New Pedersoli and a ton of questions.

[steve817]

So after years of wanting one I finally got my Quigley rifle.
I’ll be loading 405 grain .458 bullets over black powder.

With all that out of the way I’m hoping to cast my own using a 20:1 alloy
Is it possible to find a mold that will drop them at .458 or should I look for something bigger and size them down?

If I size them down can I lube them with alox before running them through the sizing die? It’s my understanding that that they somehow be lubed before sizing them down.

[rfd]

when i was starting out loading greasers for pedersoli sharps and rollers, strictly for paper and steel shooting at 200 yards and further, i used lyman 457193 (405 grain) and 457132 (535 grain postell) moulds. you need to use a good mould and those lymans are good for starters (but there are better and lots more expen$ive moulds for the target games). with 20:1 or 30:1 alloy those lyman moulds dropped at .459" and i just left them unsized, dip lubed them, then used an expanded case to cookie cut the excess lube off. to be sure, you could slug the barrel, but with a good pedersoli sharps or roller match barrel (and i have had far more than a handful of these guns, and still do), i never found that necessary and produced match winning greaser bullets. the bore and groove on pedersoli .45-70's is very typically .450/.458 and most of us have found that a larger diameter .459/.460 alloy bullet works best. good luck and enjoy yer new gun!

[Nobade]

What he says. If the bullet will slip into a fired case you don't need or want to size it smaller. And don't be using any alox based lubes with black powder or you'll regret it.

[Toymaker]

What rfd says. That's the 405 grain Lyman mold that I use. However, for the bigger bullet I prefer the Hoch 500 Postell. I've gotten perfectly acceptable bullets using pure lead but the addition of a little tin makes fill-out easier when beginning. 30:1 and 20:1 are perfectly acceptable. And DON'T USE ALOX!! You need a good grease lube to keep the fouling soft. There are lots of recipes here although to start it may be easier for you to buy a good commercial lube for starters. You can use grease cookies, wipe between shots (my preference), or use a blow tube. Last, but certainly not least, HAVE FUN!!!

[country gent]

The lyman 405 grn is a good bullet. Easy to cast and shoots good. Is your Quigley 45-90 or 45-70? I use several grease groove bullets in my Pedersoli long range sharps. 1) the old stand by 457125 lyman 500 grn. This is a good traditional design, easy to cast and load. 2) the Lyman 535 grn postell. this bullet does well for me at longer ranges (out to 500 yds) Its a easy to cast bullet and performs well. 3) A old west bullet 547grn silhouette This bullet shoots very well in all my 45 cal BPCR rifles and really hits rams hard.

If your rifle is 1-18 twist you may find it likes the heavier / longer bullets more.

Are you planning on BP or a smokeless substitute load?

[Lead pot]

If I was to have just one bullet mould and was a new black powder cartridge shooter and was going to shoot a GG bullet I would choose this bullet. https://www.buffaloarms.com/459-530-grain-original-postel-1-cavity-cast-bullet-mould-jim459530p1bb . Yes it's higher priced than a Lyman or Lee but this old design will shoot at all ranges.
I see so many shooters spend a lot of money on a rifle and skimp on sights or moulds and discouraged and give it up.
Yes this mould is expensive compared to a over the counter mould but it's round and drops from the mould were all you have to do is pan lube it and load it into a case.
If you look at the ogive, with the right alloy the shape of the ogive will have less contact with the bore, this will help reduce the lead left behind and you will have less problem loading it in a fowled throat.
You have a fine rifle. Do it justice and get a good mould.

If the mould is out of stock, it will be made in a short order and delivered.

[Flintlock]

I don't shoot a lot of Black Powder from my Sharps but I use a 405grn. cast from Lyman mold and the Lyman Black Powder Gold lube. I apply with fingers each bullet I load.
Usually I just load enough to check zero at 100 & 200 yards and use the others to hunt with on one place I hunt. The owner sometimes sets with me in my blind or fence line, drinking coffee and talking while waiting for that magic time right before dusk when all of the deer on his place hit the wheat. He gets a kick out of me shooting does with the Sharps and black powder. That is why I get to keep hunting on his place and the fact that I give him my special recipe jerky from deer on his place.
I don't know if it's necessary but I carry a ram rod with me hunting and swab the bore each shoot just for piece of mind. Works for me but probably not necessary for only a few shots.
I use the same bullet lubed with some red lube I got for my modern powder loads to play and hunt with.
I tried some 300 grain jacketed hollow points in the Sharps with modern powder but it likes the heavier bullets. It is a Pedersoli Sporting #3 with Baldwin rear and Lyman globe front.
Mike

[steve817]

I will be shooting Goex 2f


The lyman 405 grn is a good bullet. Easy to cast and shoots good. Is your Quigley 45-90 or 45-70? I use several grease groove bullets in my Pedersoli long range sharps. 1) the old stand by 457125 lyman 500 grn. This is a good traditional design, easy to cast and load. 2) the Lyman 535 grn postell. this bullet does well for me at longer ranges (out to 500 yds) Its a easy to cast bullet and performs well. 3) A old west bullet 547grn silhouette This bullet shoots very well in all my 45 cal BPCR rifles and really hits rams hard.

If your rifle is 1-18 twist you may find it likes the heavier / longer bullets more.

Are you planning on BP or a smokeless substitute load?

[steve817]

I see several folks recommending heavier bullets. Although I like the idea of shooting longer distances, most of my shooting will be inside of 200 yards. I have heard that sometimes these may not stabilize at that distance. What has y’alls experience been in that situation?

[country gent]

Test several bullets in your rifle and let it tell you what it wants.

One thing to consider before buying the mould, You might consider asking for some test bullets in various weights styles in the swapping and selling section. Test these and you will know what mould to buy pretty much for sure.

[MT Chambers]

Get a luber, some SPG, and test some heavier bullets for anything over 200 yds, you'll want to try some longer shots once you hit at 200 or more. You can also experiment with paper patching and duplex loading to reduce fouling. With your reloading you'll have to play with compression and blow tubing between shots if you use lube type boolits…...enjoy.

[rfd]

there is considerable subjectivity concerning BPCR cartridge components and build methods. most all are valid and will get the job done if yer up to the task. my starter recommendations follow ...

for 200 yards and under, and yer not yet a "serious" match shooter, the lyman 457193 will do very nicely, it's a match winner.

cast at 30:1 for starters, no sense in wasting expensive tin.

pan or dip lube - do not waste money on a lubrisizer that's never needed. if yer not considering a DIY lube, buy/use SPG.

you should drop fill the powder, that compacts it. making a drop tube is easy with a funnel and 2' of brass tubing or an aluminum arrow shaft. add a wad over the powder, then use slight compression for starters. for compressing the powder, a press mounted die is great to have, but a 7/16" dowel with a mark on it works well, for starters. buy or punch out .460" x .062" wads from milk cartons or light tag board. yep, all this is for starters to get yer foot in the bpcr door.

if the brass is already fire formed, use it as is, don't bother sizing. if the bullet seats but is loose in the case mouth, use a taper crimp or sizing die to Very Slightly squeeze in the case mouth so the bullet won't fall out, and will turn in the case. the best neck tension is none. if the brass is new, you might be able to expand the mouth to accept a thumb seated lubed bullet.

greaser building means creating a completed compressed powder cartridge with an OAL either just before, or engraving the rifling. all part of experimenting. this means building a dummy cartridge in order to figure out how much weight bp is compacted in the case, and then compressed with a wad, and the final OAL with a seated greased bullet. this is the first requirement for building consistent bp cartridges. take a spent primer and seat in a case backwards and use that to build a dummy cartridge.

you will absolutely need to address between the shot fouling control by blow tubing or wiping, try both, see what works best for you and yer gun. i vastly prefer wiping for both greasers and PPBs. enjoy the cartridge build process, good luck, have fun!

[country gent]

Another trick for simple powder compression is to make a dummy bullet up to match the one your using. .008-.010 small on dia and the same shape or form. use this in your seater die to compress powder charge. When you get it just right a .030 spacer under die ring so die doesn't crimp and you can compress and seat just removing the spacer.

[indian joe]

there is considerable subjectivity concerning BPCR cartridge components and build methods. most all are valid and will get the job done if yer up to the task. my starter recommendations follow ...

for 200 yards and under, and yer not yet a "serious" match shooter, the lyman 457193 will do very nicely, it's a match winner.

cast at 30:1 for starters, no sense in wasting expensive tin.

pan or dip lube - do not waste money on a lubrisizer that's never needed. if yer not considering a DIY lube, buy/use SPG.

you should drop fill the powder, that compacts it. making a drop tube is easy with a funnel and 2' of brass tubing or an aluminum arrow shaft. add a wad over the powder, then use slight compression for starters. for compressing the powder, a press mounted die is great to have, but a 7/16" dowel with a mark on it works well, for starters. buy or punch out .460" x .062" wads from milk cartons or light tag board. yep, all this is for starters to get yer foot in the bpcr door.

if the brass is already fire formed, use it as is, don't bother sizing. if the bullet seats but is loose in the case mouth, use a taper crimp or sizing die to Very Slightly squeeze in the case mouth so the bullet won't fall out, and will turn in the case. the best neck tension is none. if the brass is new, you might be able to expand the mouth to accept a thumb seated lubed bullet.

greaser building means creating a completed compressed powder cartridge with an OAL either just before, or engraving the rifling. all part of experimenting. this means building a dummy cartridge in order to figure out how much weight bp is compacted in the case, and then compressed with a wad, and the final OAL with a seated greased bullet. this is the first requirement for building consistent bp cartridges. take a spent primer and seat in a case backwards and use that to build a dummy cartridge.

you will absolutely need to address between the shot fouling control by blow tubing or wiping, try both, see what works best for you and yer gun. i vastly prefer wiping for both greasers and PPBs. enjoy the cartridge build process, good luck, have fun!

all this !!!! sounds complicated but its not - just work through this post step by step - theres a lot of info here and all good.

[bigted]

Only thing I will add to this great totorial is a boolit that I use to pretty good success,

My absolute favorite plinking load is kinda like this;

... put 55 grains 2Fg Old E powder in the case.
... install a .060 vegi wad over the powder
... install a playing card over the vegi wad
... place a 1/8th cork wad in next
... cover with another playing card disc
... now take your SPG lubed boolit (Lee # 459-405 hollow base) and fill the base with crisco shortening
... install your Lee boolit on your wad stack
... now seat this deep enough in your case to slightly compress the powder enough for your boolits ogive to just KISS the rifling.

No further action need occur with the exception of putting a slight bit of pressure on the trigger on a cocked n loaded rifle.

When you begin playing with this, you will get a slightly squirrelly grin on your mug. After this ... play with adding 5 grains at a time till you discover THE load of powder that gives you best accuracy at 100 yards.

Now play with the wad pack. Delete and add till you discover whay the rifle will tell you.

Next try different makes of powder till the rifle tells you what powder it wants ( bettin the Old E will remain king ... maybe Swiss but I bet Ol E will suffice).

Fouling control is king. Get a great procedure and stick with it for returning your bore to the very same condition every shot!

Next would be trying different boolits AND seating depth.

On and on. The fun never gets old. I still love the battle and pouring lead. I have over 100 molds now and still wonder about more designs yet to try.

This is just the 45 rifles ... wait till you add 50's, 43's, 40's and 38's gosh the fun keeps on giving.

Can you say ADDICTION?

[rfd]

wad stacks are fun for reduced loads, and yet can be extremely accurate.

a 200 yard match winning PPB load - 66 grains of swiss 1-1/2f under a pair of .025" milk carton wads, a pair of 1/8" hard felt wads, another pair of .025" milk carton wads, an accurate molds .443" 1:20 alloy 405 grain slick wrapped in fidelity onion skin patching w/.035" compession, starline fire formed brass, standard federal primer. the PPB is seated .12" into the case mouth.

244862

[bigted]

Is that wet patched? Good looking round!

[rfd]

dry patching, never ever wet.

i also experimented with greasing the felt wads, but there was no difference in both accuracy and between shot fouling control.

that load did well under 2moa @ 200 yards if i was on my game.

[indian joe]

Only thing I will add to this great totorial is a boolit that I use to pretty good success,

My absolute favorite plinking load is kinda like this;

... put 55 grains 2Fg Old E powder in the case.
... install a .060 vegi wad over the powder
... install a playing card over the vegi wad
... place a 1/8th cork wad in next
... cover with another playing card disc
... now take your SPG lubed boolit (Lee # 459-405 hollow base) and fill the base with crisco shortening
... install your Lee boolit on your wad stack
... now seat this deep enough in your case to slightly compress the powder enough for your boolits ogive to just KISS the rifling.

No further action need occur with the exception of putting a slight bit of pressure on the trigger on a cocked n loaded rifle.

When you begin playing with this, you will get a slightly squirrelly grin on your mug. After this ... play with adding 5 grains at a time till you discover THE load of powder that gives you best accuracy at 100 yards.

Now play with the wad pack. Delete and add till you discover whay the rifle will tell you.

Next try different makes of powder till the rifle tells you what powder it wants ( bettin the Old E will remain king ... maybe Swiss but I bet Ol E will suffice).

Fouling control is king. Get a great procedure and stick with it for returning your bore to the very same condition every shot!

Next would be trying different boolits AND seating depth.

On and on. The fun never gets old. I still love the battle and pouring lead. I have over 100 molds now and still wonder about more designs yet to try.

This is just the 45 rifles ... wait till you add 50's, 43's, 40's and 38's gosh the fun keeps on giving.

Can you say ADDICTION?

Bigted
With a pedersoli barrel and that 405 LEE boolit he is gonna wonder what all the fuss was about - my pedersoli barrelled Uberti 76 will shoot ten inside two inches at 100 yd on the rare occasion I am good enough to do it - no cleaning - no blow tube - just poke along steady and shoot em - I have modified that mold some because of the rounded nose and that big long magazine tube - its my easy load for my three 45's - powder, poly wad, compression die, boolit - simple! - and those big lube grooves will let me shoot a box full without fouling problems at all.

[Carrier]

Only thing I will add to this great totorial is a boolit that I use to pretty good success,

My absolute favorite plinking load is kinda like this;

... put 55 grains 2Fg Old E powder in the case.
... install a .060 vegi wad over the powder
... install a playing card over the vegi wad
... place a 1/8th cork wad in next
... cover with another playing card disc
... now take your SPG lubed boolit (Lee # 459-405 hollow base) and fill the base with crisco shortening
... install your Lee boolit on your wad stack
... now seat this deep enough in your case to slightly compress the powder enough for your boolits ogive to just KISS the rifling.

No further action need occur with the exception of putting a slight bit of pressure on the trigger on a cocked n loaded rifle.

When you begin playing with this, you will get a slightly squirrelly grin on your mug. After this ... play with adding 5 grains at a time till you discover THE load of powder that gives you best accuracy at 100 yards.

Now play with the wad pack. Delete and add till you discover whay the rifle will tell you.

Next try different makes of powder till the rifle tells you what powder it wants ( bettin the Old E will remain king ... maybe Swiss but I bet Ol E will suffice).

Fouling control is king. Get a great procedure and stick with it for returning your bore to the very same condition every shot!

Next would be trying different boolits AND seating depth.

On and on. The fun never gets old. I still love the battle and pouring lead. I have over 100 molds now and still wonder about more designs yet to try.

This is just the 45 rifles ... wait till you add 50's, 43's, 40's and 38's gosh the fun keeps on giving.

Can you say ADDICTION?

I also use the Lee 405 HB. I have been using that bullet powder coated with a 50/50 beeswax and olive oil and have had no leading or fouling issues. I’m just curious as to the reason of using crisco in the hollow base as I’m new to this.

[country gent]

A modified case can help determine seating depth and powder charge. I have made and used them. Basically your making case with a collet neck.

You need a Scribe, square, small piece of angle, and a dremil with cutoff wheel. Lay out ink or a marker help a lot.

Ink the case down the body and all the way around.
Lay out one line with the angle down the length of the body.
With the square mark a line 3/8"- 7/16" from case mouth ( this is the collet portion of the neck)
Now mark a line 1/2" below this one.
Right side line goes to case mouth left side connects the 2 lines scribed. What you want is a 4/8 section of mouth and a "window" below it.
With the dremil cut right side line from bottom line thru case mouth. Cut left side line from line to line.
cut lines from cut to cut forming window.
Deburr edges inside and out

To use hand seat bullet long and chamber carefully closing action , carefully open action and remove round. Pinch the neck and measure overall length. then measure down from case neck to base of bullet in window. This is where powder charge, wads, and compression need to end up -.005-.010.

THe split neck allows overall length to be found and you can mathematically figure base point. The added window allows the base location to be measured.

[rfd]

when i played with greasers i made up dummies using a hornady OAL gauge to precisely set the cartridge length. from there it was relatively easy to figure powder charge, compression w/wad, bullet seat depth.

[Nobade]

That works quite well.
I go for the really cheap route, just press a bullet into the rifling with a wooden dowel and measure to the base of it with the depth end of a caliper. Or if you don't have one, measure from the muzzle with your dowel and then again to the breech face without the bullet.

[flynth]

I haven't got much experience with my Pedersoli Sharps. I probably shot a total of 300 bullets through it yet, but I can say that my enjoyment of the rifle increased substantially when I did the following:
- I tried to lower the number of variables in the load I test. I chose a Lyman 457132 Postell bullet cast from an alloy with BHN between 8 and 10(I found the bullets I was buying online were made with pure lead and I believe my accuracy was suffering due to bullet nose slump.). This is with just a thin card wad and a thin wax wad cut directly from a sheet of wax with the shell. You can get thin sheets of wax like this from bee keeping suppliers. The one I use is called "medium brood foundation". I'm not sure if the wax does anything at all - I put this load together based on a Paul Matthews book. I'm not currently using a lube cookie and I'm using a blow tube, wiping with a piece of dry paper kitchen towel between shots. The bullet lube I use is from the same book and consists of 2 parts wax, 1 part neatsfoot oil, 1 part potassium soap (the book has Murphy's oil soap as last ingredient, but I can't get it here so I use a liquid potassium soap bought in garden supplies - if you choose to make this lube mix well first two ingredients and add the third one slowly while mixing). The lube works well for finger lubing.
- I started to pull the rifle into my shoulder and generally hold it with more force. Early on I held it too gently. The very first time I used a firmer hold my groups shrank from 5 inches to around 2-2.5 inches in 100m (The gun is much more capable, this size group is reflecting my shooting more than the gun or the load).

Also, I highly recommend you read some of the books on the subject recommended by others on the forum. My favourite book if you're looking to shoot grease groove bullets is "Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A Matthews. If you're more interested in paper patching the same author wrote "The Paper Jacket" also a good book. Another good book is "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of The Old West" by Mike Venturino.