Cap and ball flame cutting

[CeeHoo]

Over the years there has been a lot of discussion about revolver top strap flame cutting in smokeless magnum loads. Usually shooters are advised to avoid combination of light bullets and max. loads of slow burning powder. I've seen far less discussion about black powder loads and I have thought this to be because of its lower pressure not capable cause such a bead blasting effect.

Yesterday I was again at range with my still fairly new Uberti Walker. Its round count is now 84. I've only fired "mild target loads" of 30 grains (27 grains actually if weighed by scale) of Swiss FFG powder and round balls. However, to get the ball closer the chamber mouth I have topped the powder charge with another 30 grains of semolina. This load is very accurate and has never dropped the rammer. However, after 54 rounds I noticed some cutting at the arbor and now after 84 it's becoming more like a groove.

Like all cutting, I suppose this to become self-limiting at some point but still it is surprising to see the cut developing so fast. I can only speculate that it's the semolina that does the blasting job.

244960 244961

[john.k]

Its worth considering that all blackpowder contains silica in the wood ash,and any grain filler is very likely to have a fair bit of field dust in it.......just watch a harvester working in a cloud of dust......Again,all plant matter contains silica........Incidentally,my brother has a S&W target revolver thats never had more than 3 grains of Bulleye in a case,and the top strap is very noticably cut and deeply eroded by the blast.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Had the same with my first Ruger "Old Army". The frame is cut half through at the cylinder gap. Mind, I estimate at least 45,000 rounds have been fired.

[TheOutlawKid]

Hmm...maybe change from filler to felt wads to take up space. May help with the "bead blast" issue. The felt wads can be dry or lubed.

[45 Dragoon]

Not sure about the Walkers but the Armys /Navys and subsequent open top revolvers had a "gas ring" cut into the arbor. It is about .020" deep and is about a 1/4" wide and designed to allow fouling to bypass the cyl/arbor intersection. I'd say yours is on its way to making its own gas ring!! Nothing to worry about.
The "cutting" may be deminished somewhat if the barrel/cyl clearance is held to .0025-.003". This would require you to take care of the "too short" arbor problem which should be done anyway. That procedure will allow you to have the "same" revolver each time you reassemble it.

Mike

[CeeHoo]

Thanks for the tips, gentlemen.

Yes, I've considered replacing semolina with felt wads. However, finding thick felt, especially made of 100% wool, has been difficult for me so far. To replace "30 grains" of filler would require several wads anyway. I wonder if wads cut from undyed veg tanned hide could work or would this material cause extra wear to rifling? For what it's worth, tanned leather tends to dull cutting tools surprisingly fast.

I have not been able to get the B/C gap of this revolver smaller than 0.006" even though the arbor is too short. Have I not just punched heavily enough? I've seen some videos where they tap the wedge very lightly and still get the barrel rear touching the cylinder.

[charlie b]

Try Buffalo Arms for wads. They have quite a few different types. You might even look at .410 shotgun wads.

[45 Dragoon]

CeeHoo, yes, you'r not pushing hard enough. I wouldn't worry about it untill you fix the arbor problem. The two assemblies move against each other or at different rates any way. When the arbor is solidly held against the barrel assy under tension, the 2 assemblies act as one assembly, and the barrel/cylinder clearance will be the same.

Mike

[TheOutlawKid]

Ceehoo...pure felt can be purchased from durofelt. They supply just about every DIY wool wad maker on the forums. Its inexpensive and hard pure felt in many thickness options

[dondiego]

Does Durofelt ship to Finland?

[arcticap]

Does Durofelt ship to Finland?

You would need to contact them.
Their order form page indicates that they do ship to some foreign countries.

"Overseas orders require payment in U.S. dollars and will be charged extra for airfreight.
Customers will also be responsible for all applicable customs duty in their country."--->>> http://www.durofelt.com/form.html

http://durofelt.com

Clicking on their blinking mailbox icon indicates that they can be emailed at:--->>> Durofelt@att.net <Durofelt@att.net>

[CeeHoo]

They would probably ship but here's some felt that I found locally. According to description this felt is stiff, 100% wool and 8mm thick, apparently of Russian origin. Price is 15 € per 50x40cm. Ordered "some"...at random. :veryconfu

https://huopalandia.fi/villapohjalliset/paksu-villahuopa.html

[Fly]

Another reason Remington revolvers rule (wink).

Fly

[Fly]

CeeHoo Durofelt is run buy a lady that has her shop at her home. Great & nice lady. I would contact her & I,m sure she would do that for you.
The only problem is you need to find out how much you want. Then you need to figure what the cost of shipping to your door. She works with
the black powder shooters very well.

Fly

[CeeHoo]

Another reason Remington revolvers rule (wink).

Fly

At 1:12. :bigsmyl2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzs3xYeTERc

[CeeHoo]

Here's the Walker felt.

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00224/14724839.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00134/14724840.jpg

[dondiego]

Sure looks plenty thick!

[CeeHoo]

A little update. I made a few wads using 12mm punch. Soaked them with parraffin oil / beeswax 55/45 mixture. Should have tried seating them beforehand as in not-so-warm range conditions it was really difficult to get them started. The Uberti loading port is very narrow and the wad needs to be almost flush in order to get it under the rammer. Other than incorrect diameter, the wads work really well.

Now I've done a test wad with 11mm punch but that's almost drop fit. I wonder if it matters? I could enlarge the punch with 11.5mm drill bit.

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00611/14766472.jpg

[Markopolo]

the wads look awesome... i would give that drill bit a shot. you dont need it to be super tight fit, but it should be snug. the round ball is what makes your gas seal.

[edp2k]

The groove that is cut in your arbor has "cracks" in it, like they way a dried mud puddle looks.
This is exactly how a flame eroded rifle throat looks.
Therefore I don't believe that the groove was caused by the semolina, it was caused
by very hot high pressure gasses from ignition and firing the BP itself.

I predict that the wads will not stop the erosion.
One thing that may help is slathering up that area of the gun and arbor with a thick grease or BP type lube.
Something like SPG or a home made mix of 50/50 beeswax and olive oil.
It take a lot of energy to do a phase change (i.e. melt or vaporize the greese) and that may
protect or slow down the expansion of the groove.

[charlie b]

I can't say how many rounds I fired through my Remington, but, it was thousands. The flame cutting happened, but, it seemed to reach a point and then not progress much more. Same with my smokeless revolvers.

I would stay with the felt wads if you need some filler. I have always disliked using fillers. My Remmy was loaded with enough powder so the ball was near the mouth of the chamber.

[LAGS]

I too would suspect the Semolina filler is contributing to most of your cutting.
I watched a show on how they made Semolina Pasta.
They said that with Semolina Flour they had to use Special Hardened Pressing / Extrusion Dies because the grain is so abrasive that it wore out regular steel dies quickly.
And that would be with a Damp mixture.
So I would think the dry Semolina would be working like sand or bead blasting when it comes out under pressure

[bigted]

All my Colt style revolvers have been flame cut on the arbor. Have not shot my navy Remmy enough yet to see how it gets cut.

I have an old brasser remmy that the cylinder pin has been flame cut but this old mule has seen some hard times from yours truly.

So here is something to contemplate ... the old ORIGINAL revolvers were not fired nearly as much as we do today. Shooting for fun was not a thing generally. Lotza carrying and hardly any shootin. Mostly damage from not cleaning and lubing them rather then shooting damage.

[Winger Ed.]

I don't shoot revolvers much any more, and no open tops.
But when I saw a S&W 586 getting the cut way before I though it should,
I considered gluing a small strip of a 2-4 thousandths feeler gauge under the top strap over the cut with JB weld.

It would get cut too, but I could change it out and protect the frame.


I'd think the cutting on the arbor will slow down the same way it gets harder and harder-
until you reach the half way point cutting through a solid cylinder with a hacksaw.

[CeeHoo]

Finally had a chance to try 11.5mm (.453") wads. They worked fine and it was possible press them against the powder with brass dowel and moderate force. Interestingly, when ramming balls home it was necessary to keep the rammer down a while to let trapped air to escape. I had two balls plopping up after raising the rammer too quickly. I don't think it was due to undesized balls. Mine are from Lee .457" mold and measure .456-458". Chamber mouths shave them pretty good and these two plopped balls below only measure .448". It seems Uberti chambers can be really tight.

As to gas cutting, round count is still too low to tell whether wads vs. semolina make a difference.

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00300/14802344.jpg

[indian joe]

Thanks for the tips, gentlemen.

Yes, I've considered replacing semolina with felt wads. However, finding thick felt, especially made of 100% wool, has been difficult for me so far. To replace "30 grains" of filler would require several wads anyway. I wonder if wads cut from undyed veg tanned hide could work or would this material cause extra wear to rifling? For what it's worth, tanned leather tends to dull cutting tools surprisingly fast.

I have not been able to get the B/C gap of this revolver smaller than 0.006" even though the arbor is too short. Have I not just punched heavily enough? I've seen some videos where they tap the wedge very lightly and still get the barrel rear touching the cylinder.

Its a Walker ----fill it up mate!! 60 grains of the good black stuff and a wad - we make the wad from egg carton material soaked in melted boolit lube
You might loose a little accuracy (until you get the load worked out) but if you shooting at a club you will gain a crowd of onlookers - nothing like a fully loaded walker for spectator value.