12 Gauge .735 Round Ball Results

[Adam604]

Hi Folks,

Adam604 here again,

I had some time over the weekend to load up some .735 round ball loads.

Well, after reading some more and reading your reply's I decided to load up some rounds and give them a go.

Loads that I am trying this time:

Load #1:
Federal target hull
Federal 209A Primers
23 Grains Unique
Federal 12S3 wads (pink)
20 gauge card wad
7/8 oz. Lee Key Drive Slug
Crimp with a 8 segment fold

Load #2
Winchester hull (target hull)
Federal 209A primer
22.9 grains of UNIQUE (2.5cc LEE scoop)
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to .2 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball Lee 1.3 cc scoop
.732 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN) with a coating LEE alox
8 segment Star crimp

Load #3
Active 12 gauge hull
Federal 209A primer
32.4 grains of BLUEDOT (2.8cc LEE scoop)
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to .2 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball Lee 1.3 cc scoop
.732 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN) with a coating LEE alox
8 segment Star crimp

I made a wad trim tool. I trimmed a deprimed used 12 gauge hull to height so that when I pushed in a Federal wad 12S3 and held it in place with a wood dowel plug I could use a box cutter to trim to the right length. They come out trimmed very neatly and repeatable. It works pretty good and I can trim several of them per minute.

I used a Lee Load All press for all this. ( 2ND time use, lots quicker than my Lee Loader)

After I got to the range and set up to shoot from a bench rest I checked all of my loads. Some of the loads were starting to open up the crimp. I think the Federal wad (12S3) may be a bit too long with a .735 ball

I shot from a bench rest with a sandbag firm under the Mossberg butt and the front rest adjusted to place the scope cross hairs on target. Pulled the butt firmly into my shoulder and pulled down and back on the pump slide. Sunny and no wind.

The scope is set for shooting 7/8 oz LEE slugs at 50 yards.

I test fired load #2 and #3 with a screw in cylinder choke tube first

Recoil for load #2 was heaver than load #1 , no ejection problems, no indications of overpressure on the hull or primer pocket.

Recoil for load #3 was heaver than load #1 & 2 but not as much as factory slugs , no ejection problems, no indications of overpressure on the hull or primer pocket.

I had bought 2 chokes for my shotgun, a screw in cylinder choke and a screw in rifled choke tube (both Browning)

I tested the Lee 7/8 oz slug through three choke tubes. Cylinder choke, Improved Cylinder and a screw in rifled choke tube

I tested Load #2 round ball through two choke tubes. Cylinder choke, screw in rifled choke tube

I tested Load #3 round ball through the screw in rifled choke tube (I'll need to use a strap wrench to remove the rifled choke it was really torqued down by the round balls) I was not able to remove the rifled choke tube at the range to test the Cylinder choke tube.

RESULTS: 3-5 SHOTS EACH CHOKE


LEE 7/8 OZ SLUG 50 YARDS

Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, spread about 7 inches

Improved Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, 1 1/2 inches left, 2 inches high, Spread 2 1/2 inches

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 50 yards, 5 inches left, 2 inches high, Spread 2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 100 yards, 5 inches left , 5 inches low, spread 8 inches (9 shots)

.735 Round Ball Load #2

Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, 2 inches right, 4 inches low, Spread 3 1/2 inches (5 shots)

Improved Cylinder choke:
The shots impacted about point of aim at 50 yards, .5 inches right, 4 inches low, Spread 3 1/2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 50 yards, .5 inches right , 4 inches low, Spread 2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 100 yards, .5 inches right , 16 inches low, Spread 3 inches (5 shots)

.735 Round Ball Load #3 (stuck choke tube rifle choke only)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 50 yards, .5 inches right , 4 inches low, Spread 2 inches (5 shots)

Screw in rifled choke tube:
The shots impacted near point of aim at 100 yards, 4 inches right , 12 inches low, spread 1.5 inches (5 shots)

The rifled choke really improved the groups at both 50 and 100 yards with the round ball. The Lee slug did not shoot as well as the naked .735 round ball!

I will do some more load development and see what happens.

Adam604

[Heavy lead]

Very interested in this. I have a Reminton 11-87 with a fully rifled barrel and am currently shooting a Lyman 525 grain pellet in a WAA114 wad in a Federal Gold Medal target hull with Fed 209a primer and 39 grains of Longshot, I'm chronographing just about 1600 fps, 50 yard accuracy is dead on and a 1 to 2 inch group, 100 yards drops only 3 inches, but in opens to a 5 inch group. Those roundball loads look real promising. Where did you get the data? And how much does that roundball weigh? I'm real interested in this, please let us know. Oh I weigh my charged and load them on a Lee LoadAll too. I only use my Mecs for bird shot.

[Adam604]

Hi,

.735 Lyman Round ball Weight cast with wheel weights lead water dropped
~ 18 BHN

Measured a lot of them with calipers .732 to .7345

Weight 575-578 grains (1 5/16 oz)

Load data:

Tricky.. from my reading you can replace shot with a equal or less weight of single round ball or slug and pressure will be less than the pressure generated by the load of shot.

I'm backing off of max values of powder by several grains for my starting loads.

also from my reading.. wad contribution to pressure changes is less than generally thought. Modern plastic wads all have near the same performance of gas sealing.. the major change from old style wads.

Primers.. My future loads will be using different primers. Remington 209A primers generate lower pressure than other common shotgun primers with little loss of velocity. Possibly I may try using Winchester 209ML primers for even lower pressure loads.


Adam604

[longbow]

Adam:

Just a comment on the wads. Again, I can't say positively since I don't have pressure testing equipment but from my book references, wads are a little trickier that just the sealing issue.

Most wads have a cushion leg and some are very soft while others are stiff. The initial give of the cushion reduces breech pressure especially with faster powders. I don't have all the info at hand but can look it up. With some recipes pressures can rise substantially with a change from soft to stiff wad.

What I have noticed is that with larger payloads and slower powders this seem less of an issue. I think partly because with large payloads of shot and large charges of slow powder there is little room for a cushion leg.

I wish I had the equipment to run tests but...

Personally I am inclined to lean towards the slower powders for slugs and will err on the side of caution.

I don't think you can go too far wrong using shot data for an equal weight slug as long as it isn't grossly oversized. However, it seems that many slug loads are pushing the pressure boundaries so I check several sources to get a feel for what any component changes might do to pressures. Often a single source may only list one recipe for a hull where another source may use a different primer or wad in the same hull.

If in doubt don't do it.

Longbow

[longbow]

Heavy Lead:

The 0.735" RB loads I am using were based on the Precision Rifle "Piledriver" load data. It was a full bore solid lead slug of 610 grs. The RB weighs approx. 580 grs.

They listed several charges of Blue Dot up to 44 grs. @ 12,000 PSI.

So far I have not exceeded 38 grs. of Blue Dot with the 0.735" RB. I have not chronographed it yet so don't know velocity but recoil was stout! It gave approx. 2" groups at 50 yards from a fully rifled bore @ 1:38" twist. I think the gun would do better but I was being battered senseless by recoil so not holding as well as I might.

I have been told that IMR 4756 is a better choice for powder but so far have been unable to get any where I am.

Longbow

[bobk]

Longbow,
Is it legal for me to mail you a pound or two of 4756? It's available here readily, and I would like to contribute to your continued experimentation.

Bob K

[Scrounger]

Try 2400 or WW296 or Lil Gun

[longbow]

bobk:

I appreciate the offer but for one I think the 49th parallel (the thing that separates Canada and the US) while only a line on a map represents a huge barrier in other respects.

I can probably order some 4756 in Canada if I pay the hazmat fee. I know it is available in larger cities like Calgary or Vancouver. I usually go to Clark's Allsports in Colville Washington to pick up reloading supplies because it is closer than anything here. They will order in but I have to make pre-arrangements which I just haven't got to yet.

I live in a small town not remote but not any larger cities closer than 3 hours and they aren't big so selection is limited.

All in all I have been finding that Blue Dot works pretty well. It is just that I have been told by a fellow with lots more experience than I have that 4756 is a better powder for slugs.

Scrounger:

I may have seen some load recipes using 2400 but I am pretty sure I have never seen slug loads using WW296 or Lil Gun. I am not one to experiment too far from proven recipes if I don't have a reliable source for loads. Rifles and handguns generally let you know when you are pushing them. Shotguns not so much.

If you have load data for shot or slug I would be interested.

Longbow

[yondering]

I may have seen some load recipes using 2400 but I am pretty sure I have never seen slug loads using WW296 or Lil Gun. I am not one to experiment too far from proven recipes if I don't have a reliable source for loads. Rifles and handguns generally let you know when you are pushing them. Shotguns not so much.

If you have load data for shot or slug I would be interested.

Longbow

I'd also be interested in seeing some load data for 4756 in slug loads. I've found it on the Hodgdon website for normal trap and game loads, but no heavy slug loads that could be used to drive a round ball fast like Blue Dot.

[Mayor]

Longbow

I am very interested in your research/experimentation!
I have lamented greatly on the use of the .735 RB. My thoughts were that it would be too large for the 12 gauge bore? I have started and stopped numerous times in loading it in magtech brass cases with Black Powder as it is a good fit in the brass case and with proper wad height a slight roll crimp holds it in the brass case (looks awesome also). I have an old Remington side cocker single barrel with a Lyman 17A front sight and a peep tang mounted in the rear. Should make a decent 100 yard Squirrel gun! I don't remember what the bore slugged to but it seemed like the .735 would be too tight. You have renewed my interest in this project again. Obvoiusly the .72? nominal bore size and the .735 seem to do OK.......especially since you are shooting it through a choke. If anyone has any thoughts and can help reassure me I would be glad to share my data also (once I get the cajones to shoot it).

Thanks
Mayor

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I origonally went with the .685 RB to have the option of just dumping the shot out of a standard Winchester 12 gauge load. This eliminated the need to have any reloading materials and Winchester is readily available here (Peru). The need was/is for the elimination of vicious LARGE crocks out on the Amazon tributaries. Standard slugs just bounce off the thick neck armor. I have for my own personal use expanded into other items of interest.
Yea... that RB looks impressive sitting atop a BIG brass cartridge.

If you decide to branch off into heavy charges of black powder(120+) USE the brass cartriges as black (2F) destroys plastics cases. But if you are looking to "shoot once and not reload it" then plastic is fine. 2F was the ORIGONAL propellant for RB. It still works ! The smoke cloud of 135 grains 2F on a still day will give new meaning to "shoot and move"..

Using a .685 RB + wads does give some versitility... but you can accomplish the same using a .735 ball .... just trim the wad below full bore... Wads can cause SERIOUS PRESSURE spikes. Be carefull as different wads are not all the same and modifying wads as I do REQUIRES backing off loads and advancing slowly. I have experimented with all sorts of wads and each has potential in different applications and especially availability of materials.

Longbow has a good handle on FULL BORE RB. I have learned much reading here and recommend you research the other threads here in the Shotgun Casting area.

[Dixie Slugs]

When I was working oversea, I saw some interesting Russian shotshells with hard round balls.
The load had two hard nitro looking wads that were center punched with the ball in betweeen the wads. It appeared that the wads help keep the ball aligned in the center of the bore??????
I do think that there is a great deal of potential in a roundball load.....just like it was when the Brits used then in Afica/India.
Now....there is some mis understandin about ball that are oversize for the bore. Since the edge of the ball is on a radius, they will swage down.....even a hard ball. a good rulle of the thunb is to have a ball no larger that .004" (or .002" per side) than the tightest point in the barrel. The ideal would be a cylinder barrel.
I also think the Russian idea of helping ceneter to ball on the bore is interesting indeed.
Regards, James

[Adam604]

Hi Folks,

Adam604 again,

Just a quick note and a caution....

I fired off the last 3 rounds of the .735 round ball loaded with Unique, I had a round that would not eject! I had to demount the barrel to tap the empty hull out. No ejector claw signs on the base, just would not pull it out.

The empty hull re- chambered with difficulty but ejected OK.

So, don't use my load data for loading round ball with Unique.

Adam604

[missionary5155]

Adan604 How much Unique was that ? Something sure does not sound right. What are you using to charge the cases.. I visually inspect all my hulls when using unique and regularly fire 30-32 grains unique with RB 6.85 and have never had this happen.

[longbow]

Mayor:

I have not shot the 0.735" RB's through any form of choke ~ cylinder bore only.

I was quite hesitant about shooting them to begin with but I used a piece of round bar and mallet to try one in the bore to see how much force it took to swage it. It really didn't take much so I felt it was safe to shoot. It swaged very easily and as James says being a round ball there is not much there to swage at 0.005" to 0.006" over bore size.

Also, I compared loads with full bore heavier cylindrical slugs and felt they would take as much or more pressure to swage the full bore slugs due to larger contact surface.

I also used a slow powder and less than listed as max. for a full bore slug about 40 grs. heavier.

Had I hoticed any significant effort to swage the ball into the forcing cone I would not have continued. Adam said very much the same in that he also ran one through the barrel and noticed how little force it took.

Having said all that I would have preferred a ball of sat 0.730" to 0.732", there just weren't any moulds available. Even if there were I would not shoot these through a choke of any sort.

My feeling is that the ball or ball/shotcup combo should not be more than 0.003" max. over the choke constriction. I have a 0.715" mould I wanted to use in my BPS slug barrel with I/C choke but unfortunately my I/C choke is 0.711" and the ball casts 0.716" ~ too big for my liking. BPI says it should be okay but swaging 0.005" through a choke doesn't sound good to me. I will be honing a few thou out of the choke.

I make the exception with the 0.735" ball as it is being swaged as pressure builds and in the thickest part of the barrel. Again, my feeling is that a full bore slug has more contact area and so will take as much or more pressure to swage into rifling in a rifled bore. My opinion and not based on pressure tests so far.

Missionary has a good write up on his use of 0.685" RB in the shotcup somewhere in this forum if you search. He has recommended (correct me if I am wrong missionary) that the ball shotcup combo should not be over 0.003" larger than the tightest constriction in the barrel. Good advice especially with regards to chokes.

I have done much the same with 0.690 RB in a shotcup. They were a little tighter than the 0.003" recommended by missionary and I found I got a lot of sheared petals when shot through my I/C choke. They gave better performance out of cylinder bore.

By the way, the 0.735" RB's I have shot were ACWW casting to 0.736" and shot through a cylinder bore at 0.729" and rifled bore at 0.727" groove. No problems in either, no sticky extraction or other pressure signs. I would not go any larger though!

I have only loaded these over hard card wads with a plastic gas seal and using Blue Dot so far.

As for 4756, I do have some loading data passed to me by someone else. I trust his load development and he has had some of his loads pressure tested. However, I have not loaded any 4756 yet so cannot speak from personal experience as to safety or performance.

If I were to buy another mould right now it would be the double cavity 0.678" RCBS. Small enough to fit through any full choke except extra full turkey choke so safe that way and just the right size to fit most shotcups. However, I have four large ball moulds now so am not buying any more just yet.

Longbow

[Adam604]

missionary5155,

Here is the load data for the Load in question

Load info for Unique Round Ball

Load #2
Winchester hull (target hull)
Federal 209A primer
22.9 grains of UNIQUE (2.5cc LEE scoop)
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to .2 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball Lee 1.3 cc scoop
.735 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN) with a coating LEE alox weight 575-578 grains measured size .732 to .7345
8 segment Star crimp

This is the load that I had problems with.

I inspected the remainder of the once fired hulls that I used to supply hulls for this load and found several that had "Loose Bases", that is that I could wiggle the brass base on the plastic hull, a couple would even turn! I did not know to inspect for this problem and may have just used hulls that should not have been used.

In the future I will check the brass for "fit" or "tightness"

This load did have a bit less recoil than the Blue Dot loads and I did not expect to see any problems with this amount of Unique (23 grains). I also expected to be able to load Unique safely to as high as 30 Grains.

Adam604

[longbow]

Adam:

Re-reading this thread I must have skipped a groove or two. Did we have another thread going too?

Anyway, I picked up part of this but hadn't noticed your accuracy results. Pretty good for rifled choke tube ~ pretty good by any standard actually.

My "goal" has been to create a modern Paradox gun by using a rifled choke tube but I felt that the typical 1:38" or faster twist would be too much for a round ball to pick up when whisling through at top velocity. I was thinking that something more like 1:70" to 1:100" would be more suitable and unlikely to cause the ball to strip in the rifling. You seem to have proved that unnecessary.

Maybe I don't need a custom slow twist choke tube! If I could get consistent accuracy of 4" or better at 100 yards I'd be happy.

Do you know what twist the rifling is?

Did you chronograph the loads (curious about velocity)?

Thanks,
Longbow

[Adam604]

sheared petals,

I've picked up most of my fired wads when shooting the LEE 7/8 oz slug that I shoot with the Federal 12S3 wad. I have noticed quite a few have sheared wad petals.

I am going to clean up the range next time of all pink wads (mostly mine I think) and pick up each one to see what is going on with them.

The last time I shot them I used 3 chokes: Cylinder, Improved Cylinder, and Rifled.

I think I saw something new with the Cylinder Choke, some of the petals were bent backwards.. My cylinder choke measures .735" and the barrel is .7295"... which is the same size as my Improved Cylinder choke..

I am thinking that my LEE slug does not have a firm enough base or base support and is wobbling down the barrel causing the sheared petals. I am going to try using a buffer fill under the slug and a firmer underwad to support the slug in the plastic wad cup on my next loads of the Lee Slug

Adam604

[Adam604]

Longbow,

The rifled choke tube I am using is a Browning Rifled Choke tube. It fits my Mossberg and other shotguns. It extends from the barrel about 4 inches and has 4 ports about 1/2 inch from the end. I bought it for about $35 US

One caution about them tho, as Dixie Slug said in on of his messages, "when the slug hits the rifled choke at 1300 fps it really torques it down tight" so make yourself a choke removal wrench ahead of time.

I need to make one now, I planing on using a 2x4 with a 3/4 hole drilled into it then cut the end with the hole bisecting the hole and leaving a 3 or 4 inch piece to use as a clamp that I will drill to use bolts to clamp in on the choke tube. I hope I don't need to make two of them, one for the tube, one for the barrel.

I am surprised by my results at 50 and 100 yards with round ball and the Rifled choke tube. I'm doing as well with my shotgun as I am with my .303 Enfield! And I can see the hole with out using a spotting scope. My last outing I got a 1 1/2 in group at 100 yards, 2 inches at 50 yards!

I am trying a few things on my Mossy tho, I'm using a bit of "Beagleing" tape (aluminum stove flashing tape) to tighten up the fit of the barrel into the receiver and have loosed up the magazine screw to reduce barrel stress.

The Bench rest method I am using is new for me to. I'm using more sandbags to "hold position" of my shotgun so it moves less when I shoot. I am going to make a bit of a change next time and not use my pump as the front rest position, I'll use the magazine tube instead, it doesn't move as much.

I don't own a crono, so I don't know how fast the loads are.

Adam604

[Heavy lead]

OK I ordered the roundball mould, after deer season I'll work up some loads. I really like Longshot in my heavy shot loads, I will start there. Good job Adam, this has got me cranked up, darn thing kicks harder than my Rigby, kind of addicting.
Missionary, man you're like a McGiver there in Peru. That big old brass cased roundball load looks imposing, and you pop crocks with them huh? Like to bring that 11-87 down.

[longbow]

Adam:

I have been using primarily smoothbore single shot cylinder bore (a classic Winchester Cooey) for the bore size 0.735" RB loads and my Browning BPS with smoothbore slug barrel with I/C choke for 0.662"& 0.690" RB's in shotcups. I also borrowed a Remington 870 with 1:38" rifled barrel for the 0.735" RB's.

Whilst getting the crap pounded out of me shooting a variety of slugs I did manage 2" groups at 50 yards with the 0.735" RB out of the rifled barrel. I should have taken more padding to dampen the tendon tearing blows ro my shoulder! I did too much slug shooting from the bench with little recoil protection!

I have not chronographed the loads yet but will. Unfortunately I will be giving back the rifled gun so will be back to smoothbore. My toy budget won't support another gun project now so if I don't make it myself I won't have it for a while.

Since you are getting pretty nice groups with the RB and rifled choke tube I may just give it a try. As I mentioned, I had thought the typical fast twist chokes would be too much for round ball and since the Paradox guns were in the 1:100" twist range which is good for 12 ga. RB I figured if it worked for them then it will work for me.

However, getting a 1:100" twist anything seems near impossible so I was getting set to make a small rifling bench and try my hand at a rifled choke tube of 1:70" to 1:100". 4140 should be a good material and is readily available.

A commercial choke tube is a lot less work though, not too expensive and it seems to be working well for you. I guess my only fear with this is the torquing down. A slower twist would not be so bad. It doesn't matter as long as it doesn't eventually strip the threads. I'd have to figure that even a hefty sabot slug would do the same but maybe the smaller diameter slug doesn't produce the same torque as full bore.

If I do get around to making a choke tube I would plan on a Cutts Compensator style using large diameter threads and a large contact shoulder.

Longbow

[Adam604]

Longbow,

I'm using a Pachmayr Decelerator Slip on pad, Man, what a improvement in comfort.
Before I was Black & Blue after every trip to the range. (I also have them on my .303 Enfield and 7.62x54R Mosin Nagant , man those steel butts would beat the heck out of me shooting milspec bullets)

I've also thought of building a Rifling cutting bench, but I was going to use a Turkey choke tube for my rifling job. I was thinking of using a bit of hacksaw blade for the cutter


Adam604

[missionary5155]

It has been many years since I have seen a croc on a tributary... I did my origonal RB "experiments" mainly to help some "river rats" (missionaries on the rivers) have an easy to make option for LARGE crocks that tend to eat anything to close to the waters edge. Once a croc gets over 20 feet their neck scales are thick enough that a 12 gauge slug does not penetrate... the impact may sort of stun them.. but I do not think a crocs "information processor" is fast enough to know. I do know a 25 footer took two Forster type slugs at less than 5 feet fired straight down hitting the same spot (about 2 minutes apart... time needed to circle again). That beast was still swimmimg normal and circling to come back again. A rapid retreat was deemed advisable by the village pastor piloting the boat.
Where I live is 8000+ in southern Peru. High Andes valley surrounded by 19-20,000+ foot mountains. No crocs.. no one ton critters.. just some agressive wild dog packs up in the hills who stay away from the 2 wheeling 12 bore armed bird hunter.
Once you have your RB load selected... always keep one in your pocket.. It will penetrate 2 feet of cactus base and the huge black monster behind it. Gotta find me an engine block I can punch at 10 feet...

[Echo]

"I appreciate the offer but for one I think the 49th parallel (the thing that separates Canada and the US) while only a line on a map represents a huge barrier in other respects."

I say Fifty-Four Forty or Fight! Well, I guess I'm a little late...

[wdsstraw]

Adam604, What is the dia. at the end of your barrel? Mine measures .730, so figure that a .735 ball would be to big to shoot in it. What do you or anyone else think? wdsstraw

[longbow]

I have shot 0.735" round ball through my 0.729" smoothbore with no problems.

I was hesitant at first so used a dowel and mallet to see just how much resistance there was swaging through the forcing cone ~ it only took a gentle tap. There is not much meat to swage around the middle of a round ball.

I took my loads from Precision Rifle's published load data for their full bore 610 gr. solid slug. A round ball even slightly oversize can't be as hard to engrave as a long slug. It is also 30 grs. lighter.

I got good results using hard card wad column in my smoothbore and also in a 0.727" groove rifled Remington 870 (same loads). If I were buying a mould for the rifled barrel I would likely choose bore size to maybe 0.003" over, not the 0.735" ball though it shot well with no pressure signs. I think 0.008" over groove diameter is a bit much but it was not at a max. load.

As long as you have cylinder bore of at least 0.729" you should have no problems just start with a light load of known pressure and work up. If you get sticky extraction you are overdoing it.

It worked for me, YMMV.

Longbow

[ETG]

I need to make one now, I planing on using a 2x4 with a 3/4 hole drilled into it then cut the end with the hole bisecting the hole and leaving a 3 or 4 inch piece to use as a clamp that I will drill to use bolts to clamp in on the choke tube. I hope I don't need to make two of them, one for the tube, one for the barrel.

Sounds like a lot of work. You might want to try a strap wrench (the cloth strap/metal handle not plastic ones). Cheap and you can get two just in case. I use them to remove the barrel on my 50 Ferret.

[Harmon_Greer]

Put some never seeze on the threads of the choke tubes. Anyone try longshot with the round ball?

[jimb16]

A twist rate of 1:72 is all that is required to stabilize a RB. That is the slowest standard twist for BP rifles. I've been loading .72 RBs in my shotguns for years with good results, and have taken several deer with them. I use Blue Dot for my loads and don't bother with the filler. I also use wads for 1 oz. loads since they fit the smaller ball and crimp nicely.

[Harmon_Greer]

has anyone tried longshot with a 735 ball?

Harmon

[turbo1889]

has anyone tried longshot with a 735 ball?

Harmon

Yes, I have. Longshot is not one of my favorite powders by any means due to the fact it becomes highly temperamental when approaching a max load an can pressure spike easily and does not have a nice linear burn rate like other more stable powders.

If you must use Longshot for 0.735" balls I suggest the following charge levels:



3” 7mm thick separate plastic base-wad straight walled hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S0 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 24gr. Min – 28gr. Start – 32gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 26gr. Min – 30gr. Start – 34gr. Max

3” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card

------------- Or for hulls with thinner paper/fiber base wads

------------- Fed. 12S0 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 26gr. Min – 30gr. Start – 34gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 28gr. Min – 32gr. Start – 36gr. Max

2-3/4” Federal Gold Medal One Piece Plastic Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 24gr. Min – 26gr. Start – 30gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 26gr. Min – 28gr. Start – 32gr. Max

2-3/4” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + very thin 12ga. overshot card
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off

------------- Or for hulls with thinner paper/fiber base wads

------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 26gr. Min – 28gr. Start – 32gr. Max
------ Any Standard 209 Primer = 28gr. Min – 30gr. Start – 34gr. Max

2-3/4” Remington STS, Gun Club, or Economy One Piece Plastic Hulls,
Cold/Fowl Weather Load
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A and 25gr. of Longshot powder


All above listed loads are suggestions only and have been safe and sane in my guns with my loading technique - I cannot guarantee the same will be true for you. These loading suggestions have not been professionally pressure tested. If maximum loads are desired start at the suggested start load and work up slowly in 1/2 grain increments. I do not suggest ever going above the listed max loads due to the fact that Longshot powder has a very dangerous tendency to aggressively and unpredictably pressure spike when approaching maximum pressure. Thus even though the maximum listed loads may still seem like they could be worked up further doing so is strongly discouraged.

Yes, there is a fairly wide safety margin on these loading suggestions. It is there for a very good reason. A thinner safety margin is certainly usable with other more stable powders, but not with this one.

[Harmon_Greer]

what would be a better powder to use?
Blue Dot?
Steel?
2400, 296, 4227?
REL 17?

[Greg5278]

Harmon, depending on the velocity you want, you won't need such slow powders. Blue Dot is a bit slow, the .735" ball will be less than 600 Grains. I use IMR 4756 for loads up to 1450FPS, and IMR 7625 for lighter loads. IMR 4759 could be used for higher power loads up to 1600 FPS or so, but the wad column will have to be shortened. The IMR powders I mentioned will burn cleanly, and do so at low temperatures. Blue Dot can be dirty and leave a good bit of ash at lower chamber pressures.
Greg

[Harmon_Greer]

looking for a safe 1500 fps from a 2 3/4 inch hull.

[turbo1889]

what would be a better powder to use?
Blue Dot?
Steel?
2400, 296, 4227?
REL 17?

Greg has already given you some very good advice about using the IMR powders 4756 and 4759.

I would go with Blue Dot over Longshot any day even though it is dirty. I will usually pick Steel over Blue Dot as well. In fact, due to the fact that the IMR powders in question are usually more difficult for me to obtain locally on a regular basis, Steel powder is usually me go to powder for stuff like this.

Basically it’s an improvement on Blue Dot powder and you can usually substitute it straight across and then maybe even add a pinch or two more in most cases. The two down sides are that Steel absolutely requires a magnum primer unlike Blue Dot or the IMR powders previously mentioned and it doesn't work well for greatly reduced loads like Blue Dot does. For example, if a blue dot load recipe calls for 45 grains of powder you can usually take that all the way down to 30 grains or so to produce low recoil lighter loads and you will still get a decent powder burn without any bloopers. Doesn't work that way with Steel in the same example you would be lucky to get as low as 40 grains without running into burn stability issues.

Where I live there is always plenty of Steel powder on the shelf and plenty of Fed-209A primers so that is usually the combination I go with and scarf up a can of the two IMR powder numbers previously mentioned when ever I get a chance, which unfortunately isn't as often as I would like.

R-17 loads are for if you have a bull barrel gun and are looking for absolute flat out maximum velocity knock your socks off loads.

[Harmon_Greer]

i can get any commercially available powder here.. IMR, Winchester, Hodgdon, Vihta Vhouri , Rex, Ramshot...

I like blue dot, just seems there COULD be something better.

how much steel would you load and with what wad collum?

[turbo1889]

. . . how much steel would you load and with what wad collum?

For using Steel powder for 0.735" balls I suggest the following charge levels:



3” 7mm thick separate plastic base-wad straight walled hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 40gr. Min – 43gr. Start – 50gr. Max

3” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 42gr. Min – 45gr. Start – 50gr. Max

2-3/4” Federal Gold Medal One Piece Plastic Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 38gr. Min – 42gr. Start – 45gr. Max

2-3/4” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + very thin 12ga. overshot card
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off

------------- Or for hulls with thinner paper/fiber base wads

------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A (or) CCI 209M = 40gr. Min – 44gr. Start – 46gr. Max

2-3/4” Remington STS, Gun Club, or Economy One Piece Plastic Hulls,
Cold/Fowl Weather Load
------ Wad Column =
------------- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
------------- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card
------ Fed. 209A and 40gr. of Steel powder


All above listed loads are suggestions only and have been safe and sane in my guns with my loading technique - I cannot guarantee the same will be true for you. These loading suggestions have not been professionally pressure tested. If maximum loads are desired start at the suggested start load and work up slowly in 1/2 grain increments. I do not suggest ever going above the listed max loads.

[Harmon_Greer]

i tried some today.
25.0 grains of IMR 7625
win AA hull
waa 12 wad with petals removed
inverted waa12 gas seal
.735 round ball cast from heat treated wheel weights and lubed with alox
roll crimp at 2.46" oal

ONE HOLE ACCURATE out of my NEF ultra slug gun @50 yds

im gonna push some with 40 grains blue dot,
waa12R wad with petals removed
inverted Waa12 gas seal
Win AA hull
and a roll crimp.

[Red River Rick]

What happens to the group at 100 yds? How was the case extraction?

I'm just curious.

RRR

[Harmon_Greer]

i gotta get to the range to test at 100+ yds, all i have is fifty yds at home.

the cases will slide out of the chamber without the use of the ejector.

I do this to keep from chasing the hulls around. just open slowly and dump them into your hand.

i plan on trying the loads with blue dot soon, ive already shot 50 of these balls and need to cast some more.

[longbow]

I am going to suggest a straight walled hull for heavier loads rather than the Win AA hull. A larger volume hull is a better choce.

Also, while the Ultra Slug Gun is probably heavier than the Rem 870, I found recoil at 38 grs. of Blue Dot "stout".

Longbow

[Harmon_Greer]

i have some federal target hulls, and i need to get some gold medal hulls.

i have hundreds of AA hulls on hand...it was/is my go-to hull.

i plan on getting some 3 inch Fiochi hulls to play with.....and some IMR 4756

[Harmon_Greer]

loaded some full power 2 3/4 loads today

federal plastic universal hull(plastic case, paper basewad)
win 209
44.0 grains Blue Dot
Claybuster 12R wad with petals removed
2.2 cc by volume baby oatmeal cereal
gas seal from fired Win WAA12 wad
a dab of TC bore butter
18 BHN .735 ball
roll crimped at 2.400 OAL

pressure looks moderate..cases fall out of the gun without the use of the ejector...NEF Ultra Slug Gun. case expansion is very slight...less than the original loads fired in the slug gun.

recoil on the other hand was MORE than moderate. in a lighter gun it would be a bit uncomfortable. Recovered wads show no tearing or other signs of failure.

[longbow]

How was accuracy?

What range?

Recoil in the Remington 870 rifled gun I borrowed was indeed "uncomfortable" with 38 grs. of Blue Dot. I shudder to think of upping the load to 44 grs. at least without good shoulder padding.

I am normally shooting a light single shot smoothbore and 36 to 38 grs. of Blue Dot is enough for me!

Longbow

[Harmon_Greer]

I actually would feel comfortable increasing the load by 2 grains in this hull. It is based on lyman 525 data that is low pressure to start with. I plan on testing for accuracy tomorrow and will post the results asap. I just shot one of these out of an 870 police magnum and the recoil was just as bad as federal 1 1/4 oz foster slugs

[Bullet Miser]

Hello Boolit Casters,

Forgive me for my ignorance and noobery...

Since the round ball is already overbore wouldn't it be possible to do without the wad altogether?

I've never cast a bullet before and never reloaded a shotgun shell, so this is all new to me. I've only reloaded .38 special.

But the idea of casting some round balls up sounds pretty neat.

[turbo1889]

. . . Since the round ball is already overbore wouldn't it be possible to do without the wad altogether?. . .

If you had a shotgun with a custom cut chamber that didn't have a forcing cone and the chamber cut was the same depth as the shell was long with a very close tolerance; then yes one could do away with the wadding for a 0.735" RB slug or any other tight fitting full bore diameter slug for that matter. Such a gun would basically operate just like a carbine that took giant oversize revolver shells that just happened to use hybrid metallic/plastic cases.

The forcing cone that is cut into shotgun barrels which has no parallel in rifle or pistol barrels along with the fact that people shoot short shells in long chambers (for example: 2-3/4" shell in 3" chamber) is what makes wadding almost completely necessary in all shotgun loads including full bore slugs.

[Baryngyl]

You have any data for loading 2 or 3 .690 Round balls, these weigh 1.1 OZ each?
I would like to push these around 1,400 or so.

Thank You
Michael Grace

[dogbert41]

I'm thinking about getting a rifled deer choke for my new shotgun and a .735 RB mold to see if I can duplicate some of the results Adam604 got at the beginning of this thread!

The only one I can find is this:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=7494/pid=1944/sku/Choke_Tube__Rifled_Deer_Special__Invector__Matte


I just got a Win SX2 3" Mag with 26" barrel and using an imp cyl choke did some pretty promising break-in shooting with .690 rb, but will have to put it on paper to see if I can get it anywhere close to what Adam did. Does anyone know if Lee makes a .735? I love their .690 RB mold especially for the price...

[missionary5155]

Greetings Baryngyl
You might want to cantact Dixie Slugs on that combination.
3 + ounces of lead and especially multiples changes the pressure curve dramaticly.
Plus you want to go with HARD balls as with this much weight the rear ball will be moving smashing the mid ball which is trying to push that top loaded ball which is not going to want to start accelerat.. Soft balls are going to expand in the barrel and pressures can go balistic.

[longbow]

Baryngyl:

I have a double 0.690" ball load someone published. I can't recall who published it or where I got it and didn't record the info.

I have not used it so cannot comment personally on the safety though he included pressure info with it.

I am reluctant to post it since I did not develop it or use it. I was planning to compare the powder charge and weight of lead to published data before trying it and just have not got to it.

The load is for 3" hulls. If you are interested I will look through my reloading info to compare and if it looks sane for powder, charge and payload I will PM you.

Also, you might look at the Dixie Tri-Ball load James Gates posted here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=47198&highlight=tri-ball

Longbow

[excess650]

I bought the Lyman and Lee 12ga slug molds for use in shotcups, and tried them, but wasn't thrilled. I briefly tried .735" RBs and then bought a .735" mold from NEI. It casts a large "collar button" about 600gr, I'll have to go back and check...

My test mule is a Rem 870 with rifled barrel with sights. I had previously shot various factory slugs, both Foster type and saboted, and knew it would shoot 3" or less at 100 yards with ammo it liked. I also have a Browning ABolt Hunter 12ga, full rifled with scope that would shoot sube 2" at 100 yards with the same ammo the 870 liked. One of them preferred to be clean and the other dirty to shoot best groups.:confused:

The first incarnation of 2-3/4" Lightfields (1998?)I tried had .58cal slugs in sabbots and swelled the case heads in the Browning, so I used Federal 2-3/4" 1oz(?) .50cal.

The next generation 2-3/4" Lightfields were .62 in sabots and didn't produce the pressure issue with the Browning. Those were the (2) factoy loads that shot best in BOTH despite both being chambered 3", fully rifled, etc. I tried everything that I could find at the time from Remington, Winchester, Federal, Lightfield, and more! I shot whitetails with both the Federals and Lightfields as I was hunting in a shotgun or MLer only area.

Anyway, I fooled with the NEI slugs in the 870 and interpolated Lyman shotshell data to find starting points. (600gr is close to 1-3/8oz)I don't recall if I used a cushion was or just nitro cards under the .735" slugs, but built a wad column so that it would roll crimp shut with an 8 point crimp. I used only Blue Dot as it appeared to be the logical choice for up to 1-1/2oz 2-3/4" Magnum loads. I know that I was shooting 42gr, but the recoil was severe. When shooting at 50 yards I was getting a vertical string, and didn't realize the rear sight was creeping upward on its ramp!

Anyway, shooting .735" "collar buttons" casued no problems with my fully rifled barrel, nor did the .735" RBs. I suspect that if too oversized, the slugs might casue a problem with choketube barrels at the threads.:(

I may get a wild hair and revisit these loads when I feel like I need a beating.:roll: I'll bet they would flatten a wiley whitetail immediately.

[dogbert41]

Excess650, I started out with 36 grains HS6 for my Lee 1oz slugs and they were too fierce in the recoil department for lot of shooting. I can't imagine 42 grains blue dot behind a 600 grain ball! What were they moving?

[excess650]

I'm looking through my Lyman Shotshell Handbook and trying to remember.:killingpc I see similar or heavier charges in 2-3/4" cases with the Vitt/Boos slug just shy of 1400fps. The 525gr Lyman sabot slug gets 1500fps+.

While you may think my charges were high, the 3" cases with 525gr Lyman sabot slug get 50gr Blue Dot for 1550-1595fps!:holysheep

Like I said, recoil was noticeable, as in the hardest kicking anything I've ever shot!

[shotman]

.735 has quite of bit to swage in a rifled 870. I use a .728 over 30gr blue dot and NO crimp and does a good good job recoil is about what a 1 1/4 field load would be
dont think it would be good to use a .735 in a screw in choke. Try driveing a .735 down a cyl bore you will break a 3/8in wood dowl

[turbo1889]

. . . . dont think it would be good to use a .735 in a screw in choke. Try driveing a .735 down a cyl bore you will break a 3/8in wood dowl

For a hard cast ball you are correct; for smooth bore barrels using 0.735" RB slugs I suggest that the hardest alloy that should ever be used is 30:1 and soft nearly pure lead isn't a bad choice either. For such a soft cast ball the swag down force is minimal and they can even take a little bit of choke constriction such as a Skeet or Improved Cylinder screw in choke tube (0.005" & 0.010" constriction respectively).

Hard Cast 0.735" RB slugs can be used in true cylinder bore smooth bore guns but like yourself I'm hesitant to suggest it as standard operating procedure. Save the hard cast ones for the rifled slug barrels. But I wouldn't go so far as to condemn it either. I have fired 0.735" round ball slugs among others cast from a variety of alloys including commercial hardball alloy through a gun equipped with a variety of choke constrictions including full choke in purely an academic experimental endeavor to examine whether all that is said about hard cast full bore slugs splitting choked barrels (Don't try this at home without taking extensive precautions including a mounted, shielded test stand with remote trigger set-up). I can conclusively state that it takes more to split, bulge or otherwise damage the end of a choked barrel through abusing the gun with harder and harder full bore slugs then most think it would take but it can be done if you try hard enough.

[dogbert41]

Thanks for the heads up guys! I guess I'll stick with the .690 ball and a thin shotcup or one with no pedals.

[savage308]

I am waiting for my .735 Lyman mold to get delivered so I have no loads to talk about yet but I have tried many different Tri-ball loads exactly as Dixie Slugs loading info with 3" fiochii hulls and Precision Reloading wads and 28
grains of Blue Dot and haven't had great results. one shell would eject fine with no pressure signs and the next one
would stick in chamber and show minor signs but only slight marks at the rim. IT could just be my gun as far as the ejection problem goes but I can't get good grouping with this load so far. This is with 3 .600 hard balls. I am loading more with 26 gr. and 24 gr. to try out. When I get my Lyman .735 mold I will try single ball loads to compare to my LEE slug loads. I am also having good results with a 2 .600 2 ball load in a 2 3/4 cheditte hull over 23 gr. Green Dot and it grouped good at 50 yds. Sometimes I get 2 holes touching then the next shot is 4" lower and holes 2" apart which I am pleased with. still working on that load.

[savage308]

I am waiting for my .735 Lyman mold to get delivered so I have no loads to talk about yet but I have tried many different Tri-ball loads exactly as Dixie Slugs loading info with 3" fiochii hulls and Precision Reloading wads and 28
grains of Blue Dot and haven't had great results. one shell would eject fine with no pressure signs and the next one
would stick in chamber and show minor signs but only slight marks at the rim. IT could just be my gun as far as the ejection problem goes but I can't get good grouping with this load so far. This is with 3 .600 hard balls. I am loading more with 26 gr. and 24 gr. to try out. When I get my Lyman .735 mold I will try single ball loads to compare to my LEE slug loads. I am also having good results with a 2 .600 2 ball load in a 2 3/4 cheditte hull over 23 gr. Green Dot and it grouped good at 50 yds. Sometimes I get 2 holes touching then the next shot is 4" lower and holes 2" apart which I am pleased with. still working on that load.

[Mayor]

I am waiting for my .735 Lyman mold to get delivered so I have no loads to talk about yet but I have tried many different Tri-ball loads exactly as Dixie Slugs loading info with 3" fiochii hulls and Precision Reloading wads and 28
grains of Blue Dot and haven't had great results. one shell would eject fine with no pressure signs and the next one
would stick in chamber and show minor signs but only slight marks at the rim. IT could just be my gun as far as the ejection problem goes but I can't get good grouping with this load so far. This is with 3 .600 hard balls. I am loading more with 26 gr. and 24 gr. to try out. When I get my Lyman .735 mold I will try single ball loads to compare to my LEE slug loads. I am also having good results with a 2 .600 2 ball load in a 2 3/4 cheditte hull over 23 gr. Green Dot and it grouped good at 50 yds. Sometimes I get 2 holes touching then the next shot is 4" lower and holes 2" apart which I am pleased with. still working on that load.

If I had to venture a guess about your inconsistancies with these loads I would say that the .600 RB would be the issue. It is quite a bit under sized for the bore and is probably letting your gas seal blow out or pressure to blow by it since it doesn't present a "flat" surface against the seal like a load of shot and it is too far away from the inside of the bore.

A .690 like the feller posting before you would fix that.
The .735 you spoke of would probably require a this brass hull like the CBC/Magtech.

[Mayor]

I am waiting for my .735 Lyman mold to get delivered so I have no loads to talk about yet but I have tried many different Tri-ball loads exactly as Dixie Slugs loading info with 3" fiochii hulls and Precision Reloading wads and 28
grains of Blue Dot and haven't had great results. one shell would eject fine with no pressure signs and the next one
would stick in chamber and show minor signs but only slight marks at the rim. IT could just be my gun as far as the ejection problem goes but I can't get good grouping with this load so far. This is with 3 .600 hard balls. I am loading more with 26 gr. and 24 gr. to try out. When I get my Lyman .735 mold I will try single ball loads to compare to my LEE slug loads. I am also having good results with a 2 .600 2 ball load in a 2 3/4 cheditte hull over 23 gr. Green Dot and it grouped good at 50 yds. Sometimes I get 2 holes touching then the next shot is 4" lower and holes 2" apart which I am pleased with. still working on that load.

If I had to venture a guess about your inconsistancies with these loads I would say that the .600 RB would be the issue. It is quite a bit under sized for the bore and is probably letting your gas seal blow out or pressure to blow by it since it doesn't present a "flat" surface against the seal like a load of shot and it is too far away from the inside of the bore.

A .690 like the feller posting before you would fix that.
The .735 you spoke of would probably require a this brass hull like the CBC/Magtech.

[GBertolet]

Here are two attached photo's of recovered .737 RB's cast from the Lyman mold. My mold casts slightly oversize, and my slugs weigh out at 600.5 gr cast from pure lead. These were fired in an Ithica 37, with a .727 groove diameter barrel. 42 gr of Blue Dot was the powder charge, and they were wrapped with teflon tape. Since then I have aquired a NEF Slug Hunter which I now prefer for the RB. At over 11lb with scope and sling, plus 5 rounds of ammo on an elastic butt stock ammo holder, recoil is tolerable. Notice how the RB's are flat around the equator, and they are no longer quite round as a result of being fired. They were recovered from a dirt bank. I think RB's would have lower pressure than identical loads with Forster slugs, or even shot, due to the small bearing surface.

[longbow]

Yow! 42 grs. of Blue Dot! OUCH!

I shot 0.735" RB's (cast 0.736" and weighed 585 grs. cast from wheelweights) from a rifled Remington 870 with a HARD recoil pad and got slapped silly at 38 grs. of Blue Dot. The load I based mine on was from Precision Rifle for their 610 gr. Piledriver which they loaded over up to 44 grs. Blue Dot!!! OUCH! again.

I must be getting old and soft but those loads form a bench are a bit more than I like.

Anyway, my conclusion was the same as yours. I was a bit concerned that the balls were 0.007" over my smoothbore bore diameter but a light tap with a mallet and dowel swaged that small bearing area down easily. My concerns disappeared after that. They shot well from my smoothbore and better from the rifled gun and it too had a groove diameter of 0.727". Yours in pure lead should swage even easier than my harder alloy though they are somewhat larger. They are obviously working for you.

Recovered balls look much the same as yours but with a slightly smaller "belt" around them.

I do like the round ball loads.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Has anyone considered the fact that; the .735 balls when fired and being forced down the barrel, will no longer be "round".
The distortion of the ball and making it "dirt clod" shaped, would have a definite impact on accuracy.
I believe that the "rounder" the balls are when leaving the muzzle, the straighter they will shoot. If you look at the photos above, there are areas that the wind deflection would have a bad time with. If one looks at it from the "ballistic coefficient" point of view, the ball in the photo will have a different BC as it turns "when the wind deflects it".
As for a round round ball, the BC will bot change due to shape. The BC will not change as it is, or if it is rotated going down range.
Now I realize that you are shooting from a "smooth" bore, and I am shooting from a rifled bore. I still
believe the same rules apply to both when firing round balls.
If I were shooting down a smooth bore, I would start with a ball of "bore diameter". I would lube it with something. Then I would load a seal wad over the powder. Add the appropriate amount of filler wads (if needed). Then find/make a relatively thick cradling wad that would be bore diameter, and nestle the ball in the same shape as the ball. Then the crimp of choice.
I may do some testing on this after the other hundreds of testing I want to do.

So, in my humble opinion, and in my own casting and reloading technique, I will probably:
1. Cast my balls hard.
2. Cast by balls undersize. At this time in testing, .680 diameter.
3. Load my hard cast balls into a wad cup (WAA12 White) that will take the rifling, absorb "some" of the distortion of the rifling on the balls perimeter, keeping it as round as possible.
Just my humble opinion.
Regards
Jack

[savage308]

thanks for the input Mayor. the precision reloading wads I am using are cupped at the bottom as if they were designed
for the .600 round balls and none of the recovered wads have any sign of powder blowby at the base and most look great . The problems are with extraction and poor grouping of the 3 balls. the 2 ball load is looking good but still playing with both at the moment. the .735 Lyman round ball mould is on the way and I have much reading to do before I load that one. I am using COWW and water drenching the .600 balls and the are slightly deforming just where they touch in the wad. I am using buffer as recommended by DIXIE. thanks again.

[longbow]

littlejack:

In my case the 0.735" round ball is only 0.006" over bore diameter so there is almost no belt. Regardless, they will shoot into 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards pretty much all the time if the wad column is good and into 2" groups from rifled barrel.

I recovered balls from deep snow and while there is a small "belt" around the equator, it is small and seems to have little if any effect on accuracy.

If a 0.729"/0.730" mould had been readily available I probably would have bought one (yes I know Jeff Tanner can make them but that is order in), I just bought a Lyman.

It works well for me.

Longbow

[GBertolet]

I am also getting groups with the RB in the 2" range at 50 yards from the rifled NEF Slug Hunter. Sometimes even better than that. I don't believe that the obturation of the RB has any effect on the accuracy at all. As long as the ball is in balance, the changing of the profile won't matter. Another factor to consider, hull condition has as much effect as anything on accuracy, whether it be RB or slug. Best accuracy is with new hulls, or once fired at most. It most likely has something to do with the weakening crimp strength, due to softening of the plastic. Lots of frustration in consistency using multi time fired hulls. You can get a bag of 100 primed hulls from Ballistic products for around $10-$15.

[littlejack]

G:
Not wanting to argue, but if you think "obturation" has no effect on accuracy, then why do shot manufacturers try to get their shot as round as possible? Out of round shot will mess up a pattern faster than anything else.
That being said, what make you think that an out of round "round ball" will fly true. Shape it like an egg, or have a flat side on it, and it will have an effect on how it flies.
Just sayin
Jack

[longbow]

Jack:

He is shooting from rifled barrel so really it is a football shaped boolit rather than flat based.

I believe you are right if that shape was being shot form a smoothbore. It would pick up a spin from drag/turbulence than then it would veer off course fairly quickly.

My 0.735" round balls are slightly over bore diameter and do get a small "belt" around them but very small. Certainly to 50 yards it has little if any effect as those tend to shoot groups of 3" to 4", every bit as good as round ball in shotcup loads where there is no distortion of the ball.

Don't forget, those are recovered from teh berm so the flat distorted "nose" was not like that when it was fired. Only the cylindrical belt which rotates around the "long" axis so unbalance and no "edges" to catch the air.

Longbow

[GBertolet]

Littlejack, Longbow is correct, the RB flies true, nose first, as it is spun by the rifling, just like any rifle bullet. Where as birdshot, or a RB from a smoothbore, when in flight is tumbling, constantly offering different aerodynamic profiles, deflecting the shot or RB's flight. In this case, the truer the roundness, the more accurate the flight. In a smoothbore your diagnosis is correct, but adding rifling changes everything.

[littlejack]

I agree fellas.
Keep all balls balanced and round.
Good verbal jousting, huh?
Jack

[Mayor]

I agree fellas.
Keep all balls balanced and round.
Good verbal jousting, huh?
Jack
I'm still getting over my balls being swaged and tumbling in flight!