NAA Guardian Jamming

[sigep1764]

Hey Folks,
I purchased an NAA Guardian in 32ACP a couple of months ago. Got dies, brass, and 71 grain fmj projectiles to start while I decided on a mold. I am loading to the very max mag length and am getting nose up jams where the rim dives into the magazine which then partially ejects the mag. I sent the pistol back to NAA where they replaced the springs, magazine eject button, and polished the feed ramp. Back from the range today and they are still nosing up/partially ejecting the mag. Rounds are loaded according to the Lyman 49th edition with 1.9 grains of Red Dot with an oil of .984. This is the longest length that will fit into the mag. Any thoughts before I send it back again?

Kyle

[country gent]

See if you can see where the "catch" is at. I have had one for years. You might try loading a little shorter like .980 or so.

Is it every round or random in the jams. Does it occur chambering the round or as fired.

Another thing is a semi auto pistol likes a firm solid grip to feed and function reliably. A light relaxed target grip dosnt always help them. These small light pistols jump around and are hard to hold on to.

I have one and its been a good pistol. Im considering cutting a gutter snipe sight groove into the slide ( like the seecamp) in place of the iron sights. Mine dosnt seem fancy and is feed S&B for practice and WW silvertips for carry

[mdi]

While I don't own that particular gun, I normally don't load to the max. OAL for a semi-auto pistol. For a new to me gun/load I use the OAL from the bullet's manufacturer, or the data from a same size, shape, weight bullet and plunk test...

[Drew P]

I don’t load for mine, it’s the only piece I own that I don’t load for, but I’ve had it a long time and it’s never been picky about ammo. In fact it’s been dead reliable. Not helpful I know, but if you want pics or any details about mine I’d be happy to try and help.

[sigep1764]

It has done it with factory rounds as well. The reloaded rounds pass the plunk test and fit the mag. They hand cycle just fine, its during shooting that it jams and dives randomly. I have a pretty firm grip, I load and shoot for an LCP 380. Snappy pistols have never been a problem and I only put 40 rounds through it today so I doubt it got dirty enough to cause any malfunctions. And it happened on the first mag full all they way to last. Ill seat a few shorter and see what happens. As always, I appreciate the wisdom and knowledge on this forum.

[Drew P]

All clean lubed up good? Sounds like a mag problem to me

[Bazoo]

I agree it sounds like a bad magazine, except that it's dropping the mag. First place I'd look is to make certain your not inadvertently hitting the mag release.

[sigep1764]

Its hard enough to hit the mag release when I want to! I thought it might be the case as well, tried different hand positions, and let the RO try the pistol. No joy. The grip panels are thick enough to prevent inadvertently hitting the mag release, it is very tiny, and needs some authority when pushed. It also does this with each of three different mags. It could be the mag springs are weak too.

[mdi]

Hmm. If you load one less round in the magazine does the first round jam? Not suggesting you load one short, just looking for a clue...

[Drew P]

Maybe try some more factory rounds of different types. Mine likes Aguila hollow points.

[sigep1764]

DustyBannister found a link pointing to the extended base plates as the culprit. Does anyone here have them on there mags? Both of mine have them.

https://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=115.0

[Dusty Bannister]

Not to say the extended base plate was the culprit, there were numerous issues being discussed. It was sent as a PM since there was little information presented about the history of the gun, round count, new or used, type of lube,etc. I thought perhaps the OP could read through and pick out the various points that might lead him to resolving his problem. Then comment on what else was tried and if successful or not. Instead of the extended base plate, it might just be the mag release is not completely engaged and that is allowing the mag to drop. Still questions, not a lot of answers.

[35remington]

Describe the jam precisely. Where is the rim when it jams? Where is the nose of the bullet? How it jams tells you what is causing it, and “polishing the ramp” is a failed “cure” in 99.999 percent of the instances it is applied. Polishing the ramp makes the customer feel like something positive was done but does not actually cure anything.

A picture of the jam or simulating the exact look of the jam would be helpful.

Is the slide hitting the case in front of the rim and failing to pick it up? This is called bolt over base and means a weak magazine spring or an overly strong action spring, or perhaps both at the same time.

If the “extended baseplate” has some role in affecting spring tension then that is a possibility. Plus one or plus two magazine extensions that put more ammo in the same space are notorious for making a gun jam. If the maker decided a certain number of rounds can fit in the magazine, trying to get more in by making the spring shorter and making the shorter spring work harder to move more ammo further is a recipe for malfunctions.

[sigep1764]

245008245009

I cannot replicate it handcycling. The front of the bullet is jammed against the front edge of the chamber almost perpendicular with the case head buried in the mag. In our PMs, I did explain to Dusty that I neglected to mention the mag catch was replaced with a newer design from NAA. The mag extensions are a rest for a second finger and do not allow for additional rounds. The jam will not happen with a full mag and one in the chamber, it has only occurred after a round has been emptied from a full mag. I only have around 150 rounds through the pistol. It was purchased used which opens this up to various issues.

[Drew P]

Mine does not have the extendo base plate. I only have one mag.

[Bazoo]

That jam indicates limp wristing, weak mag spring, binding mag follower. The cartridge is not raised enough to be stripped off the magazine, or the slide isn't coming back far enough to pick up the fresh round.

Do you know if NAA replaced the mag springs?

Maybe a marginally too heavy recoil spring.

What about a slight burr on the bottom of the slide, at the front that might catch on the rim of the next cartridge, either stopping the slide or bumping the rim of the round down in the magazine long enough that it doesn't get picked up.

[35remington]

As I suspected. Bolt over base. The slide is outrunning the magazine.

Replace magazine and action spring with fresh ones. If it does it with factory loads this would confirm the diagnosis. The round is not in feeding position when the slide goes forward.

If ejection is reasonably vigorous the jam is not due to the slide not going back far enough.

With the spring removed, do the rounds and follower slide freely through the magazine when stacked within?

[sigep1764]

They do slide freely from the bottom of the mag to the feed lips without restriction. I stretched the mag spring a little and will retest. Regardless, I will order new mag springs. Thank you to all who have responded, much appreciated.

[35remington]

If you want to see if the spring is at fault, see if you can do the following:

Disassemble magazine. Place one, but preferably two, loaded shells at the bottom of the magazine. Put spring and follower back in place atop bottom rounds.

This gives spring a boost in power as more spring occupies less space while at the same time having to hoist less weight upwards to feed. Load magazine with as many rounds as will fit....of course capacity will be less. Retest to see if jam is recurrent. If not, suspect springs. Hopefully your floorplate configuration will allow such a test as I do not know what type of floor configuration your magazine has.

This works as a test in a number of pistols that have a floorplate configuration that allows such manipulation. 1911s are a cinch and it is possible with other designs but not all. Hopefully the magazine bottom will allow you to do such a test.

[sigep1764]

Interesting idea, Remington. Ill give it a shot.

[Bazoo]

Another thing could be the angle of the spring at the top has been changed. If the spring is not the same at both ends, maybe they are installed upside down.

[sigep1764]

Well, got new magazine springs from Wolff. New ones are at least an inch longer. Ill get to the range later this week.

[sigep1764]

Magazine springs did not solve the problem. I think it is going back to NAA and I will see if they will replace it.

[35remington]

Do modification I described first before sending it back. This will resolve whether a design problem or not. Use the new springs. This will help make your case if you must send it in.

[Bazoo]

Keep us advised, be interesting to know what the cause is. At this point I'm going to guess too strong recoil spring.

[Minaprob]

i had similar problems with my seecamp.

[35remington]

I note LuckyGunner had similar problems in their review of the pistol and noted it as unreliable with similar jams. The slide was outrunning the magazine. Design flaw insufficiently addressed before sending to market it appears.

Brace yourself for the reality that getting a different one won’t fix it.

Note similar jam to the one you complain of at 4:06 in this video.

Apologies for having to relay such information.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PrLcxqWsM94&list=PLYqiOqBy2WM8xwHJt4tKJ4SJRinqP5S1B&index=13&t=0s

[country gent]

I know the secamp 32s and I believe the guardians were built around win 32 silver tip ammo. My Gaurdian feeds and functions 100% with them other ball ammo I get a occasional jam. Like the original lugers the best load is the one that duplicates the early bullet profile and pressure. I will also not as the pistols get smaller hold care ammo and everything becomes more critical to function feeding and reliability.

[35remington]

Given the penetration deficiencies of HP ammo in 32 ACP I myself would regard a small 32 Auto that was unreliable with ball as a paperweight.

[Drew P]

Given the penetration deficiencies of HP ammo in 32 ACP I myself would regard a small 32 Auto that was unreliable with ball as a paperweight.
these can be very reliable. Mine is rock solid with almost any ammo, especially ball. I have no hesitation trusting it.

[Drew P]

I wonder if it’s the mag extension finger rest thing. That might put tension on the mag that forces it forward or pulls it down.

[35remington]

Lucky Gunner and the OP both are having similar problems with theirs, which seems to be an un endorsement

[sigep1764]

As a note, this jam is occurring with no baseplate, plus two(finger not boolit), and pinky rest baseplate(no additional round). This is a gun problem, not anything else. They need to make it right if they are standing behind their product, used or new.

[Drew P]

Lucky Gunner and the OP both are having similar problems with theirs, which seems to be an un endorsement
Well my Glock just flew apart at the range while I was using it, and that’s not even possible! So does that mean it’s a paper weight too?

[35remington]

Actual occurring events with the Guardian are under discussion, so let us confine our future commentary to that. All involved want his gun to work and it is no go so far. I hope they can make it right, but it is the maker’s problem to resolve.

His methodology indicates what he is doing or has done is not the cause of the malfunctions.

[Bazoo]

I still think is a recoil spring issue. Either too weak and the slide is cycling too fast, or more likely, too strong and the slide is intermittently not going back far enough to pick up a new cartridge.

I do hope it gets resolved though. I know how frustrating such can be. I have one in limbo right now.

[35remington]

Weak action springs are usually not connected to the types of jams seen here as the forward movement of the slide is slower when the springs are weak. The slide regardless of spring strength within reasonable limits moves backward much faster than it goes forward. Weak springs actually slow action cycle time especially in the crucial forward motion phase.

Unfortunately little autoloading pistols are the most inherently unreliable repeating firearms on the planet and the hardest to keep functioning reliably with any amount of use. Whatever the cause I also hope it is resolvable but I fear poor design and specification of materials marginally adequate to the task may be at fault.

Backwater manufacturers of firearms have a generally poor engineering reputation.

[Bazoo]

That makes sense.

[Drew P]

These have been produced in many numbers, continuously, and still today, for over 22 years. Just saying.

[sigep1764]

They have made a number of them in 4 different calibers. NAA should have this down. Been super busy with work lately and haven't called for a label yet.

[dondiego]

Have you tried new magazines?

[sigep1764]

It came with two magazines. Both were sent back with the pistol to NAA a month or two ago. The sent a new mag back with the pistol as a replacement with a new baseplate. I changed the springs in both mags and still malfunctions.

[dondiego]

It strikes me as very odd that NAA would send you back a firearm that malfunctions. That is a concern!

[Walkingwolf]

245008245009

I cannot replicate it handcycling. The front of the bullet is jammed against the front edge of the chamber almost perpendicular with the case head buried in the mag. In our PMs, I did explain to Dusty that I neglected to mention the mag catch was replaced with a newer design from NAA. The mag extensions are a rest for a second finger and do not allow for additional rounds. The jam will not happen with a full mag and one in the chamber, it has only occurred after a round has been emptied from a full mag. I only have around 150 rounds through the pistol. It was purchased used which opens this up to various issues.
That looks like a break in jam, a particular problem with new Hi Points. The slide is not cycling all the way back due to stiff recoil spring, and rough surfaces. That is why it functions hand cycling. The cure for Hi Points is +P ammo, the same cure for the Kimber Ultra Light which does the same thing. Keep your slide blocked to the rear while storing the gun, keep the magazines full in storage. Sit in front of the TV racking the slide, this works for most fixed barrel guns that are new, and some 1911's that have micro tolerances like Kimbers. On the 32acp the semi rim does not help matters, the breach of the slide MUST get behind rim to push it forward, otherwise it grabs the rim groove and tips the cartridge upward. This will probably clear up after 500 rounds, which is a common break in of semi autos.

[Drew P]

An ammo test I saw showed aguilla FMJ ball ammo as the hottest available commercial. They don’t really have a +p 32acp that I’m aware of.

[Walkingwolf]

An ammo test I saw showed aguilla FMJ ball ammo as the hottest available commercial. They don’t really have a +p 32acp that I’m aware of.

Nope, Buffalo Bore claims theirs is +P but SAMMI does not have any 32acp +P specifications. Probably one could get close by loading to the limit in the loading manual, or sit and rack the slide a few thousand times.

[Drew P]

Nope, Buffalo Bore claims theirs is +P but SAMMI does not have any 32acp +P specifications. Probably one could get close by loading to the limit in the loading manual, or sit and rack the slide a few thousand times.
My GF will only tolerate a few hundred times at max lol.