.303 British to 6.5x53R Dutch

[mac60]

I recently gained custody of this beauty from another board member.

245168

245169

I'm not through with it yet, but the bore is clean and shiny. As time allows I'll get the stock clean.

Now I needed ammo. I read all I could find on the subject - there have been several threads about this conversion. It looked doable, so I decided to give it a shot. I rounded up 100 pcs. of brand new virgin R-P headstamp brass, a set of RCBS 6.5x54 MS dies and a Hornady 6.5mm generic neck sizing die. I f/l sized with a Lee .303 Brit. die then pushed the shoulder back with a .308 Win. Lee die w/the expander removed, then necked it down further with a 7mm-08 Lee die w/the expander removed. Then, I trimmed it to 2.1" with Forster trimmer powered by a 1/2" corded drill (it made short work of it). Then I ran them into the 6.5x54 MS f/l die and trimmed them to 2.1" again. I cleaned all the lube (mink oil) off of them then annealed them and ran them through the tumbler again. Didn't lose a single piece. I'm totally satisfied with the final product. I enjoyed every minute of it and I can't wait for the weather to cool off so I can shoot it. I might try to shoot a doe with it.

245170

L to R: f/l sized .303 brit., shoulder pushed back in .308 die, necked down in 7mm-08 die, trimmed and sized f/l in 6.5x54 MS die, dummy round - the boolit is a Lee cruise missle. I'd like to thank EDG for his guidance for my little project and condorjohn for letting me take custody of "shorty".

[EDG]

Gongrats - glad your forming project had no KIA.

[mac60]

Gongrats - glad your forming project had no KIA.

Thank you Sir - I owe you one.

[KenT7021]

Did you do anything to the rim thickness?

[EDG]

The rim thickness is OK as is with WW, RP and FC brass.

With some clips the rims seem a little large in diameter requiring a hard push to strip the round through the feed lips. I have never made any changes for that issue but you could turn the rims down about .005" to make feeding easier and smoother.


Did you do anything to the rim thickness?

[15meter]

Forming 6.5x53R or .256 Mannlicher from 303 British brass

Full length size with a .303 British die, expander removed

Push shoulder back with a .308 Win. neck die(it’s what I had on the bench)
With the expander removed, die is set .050” above the shell holder

Neck it down further with a 7x57 die w/the expander removed, die is set .050” above the shell holder.

Size with 6.5x54 MS f/l die with the expander in place

Trim to final length.

De-burr id/od

Clean and polish all lube off

Anneal

Re-polish after anneal

I use a shell holder that has been ground down ~.015” in thickness, this helps push the shoulder back to insure chambering, I’m loading for a Jeffrey marked rifle in .256 Mannlicher. I’ve also loaded for another .256 Mannlicher with no problems. I have not had to neck turn(YET!). I’ll have a third one to play with shortly, hopefully I won’t have to neck turn for it.

To set the .050” gap, I lay a .050 gage block on top of the shell holder then set the die against that.

Last batch of WW brass haven't had to do anything with the rims, I hope that continues.

This works for me, YMMV.

[Abert Rim]

Great thread guys. I'll look for some WW brass .303 brass to feed the .256 project -- and a P14 in the original caliber.

[mace2364]

It’s been a little work since I did this conversion. But, I don’t think I resized the .303 casings in another die before the 6.5. I use nickel plated cases(to make them easily identifiable from my other .303 cases). But I’m pretty sure I just trimmed them and then ran them through the 6.5 die. I use imperial sizing wax whenever I do a conversion like this.

[EDG]

I tested a lot of once fired cases and killed practically all of them by collapsing the case like an accordion at the shoulder. A few Federal cases appeared to be softer in the neck and shoulder and they formed with only the 6.5X53R trim die. All cases made by WW and RP failed to form using only the trim die.
After these test results I trim pushing the shoulder back and necking down in steps and got a 100% good results. So I recommend that method with the expense of new brass these days. Since forming these cases takes so many steps I do not recommend using once fired cases already stretched by firing in a Lee-Enfield.
If you have a batch of Berdan primed .303 once fired brass that you cannot reload you can at least use them to test your case forming process before you risk new brass.

[Gobeyond]

@mac60 does the bullet in the picture in the finished product have a gas check? What would happen if you annealed the brass first the could you form it in one pass?

[curdog007]

If the reformed cases don't feed smoothly in the enbloc clips, radius the back edge of the rims. That will fix the feeding.
Look at the old 6.5 rimmed cartridges, they are like this.

[15meter]

@mac60 does the bullet in the picture in the finished product have a gas check? What would happen if you annealed the brass first the could you form it in one pass?

Most cases will collapse during forming if annealed first. On this conversion, I used new brass, tried fired brass and had no luck.

If I recall correctly, Ken Waters recommended new brass only for this conversion. I'll have to dig out my Pet Loads book to verify that.

Some conversions I've done in a single pass, not this one, small movement of brass multiple times seemed to get me better results.

I detailed the steps I used earlier in this thread, far from the only way, probably not the optimal way, but it got usable brass with zero loss for me.

[EDG]

I formed a few Federal .303 cases in one pass but for the most part you get collapsed shoulders if you try it in one pass.
The more annealed the cases the worse they collapse.
I ruined a lot of cases experimenting and found that multiple steps is the only way to get a significant number of good cases without producing a lot of scrap.


@mac60 does the bullet in the picture in the finished product have a gas check? What would happen if you annealed the brass first the could you form it in one pass?

[mac60]

@mac60 does the bullet in the picture in the finished product have a gas check? What would happen if you annealed the brass first the could you form it in one pass?

Sorry for losing track of this thread. The boolit in question does have a gas check. It's an aluminum check I got from Sage outdoors. I have to admit it didn't shoot well at all - couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. The boolit tumbled at 50 yds. There was no leading, it just wasn't accurate. The forming procedure I used was the result of the homework I did, so I really couldn't say what would happen if you tried to do it in one pass. The upside is that I have brass for the gun. It shoots very well with a 140 gr. Speer jacketed bullet, but I couldn't get it to shoot that particular cast boolit at all. That Lee mould is the only 6.5 mm mould I have.

[15meter]

Sorry for losing track of this thread. The boolit in question does have a gas check. It's an aluminum check I got from Sage outdoors. I have to admit it didn't shoot well at all - couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. The boolit tumbled at 50 yds. There was no leading, it just wasn't accurate. The forming procedure I used was the result of the homework I did, so I really couldn't say what would happen if you tried to do it in one pass. The upside is that I have brass for the gun. It shoots very well with a 140 gr. Speer jacketed bullet, but I couldn't get it to shoot that particular cast boolit at all. That Lee mould is the only 6.5 mm mould I have.

[smilie=w:Found this thread again, thought it had gone into the BIZ bag. Get to drag it back to the top for more dissection, you probably need a shorter boolit, if I remember correctly, the Lee is in the 170 grain neighborhood and designed for the 6.5x55 which had a stupid fast twist for it's day.

Don't think the Mannlicher has that fast a twist. I load either a 130 or a 140 grain boolit from Lyman molds, all depends on what I have cast last.

[Tedly]

I went through all this case forming stuff when I had a M95 carbine. I ultimately started buying Bertram brass through Grafs or Midway and got 20 + plus loadings out of it , jacketed and cast combined.

[15meter]

I went through all this case forming stuff when I had a M95 carbine. I ultimately started buying Bertram brass through Grafs or Midway and got 20 + plus loadings out of it , jacketed and cast combined.

Nice notion if it was available. Last was approaching $4 each. Hasn't been available for a quite awhile. I found 150 pieces of W-W 303B on the shelf last summer. For 60 cents each.

Knowing how to do it is still a skill I would prefer to have.

[mac60]

I went through all this case forming stuff when I had a M95 carbine. I ultimately started buying Bertram brass through Grafs or Midway and got 20 + plus loadings out of it , jacketed and cast combined.

That's excellent case life. The case conversion was a labor of love for me - I enjoyed every minute of it. It got pushed to the back burner due to some health problems. Maybe one day I'll look around and see if I can get another 6.5 mould and see if I can get it to shoot cast. It does shoot pretty well with a jacketed bullet though.

[DonHowe]

As the groove diameter of my M95 carbine is ~.270" I load the Cruise Missile beagles up to .2715"+. 16gr 2400 under that bullet has given 50yd groupsike 1"x1 3/4" which is as good as I can see these days.
A friend also has a Dutch carbine. His jacketed bullet loads yield about the same size groups as my cast loads. The jacketed bullets are sized down from .277".

[Good Cheer]

I found an incredible difference in dimensions between as-sized and as-fired cases, as if to say the 1915 chamber was cut to accommodate mud. Greater case capacity on as-fired cases... an opportunity.

The barrel on mine is a corroded mess so I'm working my way towards sending it off to rebore. Currently scrounging brass to form into a cast boolit friendly wildcat. .338" (or possibly .358") groove diameter, chamber neck gets recut to suit untrimmed brass, then sending off fire formed cases for a full length sizer die.

Passing thought... if someone would like to trade .303's for formed 6.5x53R's, please let me know.

[mac60]

As the groove diameter of my M95 carbine is ~.270" I load the Cruise Missile beagles up to .2715"+. 16gr 2400 under that bullet has given 50yd groupsike 1"x1 3/4" which is as good as I can see these days.
A friend also has a Dutch carbine. His jacketed bullet loads yield about the same size groups as my cast loads. The jacketed bullets are sized down from .277".

I couldn't get the thing to shoot cast well at all. I haven't slugged the bore yet. With coww the mould I have drops .269" - .270". I need to slug the bore - maybe I can improve things if I load some unsized.

Good Cheer - I don't shoot the Dutch M95 much so the 100 pcs. of brass I have will most likely outlive me. I have 2 rifles that shoot .303 Brit. so what .303 brass I have I'm kinda hoarding.

[Good Cheer]

mac60,
I've gotten lucky and found new .303's![smilie=w:

[DonHowe]

I couldn't get the thing to shoot cast well at all. I haven't slugged the bore yet. With coww the mould I have drops .269" - .270". I need to slug the bore - maybe I can improve things if I load some unsized.

I "beagled" the Cruise Missile mould up to .272" and do not size it, just crimp the gas check. My bore is horrendous so from a clean bore I push patches loaded with bullet lube thru the barrel to "pre-condition" it. The CM bullet carries lots of lube and a few fouling shots gives the bore a nice coating of lube over the roughness and the old girl shoots acceptably well.
I tried paper patch bullet early on only to have a clean bore destroy the patches. At 50yds a shotgun might have given a tighter group. One day on a whim I fired a the few remaining PP loads after shooting lubed bullets and having a good lube coating in the bore. Paper patches were not shredded and the mild-jacketed-velovity loads grouped well.
Soots of lube is the key! Oh, and I water drop the Cruise Missile bullet and load over 166.0gr/2400 powder.

[Gobeyond]

I bought my cases on GB, not too bad price. I tried a lead .269 bullet from western 165 grain and a 258 PP. Both had their troubles. I used 4895, Varget, 4227 with descent accuracy at 200 yds. Will shoot more .269s but try to tune the powder. It likes262 better- unleaded. Forming is great will have to make the invest and do. LGM on gb suits me.

[Indy650]

crap I dont have any of those other dies needed. Anyone know if any companies sell the 6.5X53R brass?

[15meter]

crap I dont have any of those other dies needed. Anyone know if any companies sell the 6.5X53R brass?

I used the dies listed because that's what I had on the bench if you've got kinda sorta the same sized dies, give them a try, what I did was trial and error to get a workable solution.

You may get to the same place with a different set of dies.

8x57 to start the shoulder back?

30-30 started reducing?

Experiment might get you what you want.

What dies do you own?

Anybody nearby you can mooch dies from?

Good luck!

[TheAbe]

Well, here’s my 2 cents. I just formed a few cases which appear to be the dimensions of 6.5x53r from .303 British in 2 major steps. Step 1: trim .303 case using 7.65x53 Mauser trim length mandrel and deburr/chamfer. Step 2: after lubrication, form with full length 6.5 Japanese/Arisaka die w/o the expansion pin. This would appear to set back the shoulder to the appropriate location as well as the start of the neck. I need a Dutch chamber to test them in, but there is an M95 New Carbine at a local shop that will be coming home with me my next trip there, and hopefully these will fit. If this works, it would make the forming process a bit simpler than those so far proven. Does this look about right? 315225

[pworley1]

I found a 6.5x54 trim die used years ago and it makes quick work of forming brass. Run the 303 into the trim die, trim, size, anneal load shoot.

[2152hq]

I form 6.5x53R from 303Brit. My 303 cases are all once fired HXP-72/73 dated Greek Military.
They are boxer primed and very good brass.

I anneal the brass down to the shoulder first. But I don't let it get red hot. No need to get the brass that dead soft.
Just a few seconds in the propane flame and let it cool on the floor.

Resize in FL 303 die.

Then I have been going straight to a 6.5 M/S FL sizer die for forming.
With care they form in one step. You have to use plenty of sizing lube (Imperial Wax).
It helps to start sizing then pull the case back out. Swipe the lube back around the case again and back into the die.

Out they come with the long neck and if I don't get the lube too far down on the case,,no lube dents in the shoulder. That just comes froma bitof practice.

Trim to approx length.

Then one step I need to do that doesn't seem to be mentioned by others is that I need to Inside Neck ream.
But not for the reason of thinning the neck brass. But instead for removing what is called the 'Donut' of brass that builds up at the base of the neck Inside the newely formed case.

All that reduction in diameter and shoulder push back,,the brass has to go somewhere and it can't go to the outside of the case as the die prevents it.
So any excess pushes & piles up on the inside.

Check your reformed 6.5 from 303 cases for that ring of brass at the base of the neck.
Or you may discover it when you are 1/2way thru the reloading process.
Simply inserting a bullet if it'll slide in or a twist drill shank of very close dia will tell you if it's there as either will stop dead against it.

To remove the ring, I guess the proper way is a reamer and such set up.
Not having that, I mearly used an appropriate Letter drill IIRC right. 'G' I think it is at .262
The point is sharp, the flutes are dulled so as not to remove brass from the side walls of the neck.

Quick work of Mr.Donut is done with this in a drill press/ MillDrill.

Then final trimming to length. ect and load.

I get approx 8 to 10 reloads out of the cases in a Sporter built on a Romanian bbl'd action w/ orig bbl.
Always min loads (6.5M/S) and surplus 160gr FMJ bullets that I bought several 100 of in bulk in the last Century for $1/100

I have a 1896 Portuguese Short Navy rifle that will get a try out this summer as well with the ammo.

Range toys,,all of them.