Expander diameter for cast??

[yondering]

This question is directed at 44man and others who are really getting good accuracy out of their wheelguns: What expander diameter do you use for softer cast boolits? Boolit diameter minus .002"? .001"?
With my 45 Colt, I'm trying to find the right compromise between adequate neck tension and not damaging the boolit base. This is more an issue with my mild plinking loads; my heavy loads are hard cast, and mostly with a gas check boolit anyway, so the base isn't damaged.
With my softer plinking loads (mostly ACWW), if I pull the loaded boolits I find that the sharp edge of the base is sort of rounded over a little, and sometimes the boolit diameter is smaller, being sized down by the case from too much neck tension. This is not a problem with harder boolits, either WCWW or commercial cast. My expanders are all .450" or .449", in my Dillon and RCBS dies, which I think is probably too small for soft cast boolits. Anybody know where/how to get larger expanders?

[44man]

That should tell you that harder boolits work better! :drinks: Once you lose case tension in a revolver you lose accuracy.
I can't tell you what my expander measures because it is a fixed one in the Hornady die but the inside diameter of a sized and expanded case is .425" using a caliper, so it gives .003" with a .431" boolit.
My .45 Colt cases are .449" for a .4536 boolit. A little over .002" tension.
You start with the right size boolits so why size them when seating because they are soft????
Bump up does NOT work if you want accuracy. It might work to prevent leading or something else.
As soon as you start to expand revolver brass larger to protect boolits, you lose accuracy even with fast powders.

[ktw]

I shoot for no more than boolit diameter -.001" with soft lead, plain based bullets.

In 45 colt I have been using expanders from the Lyman 310 die sets. I have a .451, .452 and .454. Generally a .452 expander to seat a soft, plain based .4525 bullet for a .452 revolver throat.


My expanders are all .450" or .449", in my Dillon and RCBS dies, which I think is probably too small for soft cast boolits. Anybody know where/how to get larger expanders?

Hone/turn down an oversize one
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/39
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/46

or buy a custom sized, M-Type expansion plug from someone like Buffalo Arms Co
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,408.html

-ktw

[Bass Ackward]

One of the biggest reasons against PB is that they are harder to load. That is also one of the reasons for a GC.

So while you are looking for a major formula, you won't find one for multiple reasons.

What is a soft bullet? I define soft as 12 BHN and less. Medium 12 - 22 BHN. Hard as 22BHN and up.

How uniformly your beller belled your cases, to the anneal on your cases, to how well your dies align your bullet in the case determines how much damage you may do to a PB bullet.

So from there, you can see that a good, true set-up might be able to have .004 tension and not cause any damage. Or you might have a sloppy set that couldn't load zero tension without damaging the base.

You just have to learn what it is that you have to work with and adjust accordingly.

[missionary5155]

I load alot of soft boolits (30-1). I bell my cases sufficiently so the the boolit enters without any damage to the base. I use boolits at least snug fit in the cylinder mouths and some are .002 fatter (Colt New Service 44WCF). They do not lead and they shoot as good as I think they should. 2-3 inches hand held sitting on my posterior at 20 yards and they do expand on cantact.
I do not have a Crono here but my 357´s get 6-7 grains Unique... my 38 specials get 3.5- 5.5 grains Unique. 44WCF gets 8-10 grains Unique.
+++ to Bass Ackward... procedure and consistency amount for many problems. Bad equipment can also be a factor... But if the boolit fills the chamber and is soft enough for the load it will obturate and seal off the gasses.

[454PB]

There is no set measurement, it varies by caliber. My .44 magnum expander is .425" for a .006" grip using .431" boolits. My .454 Casull expander is .448" for .004" grip using .452" boolits. Expanding any larger can cause the boolits of the unfired rounds to creep out of the case in recoil.

Another consideration is the work hardening of the brass as BA mentioned. At what point is it time to anneal them to keep case grip uniform? I haven't a clue, I use my brass until it develops mouth splits, then either pitch it or trim it for .44 Special and .45 Colt brass.

[44man]

Bass is correct again. How you load and the equipment means a lot.
I find 20 to 22 BHN will open the brass as you seat without sizing the boolits. I have seated all kinds of alloys but DID NOT CRIMP, then pulled them to measure. Soft boolits need much larger expanders and that destroys case tension unless light, fast powder loads are used. Not my cup of tea! :coffee:
But to squeeze down a soft boolit and depend on obturation to refit the boolit to the throats and bore just does not work. But you see the vast range of accuracy requirements when one is happy with 2" to 3" at 20 yd's and I grit my teeth with that at 100 yd's.
I go with the flow when someone is happy with their gun because everyone is different. Accuracy from a revolver is different to me then it is for a lot of others. I have found a good revolver will equal or better a lot of rifles. There are only a few simple rules to follow and it is as easy to load for super accuracy as it is to throw together poor loads.
Anyway, when someone says such and such shoots good for them, I always have to ask "What is good?" If someone says "consistant 1" groups at 100 yd's" I am all ears but if it is 3" at 25 yd's, I turn the page. Nothing against that or the fellow, but that is not what I want so never take it personal.
It is bad enough that even a hard cast will enter the rifling for a distance without turning, before a grip on the rifling takes effect and spins it. The upper part of a recovered boolit always has land marks wider then the rifling. Soft boolits can go a lot farther before spinning up and can leave a gap for hot gas to go past the boolit. Obturation of a boolit means nothing when it skids down the bore too far. Gas checks help but not as much as one thinks if the boolit is the right hardness. You do not want the land marks on the base of the boolit wider then the rifling. The boolit must take the spin before the entire boolit enters the barrel.
For accuracy, fit the boolit and make it hard enough for the velocity you want to shoot. Even a good dose of fast powder with it's high initial chamber pressure can destroy a boolit if it is too soft. Slow powders are more gentle at the start. Engage the rifling and then PUSH! [smilie=1:

[yondering]

I find 20 to 22 BHN will open the brass as you seat without sizing the boolits. I have seated all kinds of alloys but DID NOT CRIMP, then pulled them to measure. Soft boolits need much larger expanders and that destroys case tension unless light, fast powder loads are used. Not my cup of tea! :coffee:
Thats what I'm talking about, right there. I've found the same thing, that soft (12 BHN or a little less, as Bass said) boolits need a little less neck tension than what my dies are giving me.


For accuracy, fit the boolit and make it hard enough for the velocity you want to shoot. Even a good dose of fast powder with it's high initial chamber pressure can destroy a boolit if it is too soft. Slow powders are more gentle at the start. Engage the rifling and then PUSH! [smilie=1:

My boolits do fit the throats, at .4525" to .453" (throats are .453"), and my goal has been to cast them hard enough for the velocity requirements, but no harder. For heavy loads I've been using WC or heat treated WW, but for my 1,000fps plinking loads (260gr + 10gr Unique) I was hoping to use ACWW. Seems like they should be plenty hard enough for that velocity, but the neck tension damages the bases. The M die mentioned above would probably help with that, so I may have to do some experimenting there. Recoil isn't much with this load, so I've gone to a much lighter crimp, which helps a lot, but still not perfect.

I'd like to be able to load boolits soft enough for hollow points to expand, I just need to figure out the neck tension. For the Dillon dies I guess I'd need to get a 480 Ruger expander and turn it down to size, since I don't think a .458" expander is available in the right length.

[Bass Ackward]

There is so much that goes into cast. Another biggie is bullet choice. Ever wonder why some bullets have bevels or wide base bands?

Brass today is not made for PB bullets with the tapered sides. So the more weight that your choice puts "inside" the case, the more difficult it's going to be no matter how careful you are. The thinner the base band, the more difficult or the harder the bullet needs to be.

[44man]

Bass, I have an exception to that rule. This is my .475 boolit. It is BHN 22 and I shoot it at 1330 fps. It weighs 420 gr's. It is easily my most accurate boolit, having shot under 1" at 100 yd's and is the one I shoot cans with at 200 yd's. From my BFR.
The base band is smaller then the others but the rifling starts to engrave on half the nose. This boolit also has a wide start to the engraving on the nose as it tries to go straight but is spinning before the base enters the rifling.
When I cut the cherry, I just started to cut grease grooves with no thought about anything and was shocked at it's accuracy. It also shoots sub 1", 50 yd groups from Whitworth's converted .475 SRH but he needs 1/2 gr more powder because the twist is slower then mine.
This is the boolit that shot the 5/8", 50 yd group in my avitar but has done better since.

[ktw]

for my 1,000fps plinking loads (260gr + 10gr Unique) I was hoping to use ACWW. Seems like they should be plenty hard enough for that velocity, but the neck tension damages the bases. The M die mentioned above would probably help with that, so I may have to do some experimenting there.

I tend to use 8 BHN range scrap over Unique for no more than 1000 fps in my 45 Colt plinking/practice loads. The application is good dependable accuracy in an open sighted handgun for offhand shooting practice. I want to use up the softer alloy. I don't want to invest in gas checks for volume handgun shooting. I am not trying to turn a handgun into a short rifle. The M die expanders are very useful for cutting down on bullet damage in alloys this soft.

I have also found that sizer dies from different manufacturers reduce the case neck diameter to varying degrees. In my experience the Lyman 310 MR dies size the smallest diameter neck. An RCBS carbide die tends to size down a lot. A Lyman AA sizer die leaves the largest case neck diameter after sizing.

-ktw

[44man]

KTW, true, all dies are not equal. You have used your head to determine differences. You have to change as boolit hardness changes.
Since I hunt with mine and the meplats are large, I do NOT want expansion that will limit penetration. Too much expansion from big bore revolvers is not good.
The boolit I posted has done 40" in wet newspaper with a perfectly straight path and a large channel.
From the .44 up, a hollow point or quick expanding bullet/boolit is just not good for big game. We don't have the power to keep them penetrating.

[yondering]

44man, I agree about using hard cast for hunting; as I stated in my original post. I feel that I have those hard cast heavy loads pretty well dialed in, and don't have any issues with them.

It sounds like KTW and I are on the same page, in wanting to use up soft alloy for plinking. I tend to get leading with my plinking load, when using softer boolits. Now, this is with a .452+" bore, .453" throats, and .453" boolits, so I don't think it's a boolit fit issue, until the boolit gets sized down too much by the brass. These aren't hunting loads, but are the majority of what gets fired through my guns.

I saw a chart in "Precision Shooting" for expander ball diameter for different calibers and different bullet/boolit types, and wondered if any of you guys had come up with similar a similar rule-of-thumb.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I have an exception to that rule. This is my .475 boolit. It is BHN 22 and I shoot it at 1330 fps.


Jim,

I was speaking about reloading a soft PB not a rock. I said nothing about accuracy. Soft, thin base bands are more likely to be deformed easier if your cases are tapered and you are seating deeply.

Mold rocks, and your bands can be thinner. OK? :grin:

[ktw]

wanting to use up soft alloy for plinking. I tend to get leading with my plinking load, when using softer boolits. Now, this is with a .452+" bore, .453" throats, and .453" boolits, so I don't think it's a boolit fit issue, until the boolit gets sized down too much by the brass.

Another way to skin the cat: My range scrap alloy will oven heat treat up into a range of 16-18 BHN. I get acceptable results with them air cooled and I usually don't bother. If you don't mind the extra step, oven heat treating may be another way to solve your problem.

BTW, after checking my notes, I had the sizing dies listed wrong in my post above.

Outside neck diameter at case mouth after sizing
Die
RCBS carbide....... .4615"
Lyman AA............ .4645"
Lyman 310.......... .4720"
Gun
unsized FA97...... .4770"
unsized Win94.... .4800"

-ktw

[44man]

Hey bass, :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2: I like rocks1