Automating bullet sizer?

[Cue]

I have a Bullet sizer that I made from a Lee press and although it works great with a bulletfeeder on it, My arm gets tired from pulling the handle so much :) Actually it sizes on the upstroke so its not as easy as my star sizer is which does it on the pull stroke. I want to automate it and have been looking at electric motors and gearboxes but am not sure how much force is required to size a bullet other than what I can "feel" by pulling the handle. Im not sure I like the air cylinders as they dont seem as smooth running as a geared motor is. It will more than likely be attached directly to the top of the ram, not on the handle.

here is a short vid of the sizer I made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnugW7zMbFs


I was looking at this gearbox
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/power_transmission_(mechanical)/general_purpose_aluminum_worm_gearboxes/wga-30m-030-h1

And this motor
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/motors/ac_motors_-_general_purpose/general_purpose/mtr2-p33-1ab18

But the specs on the gearbox say it has 177lb-in of force, which is only about 15 foot pounds? Doesn't seem like that would be enough force?


Please post up pictures of your homemade sizers if you have any. [smilie=s: And any recommendations?

[Cue]

Nobody has automated their sizer??

[No_1]

Talk with Hatch from ---> Hatch Automation (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?277-HATCH-Automation) <---. I believe his is set up uses pneumatics controlled by a PLC.

[Cue]

Thanks, I have, that is for the master caster though and not a sizing machine although some stuff could be adapted. I am more interested in electric geared motor setups.

[MT Chambers]

I've seen many Stars that were automated, prolly the only unit worth doing it to, as it is smooth, precise and lubes at the same time.

[Cue]

I forgot to mention I am not lubing, I use Hitek or Powdercoated bullets so only need it to size. I have a star sizer and my machine I built which is the one I want to automate as it is stronger than the Star is.

[Tazza]

The one i built from "junk"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYMW5v0P5SY

The home made nose down collator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKwJpsWs_bw

When i cast them right, i don't need much force to size when coated in hi-tek. The only times i have had issues was when i cast a bunch and had a dag in the mould that held it slightly open, it made them a few thou larger and it really wasn't happy with me.

[Cue]

I saw your video, that is what I want to do. What is the motor and gearbox you used? I did order a air cylinder to play with though as it seems easier, even though Id rather do a geared motor.

[Tazza]

For sizing, i agree, go geared motor, it will not *spring* like an air cylinder will.

Motor i'm using: http://i67.tinypic.com/5aruid.jpg

gearbox: http://i66.tinypic.com/2zi7l29.jpg

Hopefully those links will work....

28:1 reduction box and a 1350 rpm 3 phase motor so i can control the speed with a VFD

It did take a fair bit of messing around, but i got there in the end, if i can cobble it together, anyone can.

[Cue]

Unfortunately They cant be bought in the US. Finding a gearbox with a motor that mates to it is the difficult part.

[dimaprok]

Take a look at your local scrap yard, I found a nice geared motor and picked it up just because I know these things are so expensive and I offered like 5-10 bucks and they took it as it goes to metal scrap otherwise. Now the question is - how much do you shoot that you need automated sizer? The one you made is very slick and speeds up things a lot by not needing to feed each bullet. Regarding air cylinder you can slow down or speed up with a bleeding valve. There is a guy on this forum who made automated sizer using air cylinder. I think there are pros and cons to both methods. With motor it's expensive and might overheat plus you need to fabricate more parts. With Air the cylinders are cheap on eBay but you probably need large tank compressor which can be useful for other things. You would also might need a timed relay. I am working on similar project for punching gas checks and similarly been looking at both options but air cylinder and valve I got was cheap off eBay.

[Tazza]

That brand may be hard to get in the USA, but the ones you listed from automation direct seemed like they should work too. I'd have assumed that all motors and gear boxes these days conform to an ISO standard, so they *should* be fairly easy to match motor and gear box together.

That is good advise, scrap yards may be a good option. They will only get scrap value, so you could pick one up for next to nothing.

[Cue]

Unfortunately there is no such scrapyard around here that I know of that would sell something like that, only automotive junkyards where you have to tell them the exact part you need. The air cylinder arrived today with a valve to slow it down as well as a spring loaded switch, so ill weld something up Thursday and see how it works. Compressor is not an issue. I do have a Electric motor combo I found im working on so may try that as well.
Its not about needing it for the amount I shoot, I like fabricating stuff and making things so no reason not to automate it ;)

[Tazza]

I'm like that too, i like to tinker, generally the projects i come up with do work eventually, not always the first try, but i get there.

My automated master caster evolved, it started off one way, then you find the flaws and repair them to make it more reliable, you need to start somewhere and go from there if it doesn't work as well as you had hoped.

[dimaprok]

Unfortunately there is no such scrapyard around here that I know of that would sell something like that, only automotive junkyards where you have to tell them the exact part you need. The air cylinder arrived today with a valve to slow it down as well as a spring loaded switch, so ill weld something up Thursday and see how it works. Compressor is not an issue. I do have a Electric motor combo I found im working on so may try that as well.
Its not about needing it for the amount I shoot, I like fabricating stuff and making things so no reason not to automate it ;)

Ahhh that's a very good reason. I am with you 100% on that. You make something and you learn and it's valuable. Next time some project comes around and you're already familiar what needs to be done. My scrap yard is where people and business bring their metal scraps to recycle, I discovered when I was looking for some aluminum plates. Online it would cost many times more and being that we have Boeing nearby I see nice scraps there, like there was a bunch of aluminum blocks and plates. One time I came and found big container full of Cobalt drill bits, the ones made in USA, good stuff, the owner wanted 5 bucks for coffee can full of them. I picked up a bunch that were sharp and looked like haven't been used. now I have a large supply of drill bits, unfortunately they don't wary much in size but it's ok, I do a lot of drilling on the lathe and they help out tremendously. One time I picked up 35lb of HSS cutting tools for $35 from 1" to 3/16" , 90% were ground in to shape already with some intricate shapes. Whoever ground them must have had very nice machine to do it. A lot of them had carbide brazed bits. Another time I found a box of fully carbide milling ends, good USA brand, offered a guy $20 for 11 of them that I picked out without any damage. They are so useful, like 3/8" and 1/2".

[Tazza]

Ahhh that's a very good reason. I am with you 100% on that. You make something and you learn and it's valuable. Next time some project comes around and you're already familiar what needs to be done. My scrap yard is where people and business bring their metal scraps to recycle, I discovered when I was looking for some aluminum plates. Online it would cost many times more and being that we have Boeing nearby I see nice scraps there, like there was a bunch of aluminum blocks and plates. One time I came and found big container full of Cobalt drill bits, the ones made in USA, good stuff, the owner wanted 5 bucks for coffee can full of them. I picked up a bunch that were sharp and looked like haven't been used. now I have a large supply of drill bits, unfortunately they don't wary much in size but it's ok, I do a lot of drilling on the lathe and they help out tremendously. One time I picked up 35lb of HSS cutting tools from 1" to 3/16" , 90% were ground in to shape already with some intricate shapes. Whoever ground them must have had very nice machine to do it. A lot of them had carbide brazed bits. Another time I found a box of fully carbide milling ends, good USA brand, offered a guy $20 for 11 of them that I picked out without any damage. They are so useful, like 3/8" and 1/2".

Wish i got deals like that, you can never have too many drill bits or cutting tools. I scored a bucket full of them for $100 years ago, i felt it was a good deal, just not as good as yours.

[Cue]

So I cobbled it together today with the air cylinder and made a short video. All the parts for the air cylinder upgrade are removable in case I want to try the Electric motor below. Seems to work OK, my relay wouldnt go any faster though so I ordered a new one from Amazon so I can speed it up a tiny bit. Need to hook up my bulletfeeder to it as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQLqJRw-C_A&feature=youtu.be


This is the motor I got on Ebay and may give that a try if I get tired of the air.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SITI-gear-motor-3-phase-25-1-ratio-FC-562-4-Made-in-Italy/113278845056?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[Tazza]

Nice job, looks like it works pretty well as is, slow and steady isn't a bad thing. Mine flat out will do about 2,700 per hour, but when something catches, it stops hard and has broken 2 ball joints so far :(

Love the green colour of the projectiles, i assume powder coat?

Looking forward to seeing how you do if you do put a motor on to test it.

[Cue]

Yea they are powdercoated 230g .45. Thats one thing with the air Cylinder, if it jams it doesnt seem to break anything as I jammed it up a few times on purpose.

[Tazza]

Sweet, they do look awesome.

As mine is run with a VFD, it does halt when it detects a current spike from being stalled, but with how i have my feeder, it seems to on occasion, catch either dropping a projectile in the sizing die, or catches when dropping from my feeding tube. Thankfully it is pretty reliable, but it still does happen.

With your setup, air won't just keep trying to pull it apart.

[Ausglock]

This mine.
Has sized over 100,000 hitek coated bullets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co6h-iTHjP0

[Cue]

Nice, what are you using for the ram a Lee press?


.

This mine.
Has sized over 100,000 hitek coated bullets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co6h-iTHjP0

[RED BEAR]

I just wish i had the machinery to make things like this. I must say both look really nice and appear to work great. Good job.

[Ausglock]

Nice, what are you using for the ram a Lee press?


.

Yep. A cheap Lee C press. Is lasting surprisingly well, considering it is Steel ram sliding on Alloy.

[igolfat8]

I am interested in automating my Lee sizing press too.
What (low cost) VFD’s are you guys using?
Do you need three phase power to power the VFD or does the VFD convert single phase input to three phase output?
What horsepower motor do you need?
Can I use a single phase motor with a VFD?
Is there anyone selling kits?
I thought there was a guy on hear a few years ago selling kits? I thought his username was monster something or dragon something?
I’ve already been down the air powered rabbit hole so now I want to try electric motor / gear reduction power.

[Cue]

I just bought a cheap VFD off Ebay, I have used them before on other projects and they worked fine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-0-75KW-1HP-220V-5A-FOR-CNC/401623067234?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

It takes single phase and converts it to 3 phase to run the 3phase motor.

[Tazza]

The VFDs i have used were not cheap brands, so i can't tell you how the cheapies perform. I one is ABB, i think the other is eaton.

Single phase in, three phase out, that's the beauty of them. The slow ramp up and down speeds are handy, over current limits too.

I'm using a 1/4 hp motor i think.

[mozee]

Is there anyone selling kits to automate the Star resizer? I had a chat to Hatch already. He is helping out with the master caster automation but I am keen to get the resizer automated as well.

[MT Chambers]

There are many clips on the computer of folks that have automated their STAR, the machine in the above clip doesn't lube so kinda a waste for me.

[Ausglock]

Mine is for Hitek Coated bullets, Wax/grease lube is a thing of the past for me.

[mozee]

There are many clips on the computer of folks that have automated their STAR, the machine in the above clip doesn't lube so kinda a waste for me.

I have seen most of videos, was hoping I didnt need to reinvent the wheel and just purchase the kit. Besides, I am dont have access to all the cool toys to make the fabricated parts on :-)

[mozee]

Mine is for Hitek Coated bullets, Wax/grease lube is a thing of the past for me.

same here, will be used for Hi-tek only. BTW, love your setup AusGlock

[jmorris]

I built this one that’s pneumatic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eANEMBS_V_0

[jmorris]

And this one that uses a gear motor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01zbImsdkbg

[mozee]

Looks like some machines are in a choreographed dancing show. I see a lot going on. Care to help me build one? Please? [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ausglock]

Mozee... It is handy to have a machine shop in your back yard. But you can build mine with basic handtools and a cheap stick welder.
Just buy a Mr. Bullet feeder collator to feed the Star bullet feeder that takes the bullets to the ram.

[jmorris]

Looks like some machines are in a choreographed dancing show. I see a lot going on. Care to help me build one? Please? [emoji4]



There is a lot going on when you have them all going.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8tWaN5PrTY

I can’t do the work for you but can answer any questions you have or come up with.

If you need help with the actual building part you might just buy one of Gremlin460’s machines and automate it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?325392-AS-2-SIZER-(Several-members-asked-me-to-repost-this-So-here-it-is-)

[mozee]

There is a lot going on when you have them all going.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8tWaN5PrTY

I can’t do the work for you but can answer any questions you have or come up with.

If you need help with the actual building part you might just buy one of Gremlin460’s machines and automate it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?325392-AS-2-SIZER-(Several-members-asked-me-to-repost-this-So-here-it-is-)

Thanks, I’m sorted with a bullet feeder. I’ve built one making use of the 3d files on thingiverse and managed to 3d print it. Including the nose down adaptor.

My challenge comes to the motorizations of the action. Either mechanical or air. I’ve searched but can’t find much in measurements of drive rod etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[6bg6ga]

This is what I'm going to use.

245896[ATTACH=CONFIG]245897

When I get the time I will machine the parts to attach the gear reduction motor to my Star sizer with bullet feeder.

[Ausglock]

Mozee.
Boston Gear, Dayton, SEW, Motovario.
Any of these companies can supply a 1/4 HP motor and worm drive gearbox.

I use Motovario 1/4HP 1phase motor with Motovario gearbox 20:1 ratio. The motor is 1440 RPM. this gives 1 bullet sized per second on my sizer.

[jmorris]

My challenge comes to the motorizations of the action. Either mechanical or air. I’ve searched but can’t find much in measurements of drive rod etc.


Ok, that’s the easy part, air just has to move the ram above the unsized bullet and shove it down far enough to clear the die or at least far enough it won’t deform it or another bullet that finishes pushing it through.

If you are using the Lee, upside down rig, I can give you numbers. It’s actually pretty easy as the throw at the press linkage is infinitely adjustable, the diameter needs to be the same as the factory handle obviously.

[6bg6ga]

Mine is a Bodine motor with speed control box. The motor is rated at 42 RPM at full speed. I figured it would have the torque needed to run the sizer with the speed that I could keep up with keeping the tube full for the feeder. Probably not exactly the fastest but the price was right. I picked 2) motors and speed controllers at different times on ebay for a song and a dance. The first motor I purchased had a bearing problem so I contacted the seller and received a free replacement motor. Once I had the replacement motor I disassembled the noisy motor and went on the quest to find the correct bearing ( roller bearings). I found out there were different OD's and the motor took a special size so I finally found what I needed and ordered it. I replaced both bearings and now have a quiet motor.

The speed controllers were a learning curve in that I had to find the schematic in order to repair them. An easy fix with the replacement of a sand resistor and the adjustment of the torque and current adjustment controls. In all in just 1) motor and speed control I have the equivalent of $1100 worth for roughly $40

[mozee]

Mozee.
Boston Gear, Dayton, SEW, Motovario.
Any of these companies can supply a 1/4 HP motor and worm drive gearbox.

I use Motovario 1/4HP 1phase motor with Motovario gearbox 20:1 ratio. The motor is 1440 RPM. this gives 1 bullet sized per second on my sizer.

Thanks AusGlock, I will see what I can find here. A quick google search has found some places that resells them. Not sure on pricing just yet.

[mozee]

Ok, that’s the easy part, air just has to move the ram above the unsized bullet and shove it down far enough to clear the die or at least far enough it won’t deform it or another bullet that finishes pushing it through.

If you are using the Lee, upside down rig, I can give you numbers. It’s actually pretty easy as the throw at the press linkage is infinitely adjustable, the diameter needs to be the same as the factory handle obviously.



I have a star resizer, Its going to be a big learning curve, but will see how I fair. Hope everyone doesnt get bored with my questions :-)

[Tazza]

I have a star resizer, Its going to be a big learning curve, but will see how I fair. Hope everyone doesnt get bored with my questions :-)

We all started somewhere, that's how we learn, questions.

Everyone does their own style of automation, when working, none are wrong, they are just different.

[Ausglock]

Mozee.
Ask away, Mate.
Always glad to help.

[Cue]

I found a new motor and gearbox on Ebay that was within the specs of the others I have seen here and have now converted it to Electric. It is much better than that air cylinder and faster as well, now I just need to find a project for the air cylinder, maybe a can crusher? I dont drink anything in cans though, oh well.

Still needs a few tweaks and then hook my Bulletfeeder up to it, but it runs. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDk1JUBeNK0

[Ausglock]

Good job... Well done..

[Cue]

Thanks! and thanks again for the motor/gearbox info.

[Gatch]

That's prerty damn sweet. I might end up building something similar myself.

[Tazza]

Awesome job, you'll have to let us know how it goes when you give it a bit more work. The issue i see that you may have over time is the pivot points from the motor to the ram is wear. I installed bearings at my pivot points to prevent wear.

I still need to fine tune mine, as it does jam up from time to time at the slider, either from the tube "magazine" or dropping from the slider into the sizing die. I think the hole in the slider might be a little too snug, but if i open it too much, i run the risk of the projectiles leaning over and not dropping correctly, causing jams again, so it might be a fine line to get it right.

My connections from the ram rod to my slider are fixed, without springs to absorb the energy if something does catch. When it catches, it stalls the motor and the VFD shuts down. Very handy addition to have is the current sense, it detects the motor stalled ad stops instead of trying to keep pushing and burning out. I hope to fix this stalling "issue" for the slider part by installing some sort of break away linkage like i saw on another commercial machine on youtube.

[igolfat8]

Cue,
Can you share the nameplate info from the motor and gearbox?

[Cue]

Here are pictures of the motor and gearbox plate.

The linkage has a Heim joint on each end which has a sort of bearing in it, not ball bearing though. It will probably last me a long time, if they wear out I can just replace them since they were only $7 on Amazon or add a bearing like you did. The VFD does have over current protection and does shut down if it jams as well, think they all have that? My tube magazine is vinyl and if a bullet gets in upside down it has some give to it so that helps, thats about the only time I had a jam while running it manually. I have about 10k ran threw the machine before automating it.
Do you have the link to the youtube video showing the break away linkage?

[Tazza]

I thought over current would be in the VFDs, but i guess not everyone sets the correct value for it to be effective?

I looked around for the sizer, but can't find it. It was a different style that didn't use a slider as such, it sort of brought it in on an arc i thought, not much movement, but it seemed to work well

Th linkage was kinda like O ) ( O

The O looked like a ball from a bearing, the ) ( was a piece of steel with divots in t to accept the round parts of the balls to hold it in place but allow it to disengage if something stuck

sorry i can't be more help with finding the video

[Ausglock]

Tazza... The one you are thinking of was the Hardline sizer.
The sizer made by Northern Valley is similar.

[Tazza]

Ausglock - I did see that one in my searches for videos last night, it's a good way of doing it to prevent jam ups, as the slider is done with air and not a direct link, but the one i remember had a break away style linkage. I can't seem to find pictures of a commercial linkage like that though.

Do you have issues of jams at all? or is it pretty reliable?

[Ramjet-SS]

Try Surpluscenter.com

[Ausglock]

Mine very rarely jams. Only if a bodgey pill slips through the feeder. But then the motor stalls out and doesn't do any damage.

My new one I intend to build will have electric solenoid powered feeder. No air or mechanical linkages.

[Tazza]

That is what happens to mine too, i think i need to open the holes for the slider a bit more to help with reliability, but i don't want to go too large and cause issues.

Electric sounds like a good idea, i was thinking of altering mine to run off air, but i really don't need to have to hook up another power source (air) to it. What sort of solenoid do you have in mind? the ones i am thinking of don't have a long enough throw..... I'd use a SSR to run it too, hopefully less power spikes as i thought they can only shut off on the zero crossing on the sine wave, so less interference (in theory).

Looking forward to hearing how it goes when you get to it

[Ausglock]

Solenoid is a 240 Volt, 20mm throw, 2.5Kg unit.
Hook it up the a horizontal "L" lever to feed the sizer die.
Going to use Lathesmiths Short Magma type of die. Far better than the Lee dies.
But.. I have a 1 1/2" thick steel plate and a 7/8x14 tap to thread the hole for a Lee die, just incase..

[Tazza]

Using an L plate was what i had in my head to give more travel, will be an interesting project. The only solenoids i managed to get my hands on were from old washing machines, not sure on the pullig power or effective throw they have though. I used one on my master caster, but the EMF it produced, messed with my controller.

I didn't have a tap when i made mine, i was lucky enough that the plate i needed threading fitted into my lathe, so i cut it that way, then i knew it was perfectly straight too. I have only ever run Lee sizing dies, i did make a few extras out of 4140 to size some .40s, they did the job.

[Cue]

So finally got the bugs worked out and my Bulletfeeder hooked up. Man this is going to be so nice not having to pull the handle anymore. Amazing how lazy we get huh, when I first built the sizer and could just sit there and pull the handle on it I was amazed, now I got even lazier and didn't want to pull the handle anymore so I automated it LOL, guess the next step in laziness would be to just buy bullets but thats not going to happen.:wink:

I turned down the current sensing setting in the VFD for the overload setting so if it jams it shuts down the motor pretty quickly and I even added a stop button to hold in my hand while its running just like my Ammobot, if I see something wrong I can stop it instantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ruiox5M07Qw

[Tazza]

Great job, looks like it's running really well. I spent ages sizing my hand, after i built mine, i can never go back, it took a long time to make and get running right, but now i can't go back.

I have a few plans of modifications to do to get it running better, they will happen when i get a few hours free.

[Ausglock]

Outstanding...

[igolfat8]

Will this VFD power a 480 VAC 3 phase motor? It’s says 220 3 phase in the description.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-0-75KW-1HP-220V-5A-FOR-CNC/401623067234

[Tazza]

Check your 3 phase motor, see if it can be wired in detla and not star, star is generally 415/480v star is 220/240 i believe.

Hopefully you will have a label where the wires connect to show how to wire in star or delta to give yo more options. If that fails, some VFDs give the option of 220 or 480v, i know mine did, but i suspect they will be more expensive.

[igolfat8]

I just bought this motor,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ohio-Gear-BMQ818-30-56-L-Ironman-Gearmotor-30-1-1-4hp-7-8in/382580359690?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[Tazza]

Looks like a good choice, it can be wired in start or delta, the delta is the low voltage one shown on the left side of the plate image.

[Cue]

I also use that VFD and it seems to be working fine.

[Tazza]

I can't believe they are so cheap, every one i have seen available over here is well over 100 bucks, brand named ones.. forget it, stupidly expensive. For the work we are using them for, they don't need to be fancy

[mozee]

Sorry for my silence. Been doing a bunch of things at once and lost track of this project.

So all of this stuff is really gibberish to me, anyhow, can something like this work for me? It does not have a gearbox so will still need to see if I can acquire one. I should ask though, is it necessary? I have done a straight conversion and the USD price will be roughly $52.

https://www.electramo.com/single-phase/ml-632-4-45

Code: ML000.18D4F2
kW: 0.18
Poles/RPM: 4 / 1500
Article: 1 PH
Supply: 230V/1Ph/50Hz

[Tazza]

There is no reason why not, i assume you have 230v and not 110?

The only advantage of the three phase motors discussed earlier is the fact you can use a VFD to alter the speed and if it jams up, it can be set to just stop and not keep pushing and possibly be damaged. You can also make it soft start, so it turns on slowly, instead of just full speed as you flick the switch.

I like having the option of speed adjustment, as is if i'm sizing longer projectiles, i can run it slower to allow the projectile more time to drop into the sizing die and not be caught in the slider. It may run slower, but still has pretty much the same torque as when it's running at full speed.

[mozee]

There is no reason why not, i assume you have 230v and not 110?

The only advantage of the three phase motors discussed earlier is the fact you can use a VFD to alter the speed and if it jams up, it can be set to just stop and not keep pushing and possibly be damaged. You can also make it soft start, so it turns on slowly, instead of just full speed as you flick the switch.

I like having the option of speed adjustment, as is if i'm sizing longer projectiles, i can run it slower to allow the projectile more time to drop into the sizing die and not be caught in the slider. It may run slower, but still has pretty much the same torque as when it's running at full speed.

Thanks for the feedback. Yup 220v, not 110v, I also like the idea of the VFD. Might as well go all the way and do it properly

I did find a 3 phase on the distributor website here in SA. Specs are as follows:
Code: 1M000.18D4F2
kW: 0.18
Poles/RPM: 4 / 1500
Article: IE1
Supply: 230-400V/3Ph/50Hz

I am guessing this should work? With regards to the VFD, do I need to look out for anything in particular? and should I try to get a gearbox to attach to the motor?

[mozee]

I could go for a 0.25kw for $12 more. Will that be overkill?

[Tazza]

Sorry, didn't remember you were in SA, so obviously you have real power down there (when there isn't a storm to take it out for a week...) That sure was a messed up time of year for you guys.

I'm never sure what the electrical KW to HP ratings are, mine is a 1/4 hp, so i can't tell you. Yet bigger isn't a bad idea, especially if you run a VFD as you can set the max current. You don't want it jamming up and breaking something.

The biggest issue can be mating the motor to the gear box, ideally find something that is an ISO standard that you know you can just slap a gear box to. Mine came as a unit, so i knew they were fine, i was told if needed a bigger motor, the motor was an ISO standard so swapping it would be easy.

Just little things to make sure you don't spend more than you need to.

Check gumtree as well, something may be available. Mine was used, but worked just fine.

[mozee]

Sorry, didn't remember you were in SA, so obviously you have real power down there (when there isn't a storm to take it out for a week...) That sure was a messed up time of year for you guys.

I'm never sure what the electrical KW to HP ratings are, mine is a 1/4 hp, so i can't tell you. Yet bigger isn't a bad idea, especially if you run a VFD as you can set the max current. You don't want it jamming up and breaking something.

The biggest issue can be mating the motor to the gear box, ideally find something that is an ISO standard that you know you can just slap a gear box to. Mine came as a unit, so i knew they were fine, i was told if needed a bigger motor, the motor was an ISO standard so swapping it would be easy.

Just little things to make sure you don't spend more than you need to.

Check gumtree as well, something may be available. Mine was used, but worked just fine.

Yeah power has been a challenge but we haven't seen load shedding for some time now, fingers crossed. Its not really a matter of a storm but more maintenance at the power plants. This has been deferred for a few years and obviously its starting to catch up with them now.

1/4HP is about 0.18kw , so the first option is a direct fit in terms of power. I will see if the distributor has gearboxes that'll fit that specific motor.

thanks for the tip on gumtree, I will give it try.

[Tazza]

I have had no issues sizing up to 135 grains with that motor setup, but the 158 SWC are more of a challenge, so going a bit bigger may be helpful. It all goes on the size if the wheel or arm you run off the gear box too, the bigger it is, the more power power you will need but you really don't need lots of movement to get the job done. My gear box is 28:1

Lets hope they have it all sorted out in time for summer, you guys sure get some silly temperatures for far too long, you need AC, so lots of load.

They did the same up here in Brisbane, they took all the money out and put nothing into infrastructure and wondered why things failed.... Where i moved to recently, we have had multiple power outages during the day, no idea why, but we still pay about $1.25 per day for the privilege to connect to the grid to get power when needed.... I thought we paid for stable power? seems not.

We haven't had load shedding since i was a kid, i hope it never comes to that, or i'll be out buying a generator :)

[mozee]

So the motor, box and VFD was delivered yesterday. Managed to get 0.25kw motor with a 50:1 gearbox. There’s a few things I need to have fabricated which will be slow but hope to get the automation done in a few weeks.

Certainly wasn’t cheap, but decided to buy once, cry once.


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[Tazza]

At 50:1 it will run a bit slower but have more torque, not a bad choice.

When running, it will be great, do show us how it turns out

[mozee]

At 50:1 it will run a bit slower but have more torque, not a bad choice.

When running, it will be great, do show us how it turns out

Yes, will do so. Is there anyway to figure out max RPM? If so how would I go about calculating it?


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[Tazza]

Should be easy, motor rpm divided by 50 will give max speed.

The plate on the motor should tell you the rated speed

[Cue]

Some disappointing news, I tried sizing some .45 230g powdercoated bullets today for the first time and the machine doesnt have the power to push them thru. They were roughly .455/.456 so I used a .454 die and on the down stroke I had to hit the ram with a rubber hammer each time to get it to go all the way thru. I then tried to size the .454 bullets to .452 and the same thing. I lubed the bullets with the Aqua lube from Hitek as well. Not sure how to fix it other than getting a new motor and rebuilding the press? Maybe I can get more torque if my arm was longer or in a different position? Here is a picture of where the arm is at when it gets stuck. Any ideas?

[Tazza]

I had the same issue with mine on some over sized 158 gr swc, i had to hit the ram rod to push them through.

You may be able to get a little better performance if you are able to shorten the "cam" linkage, the shorter the travel, the more torque you will have. At the position it's locking up, you have almost all the force it can apply.

The only thing you can try is to loosen the die a little to get it pushing a little further around on the stroke, the next issue is, you need it to travel far enough to push the complete projectile out, or else one needs to push the next one out

[Cue]

So you mean move the bolt that goes into the arm closer to the center of the shaft?

[Tazza]

I mean shorten the flat plate that bolts to the motor, the shorter this is, the more torque it will have, but give you less ram stroke though.

[Tazza]

Shortening the other rod i don't think will change anything, or at least it didn't on my setup.

[Cue]

Yea, thats the same thing I meant. I dont think it will have enough stroke. I guess im going to have to look for a different motor and rebuild.

Anyone have a guess on how many foot pounds it takes to size a bullet from say .455 to .452?

[Tazza]

The one thing you can try, may not work, but yiu can set the feeequency in the vfd, you may be able to over run it a bit to get. more power. Set to say 65 or 70 hertz. It may mess with the motor design and heat up faster....

Increase your current limit too.

Again, unsure if it will kill the motor or not though

[Cue]

Tried that, didnt help.

[Cue]

Looking at the plate on my motor, I didnt notice it is only .12 HP or .09KW so its not even 1/4 HP. I may try the motor igolfat8 posted above that he bought, It isa 1/4 HP at 1725 RPM. Not sure how it mounts though.

igolfat8 have you built yours with that motor yet?

[Tazza]

Shame the higher frequency didn't do the trick :(

I'd like to think it will have an ISO mounting that you can throw another motor at fairly easily. Hopefully a more powerful motor will be easy enough and cheap enough to find.

[Ausglock]

That gearbox should take a 0.18kW motor

[jsizemore]

Don't know if you've tried sizing within an hour or 2 of baking before they get a chance to get near final hardness.

[Cue]

Tried sizing about 20 minutes after baking.

[igolfat8]

Looking at the plate on my motor, I didnt notice it is only .12 HP or .09KW so its not even 1/4 HP. I may try the motor igolfat8 posted above that he bought, It isa 1/4 HP at 1725 RPM. Not sure how it mounts though.

igolfat8 have you built yours with that motor yet?

No, sorry but I haven’t used it yet. I’m still waiting on my sizer to ship from Gremlin.

[KAYDADOG]

VFD's are great and have come down in price over the years. I believe with any motor rating as you increase the RPM the torque curve goes down. This is where the motor being used has to be sized accordingly. Larger is never the problem you can control the maximum torque or current with the drive parameters. You can't get more torque out of a rated motor by just increasing the rpm. Worked with VFD's in industry for many years. I could be wrong and just wanted to supply some information to anyone trying to make automated equipment.
Thank You

[Tazza]

VFD's are great and have come down in price over the years. I believe with any motor rating as you increase the RPM the torque curve goes down. This is where the motor being used has to be sized accordingly. Larger is never the problem you can control the maximum torque or current with the drive parameters. You can't get more torque out of a rated motor by just increasing the rpm. Worked with VFD's in industry for many years. I could be wrong and just wanted to supply some information to anyone trying to make automated equipment.
Thank You

I figured the torque would stay the same with the higher RPM, i hoped that the extra inertia would be enough to get that little extra bit to get it through the sizer die, but seems it wasn't the case.

[Cue]

What do you think would have more torque/power to push thru. A 1/4HP 1725 RPM motor geared 30:1 or a 1/2HP 1410 RPM motor geared 20:1?

[Tazza]

I'd like to say the 1/2hp 20:1 would have more torque, the thing is, i have found even at lower speed, you still have loads of torque with a VFD. You won't be running it flat out at 20:1, i think it will be too fast

[Cue]

I was thinking the 1/4hp since the rpm was higher and the gear ratio higher LOL, thats why I asked in the forum.

The 1/4hp would be running at 57RPM and the 1/2hp would be 70rpm so neither one would be too fast, would be just right speed :)

[Tazza]

This one may be best for someone with more brain cells than me to confirm then. My logic was the 1/2HP is twice the power of the 1/4, the difference between the reduction is about 30% with my maths, 1 + 1 = 7 right?

70 RPM still seems a little too fast for me, but it may work just fine for you. I have the occasional issue of moving too fast and the projectile doesn't quite have enough time to fall from the feed tube into the slider or the slider to the sizing die and catches. It doesn't happen often, but something that if it ran a little slower may not occur.

[igolfat8]

The output power is measured in torque. Whichever one has more torque is the winner.

[Cue]

Which leads back to my question which one of the two Motors would have more torque?

[Tazza]

So, looking on the internet, how true this is or not i don't know but....
https://sciencing.com/measure-electric-motor-torque-7810276.html

With those figures i get:
1/4hp gives .761 ftlbs
1/2hp gives 1.862 ft lbs.

With the reduction box, assuming no losses so they are compared the same:
1/4 hp gives 22.83 ft lbs due to a reduction of 30:1 so multiply it by 30.
1/2 hp gives 37.24 ft lbs due to reduction of 20:1 so multiply by 20

I have no idea if i math well enough to get those figured right or not, but the website is there to see if you can math better to get a figure that seems ok.

[Cue]

Thanks for that site. The only thing that throws a wrench in it is the label on the gearbox of the 1/4 hp says 485in pounds which is 40 foot pounds of torque.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ohio-Gear-BMQ818-30-56-L-Ironman-Gearmotor-30-1-1-4hp-7-8in/382580359690?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[Tazza]

Hopefully the 40 lb on the plate just means max input torque?

[Conditor22]

Wondering if a hole hawg drill with a speed adjustment screw/strap attached to the trigger would work:confused:

[Tazza]

Depending on the wattage and gearing, it might. The only issue i see is if it's running at a lower speed for a longer time, the cooling might not be enough.

Brushed motors are generally louder too.

[igolfat8]

There should be a label on the gearbox that shows the output torque.

[Cue]

There should be a label on the gearbox that shows the output torque.

Most of them do not have output torque on the label but the one you bought, and the one I linked above does, but it does not match with the math that the site above says used to calculate the torque which is what we were discussing.

[Tazza]

I'd still think the torque on the gearbox will be maximum torque, as they are generally modular, so you mount whatever style and size motor you want for the application.

With the motor and gearbox i got off a mad mate, he said if the motor doesn't have enough power, we can for a larger one to it as its an ISO mount so just swap motors to do whatever job you want. I think it would be quite rare for an electric motor manufacturer to make motors and gear boxes, they'd generally do one or the other. In a shop, it makes sense to have them separate as you can choose the motor, then choose the box, means they can keep far less stock on hand to mix and match. At least, that's how i'd do it.

[Ausglock]

Motovario make motors and worm drive gearboxes.

[Cue]

I bought the same motor igolfat8 did and after some reworking and making new parts, and a fresh powdercoat of the frame it is now done. This motor is a lot larger than the other one I was using and has plenty of power, I was even trying some small .380 and one got in the die sideways and it just sheared it in half, so no problem with the .45's I was having trouble with.
Here is a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6bE3HUmt38&feature=youtu.be

[Tazza]

That is awesome!

Shame mine isn't that pretty..... It mostly does the job, but looks like a hobo built it :)

[Ausglock]

good job.

[Cue]

Thanks guys, it is working very well now.

[mozee]

So I’ve been fairly quiet. Been very busy to read or comment on the forum. It’s been a hectic 2 months as I am involved in the 3d printing business and we had 2 major exhibitions to attend, one weekend after another. Glad to say that tonight was the last for a good few months and I can now focus on bullets.

In any event, I commissioned a very good friend of mine who has a double garage full of machinery. At first it was a simple request to help me with the pulley etc but as he looked at my requirements, he was interested in building the complete thing, including wiring the VFD etc.

If you recall, I purchased a 3 phase 1400rpm motor with a 50:1 box. I dropped this of flat with the VFD and the sizing machine as well as several videos and pictures at his place about 2 weeks ago. Today he sent me a few videos of it running and I am very impressed with it thus far. We plan on running a few bullets this week, but I am fairly positive it’s going to work as expected.

I should add that we looked at the linkages of the sizing machines and changed some of the Magma clevis’ to bearings. You can see it in the video.

Any comments are welcome, please.

https://youtu.be/Q3HThbhTfc8

https://youtu.be/TeBq2Yg2s0A


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[Cue]

Very nice and simple, I like it!

[Dragonheart]

I automated my sizing years ago using an air cylinder and I can do about 2K an hour. Unfortunately, this is a project that requires a good bit of tools and expertise to put together.

[igolfat8]

I’m still waiting on my AS2 to ship.

[Tazza]

In Mike's defense, he had a heart attack a few weeks ago, he was on docs and the wife's orders to take things easy till he fully recovered.

It may be an idea to give him a gentle reminder to see how he is going with your AS2.

[igolfat8]

Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for the info. I hope he recovers quickly.

[Tazza]

He was one of the lucky ones, he is still with us at least.

I have 2 other shooting mates that have have had heart attacks in the last 12 months, one was only a few weeks ago, but thankfully one has fully recovered, the other is on the mend still.

[Ausglock]

I'll have to give the Pommy mongrel a call and stir him up..