What Would You Do?!?!?

[Zingger]

To start this out- I have a 32-20 Marlin 1894cl. Love it, shoot it as often as I can. The dilemma- yesterday I found an original, non-messed with Winchester 1892 in 25-20(circa 1911). Beautiful patina, wood looks great, cycles like a dream! Hadn't been shot in at least 45 years! Came with a brand new box of ammo from a gunshop that has been closed for likely 20+ years. (I remember going in the shop as a little kid)

The bad- cleaned it good last night, bore doesn't look great. Like missing rifling not great.

The ugly- took it out this morning. Shot 3 rounds at 25 yards offhand, hit a standard sheet of paper 2x. Moved back to 50 and couldn't hit the paper. Oh, by the way: the 2 hits were both very obvious keyhole shots.

Leading to this dilemma- Do I have it re-lined? I am thinking yes. But to what? *Keep it original!* Well, I am not much to want to make brass for the 25-20 when I already have a 32wcf ready to run. Have a 32-20 liner installed, and hope they can make the number switch on the barrel? Or try to find a purist and hand it off to them?

What I am asking guidance on- Please respond with the number and the rationale.

1. Don't mess with it, hang it on the wall and take the loss, or sell it to a purist looking for one for nostalgic purposes.
2. re-line the barrel to a 25-20 and buy all of the materials to reload for it.
3. re-line the barrel to a 32-20 which I can reload and cast for, and a person can find ammunition for.

Thank you in advance for any advice!245038245039245040245041245042

[Hickory]

Happy trails to you...#3

[Rimfire]

Were the bullets you tried shooting jacketed or the plated lead? If the lead ones it may just be them.I had a 25-20 that would not shoot factory lead Rem. or Win. but shot jacketed and cast fine. If it doesn't shoot jacketed well I would have Bobby Hoyt re-bore to 32-20.

[corbinace]

#2 if it were me.

You already have 50 pieces of brass.
You already have a 32.20, who needs two.
No restamping.

Or number four, sell it to me and cut your losses. I would love to have it.

[Zingger]

To clarify- the bullets shot were factory jacketed ammo. I have yet to open the box I got with the rifle, have a friend who has some, and a partial box. I will keep the option open corbinace, you have access to Redman, who is the renowned gunsmith for a re-line, from what I have read.

[john.k]

Who says you dont need two guns in 32-20?........IMHO,get a good replacement 25 or 32-20 barrel,and keep the original and replace it when you need or want to sell the gun...............the way values are going ,sooner or later you will kick yourself for altering the original barrel.

[ATCDoktor]

I absolutely understand considering having it rebarreled to 32 20 but if it were me, I’d have it relined back to its original caliber.

The 25/20 WCF (IMHO) is a very neat cartridge and is a must have for any levergun enthusiast (who reloads).

Ammo is available (albeit expensive) and brass can be made from 32 20’s if one is somewhat handy With tools/dies.

This Model 92 was rebarreled to 25/20 at some point in its life (gunsmith unknown) using a barrel of somewhat robust diameter and unknown lineage (Honestly I think the whole rifle was cobbled together from parts but it is a fine shooter)

https://i.postimg.cc/N0brK9Ld/DACAAB35-7-A57-42-DB-B54-F-A13-EE49-FD27-B.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It is fairly accurate with loads it likes and is an exceptionally fun cartridge to load for and shoot:

That said, I do have a very rough Winchester Model 92 that was rebored to 32/20 by an unknown gunsmith many many years ago that shoots alright.

https://i.postimg.cc/QMV4kfL1/D387B484-FAC4-4BC5-BD85-2443C78BC104.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/SspPSy9x/CF14A7E7-B9C5-422B-A64B-C724380BC3F5.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It appears to have rattled around in a sheep herders saddle scabbard for a considerable portion of its life and if you look close at the full-length horizontal pics you’ll see that the rear sight was a homemade affair.

The rebore on mine appears to have been done properly but I believe he gunsmith got the chamber dimensions a little large because there is ver little taper/shoulder left on a fired case.

My handloads will group into about 3” at 100 yards using a OEM replacement rear ladder sight.

https://i.postimg.cc/G22HrJcD/3CED60D3-7CCE-41B0-B6CF-61399ADAD879.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And with a 115 grain castboolit running 1250 FPS it’s accurate enough for small game inside 100 yards.

https://i.postimg.cc/8kqW0nnS/EF5-BCDB1-D234-4-EB4-843-C-345561845-A82.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Whatever you decide I’m sure you’ll be happy with your 92.

[Cheeto303]

drwinchester1873 Has a couple of barrels on ebay for 150.00. Winchester 1892 Carbine Barrel 25-20 Round 20" Good Shape.

[Thomas Creek]

#1 Pass it on to a collector and replace it with a "shooter" in your choice of caliber. Might try J bullets for fun or slug the barrel and whats left. Good luck.

[samari46]

While I realize the value would drop if you relined the barrel, I'd do it in a heart beat. Frank

[Mike H]

Do nothing for a while,except keep cleaning the bore and fire an occasional shot,it’s possible a well fitting lead bullet may shoot.

[Zingger]

Thank you one and all for the thoughts and encouragement! So far the direction I am seeing is "leave it alone for time being, it is only original once!" I currently have no reloading materials for the 25-20, and bore goes to .259 at the muzzle. I was dropping a .257 bullet directly down the barrel, it never even slowed down on it's way to the chamber.
The sheer startup cost of reloading/casting for 25-20 is what is making me think twice about it over the 32-20, especially when I have my Dillon set up for 32-20. With a few months down the road, maybe some brass/reloading materials will come to light at a reasonable price.

I am leaning in the leaving it be for right now, keep cleaning and conditioning the bore to see if 45+ years of rust and grime will come out of the bore. The next gunshow- take it with to see if there is a collector who will give it a good home, or get in touch with Corbinace to see if an offer exists. I still welcome all/any feedback any members wish to leave.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm guessing you are being torn pretty bad between the history / collectibility of the rifle and actually having the rifle so you can use it. Yep . . . it's a nice old Winchester and the value would probably be hurt some if relined . . . but what good is a rifle that can't be shot worth a darn? If an earlier owner of it had used it a lot, if it stopped shooting well due to barrel wear, they would have relined it and carried on using it for critters and putting meat on the table.

Yes . . . you can make 25-20 out of 32-20 and have it relined to the 25-20 . . . but you need to determine if you want to fool with all of that, get set up for 25-20 . . . dies, molds, etc. and if you go that route, are you going to shoot it enough to make it worthwhile for you to get enjoyment out of it . . . or is it going to be a flash in the pan that you'll get tired of and go back to using the 32-20 you enjoy?

If you enjoy shooting, loading, etc. your other 32-20 then you'll probably enjoy having this rifle chambered in that as well. The rifle is yours and you don't need to feel guilty about any route you take with it. Personally, if it was me . . . I'd have the barrel lined for the 32-20 and enjoy the heck out of it. If an owner in years to come wants it back to the 25-20, they can have the barrel re-done for that caliber.

Just my 2 cents which ain't worth a nickel but if you leave it like it is, how much enjoyment are you going to get out of it every time you look at it on the wall and wish you could shoot it? If you decide to do nothing to it and sell it for a collector or for the next guy to make it in to a shooter again, I'm guessing you will regret it for a long time. It's a great looking "old gal" . . . whether you go 25-20 or 32-20, she deserves to have her life given back to her so she can provide enjoyment to whoever holds and shoots her . . .

Good luck in whatever way you go.

[Texas by God]

Sell it and use the proceeds to get a Marlin 1894 CL in 25-20 and dies/ mould/ brass. I can't stand an inaccurate rifle.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[TCFAN]

If that rifle was mine I would reline the barrel to 25-20 and buy the forming dies and load for it. I make 218 Bee from 32-20 brass and making 25-20 from 32-20 brass is not that hard with the right dies. You only have to buy the dies one time for a life time of shooting.

[edp2k]

1. have the current barrel rebored to 32-20 by JES. costs are capped after the re-bore (i.e. you dont have to buy any new dies/molds).
or
2. get an oversized mold for 25 cal and 25-20 dies and buy 25-20 brass or make it from 32-20 using forming dies or
maybe a 25-20 sizing die will work to resize 32-20 to 25-20. costs: new mold, new dies. this is prob cheaper than a rebore and keeps the gun orig.

[rockrat]

MIght be my eyes, but that barrel looks larger than normal. Was that a special order gun?

Me, I would go with #3. I bought a 25-20 like yours and had it relined back to 25-20, but wish I had gone to 32-20 instead.

[DrDucati]

I'm a little curious as to what led you to get the 25-20, knowing you'd face this dilemma. Was it that big a steal? Anyway, if I could afford, I'd sell it and find an old one in the 32-20. That is just me though, because altering the chambering would haunt me forever. But I'm weird like that. It's your gun though. If you like it, reline it. 100 years from now, it will be part of the history of the rifle.

[bob208]

I would go with the reline. but then I like .25-20 over .32-20 shoots flatter. but then I do have both.

[Zingger]

edp2k- I didn't know that JES went into the 30 cals. DrD- I wasn't too sure of the bore, had a lot of dust in it when I bought it. For the cost of the rifle, it would have been very foolish to turn it down, even figuring in the cost of a re-line it will still be well under the current market price. I have a very good friend who is a fan of the 25-20 and cussed a blue streak when I purchased a 32-20 instead. I have been looking for an excuse to buy one. This rifle was sitting in a closet for over 45 years, and deserves some love. Rockrat- I had though that it was a bit too big as well. The sight is adjustable by screw, not elevator. I would have thought to oversize slug, but looking through the borescope that finally arrived today it is devoid of any rifling in a majority of the barrel.
The following is a tough story- be ready.....
The old man I bought it from got it from his father in law, who bought it new. The old man had taught his son to shoot with it, had taken it deer hunting but put it away when his son got sick. Cancer. He beat it, but last year it got him. The elderly man's wife told him to sell both of the guns. I had called and visited with him about it. He asked me if I could do --- price. I assured him that I could and made the hour drive to meet him. He told me the story and I asked him if this was truly what he wanted. He insisted that he has no need for it "cause his hunting and fishing buddy isn't here anymore".
If that don't make a guy mist up a bit, then you are tougher than myself.
On to happier thoughts though-
Took the rifle back to town to a newer gunsmith, just starting up his own shop. He was apprenticed to the premier guy in state, and after visiting with him I want to help him get started and have an example of his work. He took one look at this rifle and thought it was cherry on the outside. But his and my moral bell is ringing when the barrel clearly says 25-20 WCF. He thought it would take some time and whiskey to kill the guilt of etching 32-20 into the barrel when it is so clearly the other. So I am doing some serious reading and leaning on all of you good folks.

I kinda feel like returning him to the original caliber, handing it down with the story and treasuring the old girl when it gets shot and carried. Thanks all for the input, let's keep it coming!

[ulav8r]

Since it is not the style I want in a 92, I would remove the barrel, magazine and stocks. It would then get a new 20 inch half octagon barrel in 32-20 a blind magazine, schnobble forearm and buttstock with a rifle buttplate. The parts removed would be kept in case a future owner wanted to return it to original.

[725]

What a great dilemma to have. Of course it boils down to what you want but I'm a #2 guy. Some re-lines are just about invisible. It would become a shooter again and continue life doing what it was born to do.

[Zingger]

Thanks to a fellow CB member, I will be purchasing some 25-20 brass and it shall continue to be a 25-20. Because so many of you have shared your very valuable input, I will be bringing you all along on the ride as I work up loads and take her out to shoot once more.

[.45Cole]

You already have a 32-20 (and they're pretty slow comparatively) so I'd go with the faster cartridge. You can buy bee brass and size up, with a little trim to length loss. Maybe another option I'm sure won't be the purist choice: reline to .218 bee. That thing gets there!

Otherwise, reline to 25-20

[bob208]

before doing anything clean that bore real good. I picked up a 92 rifle in .32-20 one time cheap because it had no bore left. I got it it home and started cleaning. yep it was leaded up.

[MT Gianni]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=26_177&osCsid=5v0hobtpqphd1s0oo56cd30d13
I would try this mold, hope it casts fat, Beagle it if it doesn't, get a custom sizing die @ 0.261" and try it with fat bullets. It gives you an attempt to make the gun work as is.

[Shawlerbrook]

#2. Reline to 25 20.

[Zingger]

Bob- I scrubbed her like we all had to when we came home with dirt under our fingernails. No rifling left on the old girl. Ran the new hawkeye down the bore as well, can see some rifling at the very beginning. To my knowledge it has only shot jacketed factory rounds. #2 is the route I am going with, thanks to a member here who had a bunch of brass in 25-20. Midway is sending cowboy dies and Meister bullets. It will be a sole cast rifle, the ammo I have for it already will very likely find a collector. My 32-20 is a lead slinger as well and I am more than happy with it.

My legitimate fear is that the 25 won't be able to keep up to the 30. Will have to wait and see. Don't want to jinx anything!

Thanks again everyone!

[bob208]

well I was hoping the bore cleaning would have worked for you . but I would reline it back to the original cal. then.

[Zingger]

Update: I had the rifle re-lined back to a 25-20 and received it Friday night. Yesterday I took the beginning loads and some antique factory stuff and went to the rifle range. I will likely increase the powder from 4.5 to 5 grains of unique on the little lead bullets (85 grain?) and give it another go. It is a great companion to my 32-20, glad I did it. The smith who did the work could get a TJ'S liner, we went with a Redman. Now it is just getting the sights aligned and true the front sight (somewhere in the last 108 years it has flattened out and has a dogleg). Thank you one and all for the insight on what to do with this, will post pictures of the target when things slow down a bit.

[John Taylor]

I do a lot of work for collectors. If the bore is bad it is not valuable to a collector, most of them want something that looks like it was never used. I get lots of these in for reline because they are worth more as a shooter than a collectable. If a person is worried about loosing the original, a new barrel can be installed and the old barrel set aside, it can always go back to original.
Several years back a customer sent me a rifle with a bad bore and he wanted to shoot it. He paid more than the rifle was worth and all his friend said he would loose value if he had it re-lined. So he asked me to send it back. He now has a wall hanger that he can't get his money out of and he can't shoot it.

[Zingger]

I was very fortunate to purchase the rifle reasonably. With the barrel liner installed, I am still roughly at current market value. At the end of the day, I am glad that I went through the trouble to have it re-lined. The most hardcore collectors won't pay because of the reline, but at the end of the day, the rifle is and will always be a shooter.

[forwardgunner]

John Taylor relined my 1892 in 25-20 and you cannot tell it was a relined job. Now it shoots great! No regrets!

[Zingger]

So- 3 types of powders, all running the Meister 85 gr cast have given me a consistent low and left, no matter the adjustment.I can bring elevation close, but by the time I get to the windage, moving both front and back, it won't seem to move. I have whittled on the front sight, moved the back sight (has a screw, then moves easily back and forth). Any thoughts?!!? I am on the verge of putting wheels on it, I can't say I have had this much frustration with a rifle. period.... Different front sight? Then I would have to change the back out as well, to match. Any and all nuggets of wisdom will be appreciated.

[ATCDoktor]

I had to go back and look at the pics you have in your original post to try and see what type of sight arrangement you have.

It appears that rear sight you have on your rifle is for a Winchester Model 1906 22 rimfire pump action rifle as it is made for a rimfire (most probably 22 Short).

https://i.postimg.cc/mgm6T1r3/EE99-E137-C528-42-F1-87-C3-8322079-C3-E13.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

If the above pic is what your rear sight looks it might be impossible for you to correct your POI to correspond to a proper sight picture with that sight arrangement.

You will most likely need to replace the rear sight with a proper Model 92 sight that looks like this one:

https://i.postimg.cc/YqZhZb6Q/F431-E003-1871-4-E5-B-9732-477-E8219-C82-C.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

As far as windage adjustments go, with that type of rear sight, (the one for the Model 1906) you need to be moving your front sight left or right to make your windage changes.

If you have been attempting to drift the front sight and you can’t get it to move, you either need to hit it harder or investigate whether or not someone has attempted to drive in a sight that’s got too big a base for the dovetail.

[Zingger]

ATCDR- I want to thank you for your wisdom. After looking and doing some exhaustive research on the subject I came to (close to) a likely culprit in the rear sight. You are exactly correct on the type. Great Eyes! I ordered a new elevator, am going to re-purpose the rear sight of my 94 trapper (fits nice!) and get the correct elevator. I have also ordered a new front sight from Skinner, to adjust down to the height I would need. Hope isn't dead yet!
Thanks again!
Zingger

[1Hawkeye]

Option #4 send it to JES and get it rebored to .32-20 it will cost half of a reline and with the condition of your rifle it will be a great shooter. If your rifle was near perfect condition I would say reline it but condition wise its pretty much a good shooter plus you've already got the loading stuff for .32-20.

[Zingger]

Good Morning Hawkeye- unfortunately that won't be an option anymore. The work and re-line has been done for 25-20. With some certainty I think ATCDr has it right. When I receive the new front sight I am hoping the problem to be solved.

[50target]

Working through issues with a gun is how some folks come up with nice shooters. Many folks get something they know nothing about and get frustrated and get rid of it. It takes patience and thought to get a satisfactory end. You're almost there. When I can buy the Meister 25-20 so cheap, no need to cast. In my2520 and the Meister .
Bullet, 6.5 grains of IMR 4227 is a mild accurate load. Use Rem small pistol primers for best results, go to 8.0 gr of same powder shoots well. The rifle when you got it was never going to be more than a shooter..........ever! Good choice to reline. You'll really like that little round. Visit the MarlinOwners Forum in reloading section in the stickies at top of page for help with loads. Enjoy the new life in that old girl. I have that caliber in single shot, lever and pump and enjoy them all.
Bob

[Zingger]

8.0 grains of 4227 was one of the loads I have been trying. I have been running the 3.4 grains of trailboss. They are accuracy, just poi and poa are off. With hope, my Skinner will arrive on Friday, Numrich maybe? I want to thank you 50target for the words of encouragement, they mean a lot at times like these when I am ready to just scrap and go to what I know. I have been using small rifle primers, haven't thought about the small pistol with the 25-20. I have used them in 32-20, but my Marlin classic doesn't seem to care a bit if rifle or pistol primers are used. Thanks again!!! [smilie=s:

[flint45]

Reline to .25-20 and shoot that winchester !!!

[1Hawkeye]

My bad I didn't read all the post before putting in my 2 cents. .25-20 is a fun round Iv'e thought about having a .25-20 barrel made up to go with my stevens 44 in .32-20 but brass availability has kept me from going forward with the project. Maybe if and when starline starts up brass production I'll order a .25 cal blank.

[samari46]

Call Jihn Taylor at Taylor machine and have him do a reline using one of the TJ's liners in the caliber of your choice. Either 25-20 or 32-20. You won't regret it. May have to google him to get the phone number. I'm going to be sending out a low wall in 25020 single shot to get relined to 32-20 and maybe a 22rf BSA martini to get relined to either caliber when I get ready. I buy my rifles to shoot not collect regardless what they cost. Too old and onery that way. If you do decide on the 25-20 get the fast twist barrel will give you more choices for bullets. Same for the 32-20 slightly heavier bullets. TJ's does make fast twist liners but not for the 32-20 but there is a 1x10 for the 30 luger that will work for the 32-20. Frank

[Baltimoreed]

Invest in a set of cheap dies, you have brass and oversized lead bullets and see what the old girl can do. You are on castboolits, for sure someone here has a recipe and would part with 50 pieces of lead. Hit it with bore paste, there might be something left. If that fails then test the waters if a collector might want it, last result reline it to 32-20. I picked up a Colt Anaconda for cheap in .45 lc that would not group no matter what I did. That’s why it was a bargain. A bud gave me a handful of plated lead bullets and they worked. Turned out the gun would only shoot .454 bullets accurately. Good luck on your rifle.

[Zingger]

New front sight from Skinner Sights and my rear from the trapper are showing much improvement. Once I trim the front sight down and get it sighted in fully I will add some pictures. That might not be for a bit though, lots of things going on in the next few weeks.

[Zingger]

After fighting with the 85 grain cast bullet and getting it to be accurate, I purchased some 60gr fp Hornady. Loaded them with the accuracy load from the latest Lyman manual and viola! It turned the inaccurate rifle/load into something that wasn't expected! I guess I found my answer. Now just to find a reasonable price on a bunch of those bullets!

[Chev. William]

Zinger,
You said you had it relined to 25-20 (WCF?) so what twist rate did you use in the Liner?
From your last post about finding 60 grain bullets work better than 85 grain bullets it seems you are using a Slow twist liner.
I would really like to know for future planned work.

I have a 1890 Winchester partys kit that I am planning to have made up for .25ACP. John Taylor already relined a "bubba'd" Octagon 1890Win that was shortened to 20 inches before I got it, using a TJ's 1:14 twist barrel for .25ACP.

I already have two Ruger handguns that have been reworked into .25ACP shooters, a Ruger "Single Eight" revolver with a 10-5/8 inch long barrel cut and fitted by Willie Clark and a Ruger Standard Auto MKII pistol that John Taylor cut and fitted A 8-18 inch long :W barrel plus converting the Ruger bolt to CF. Both handguns use a LW 1:9.8 Twist Barrel blank as a Starting point, the revolver was first, then the Pistol was don with the remainder of the same barrel blank. To date both shoot far better than I can (a friend with better eyes can hit a target bull at 100 yards with either handgun while I can hold a 3 inch 'pattern' at 25 yards with my eyes, Standing Off Hand with a one hand hold).

Frustrating getting old.

Chev. William

[Zingger]

Hi Chev!

The liner is a 1:14 Redman. I know very little (still) about the nuances of the 25-20, but the heaviest I would imagine it to stabilize for cast would be a 70 grain pill. I might be mistaken and if so, please correct. TJ's makes their liners in a 1:13, which should stabilize the heavies a bit better. For jacketed bullets, my 1:14 is awesome behind the 13 grains. Pieces of clay pigeons at 50 yds offhand. I am still cutting the sights back to the load (had to replace the front with a Skinner and the rear with a 94) but I feel confident if there were a pest in the backyard it would be history.
Zingger.

[Chev. William]

Thank you for that information, I am planning to use bullets from (Minimum) 35 grain to about (maximum) 67 Grain in both Cast and J-word in the completed 1890 conversion 'Carbine' ( it is about 20" barrel length; so is short for a Rifle).
.25ACP and .22LR are close in maximum rated PMAX MAP at 25,000psi vs 23,000psi per SAAMI and CIP listings.
That is about 8% difference and SAAMI indicates a 10% tolerance on MAP Pmax for Production factory Loaded Ammo.

Obviously, I wil start with some Factory Loads to 'proof' the finished rifle.

Chev. William