadly and badly mistaken. Christians have always searched for the simple (or complex) Truth in any matter, whether it be in the words and teachings of the Christian Bible, or in and among the cosmos itself. You really need to check things out before posting such untruths.

Since you want to quote something old and irrelevant I will quote some logic that even older and yet always relevant - especially the last line.
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to,Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing.Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing, Then whence cometh evil.
If He is neither able nor willingThen why call Him God?

3. Once again, you're painting a picture in these silly questions, of a god who's not God, but some idea of a big sugar daddy in the sky who gives you what you want, and protects you from the consequences of your foolishness, and coddles you in his warm, "caring" arms. REAL Gods are more like a good parent, who disciplines us, and whose purposes extend far beyond our own limited and meager appetites here on earth. So you're looking for a God who does not, and never will, exist. And if that's the kind of "god" you're looking for, no wonder you haven't found Him!



God be with you, and find a way to open your eyes, and soften your hardened heart.

[Blackwater]

An interesting thread for me as an agnostic atheist part time Buddhist and and occasional follower of science. As I read the OP which treats the story of Cain and Abel as an absolute historical fact my certainty is that the story of Cain and Abel is just that, a story. It didn't happen. Neither was the world flooded nor Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt, the Red Sea was not parted, just to name a few. They are all wonderful tales to inspire people to believe in a God that is alleged to be eternally unchanging and yet who, if the Bible is to be believed, changes significantly. A bit like the conundrum "Can God make a weight so heavy he cannot lift it?"

People, believers, often speak of proof in the Bible. There is, I understand, proof of a person called Jesus existing at the time supposed. There is proof that people spoke of miracles and sermons. There can be no proof whatsoever of most of the Old Testament any more than Greek Mythology can be proved by the fact that there does exist a Mount Olympus.

If God is truly God, why could he not perform the things you enumerate? If He made the universe and all in it, why could He not do whatever He wishes, for whatever reasons He finds sufficient? If he can make the universe and all in it, and create all the laws and elements of science, that we are really just beginning to understand, wouldn't doing those things be child's play for Him?

If you really believe in nothing beyond what we can see, touch, taste, feel or smell, how do you explain the existence of the universe? Was it just a cosmic accident? Is it just some dramlike illusion? How do you explain all the order and disorder that is everywhere to be observed? Is that just happenstanve? What makes you believe that? Is it not more likely that it was created? And if it was created, who or what did it? Most of us have a sense of awareness within us, of something that is much, much bigger and more powerful and knowledgeable than we are, that defies explanation. I believe that comes from the Breath of Life that God breathed into us when he made Adam, and each of us since, has that same sense or inate "knowledge" of whence we came. How do you explain this, if indeed you remember when you had it? I'm not mocking you or putting you down. These are simply questions that naturally arise from what you've stated here. I've yet to hear an agnostic or atheist give a good explanation of why they do NOT believe. They simply state their doubts, and that's that. There's no way to argue with a doubt, but info CAN be provided that might bring a doubter to understand belief, even if they don't accept it for themselves.

We believers know what we believe and why, even if many of us can't readily or satisfactorily explain it to the satisfaction of a doubter. We are quite assured of our beliefs, and we are not crazy, nor stupid, nor uninformed. But as can be seen above, many who believe in "science," do not even themselves really understand it. They only understand what they've found to serve their position. I can't really call agnosticism a "belief," because a doubt is not truly a belief, but a LACK of belief. But each of us must find our own way through this world, and the search, or lack therof, for Truth and God is just one of the matters that we have to consider. And in today's world of appetites of all kinds being served, it's awfully easy to get caught up in those, and abandon completely the search for real Truth or for God. That being true, it's no wonder so many have adopted the "belief" in non-belief - a contradiction in terms in and of its own self. But common, nevertheless. (sigh) So many people. So little time.

[Blackwater]

Well, we've done a fine job of turning this thread into a mud-slinging contest. There are some of us seeking more light, and some still satisfied in darkness. So be it. But Christ never gives up on any of us. NEVER! And any who do not presently believe, who finally find the Truth and the Light, are welcome, and no disparagements will ever be hurled at you by the faithful. If any do, you'll know they're not the truly faithful. And all of Heaven rejoices when a "lost soul" finally comes to understand, and believe. So the door's always open for any who'll enter in. It doesn't matter what you've said or done in the past. Once you truly believe, and confess, and give yourself to Christ, all is forgiven, and you get to start anew, with a clean slate. After all, who knows more of the true value of salvation than those who've walked the streets of the other side, and found them less than fully satisfying? Christ loves each one of us, even those who mock us. Many don't LIKE that, but that's how it is. We want retribution, when we should be wanting redemption for our fellow men. Christianity ain't easy, but it's always, always, always, so very much WORTH it!

[1hole]

I'm sure EDG, UK, et al, are "good" guys who are only trying to lead us into their self-satisfied paths to h377.

They mean well but they know nothing about spiritual things but they confidenty proclaim there is no such thing as the unseen forces of Satan. They hold tightly to scientists for all answers because they see scientists but can't "see" God. That's neither wise nor scientific.

We can't "see" gravity or wind either but, by the visible effects we know it's there; ditto the hands of God. I can't "see" my Lord but I sure can see the tracks of his faithfullness in the lives of me and many others so no one who knows absolutely nothing of spiritual things can tell me that He's not there!

The Holy Bible tells us all we need to know about invisible spiritual powers, both good and evil, living around us. The unique continued existence of the Jewish people and the proven trustworthiness of God's written words are, of themselves, sufficent proofs of the Bible.

Just food for thought; if Christians are wrong we still live a good life and loose nothing. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong they lose everything!

Given the impossibly difficult scientific challenges of how things we see came into being demands more blind faith from atheists than I can attain. The only viable answer is that God did it all!

[EDG]

Still preaching Christianity and the Bible as an insurance policy?
That is sort of a low moral motivation for a so called faith in a benevolent being dispensing justice to all mankind don't you think?
Back to gravity and wind - You are displaying your ignorance of science by your statements
Both gravity and wind physical phenomenons that can easily be measured. Your faith and all of its spiritual artifacts only exist in your imagination because not one of them can be measured.
Helen Keller and Ray Charles could have told you that. I suppose you think the entire existence of a blind person does not happen?
Gravity and wind can both move physical matter. Your faith cannot move a grain of sand and you cannot prove it can move a grain of sand.


I'm sure EDG, UK, et al, are "good" guys who are only trying to lead us into their self-satisfied paths to h377.

They mean well but they know nothing about spiritual things but they confidenty proclaim there is no such thing as the unseen forces of Satan. They hold tightly to scientists for all answers because they see scientists but can't "see" God. That's neither wise nor scientific.

We can't "see" gravity or wind either but, by the visible effects we know it's there; ditto the hands of God. I can't "see" my Lord but I sure can see the tracks of his faithfullness in the lives of me and many others so no one who knows absolutely nothing of spiritual things can tell me that He's not there!

The Holy Bible tells us all we need to know about invisible spiritual powers, both good and evil, living around us. The unique continued existence of the Jewish people and the proven trustworthiness of God's written words are, of themselves, sufficent proofs of the Bible.

Just food for thought; if Christians are wrong we still live a good life and loose nothing. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong they lose everything!

Given the impossibly difficult scientific challenges of how things we see came into being demands more blind faith from atheists than I can attain. The only viable answer is that God did it all!

[Blackwater]

God cannot be proved via science. We have faith, because of our experience with him. You can no more prove God's love any more than you can prove you mother loved you. However love of either God or your mother does have an effect on our lives of which we are certain. Yes, I know that makes faith based on subjective experience rather than provable facts. But that is why we call it faith.

I am not an ignorant uneducated man. I will put my educational resume up alongside that of anyone here. Yet, I am a devoted practicing Christian. My faith in Christ is what sustains me in every aspect of my life

Yes, but it's very convenient to have all we now know of science supporting belief. It'll only take us right up to the threshold of belief, but not over it. The rest MUST be made up of faith. And without the "conversion experience," nobody would cross over, I think. That feeling, when you KNOW you're in the presence of God, and that He's reaching out to you to come to Him, and accept His wonderful salvation and Love, is one that conquers all doubts and fears, and coming forward and accepting it all is THE most important step a person can ever make. It's truly beyond words to describe. But it's very, very real, and not just some figment of our imaginations. You can take THAT to the BANK! I feel sorry for those who've never had it, or turned away from it.

But Christ does not, and has NEVER meant for anyone to be damned. Only they can make that decision for themselves. And it's a shame that so many do.

[Blackwater]

Still preaching Christianity and the Bible as an insurance policy?
That is sort of a low moral motivation for a so called faith in a benevolent being dispensing justice to all mankind don't you think?
Back to gravity and wind - You are displaying your ignorance of science by your statements
Both gravity and wind physical phenomenons that can easily be measured. Your faith and all of its spiritual artifacts only exist in your imagination because not one of them can be measured.
Helen Keller and Ray Charles could have told you that. I suppose you think the entire existence of a blind person does not happen?
Gravity and wind can both move physical matter. Your faith cannot move a grain of sand and you cannot prove it can move a grain of sand.

Well now, just what do you think a REAL God should be like????

[EDG]

What should a real god be like? That is so easy.
A real god is omnipotent right? Well then why would a real god bother to put his subjects on trial?
There is no real point in judging his subjects when the god can simply make his subjects do and think as his wishes. There is truly no real point logically to all that you believe. If you do not have logic then you do not really have thought. You are just a sheep. As every farmer knows sheep are the dumbest large animals on a farm. In comparison goats and hogs are brain surgeons compared to sheep.

Why don't you try answering the questions posed?
Your faith cannot move a grain of sand.
Are you a believer only for an implied insurance policy?


Well now, just what do you think a REAL God should be like????

[Sig556r]

Science supporting faith is not an argument I will ever make. It convinces nobody and therefore has no value. Hell fire and damnation is also a vain approach. Fear is not a motivator of faith, love is. In I gave up trying to convince folks to accept what they have already rejected as it is a vain thing in general. Humans are moved to faith by a deep seated emptiness in our hearts and souls. We are created to be connected to our creator and when that connection is broken we feel it, even though we not know why we feel the void in our souls. "We love Him because He first loved us.".

Amen to that Char-Gar...

[T_McD]

Several have implied that the Holy Spirit is how the Lord speaks to man. Is this conscience or something distinct?

[Txcowboy52]

Well said !

[dverna]

Yes, but it's very convenient to have all we now know of science supporting belief. It'll only take us right up to the threshold of belief, but not over it. The rest MUST be made up of faith. And without the "conversion experience," nobody would cross over, I think. That feeling, when you KNOW you're in the presence of God, and that He's reaching out to you to come to Him, and accept His wonderful salvation and Love, is one that conquers all doubts and fears, and coming forward and accepting it all is THE most important step a person can ever make. It's truly beyond words to describe. But it's very, very real, and not just some figment of our imaginations. You can take THAT to the BANK! I feel sorry for those who've never had it, or turned away from it.

But Christ does not, and has NEVER meant for anyone to be damned. Only they can make that decision for themselves. And it's a shame that so many do.

Science puts the age of the universe at 14 billion years. The earth at 3-4 billon years. Man was a result of evolution. Does that mesh with your understanding of the Bible?

I can tell you the Evangelical church I attend does not accept science....in fact science is ridiculed.

[Blackwater]

Science supporting faith is not an argument I will ever make. It convinces nobody and therefore has no value. Hell fire and damnation is also a vain approach. Fear is not a motivator of faith, love is. In I gave up trying to convince folks to accept what they have already rejected as it is a vain thing in general. Humans are moved to faith by a deep seated emptiness in our hearts and souls. We are created to be connected to our creator and when that connection is broken we feel it, even though we not know why we feel the void in our souls. "We love Him because He first loved us.".

I understand, Char-Gar, but I'll just have to disagree with you on this one. If one comes to know and understand that even science now, has come right up to the very threshold of proving that God must be, then how could it not attack and overcome the doubts of those who have traditionally put their faith in science? But you're most definitely right about love being the great motivator that brings folks to Christ. Emphasizing that was Billy Graham's big "secret" in bringing so many to light.

I've seen and heard people approach non-believers with haughty Bible thumping and quoting, and nothing but derision in their voices and hearts, and never have I seen that do anything but push people farther from belief. I know these Bible thumpers mean well. It's just that for most of them, that's all they really know, and when they feel the need to "evangelize," that's all they have to offer. They're not mature yet in our faith. You are. Whenever you speak, I always listen, and listen closely. I would really like to meet you one day, and hear one of your sermons, and shake your hand. You are obviously very mature in our faith, and whenever we disagree, I always remember what you've said. It just might come in handy some time, or lead me to yet another discovery.

And you're also right about that empty hole in the middle of people who do not know Him. I believe that emptiness causes those who don't believe to be like little kids, who've had something taken away, or don't have something that the other kids have. They just react with spitefulness and hatred and do their very best to make those with the goods unhappy and dissatisfied. But it never seems to work, and though they know that, they can't help themselves, and do it anyway. God be with you, my friend. You're always valued here.

[Blackwater]

Several have implied that the Holy Spirit is how the Lord speaks to man. Is this conscience or something distinct?

The Holy Spirit, I believe, is that portion of Christ Himself that He left here on earth to dwell amongst us, and provide us with constant contact with Him. Don't ask how this communication system works, I only know that it does. One doesn't need to know how a cell phone works, technically, in order to use one effectively, right? It's a lot like our souls being a small portion of God, that was instilled within us when God breathed the breath of life into us. Both are immortal, and that tends to mean they're of God, or a part of Him. If God is truly God, then why couldn't He perform this? It would be a very simple task for Him, I think. And as to the Lord speaking to us through the Holy Spirit, how could it not do so, with its being a part of God? So the real question here is how could the Holy Spirit NOT speak to us, isn't it?

[Blackwater]

Science puts the age of the universe at 14 billion years. The earth at 3-4 billon years. Man was a result of evolution. Does that mesh with your understanding of the Bible?

I can tell you the Evangelical church I attend does not accept science....in fact science is ridiculed.

It meshes with my understanding of current scientific theory, and those theories are more and more coming to support and/or prove Christianity and all the stories in it, to if not be True, then at least to be very much credible and believable. More and more scientists at the higher levels, who are not pre-disposed to be averse to belief, and who go where the evidence leads them, are coming to CHrist, and those who disbelieve are having a harder and harder time defending their doubts. So yes, I pretty much believe at this time that God chose to make the universe very much in the way that science describes it. I do NOT believe in Darwinian evolution, as it has come to be defined and perceived, however. Darwin's theory was just that, a THEORY, and he himself in the last chapter of "Origin of Species," enumerated a number of problems with it, and seemingly clearly owned up to its maybe not being quite true. Adaptation has been pretty well proven by current scientific standards, but Darwinian evolution has not, and in fact, the fossil record, which Darwinians had hoped would provide "proof" of the theory, has increasingly cast great doubt on it - enough in fact, to indicate that it is NOT valid!

Most of us put the books down, except maybe the Bible, when we leave high school. Some of us continue reading and learning, even to include the "hard sciences," and the realms of physics are absolutely fascinating. Astronomy, and all it's discovering is also a key to understanding our universe, and whence it came, and why it must be here. And all these DO indeed affect our view of God and His creations, so when we hear of some new discovery, why don't we more mature Christians (none of us ever completes that growth) utilize that knowledge and make it a part of the reasons we believe? When some realize that science truly does support belief, they tend to initially give a look a little like a deer caught in the headlights at night. They'd been led to believe that science and faith MUST be at odds with each other, when nothing could be further from the truth. We've been through many cycles now, of science being claimed to deny our faith, due to some new "discovery," but given a little time, that new "discovery" seems to never pan out, and is replaced by a new explanation that more fully fits, and which unintentionally supports our faith. But most have never heard of these things, and only know what they were taught in high school, or have heard in the mass media, which is also averse to supporting our faith, mostly.

There is no substitute for knowing, and keeping up with science is the only way to NOT come up quoting something that's been supplanted, and is now "old hat," and one with holes in it big enough to drive a Mack truck through! But it's VERY interesting, and even rapturizing sometimes, and anything that edifies us, really, is something that God wants us to be a part of. It's just part of His good will toward us. Plus it keeps us busy, and that in turn keeps us out of trouble. Do we serve a worldly wise God, or not?

[T_McD]

Man creates the problem between religion and science, when he/she makes erroneous assumptions. On the religious side, folks assume that the writer of Genesis intended to write a "scientific" account of the various creations (world, mankind etc.). If we assume that the writer of Genesis was trying to write a theogical statment of the nature of God, the all conflict resolves itself.

The writer of Genesis never trys to explain how, when and where God came into existance. He starts with a given that God does exist and goes on to explain God's nature and power. Go through the first few chapters of Genesis and draw out the verbs of God's actions, i.e., God saw, God named, God separated, God called, etc. etc.. In these verbs we see our first picture of who the God of creation is and the scope of his power and authority over earth and all that is one it.

Bottom line is the animosity between God and science begins with an erroneous assumption about the intent of the writer of Genesis. This comes about when folks take a literal (verbal dictation) theory of the Bible.

People who are "science driven" start with a rejection of a God who creates and then go on to shoe horn all religion into their false assumption. Their understanding of religious faith is very childlike. Some years ago, I bought Arnold Toynbee's one volumn "History of the Earth, which was published after his death. In the first chapter he denies any involvement by God in the history of the Earth. When I read his reason, I was overcome with sadness. This great, highly educated man had a childlike understanding of Judeo/Christian thought. If was obvious he rejected that which he did not understand and so it goes with many science types.

Thus, we have this and similiar threads and arguments. I realize that nothing I have said, could say or will say can change anybody's base assumption. But hey, it is worth a shot. I will now leave you good folks to return to your respective corners and get ready for the next round.

To start your post with that and then follow with a string of assumptions is quite ironic

[Blackwater]

To start your post with that and then follow with a string of assumptions is quite ironic

You can call them assumptions or whatever you wish, but we're talking here about faith and Truth, and those things are rather concrete, when they're found, and not subject to "assumptions." I'd think you knew the difference.

[T_McD]

The fact that he seems to know what millions of separate people think (based off one dudes book) is an assumption. One that has nothing to do one’s faith.

[T_McD]

Not one dudes book. I spend 50+ years in academic study, follow up research and real world experience, all to be a teacher of the Christian faith and how it operates in the real world. Throw in for good measure a serious study of how human beings and human society functions. This is the path God placed me upon and what I know and understand was hard won over an extended period of time. In those 50+ years, I have been a Pastor, Missionary and Univ. Professor. I hold a Bachelor's degree, a Masters degree and two Doctoral degrees, all from fully accredited institutions of higher learning.

I am not trying to blow my own horn, but to inform you of my background and standing to say the things I have said. What I say is not a chain of assumptions, as you so wrongly assert, nor the product of "one dudes book". It is knowledge accumulated over a half century of study and experience.

I am very near the end of my run now, and I share what I know and not what I assume. Accept or reject, it makes no difference to me, how I feel or what I think.

I pray God's richest blessings on you and all that read this. This ends my involvement in this and like threads on this board. I won't get sucked into an ongoing debate on the subject at hand.

All that and you still falsely assume that folks have rejected God. Perhaps not everyone believes exactly like you do.

[Thundarstick]

Not one dudes book. I spend 50+ years in academic study, follow up research and real world experience, all to be a teacher of the Christian faith and how it operates in the real world. Throw in for good measure a serious study of how human beings and human society functions. This is the path God placed me upon and what I know and understand was hard won over an extended period of time. In those 50+ years, I have been a Pastor, Missionary and Univ. Professor. I hold a Bachelor's degree, a Masters degree and two Doctoral degrees, all from fully accredited institutions of higher learning.

I am not trying to blow my own horn, but to inform you of my background and standing to say the things I have said. What I say is not a chain of assumptions, as you so wrongly assert, nor the product of "one dudes book". It is knowledge accumulated over a half century of study and experience.

I am very near the end of my run now, and I share what I know and not what I assume. Accept or reject, it makes no difference to me, how I feel or what I think.

I pray God's richest blessings on you and all that read this. This ends my involvement in this and like threads on this board. I won't get sucked into an ongoing debate on the subject at hand.

This, this here! This is what I mean when I say, "I do not have blind faith."! The proof is out there, that the Bible, especially the New Testament, is the most reliable of ancient manuscripts! Whether you study and research yourself, is up to you. Likewise, belief is also up to you!

[T_McD]

Correct, there is no need for "blind faith". In my case, I became a Christian at age 29 because of a deep need in my heart. However, I was not willing to accept New Testament Scripture as the "the rule and guide for faith and practice" until I had convinced myself that it was indeed a true, accurate and reliable set of documents. To that end I closed up my Law Office and entered Seminary.

By the end of my first year in Seminary, my time in the libary gave me confidence in New Testatment documents as true, accurate and reliable. I did not learn this in class as the various professors assumed it to be so and did not attempt to provide evidence to support their beliefs. Lawyers are trained to do research and that served me well as I haunted the Seminary Library.

I went to Seminary to answer questions and while there, received my calling to ministry. The rest as they say, is history.

So, I had faith, but it was not blind. I had to satisfy my mind as well. Folks who hold that the Christian faith has no intellectual and historical credibility just have not studied enough to know what they are talking about.

I have learned along the way that it is useless to argue with the faithless. The time and energy are better used in more fruitful ways. Faithful people can have their faith enhanced through solid teaching. Faithless people have to pee on the electric fence.

Best wishes and prayer for your long and useful life.

We are not so far off as you imagine. Your personal evidence is simply not enough for me. You had to convince yourself, that to me is telling.

Where you find me faithless, I find you slightly arrogant to assume you have it all figured out. I imagine we are not too different morally, but disagree on our thoughts of the afterlife.

[T_McD]

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I have not considered how far or how close we may be on any subject. I am simply stating the facts, as I know them to be. I never said, anything about finding you faithless. The statement I made was broad, general and not directed to anybody specific. I never accused you of finding me faithless. I simply said I fit into your definition of it. Failure to take other people’s thoughts into account fits into my definition of arrogance.

I have been called arrogant before, and am not bothered by it. My Grandfather, who raised me, told me "Son, if you don't want to make waves, don't every say nothing, don't ever do nothing and don't ever be nothing.". I guess being called arrogant just goes with the role of trying to teach the faith. I don't think teaching confusion and uncertainity goes with the role of being a teacher of the faith. You are throwing around the two extremes as if a middle ground does not exist. You can be sure of your own faith, but it does little to encourage others to believe. Likewise my uncertainty does not mean I believe in nothing, but rather that what was enough for you is insufficient for me.

I don't recall any conversation about the "afterlife" so I can't see how you would know what I believe on that subject. True but I feel it appropriate to assume a little given the background you shared. Identifying as a Christian does mean something to me.

I can understand that many don’t like their beliefs challenged, but this is a thread on the difficulty of faith in the “deep theological” sub forum. And to be fair, I am not picking on you but my questions are the culmination of several discussions I have had with various members here. I am not trying to get into a pissing match but rather attempting to comprehend a different point of view.

[Thundarstick]

"Best wishes and prayer for your long and useful life."

Char-Gar, this is indeed a blessing from you. I pray, I use my life to the glory of God!

[Thundarstick]

T McD
"attempting to comprehend a different point of view"


If you seek comprehension, perhaps you'll consider posting the points you question.

I have a few I'd like to see discussed, but am reluctant to pose them at this time. You see, just because I don't agree with a nuance in my brothers understanding, I have no desire to tear him down, or invite the scoffers an opportunity.

[T_McD]

T McD
"attempting to comprehend a different point of view"


If you seek comprehension, perhaps you'll consider posting the points you question.

I have a few I'd like to see discussed, but am reluctant to pose them at this time. You see, just because I don't agree with a nuance in my brothers understanding, I have no desire to tear him down, or invite the scoffers an opportunity.

First off, feel free to ask any questions, I’m game.

My questions are:

How can one know the true nature of God? My premise is one cannot, we can just grasp at straws of partial truths.

Given that, when does confidence turn into arrogance? How can you be so sure of your thoughts on God? At some point insistence on the “right” way is nothing more than common vanity.

[Thundarstick]

Define "truth"?

I'll add, define God as well.

[T_McD]

Define "truth"?

I'll add, define God as well.

Truth is hard to define, I will readily admit. Truth is a constant, unchanging and universally applicable. If something meets that criteria, I would say it’s true. Feel free to add or critique.

The definition of God is what I feel is unknowable. We can use Christ for the sake of this discussion, but my question is independent of deity.

[UKShootist]

The first question must be "Is there a God?" That is a reasonable starting point I feel.

If your answer is "No there isn't." Then that sorts that out. Pretty much end of discussion. Why argue after all?

If your answer is "Yes there is." then the next question is, "What is God Like?"

That is where the complications set in. Far too many to adequately present even a sample of views here.

Here is my major objection to the perspective of many Christians though. I present this as religious discussion here centres upon Christianity.

Imagine a good man. A doctor perhaps who has saved many lives, done many good works, has hurt nobody, and who is a very kind and humble man who prays many times a day. He is a Muslim. (For the avoidance of doubt he prays to the same God as Christians and Jews. He thinks of that God somewhat differently to Christians and Jews, but it is categorically and beyond the slightest doubt the same God.) Such good people do exist BTW for those who are wondering. One day a Christian 'missionary' for lack of a better word, knocks on his door, hands him a bible, and gives him words of Christ as the only route to salvation. The doctor thanks him kindly, closes the door, and puts the bible away because he feels he has no need of it, the Koran serves his needs and has done since he was born. He continues his good works till the day he dies. According to very many Christians he is off to hell for all eternity, trillions upon trillions of years burning there. Really? This is the decree of a kind and loving God? And don't kid me that it's due to the decisions of this good and kind man. According to that type of Christian, it's God that made the rules, and if those rules are utterly unfair and indeed cruel, where's the love in that?

Of course, that's not the views of all Christians, just an unknown, to me, percentage (probably most here, at a guess). Some Christians will say that such a man will be welcomed in heaven, judged upon his life. So, back to the eternal question, which Christians do I follow?

[Thundarstick]

Truth is hard to define, I will readily admit. Truth is a constant, unchanging and universally applicable. If something meets that criteria, I would say it’s true. Feel free to add or critique.

The definition of God is what I feel is unknowable. We can use Christ for the sake of this discussion, but my question is independent of deity.

Truth is where most get hung up. In our daily lives we really accept many things as truth. Ex. My car it won't explode when I turn the ignition on, we trust in that truth, my food won't poison me, when I pull the trigger on my 375 H&H it's not going to pt the breach through my skull. In a court no one is ever convicted on absolute truth, jurors are instructed to use a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. Why? Because there can always be an imaginary scenario where the one on trial is innocent, and you would never be able to disprove these imaginary scenarios.

If your willing to accept a beyond reasonable doubt definition, the conversation can proceed, but if one must disprove every imagined scenario in order to prove truth, that is a self defeating exercise leading to futility.

Christ, ok. I'll add father God, the creator.

[dverna]

Correct, there is no need for "blind faith". In my case, I became a Christian at age 29 because of a deep need in my heart. However, I was not willing to accept New Testament Scripture as the "the rule and guide for faith and practice" until I had convinced myself that it was indeed a true, accurate and reliable set of documents. To that end I closed up my Law Office and entered Seminary.

By the end of my first year in Seminary, my time in the libary gave me confidence in New Testatment documents as true, accurate and reliable. I did not learn this in class as the various professors assumed it to be so and did not attempt to provide evidence to support their beliefs. Lawyers are trained to do research and that served me well as I haunted the Seminary Library.

I went to Seminary to answer questions and while there, received my calling to ministry. The rest as they say, is history.

So, I had faith, but it was not blind. I had to satisfy my mind as well. Folks who hold that the Christian faith has no intellectual and historical credibility just have not studied enough to know what they are talking about.

I have learned along the way that it is useless to argue with the faithless. The time and energy are better used in more fruitful ways. Faithful people can have their faith enhanced through solid teaching. Faithless people have to pee on the electric fence.

Best wishes and prayer for your long and useful life.

Yes!!!

I would have remained an atheist, if I had not been advised to start with the NT.

It is sad that the Bible starts with an account of creation that, if taken literally, is so patently unsupported by what man now believes about the earth and universe.

[Rizzo]

.....Imagine a good man. A doctor perhaps who has saved many lives, done many good works, has hurt nobody, and who is a very kind and humble man who prays many times a day. He is a Muslim. (For the avoidance of doubt he prays to the same God as Christians and Jews. He thinks of that God somewhat differently to Christians and Jews, but it is categorically and beyond the slightest doubt the same God.) Such good people do exist BTW for those who are wondering. One day a Christian 'missionary' for lack of a better word, knocks on his door, hands him a bible, and gives him words of Christ as the only route to salvation. The doctor thanks him kindly, closes the door, and puts the bible away because he feels he has no need of it, the Koran serves his needs and has done since he was born. He continues his good works till the day he dies. According to very many Christians he is off to hell for all eternity, trillions upon trillions of years burning there. Really? This is the decree of a kind and loving God? And don't kid me that it's due to the decisions of this good and kind man. According to that type of Christian, it's God that made the rules, and if those rules are utterly unfair and indeed cruel, where's the love in that?

Of course, that's not the views of all Christians, just an unknown, to me, percentage (probably most here, at a guess). Some Christians will say that such a man will be welcomed in heaven, judged upon his life. So, back to the eternal question, which Christians do I follow?

Some time ago I posted a similar scenario where a boy is born into a Jewish family, is taught their culture and loves God to a point where he becomes a rabii and spends his life spreading God's word.
The rabii ultimately dies. He is one of God's chosen people. What happens to him?
He ends up seeing St. Peter at the Gates of Heaven and Peter says NOPE....you did not follow Jesus. Door number two over there for you!

For a Christian, the answer is that the rabii does not get into heaven because of a passage in the Bible that says basically you do not get to the Father unless you go through Jesus.

That viewpoint excludes anybody who isn't Christian from getting into heaven.
I do not believe that. Somehow that notion from the Bible has been mistranslated or misunderstood as to what Jesus was saying and has caused much prejudice against many God loving people who are not Christians.

[T_McD]

Truth is where most get hung up. In our daily lives we really accept many things as truth. Ex. My car it won't explode when I turn the ignition on, we trust in that truth, my food won't poison me, when I pull the trigger on my 375 H&H it's not going to pt the breach through my skull. In a court no one is ever convicted on absolute truth, jurors are instructed to use a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. Why? Because there can always be an imaginary scenario where the one on trial is innocent, and you would never be able to disprove these imaginary scenarios.

If your willing to accept a beyond reasonable doubt definition, the conversation can proceed, but if one must disprove every imagined scenario in order to prove truth, that is a self defeating exercise leading to futility.

Christ, ok. I'll add father God, the creator.

I am ok with that, however I suspect our discussion will hinge on our level of “reasonable”. But yes I agree if we get too bogged down in the details we can’t really discuss much.

[1hole]

God's Book is man's insight into what he thinks. Miss that fact and we delude ourselves because He didn't ask any of us what we think He should think about anything.

Many moral people, including Jews, proclaimed Christians and "good" pagans, trip themselves up by assuming salvation is earned by good deeds and, by that measure, they conclude they and others like them will surely pass into glory because they have earned a reward (Acts 4:12).

Well, .... IF salvation is a thing we could earn, they would be right. But, they are wrong. Jesus' salvation is a gift HE has paid for, not a "salary" we have earned! And Jesus obviously doesn't much care what any of us "thinks" about it. (See Mt 7:21-23)

Bottomline, no one earns a right to heaven. So, spiritually, all that being humanly "good" gains anyone is a cooler spot in hell. (And a LOT of misled Christians strongly disagree with that but they are wrong too!)

God is just, he will send no one to hell, that's a decision we each make for ourselves (John 3:18).

On the "Great White Throne Judgement Day" God will send those who reject the freely offered gift of salvation by faith in Jesus to the just level of eternal discomfort they've earned, no more, no less. (Rev 20:11-15)

[UKShootist]

On the "Great White Throne Judgement Day" God will send those who reject the freely offered gift of salvation by faith in Jesus to the just level of eternal discomfort they've earned, no more, no less. (Rev 20:11-15)

I see nothing whatever in the quoted passage of the KJV bible that mentions anything about that anyone who rejects the freely offered gift of salvation by faith in Jesus. In fact I might take comfort from the repeated statement that they were judged by their works and not by their faith. Sure, there is a hint about those not recorded in the book, but no specific exclusion on the basis of a lack of faith which, being fairly important in the eyes of some, might have been worth a mention.


Revelation 20:11-15 King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[1hole]

I see nothing whatever in the quoted passage of the KJV bible that mentions anything about that anyone who rejects the freely offered gift of salvation by faith in Jesus. In fact I might take comfort from the repeated statement that they were judged by their works and not by their faith.

You fail to understand who is standing before the Throne and why they are there! Thus you make my point that many assume man has to earn his salvation vs. it actually being a free gift of God, obtained by our faith (trust) in the Lord because of his blood sacrifice on the cross.

Read John 3:18 my friend, then try to grasp that all those resurrected people standing before the Great White Throne for the final judgement are the self-condemned, lost by their own will. Again, they will indeed be judged/punished for their deeds in the flesh. And there will be a cold comfort for how sweet you have been on that day.

[Thundarstick]

I am ok with that, however I suspect our discussion will hinge on our level of “reasonable”. But yes I agree if we get too bogged down in the details we can’t really discuss much.

I present we can reasonably ascertain the nature of God through witnesses and observation. For instance, everything we know of in our realm is subject to ordered laws, this points to a creator. One nature of God, he is not a God of chaos, but of order.

[UKShootist]

You fail to understand who is standing before the Throne and why they are there! Thus you make my point that many assume man has to earn his salvation vs. it actually being a free gift of God, obtained by our faith (trust) in the Lord because of his blood sacrifice on the cross.

Read John 3:18 my friend, then try to grasp that all those resurrected people standing before the Great White Throne for the final judgement are the self-condemned, lost by their own will. Again, they will indeed be judged/punished for their deeds in the flesh. And there will be a cold comfort for how sweet you have been on that day.

You offer a Bible verse as truth and then deny that truth when it is challenged. Is it me that is failing to understand or you? What I see in people's faith is as much a willingness to disbelieve, or even to ignore completely, what doesn't suit their belief. The Revelations verse you offered is one that makes complete sense in any judgement scenario. How willing people can be to allow into heaven only those that agree with their particular interpretation of their faith.

IT does occur to me that if simply not believing in Jesus in the prescribed manner will end up as badly as it is possible to end up then what possible motivation is there to be anything but pure evil. It would hardly seem to make a difference after all. And if I believe in Jesus then why shouldn't I be as bad as I like because that will get me into heaven? Rasputin committed about every sin in the book, but prayed to God and believed in Jesus. His theory was that you had to sin in order to gain the forgiveness of God and be returned to grace. It seems odd, but he believed it because he had faith.

Could this insistence upon a particular variety of faith be nothing more than making sure the collection plate of a chosen faith is full on Sundays?

I had a look at John 3:18 BTW. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." What if a man believes entirely in Jesus and His words but completely disagrees with most of the Old Testament? I see no words in that verse that moderate the Revelations verse you quoted. Indeed, the Revelations might seem to offer a more certain perspective than one man's words that may be out of context, possibly mistranslated. I would have to offer the possibility that your understanding of this issue is determined by what you believe, because if that belief is challenged then all of your beliefs may likewise fail under scrutiny.

[T_McD]

I present we can reasonably ascertain the nature of God through witnesses and observation. For instance, everything we know of in our realm is subject to ordered laws, this points to a creator. One nature of God, he is not a God of chaos, but of order.

With you so far. My main issue arises when I am forced to “choose” a deity. Going from a creator to Christ/Father as the creator is my hang up. Where are the observations and witnesses for that?

[6bg6ga]

I think the literal interpretation of those sections of the old testament is leading you astray. They are parables. They are not historical events. Look for the lesson don't treat them like they were real people.

Tim

I agree completely. There is a difference between a parable and true real life. A parable if memory is correct was meant to teach a specific lesson. I simple do not take what is in the bible as fact( my opinion which deserves as much respect as yours does). Religions basically does several things... to be basic here it throws a scare into people enough that they will behave. Secondly it satisfies the psychological need to believe in something higher up the chain than we are.

[UKShootist]

I agree completely.

The problem is, a whole load of Christians will disagree completely.


There is a difference between a parable and true real life. A parable if memory is correct was meant to teach a specific lesson. I simple do not take what is in the bible as fact( my opinion which deserves as much respect as yours does). Religions basically does several things... to be basic here it throws a scare into people enough that they will behave. Secondly it satisfies the psychological need to believe in something higher up the chain than we are.

[T_McD]

There are very few, if any, parables in the OT. There are several different types of OT literature but parables is not one of them.

One the other hand, parables was a common Rabinical teaching tool in Jesus's time and He used the parable with great effect. Preachers of today still use the parable, but we call them "illustrations".

It just seems illogical to think that your holy writ is somehow categorically different than any other. It seems like many here, myself included, demand that miraculous claims be paired with extraordinary evidence.

How was the red sea parted? How was the lambs wool wet with no dew and dry with dew? How did mortals escape a nazi style death furnace? How did trumpets destroy Jericho? How was a river turned to blood?

These questions did not spring from an unbelieving mind, but rather from one who was trained from his youth to believe. To ignore them seems like we are just pretending at believing. If your pastor claimed to do these things, proof would be demanded. How then can you justify believing in ancient miracles?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

With God, nothing is impossible. If you believe in God and understand this, then miracles past and present are unquestioned as to the "how". If you do not believe in God no one can argue you into believing. "The Lord calls whom he will." You can squinch your eyes closed and put your fingers in your ears, but if he calls you, you will hear. Conversely, you can diligently seek him, and he may or may not allow you to find him, although "it is his wish that not one should perish." Perhaps, if you are eventually called and someday you meet him, you can ask about the Red Sea. How can man explain how God performs miracles, other than to acknowledge that what happened was impossible for man to perform, but not for God?
Today many of God's miracles are performed in the area of healing. It's not hard at all to find cases of persons afflicted with cancer that have been written off as terminal, and yet they are later found to be cancer free. Medical science doesn't understand it, but God does.

[T_McD]

I am just stating what is Biblical scholarship 101 (types of Biblical literature) taught in about 100% of the Seminaries accross the globe. I said nothing about the content. Again...I am not going to be drawn into a useless argument with you. Try all you want, but it will not happen. You are a guy who treats all of this, as some kind of sport. I do not, so I will not play this childish game. I have heard your points over, over and over again for a half century from scoffers.

If you did not want discussion, feel free to not post here. I do not have these discussions in the chapel, if you desire an echo chamber then find one.

[T_McD]

With God, nothing is impossible. If you believe in God and understand this, then miracles past and present are unquestioned as to the "how". If you do not believe in God no one can argue you into believing. "The Lord calls whom he will." You can squinch your eyes closed and put your fingers in your ears, but if he calls you, you will hear. Conversely, you can diligently seek him, and he may or may not allow you to find him, although "it is his wish that not one should perish." Perhaps, if you are eventually called and someday you meet him, you can ask about the Red Sea. How can man explain how God performs miracles, other than to acknowledge that what happened was impossible for man to perform, but not for God?
Today many of God's miracles are performed in the area of healing. It's not hard at all to find cases of persons afflicted with cancer that have been written off as terminal, and yet they are later found to be cancer free. Medical science doesn't understand it, but God does.

Why when I ask questions am I labeled an unbeliever? I have stated many times that I believe in god. Is it heretical to have questions and expect more than “because Jesus said so”?

[UKShootist]

There is a certain type of Christian who will state their beliefs then when challenged will refuse to discuss anything further, considering that anyone questioning beliefs, some of which can seem quite preposterous, and many just a personal interpretation of Bible verses of an equivocal nature. If pressed they will damn their critic to hell, literally. They seem unable to understand that there are many different types of Christians, many of whom disagree with them, often quite profoundly. As always, the genuine seeker is left to choose which particular interpretation to adopt. Some Christians, not necessarily anyone here, have struck me as a sort of person that Jesus would not wish to be seen in company with, but boy, can they thump a bible. Others seem decent and kind, and open to discussion. Which to choose, which to choose?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Why when I ask questions am I labeled an unbeliever? I have stated many times that I believe in god. Is it heretical to have questions and expect more than “because Jesus said so”?

I am quite positive that I did not say that you are an unbeliever. That is something I can not know-- only you can. And yet, if you are (or anyone else is) a believer, part of believing is faith.

God is the Supreme Being. He does not owe you, or I, an explanation for anything. In the Bible He says that "My thoughts are not your thoughts. My thoughts are high above yours." If one is a believer they must understand that we can not comprehend his methods or motives. But we do need to be very glad and grateful that he has included us in his plans, and have enough humanity and generosity to hope that many others will take him up on his offer of salvation, and then attempt to live according to his wishes.

I used to be a real Pit Warrior, but have backed off because like Char-Gar says such arguments or discussions reach a point of futility. I think it is appreciated that you keep your skepticism out of The Chapel, and those like myself who respond to the offered bait should exercise more restraint. I only chimed in because I hate to see my brothers stand up for their beliefs without support. I have found, again like Char-Gar, that I can make 5 or 6 points that are rather unassailable, and the non-believers will just pass over them and set up a straw man to argue against. Some of these folks are definitely religious trolls, seeking only to get a rise out of the believers. The same names always show up, over and over. Some profess themselves shocked that Christians use the scriptures as a defense. Kind of like being amazed that a dog uses its teeth to bite. After all, what is the basis of Christianity?

The Bible also says that all shall stand before the throne of God to give an accounting of themselves. Those who's names are found in the Book of Life will be justified or pardoned, as you wish to interpret it. It is also called Mercy. I know that I can use a whole truck load of that, as I wasn't always the best person, and still have glaring faults. But I'm working on it. I wonder what the non-believers will answer to Him. "Well, Great God, I did this and that because I didn't believe you existed.....despite the existence of the owner's manual you left for us to read, and countless people who told me that you did, and the many wonders you performed that were described as miracles, for which I wanted an explanation of how you did them, not being content and awed by the fact that you did do them. And...uhhh...."

So, this is my last contribution to this thread. I'd much rather concentrate on other areas of the forum, as I've already found Jesus, and can only hope that others will as well, but am not the best evangelist. May God bless you.

DG

[dtknowles]

There are very few, if any, parables in the OT. There are several different types of OT literature but parables is not one of them.

One the other hand, parables was a common Rabinical teaching tool in Jesus's time and He used the parable with great effect. Preachers of today still use the parable, but we call them "illustrations".

If Genesis is not a parable, what is it?

If Jonah is not a parable, what is it?

Do you believe they are factual history?

Tim

[dtknowles]

I am quite positive that I did not say that you are an unbeliever. That is something I can not know-- only you can. And yet, if you are (or anyone else is) a believer, part of believing is faith.

God is the Supreme Being. He does not owe you, or I, an explanation for anything. In the Bible He says that "My thoughts are not your thoughts. My thoughts are high above yours." If one is a believer they must understand that we can not comprehend his methods or motives. But we do need to be very glad and grateful that he has included us in his plans, and have enough humanity and generosity to hope that many others will take him up on his offer of salvation, and then attempt to live according to his wishes.

I used to be a real Pit Warrior, but have backed off because like Char-Gar says such arguments or discussions reach a point of futility. I think it is appreciated that you keep your skepticism out of The Chapel, and those like myself who respond to the offered bait should exercise more restraint. I only chimed in because I hate to see my brothers stand up for their beliefs without support. I have found, again like Char-Gar, that I can make 5 or 6 points that are rather unassailable, and the non-believers will just pass over them and set up a straw man to argue against. Some of these folks are definitely religious trolls, seeking only to get a rise out of the believers. The same names always show up, over and over. Some profess themselves shocked that Christians use the scriptures as a defense. Kind of like being amazed that a dog uses its teeth to bite. After all, what is the basis of Christianity?

The Bible also says that all shall stand before the throne of God to give an accounting of themselves. Those who's names are found in the Book of Life will be justified or pardoned, as you wish to interpret it. It is also called Mercy. I know that I can use a whole truck load of that, as I wasn't always the best person, and still have glaring faults. But I'm working on it. I wonder what the non-believers will answer to Him. "Well, Great God, I did this and that because I didn't believe you existed.....despite the existence of the owner's manual you left for us to read, and countless people who told me that you did, and the many wonders you performed that were described as miracles, for which I wanted an explanation of how you did them, not being content and awed by the fact that you did do them. And...uhhh...."

So, this is my last contribution to this thread. I'd much rather concentrate on other areas of the forum, as I've already found Jesus, and can only hope that others will as well, but am not the best evangelist. May God bless you.

DG

"God is the Supreme Being. He does not owe you, or I, an explanation for anything."

This is a completely appropriate item for deeply theological discussion.

The Bible even seems to indicate that God agrees he owes us both and explanation and a covenant, a deal!

The first deal, "the Old Covenant was a conditional or bilateral agreement that God made with the Israelites"

The new deal, "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people. The new covenant comes through the death of Jesus Christ."

If God did not believe we deserved an explanation why did he create the God inspired books called the Bible.

I believe that God knew we would struggle to understand and so maybe nudged some early thinkers to provide guidance those nudges led to many religions and books.

It might be time for a third covenant.

Tim

[UKShootist]

"God is the Supreme Being. He does not owe you, or I, an explanation for anything."

If he exists.


This is a completely appropriate item for deeply theological discussion.

I'd go with that.


The Bible even seems to indicate that God agrees he owes us both and explanation and a covenant, a deal!

If he's made life then he has an obligation to it. Just like any parent owes an obligation to a child.


The first deal, "the Old Covenant was a conditional or bilateral agreement that God made with the Israelites"

Or so the Israelites say, and they are hardly likely to argue with being told they are God's chosen people.


The new deal, "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people. The new covenant comes through the death of Jesus Christ."

Does that mean that the new deal still applies only to Israelites?


If God did not believe we deserved an explanation why did he create the God inspired books called the Bible.

Perhaps He didn't. But if you accept that possibility then it can be applied to all of the other religions that claim to have a special book.


I believe that God knew we would struggle to understand and so maybe nudged some early thinkers to provide guidance those nudges led to many religions and books.

If it was that difficult then why not make it just little bit more obvious? Anyone reading the Old Testament can be left in no doubt that God was not shy about revealing his existence at all. Why so shy for the last two thousand years?


It might be time for a third covenant.
Tim

Certainly time for something.

[UKShootist]

To return to the original question, Why faith is so difficult? Well, of course, to the faithful it's the easiest thing on the world. All you have to do is believe. Even if they doubt from time to time, that doubt is about their belief, and then seeking confirmation of that belief.

From the perspective of a person without any religion faith things are entirely different. For a person who follows a scientific approach to life, being proved wrong on some point of, say, physics or perhaps astronomy, is called learning. For the faithful to be proved wrong is akin to heresy. How can their belief, and therefore their God, be wrong?

It is an undeniable fact, and this may hurt some people's feelings but that is not the intent, that significant 'standard' statements made by the faithful appear to 'unbelievers' to be at best unreasonable and at worst, verging upon the preposterous. The unbeliever then has to choose between so many different, and equally doubtful, faiths each supported by self serving books, proclaiming they are the one true guide. Searching for the truth of the matter is made even more complicated by some of the theological acrobatics engaged in by the faithful. The most common is "Because it says so in this book." It is also certain that by definition, if you can prove your faith then it is no longer faith, it's science. But, as I have said, the theological gymnastics are such that the standard of proof acceptable to the faithful is often utterly illogical, or at best, merely appears so to the unconvinced.

The usual closure in such discussions is the faithful refusing to engage in any discussion of real consequence, usually calling the doubter names before damning them to hell for all eternity, and refusing to discuss any difficult question because they feel insulted by it. Still, things have improved. It's been some time since Christians felt the need to hang Quakers. See what I mean?

[1hole]

.... It's been some time since Christians felt the need to hang Quakers. See what I mean?

Goodness. Where in the world do you get your information?

[1hole]

Well UK, I'm something of a student of American history and never heard of that; so where did you get it?

Hope you find my response interesting.

You are obviously a well educated and intellectual man. So, assuming your unbiased account to be true, I would first note for your consideration we were an extension of your English king in 1660. Thus, there was no "American" establishment at all and you know it.

I'm sure you are also well aware that what would become the United States began and long remained a few scattered groups of intolerant and hard nosed farmers - almost entirely British - until well after 1776/1812. Our founders fought very hard for several years to eject English control so please don't try to push responsibility for the atrocities you cite on us.

[Blackwater]

UK, if you accept anyone who labels themselves "Christian" as being so, then you are NOT the discerning man I have long taken you to be. People given over to emotional extremes have been led to Christ, and instead of receiving Christ in reality, they instead received a good excuse to hate and go after others in order to satisfy their own blood lust. If I called myself a pound cake, would you try to eat me? Of course not! Well, don't do something similar in treating these examples you cite as being "Christian." THey just called themselves Christian, and behaved as something QUITE different. That's how we who ARE Christian explain it. Does it meet with your satisfaction, and clarify things for you?

[dverna]

There are “Christians” who would burn the homes of homosexuals. So never accept that someone who professes to be a Christian will act as one under every situation.

There are “Christians” that molest children.

So UK Shootist, what label a person applies to themselves is not a measure of the label.

Fortunately for those who abuse the label Christian, I am not God. I could never forgiven many for the evils they have done to others. Maybe someday I will understand why God will forgive us just as easily fior minor sins as for the most heinous atrocities man is capable of....but I am not there yet.

Faith is not easy.

[Thundarstick]

.


And



Two good posts that contain much sense. The problem is they introduce shades of grey into what is all too often thought of as black or white. This conforms the different degrees of Christianity that I have been barracked with on this and other threads. To the outsider (me) it can only end in me making up my own mind and interpreting both faith and the bible as I believe it to be. This is, of course and as you will obviously know, will be considered by some (many?) to be a straight road to hell and I'm in the fast lane.

As I have said a number of times, I believe I have more faith in Jesus that many who profess Christianity. I doubt that a just God would let a little thing like my death interfere with my salvation being available through a good life and not just through accepting words I cannot believe.

If you have any faith in Jesus, at all, you owe it to yourself to study what he taught about God, himself, and what pleases our creator father God. Then perhaps reevaluate what you think about him. Christianity is a relationship a Christian grows in, and not one in that we are perfect in immediately. Depending on where one is in understanding will yealed different answers to the same question.

[Thundarstick]

Ain't that both the truth and the problem.

Indeed

[Blackwater]

.


And



Two good posts that contain much sense. The problem is they introduce shades of grey into what is all too often thought of as black or white. This conforms the different degrees of Christianity that I have been barracked with on this and other threads. To the outsider (me) it can only end in me making up my own mind and interpreting both faith and the bible as I believe it to be. This is, of course and as you will obviously know, will be considered by some (many?) to be a straight road to hell and I'm in the fast lane.

As I have said a number of times, I believe I have more faith in Jesus that many who profess Christianity. I doubt that a just God would let a little thing like my death interfere with my salvation being available through a good life and not just through accepting words I cannot believe.

Seeing "gray areas" in the two posts you list is NOT going to pass muster here. We explained that there is a difference between CLAIMING to be Christian, and actually BEING one. There's no gray area between those two. I'd think a man of your extreme faith in your own rationality would have spotted that error .... if it wasn't intended to start with?

And there are NO "degrees" of Christianity. There's only levels of maturity and understanding. God is not an easy subject to grasp and understand. Newly professed Christians need a lot of help and nurturing to really get a firm grip on their faith, and to develop it fully. And various people have more or less time to devote to that edification, and some don't have faith that THEY can understand it even if they read the Bible, so ... they don't. But ultimately, there are NO "degrees" of Christianity. But I think you knew that, didn't you? You're far too learned to have missed that in your long life and great experiences.

[T_McD]

The issue is that leaves me back where I started. I am reliant on my own interpretation of Scripture as its the blind leading the blind.

I suppose I will continue to believe that I was endowed with a discerning and critical mind for a reason.

[T_McD]

In the meantime, please avoid at all costs leaping from the top of high buildings with wholly inadequate and untested set of mechanical wings. That sort of faith kills. Quite a few others do too but that's for another time.

I have the utmost respect for and faith in Gravity. It’s not just a good idea....





It’s the law!

[Leftyfixit]

God as the form of the Holy Spirit speaks to us constantly. The problem is we have to make an effort to hear Him. We know we stand between two principalities. The kingdom of God is here until Jesus returns and takes His saved or children home. Those who do not trust and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will find the truth but only after it is too late. They are children belonging to the devil for now until they stand before the judgement seat of God. Then each of us will receive our just fate based on who we did or did not believe in during our lives. God have mercy on each of us as we choose where We will send our souls for forever.

[Rizzo]

......... The kingdom of God is here until Jesus returns and takes His saved or children home. Those who do not trust and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will find the truth but only after it is too late. They are children belonging to the devil for now until they stand before the judgement seat of God. ..................

Wow.
So those who aren't Christian are children belonging to the devil, eh?
Uh-huh,... uh-huh.
Nonsense.

[dtknowles]

God as the form of the Holy Spirit speaks to us constantly. The problem is we have to make an effort to hear Him. We know we stand between two principalities. The kingdom of God is here until Jesus returns and takes His saved or children home. Those who do not trust and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will find the truth but only after it is too late. They are children belonging to the devil for now until they stand before the judgement seat of God. Then each of us will receive our just fate based on who we did or did not believe in during our lives. God have mercy on each of us as we choose where We will send our souls for forever.

We know what Christians believe. I think they are wrong about some things like I think you don't have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. That is just a religious precept promulgated by the Christian Church.

Tim

[1hole]

We know what Christians believe. I think they are wrong about some things like I think you don't have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. That is just a religious precept promulgated by the Christian Church.

Goodness Tim, when you're dead wrong your "I think" is deadly self delusion.

If you seriously think there is no requirement to "believe Jesus is God to be saved" then (1) from what, and (2) to what end, and (3) through whom, do you think anyone is "saved"?

You've been told the after life is binary, there are only two places to spend eternity. If you don't make the right choice before you die here then, by default, you've effectively chosen to follow the demons later. And none of your "thinking" will matter.

Of course you're absolutely right that simply "believing Jesus is God to be saved", of itself, won't buy you anything; even the demons "believe and shudder" (James 2:19).

You continue to think God's heaven is a right for those who have earned it even tho that isn't true. Truth is, the spiritual truths of salvation have been repeatedly, carefully and fully explained to you but you persist in ignoring it. So I ask, do you really want the truth ... or are you just hoping to get someone here to care what you think about God and his eternity?

[dtknowles]

Goodness Tim, when you're dead wrong your "I think" is deadly self delusion.

If you seriously think there is no requirement to "believe Jesus is God to be saved" then (1) from what, and (2) to what end, and (3) through whom, do you think anyone is "saved"?

You've been told the after life is binary, there are only two places to spend eternity. If you don't make the right choice before you die here then, by default, you've effectively chosen to follow the demons later. And none of your "thinking" will matter.

Of course you're absolutely right that simply "believing Jesus is God to be saved", of itself, won't buy you anything; even the demons "believe and shudder" (James 2:19).

You continue to think God's heaven is a right for those who have earned it even tho that isn't true. Truth is, the spiritual truths of salvation have been repeatedly, carefully and fully explained to you but you persist in ignoring it. So I ask, do you really want the truth ... or are you just hoping to get someone here to care what you think about God and his eternity?

I am spreading my beliefs so that more will be saved and more good will be done by the living. You have carefully and repeatedly explained Christian beliefs to me. I already understand them and reject them. You have told me that there are only two places where we can spend eternity but what would be the point of God punishing the dead. Really, what would that accomplish? God either grants you life after death or you are done and gone. You either convince God to keep you around after you die or you are gone.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

There are “Christians” who would burn the homes of homosexuals. So never accept that someone who professes to be a Christian will act as one under every situation.

There are “Christians” that molest children.

So UK Shootist, what label a person applies to themselves is not a measure of the label.

Fortunately for those who abuse the label Christian, I am not God. I could never forgiven many for the evils they have done to others. Maybe someday I will understand why God will forgive us just as easily fior minor sins as for the most heinous atrocities man is capable of....but I am not there yet.

Faith is not easy.

Assuming you have children, is there anything your child could do that you would not forgive?

[dverna]

Assuming you have children, is there anything your child could do that you would not forgive?

Of course. I could not forgive murder. My child would deserve to be executed. I could not do it, but I would accept such a sentence and outcome.

[Ickisrulz]

Of course. I could not forgive murder. My child would deserve to be executed. I could not do it, but I would accept such a sentence and outcome.

I think I asked the wrong question. Is there anything your child could do that would make you stop loving them?

[dtknowles]

If he's made life then he has an obligation to it. Just like any parent owes an obligation to a child.

If it was that difficult then why not make it just little bit more obvious? Anyone reading the Old Testament can be left in no doubt that God was not shy about revealing his existence at all. Why so shy for the last two thousand years?



I think the obligation has limits. You can't make you child succeed and if you try to hard you will ruin the child.

I think millennia ago God tried the being a bit more obvious and that did not really go well. For the last two thousand years God has been more subtle. Much has been written about God and new religions have formed in that time. God is still working in the world.

Tim

[dverna]

I think I asked the wrong question. Is there anything your child could do that would make you stop loving them?

That is a tougher question...and I think I know where you are going with it.

But if my child murdered a sibling...or if they were an adult and raped or murdered my grandchild, I am not sure I could love them any longer.

I understand that God will still love them...and that, like God, we are to love everyone...but I doubt I will ever reach that level of spiritual pureness.

[1hole]

I am spreading my beliefs so that more will be saved and more good will be done by the living. You have carefully and repeatedly explained Christian beliefs to me. I already understand them and reject them.

Well, I (and others) honestly wrote in response to your presumed honest questions. Now it seems you already knew what our responses would be and had rejected our testimony(s) to truth before we even answered. So, I ask, why did you even ask? Was/Is it perhaps your way of directing the discussion in ways that would provide you with a podium to announce your own "I thinks"? If so, that seems dishonest!

We have given you answers from God according to his written word, not our own ideas. Seems you think all of your "I thinks"
trumps what God thinks! Good luck with that but I doubt your thinking has any effect on him.

If you think your thinking is that important I think you should create your own heavens, earth and hell and set up your own rules.


You have told me that there are only two places where we can spend eternity but what would be the point of God punishing the dead. Really, what would that accomplish?



God either grants you life after death or you are done and gone. You either convince God to keep you around after you die or you are gone.

Again, I'll say it one last time; God grants each of us an immortal spirit at conception. Our mortal bodies will die but our spirits will live eternally. At the last resurrection, just before the Great White Throne judgements, the bodies of those who rejected Jesus' offer and, by that act (John 3:18), are NOT going to heaven, will also be physically resurrected and 'live' eternally in some part of hell.

In spite of your expressed hope of talking God into letting you live eternally with Him in his heaven it will then be too late. In other words, God himself IS NOT who will determine if you go to hell, YOU WILL, all by yourself.

You know the truth but reject it so he will simply allow YOU to eternally live WHERE YOU CHOOSE! Choose wisely.

It's not what you or I think about it that matters but what He says; it's his heaven and Jesus died on a cross to buy our ticket to heaven so that seems fair to me. We know you know the truth so think about it. And I mean get off the self agrandizing "I think" emotions and REALLY think!

[dtknowles]

Well, I (and others) honestly wrote in response to your presumed honest questions. Now it seems you already knew what our responses would be and had rejected our testimony(s) to truth before we even answered. So, I ask, why did you even ask? Was/Is it perhaps your way of directing the discussion in ways that would provide you with a podium to announce your own "I thinks"? If so, that seems dishonest!

We have given you answers from God according to his written word, not our own ideas. Seems you think all of your "I thinks"
trumps what God thinks! Good luck with that but I doubt your thinking has any effect on him.

If you think your thinking is that important I think you should create your own heavens, earth and hell and set up your own rules.






Again, I'll say it one last time; God grants each of us an immortal spirit at conception. Our mortal bodies will die but our spirits will live eternally. At the last resurrection, just before the Great White Throne judgements, the bodies of those who rejected Jesus' offer and, by that act (John 3:18), are NOT going to heaven, will also be physically resurrected and 'live' eternally in some part of hell.

In spite of your expressed hope of talking God into letting you live eternally with Him in his heaven it will then be too late. In other words, God himself IS NOT who will determine if you go to hell, YOU WILL, all by yourself.

You know the truth but reject it so he will simply allow YOU to eternally live WHERE YOU CHOOSE! Choose wisely.

It's not what you or I think about it that matters but what He says; it's his heaven and Jesus died on a cross to buy our ticket to heaven so that seems fair to me. We know you know the truth so think about it. And I mean get off the self agrandizing "I think" emotions and REALLY think!

You told me what the bible says. I know the truth because God tells me the truth. He explained to me about the bible. I understand the bible. I give the forum a chance to go beyond the bible but some here can and some here can't. You might think I am listening to the Devil. The Devil talks to me too but I can tell the difference between God and the Devil. It is not hard.

God did not tell me Christians are bad or wrong. God told be true Christians will have a good chance to be saved. Good Christians do good and make the world a better place. God told me that doing good and making the world a better place is what is most important, Jesus is just a messenger and the son of God just like the rest of us.

Tim

[1hole]

You told me what the bible says. I know the truth because God tells me the truth. He explained to me about the bible. I understand the bible.

I give the forum a chance to go beyond the bible but some here can and some here can't. You might think I am listening to the Devil."

God told (m)e true Christians will have a good chance to be saved.

God told me that doing good and making the world a better place is what is most important, Jesus is just a messenger and the son of God just like the rest of us.

I'm stunned and suddenly very sad; your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, your earned "salvation" is not the salvation of the Bible. In fact, you're in direct contradiction to the Bible on both counts. But your claim is not unique.

The history of cults is replete with people who said/believed they had direct conversations with God for how to make Christianity better. Joe Smith (Mormons), Ellen White (7th Adventists), Mary Eddy (Christian Science), Charles Russel (Jehovah Witness), Jim Jones, David Koresh all quickly come to mind. Even Paul had to deal with them.

You do not understand God, you do not understand the Bible and you are not simply confused. Get help.

[dtknowles]

I'm stunned and suddenly very sad; your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, your earned "salvation" is not the salvation of the Bible. In fact, you're in direct contradiction to the Bible on both counts. But your claim is not unique.

The history of cults is replete with people who said/believed they had direct conversations with God for how to make Christianity better. Joe Smith (Mormons), Ellen White (7th Adventists), Mary Eddy (Christian Science), Charles Russel (Jehovah Witness), Jim Jones, David Koresh all quickly come to mind. Even Paul had to deal with them.

You do not understand God, you do not understand the Bible and you are not simply confused. Get help.

You say because I deny some of the Bible I am lost. I just as easily say that because you believe all of the Bible you are lost. Maybe you are the one who should seek help. I am always seeking help.

Tim

[1hole]

You say because I deny some of the Bible I am lost. I just as easily say that because you believe all of the Bible you are lost. Maybe you are the one who should seek help. I am always seeking help.

Tim

Timmy, I'll try to help but all I'll say here is from scripture and will make it easy for you to find. (2 Tim 3:16)

First, you're putting words in my mouth; I never said a thing about you being lost and you know it. Not only is that dishonest, it's not sanitary. (Prov 19:9)

You claimed that God speaks directly to you and has privately given you the straight info about how people can be saved other than by faith in Lord Jesus, BUT ..... (Eph 2:8-10)

I have to ask, has God again spoken to you this week to give you more personal new revelations on how Jesus is/was "just another man" and how we earn God's salvation by our good deeds? (Acts 4:7-12)

I'll sadly admit that you have a lot of company with your religious legalism; cult founders all say, like you, that "God's salvation" is really by good works, not just His Bible's way. (Gal 2:16)

I strongly disagree with your doctrines but who am I; I only read His Bible and accept what He says in it. I must do that because (unlike what you claim) He never speaks privately with me. (2 Pet 1:21-23)


* NOTE: You don't need a Bible to look up the cited verses, just type them in your search line and push ENTER.

[AK Caster]

At this point in time, there are likely less than 100 people on earth and yet Cain proceeds to murder his brother.
I wonder just how arrogant Cain must have been. Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today. He saw and spoke to God and rejected God's way.

What year(s) are you referring to? Why do you refer to atheists as arrogant? I rarely ever hear an atheist trying to spread the word they do not believe in God unless they are provoked into answering what their beliefs are.

[dtknowles]

The history of cults is replete with people who said/believed they had direct conversations with God for how to make Christianity better. Joe Smith (Mormons), Ellen White (7th Adventists), Mary Eddy (Christian Science), Charles Russel (Jehovah Witness).



I wonder why the LDS, 7th Adventists, Christian Scientists), Jehovah Witness don't call you on your religious discrimination but maybe they are used to people like you.

[mpescatori]

This thread started over Cain and Abel, a story which I find interesting on a number of accounts:
- Cain was the first born, and tilled the fields (farmer)
- Abel was the second born, and was a sheperd; he raised sheep (not cattle) and we all know of the struggle of sheperds in the West against cattle ranchers; this is because "where sheep pass, grass grows no more" because sheep pull the grass out to the roots.
Put these two together, and you see the symbolic competition between farmers and sheperds.

Furthermore, God instructed how he wanted his sacrifice: the animal's liver, the kidneys, and the fat thereof; he was fond of their smell and their smoke on the fire.
On the other hand God couldn't care less for grain or fruits.
So for God to rebuke Cain after not showing gratitude is difficult to understand; Cain is the first born, the watcher of the Lands, the tiller of the ground as was his father Adam, why should he be mortified?
Cain was behaving properly, but his sacrifice, the toil of his work was refused…?
Think about it.

[mpescatori]

But then, I may have insight on this:


The Untold Story of Cain and Abel
By Jeff A. Benner
https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/studies-interpretation/untold-story-of-cain-and-abel.htm

We have all heard the story of Cain and Abel. Two brothers bring their sacrifices to God; Abel's sacrifice is accepted, but Cain's sacrifice is not. Out of jealousy, Cain take's his brother out into the field and kills him. Because of Cain's sin, he is branded with a mark and sent away. However, if we carefully study the text, we find that there is much, much more, to this story.

Their Names
Let's begin with their names. The names Cain and Abel come from the Greek Septuagint, a 2,000 year old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, where their names are written as "Kain" and "Abel." These names are the Greek transliterations of the Hebrew. In Hebrew, Cain is קין (qayin) and Abel is הבל (havel).
The word קין (qayin, from the root QN) means to acquire or possess something which is why Eve (chavah in Hebrew) said "I have gotten/acquired (qanah, also from the root QN) a man" (Gen 4:1). The word הבל (havel) means to be empty, often translated as vain or vanity in the sense of being empty of substance.
The Hebrew word for "name" is shem and literally means breath or character. In Hebrew thought, ones name is reflective of one's character and the Hebraic meanings of the names of "Cain and Abel" are windows into their characters. Cain is a possessor, one who has substance while Abel is empty of substance.
This may seem odd to us, because we have always assumed that Abel was the good guy and Cain the bad, but this is an oversimplification of the facts, as according to their names, a reflection of their character, Cain is what we would call "a man of character," but Abel is "vain."

Their Births
It is a well-known fact that Jacob and Esau were twins, but what is not commonly known is that Cain and Abel were also twins. In the normal Hebraic accounting of multiple births the conception then birth of each child is mentioned such as we can see in Genesis 29:32-33 where it states that Leah conceived and bore a son, and then she conceived again and bore a son. Note that there are two conceptions and two births. But notice how it is worded in Genesis 4:1-2.
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain; And again, she bore his brother Abel. (RSV)
Notice that there is only one conception, but two births. The Hebrew word for "again" is asaph, meaning to add something, in this case the birthing of Abel was added to the birthing of Cain. Cain and Abel were twins.

Their professions
According to the Biblical text, Abel was a shepherd. The KJV uses the word "keeper," but the Hebrew word ro'eh means shepherd. Cain is a "tiller of the ground." The Hebrew word translated as "tiller" is o'ved, which literally means a "servant." The word o'ved, is the participle form of the verb avad and the verb avad is found in Genesis 3:23 where it states that when Adam was expelled from the garden he was sent to "till" (avad) the ground. Therefore, Cain, who is the older of the twins, takes on the profession of his father, a very common occurrence in the Hebrew culture. I should note that while Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel are not Hebrews by definition, they are the forefathers of the Hebrew people.

Their sacrifices
When the two boys brought their sacrifices to God, Cain, the farmer, brought fruit from the ground he worked and Abel, the shepherd, brought sheep from his flock. We are then told that God had respect for Abel's sacrifice, but not for Cain's, but we are not told why Cain's sacrifice was not respected.
Something of interest that can be gleaned from this story is that we often assume the first commands by God were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai, but this is evidently not the case, God gave his commands, or at least some of them, to Adam and Eve and their children and it is apparent from the narrative that Abel obeyed those commands, but Cain did not.
Because God did not respect Cain's sacrifice Cain was angry and sad. Then God gives him some instructions. The first of these is; " If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" God is telling him that he can overcome this; all he has to do in the future is bring the correct sacrifice, and all will be well. Then God says, " and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." In other words, if you continue to bring me the wrong sacrifices, you will sin. Lastly God says, " And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." It is assumed by most that the "his" and "him" in this verse is "sin," however, this is impossible.
It is important to understand that in Hebrew all nouns are either masculine or feminine. For instance, the earth is feminine, but the sky (heaven) is masculine and the word for fish is feminine, but the word for bird is masculine. The Hebrew word for sin is hhatah, which is a feminine noun. If the "his" and "him," which by the way are the correct gender for the pronouns in the Hebrew text, were referring to "sin," then the correct pronouns would have been "hers" and "her." We can then conclude that the "his" and "him" are referring to something or someone other than sin.

Their Relationship
Let's take a closer look at that the last part of what God told Cain. Here is a literal rendering of this passage from the Hebrew; "and toward you is his desire but you will rule over him." Now, let's go back to the previous chapter (Genesis 3:16) where God is speaking to Eve about her relationship with Adam; "and toward your husband is your desire, but he will rule over you." Did you notice that these two passages, aside from the gender of the pronouns and to whom the passages are referring too, are identical?
In the passage about Adam and Eve, Eve is to follow her husband and her husband is to rule over her. In the passage about Cain and Abel, "he" is to follow Cain and Cain is to rule over "him." So who is the "he" and "him?" It has to be Abel. Remember that Cain was born first and is therefore, according to Hebrew tradition, the leader. But apparently, Abel is attempting to take over the leadership, possibly because he felt superior to Cain as his sacrifice was accepted by God. Also, don't forget that Cain's character was one of substance and Abel's was one of vanity.

The Murder
The King James Version translates Genesis 4:8 as follows.
And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
This is a pretty straight-forward passage, but it has been altered in order for it to make sense. It is not uncommon for the translators to "fix" the text so that it can be understood by the reader easily. In my opinion they do a disservice to the reader by hiding these problems. I am of the opinion that the translator should remain true to the Hebrew text and then footnote their opinions. The very first part of that verse actually reads, from the Hebrew, "And Cain said to his brother."
What did Cain say to his brother? We don't know, that is missing from the text. The King James translators fixed this by changing the word from "said" to "talked." This may sound trivial, but you must understand that every time the Hebrew uses vai'yomer (and said) the conversation follows, but not here. At some point when the scroll was being copied, a copier accidently skipped over what was said by Cain.

Here is this verse from Young's Literal Translation.
And Cain saith unto Abel his brother, {'Let us go into the field;'} and it cometh to pass in their being in the field, that Cain riseth up against Abel his brother, and slayeth him.
Young's remains true to the Hebrew, but adds, "Let us go into the field." Where did Young's get this?
From the Greek Septuagint, which reads as follows.
And Cain said to Abel his brother, Let us go out into the plain; and it came to pass that when they were in the plain Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Where did the Septuagint get the "Let us go out into the plain?" We don't know. Either they were translating from a Hebrew scroll that includes the conversation, or they "fixed" the text by adding the sentence in order for the passage to make sense.

The reason that I bring up this problem in the text is so that you will recognize that there is a problem in the text and we do not know with certainty all of the facts in this murder. But in any case, Cain does murder his brother and he is punished for it, which by the way, is more evidence that God gave his commands to Adam and Eve, long before he gave them to Moses, here specifically the commandment, "you shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13).

The punishment
The first punishment for Cain is that he is will no longer be able to work the ground.
And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength; (RSV, Genesis 4:11-12a)

The second punishment is banishment.
you shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth. (RSV, Genesis 4:12b)

Cain is distressed by this punishment and says to God, according to the translations;
My punishment is greater than I can bear (RSV, Genesis 4:13).
This implies that there is no remorse in Cain and he is more worried about his punishment than the evil act he did to his brother.
However, the Hebrew word translated as punishment is avon, which means "iniquity" or "guilt."
With this understanding, he is actually saying, "My guilt is greater than I can bear."
With this translation we see great remorse. Cain then continues to say,
Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me. (RSV, Genesis 4:14)

Grace and Mercy
It is often taught that the Old Testament taught Law and the NT taught Grace. However we find throughout the Old Testament instances where God shows Grace. The story of Noah, the exodus of the Israelites and many others are stories of grace and this story is no different as God grants mercy, grace and hope to Cain.
Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him. (RSV, Genesis 4:15)

God evidently believed that Cain's murder did not deserve death, either by his or anyone else's hand and this may be a sign that there is more to this murder story than we are told. Don't forget that the conversation between Cain and Abel is not known for sure and it is also possible that there are elements of this story that have not been passed down to us.
What is the mark that God placed on Cain? We of course cannot know with any certainty, but there are some clues. The Hebrew word translated as "mark" is the word 'ot, which is used in the Biblical text for a "sign." This word is also used in non-Biblical texts for a "letter," as in a letter of the alphabet.

And the LORD said to him, "Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it." (RSV, Ezekiel 9:4)

In the above passage, the Hebrew word for the "mark" is tav, which is last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The above passage would be better translated as, "and put a 'tav' upon the foreheads." In the Ancient Hebrew alphabet, the letter tav was written as a picture of two crossed sticks, a cross if you will, and is a sign of a covenant.
It is possible that the "mark" God placed on Cain was the letter tav and may also be a sign that God was in covenant relationship with Cain.

Conclusion
As I mentioned at the beginning of this article, if we carefully examine the text more closely we will find that there is much more to the story of Cain and Abel then most of us have been taught. I don't have all of the answers; in fact, as I study the Biblical text carefully, I will usually wind up with more questions than I do answers. But this is what Bible study is all about. It is not about getting all the answers, it is about the search. It is not about the destination, it is about the journey.

[Rizzo]

[QUOTE=mpescatori;
We have all heard the story of Cain and Abel. Two brothers bring their sacrifices to God; Abel's sacrifice is accepted, but Cain's sacrifice is not. Out of jealousy, Cain take's his brother out into the field and kills him. Because of Cain's sin, he is branded with a mark and sent away. However, if we carefully study the text, we find that there is much, much more, to this story. [/QUOTE]

So, Adam and Eve had two children. They were Cain and Abel.

Genesis 4:16 - So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Genesis 4:17 - Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.

If the only people around at that time were Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel, where did the people of Nod come from?
The Bible does not address this and just adds more confusion to the Truth Seeker reading the Bible.

[a danl]

Deep. Very deep.

"do you not know that you will judge the angels?" that is the fallen angels