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View Full Version : LEE 7mm 130g Soupcan vs. LEE 8mm 170RN Penetration w/ light Bullseye



8mmFan
07-08-2019, 10:48 PM
Today we completed a penetration test on dry pine boards that were sandwiched one behind the other and held together with workshop clamps. The shots were fired at appx. 10 yards.

The 8mm LEE 170g RN was fired from a 8x57 Yugo Mauser with a 23.5” barrel. The 7mm LEE 130g Soupcan was fired from a Ruger 7x57 with (I believe) a 22” barrel. All bullets were water quenched.

8 shots were fired. ALL cartridges — 7x57 and 8x57 — consisted of 2.5g of Bullseye and a cci primer. “Cat Sneeze” - type loads.

There were 6 shots fired with the 8x57, half with copper gas checks, half with aluminum.

There were only 2 shots fired with the 7x57, both with copper gas checks. We stopped at two, because they completely penetrated all the boards and can’t immediately be recovered so we didn’t waste any more cartridges.

There was appx. 4.5” of board-thickness in total, consisting of six .75” thick boards clamped together as described above. As I said, the range was approximately 10 yards.

Of the six 8x57 loads fired, the deepest penetration was exactly 3”, measured from the front of the first board to where the bullet tip penetrated the deepest. The shallowest was 2.75”. There was NO bullet deformation on any of the bullets except one, which took on a “bulbous” shape from the bullet tip to about 1/3 back. ALL COPPER GAS CHECKS STAYED ON THE BULLET; ALL ALUMINUM GAS CHECKS CAME OFF ALONG THE TRAIL OF THE BULLET. All gas checks showed rifling consistent with that of the bullet.

The 7x57 bullets were fired next. The first COMPLETELY penetrated all six boards and went out the back, landing in the very wet earth somewhere in back of the target. The second bullet also completely penetrated the target, landed in the earth, and burrowed a hole in the wet dirt for AT LEAST 11 inches. We stopped digging for it and will look for it later this week with a metal detector.

My conclusions for my own personal use:
A) The LEE 7mm 130g Soupcan obviously out-penetrates the LEE 8mm 170g RN using identical 2.5g charges of Bullseye.
B) I was VERY surprised by the power and penetration of the Soupcan. This is the first time I have ever cast or fired it. I can make no observation as to accuracy as the range was too short.
C) I was also surprised at the hardness of the 8mm bullets. Only 1 of 6 showed any deformation whatsoever other than rifling.
D) I have always suspected that copper gas checks stay on better than aluminum due to the loose fit of aluminum experienced during the sizing process. This test seems to confirm that, at least for this individual 8mm bullet. I didn’t recover the 7mm bullets that both had copper gas checks but I think I’ll be able to, using a metal detector, and then we’ll see how those checks held.
E) All but one shot was fired by my 10-year old son. He absolutely enjoyed the experience. The only point here is that, although these shots fired exhibited decent penetration on pine boards, albeit at a very short distance, the recoil is quite pleasant.
F) At this point, I will be really hard-pressed to use these bullets for deer hunting. Even if I can get good accuracy and speed witht them, say 2000+ fps, I’d have a real fear of them just “pencilling through” a deer and not expanding. Although they’d probably be just fine for breaking a shoulder or a spine, I usually like to be able to shoot for the heart-lung area on deer, and I’d be afraid of these bullets not expanding with that type of shot.

All of the above is shared simply for the edification and use of anyone who might find it useful.

8mmFan

Hardcast416taylor
07-10-2019, 12:27 PM
Try using an 50/50 + Tin alloy and not water quench. You will get some decent expansion and not the `pencil effect` you mention.Robert

RED BEAR
07-10-2019, 05:47 PM
I agree soften up your alloy are you water quenching? For hunting i wouldn't discount either gun as both are more than capable of taking deer easily. With a softer bullet and gas checked these should be just the ticket. Just try some out for accuracy. Not sure why you are using bulls eye.

8mmFan
07-10-2019, 10:23 PM
Thanks, guys. I’ll make some softer bullets and give it a shot.

RED BEAR, I do water quench every bullet I cast. I’ll make some 50/50 bullets and air cool them and see what happens. The reason these are loaded with Bullseye is for light-kicking loads for my young sons to shoot the big rifles with. They really enjoy cat-sneeze loads and they are becoming pretty decent little riflemen with the practice they get from them.

Thanks!

8mmFan

bmortell
07-10-2019, 10:53 PM
for reference I hit a deer with .30 lee 170 made of 2.4% antimony 1.5% tin air cooled, mv was 1750fps deer was at 100yds so maybe in the 1500s impact, it expanded slightly, bulged a bit, I recovered it because it went through lengthwise angled and hit the thigh bone at the end. usually people don't recover them so its a pretty good example. going from 1500 to 2k makes a huge difference for expansion. but we have one reference point there.

in my testing with soaked phone books and water similar alloys seem to fully big wide mushroom at around 1800 and above that would start fragmenting, so maybe that gives you something to work off of. I don't know if its really what you were going for but wood is very different material as it compresses. water based things or deers expand bullets because its not compressible, well on earth anyway, but ya you can definitely expand lead rifle bullets. just figure out what shoots good at hunting speeds and drop mv by 150fps to simulate drag and shoot a few water jugs lined up with some old cloth and towels behind it.

MT Gianni
07-11-2019, 05:40 PM
Both have a similar bore to weight ratio. Case capacity in the 7mm is all over. I would compare the grains of water held in each case. [leave primed after shot fill with water and weigh it in grains]. I suspect the smaller capacity of the 7x57 case is giving you a more efficient burn. I have heard of almost 4 gr difference in brands of 7x57 cases and most I measured are 3-4 gr less capacity than 8x57.

8mmFan
07-11-2019, 09:18 PM
The last follow up to the original thread...

I got out the metal detector and found one of the original two LEE 7mm Soupcan bullets. It wasnt’ hard to do as it had gone through the boards and cut a trench and then burrowed further into the ground. The metal detector just confirmed where something was burrowed in the ground and that made digging it out easier.

The 7mm Soupcan DID lose its copper gas check, and it DID mushroom. Whether the mushroom happened as it passed through the boards, or happened during contract with the grass and dirt, is impossible to say. I can barely see evidence of rifling on one side of the slug only. The recovered boolit weighs 120.6 grains, while its unfired mate in the picture weighs 131.5 grains, including the copper gas check.

Here are a couple of pics.

245101

245102

8mmFan

lar45
07-11-2019, 11:13 PM
Just reviewed your pictures, and I only have one important question.
What lube are you using?

DonH
07-12-2019, 02:22 PM
Don't know what alloy your bullets were cast from but in my experience COWW water quenched is around 20-21bhn, equivalent to linotype. You would get little to no expansion.

8mmFan
07-12-2019, 03:56 PM
Lar45, I’ve always only used Lee Liquid Alox, tumble lubed, on all bullets.

DonH, it’s hard to say what the alloy is, as I just kind of toss in what I’ve got into the pot. I DO have some segregated pure lead around, as well as some segregated linotype, so maybe someday I will make a mix out of those.

8mmFan