Cleaned up British Rifles in Astan

[Combat Diver]

Got three Enfields in this week here in the armory.
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Top Down before going back to the team that captured them.
SMLE BSA 1915
SMLE BSA 1918
No.4 Mk1 BSA 1943
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Group collection with those in my shop. (no Khyber Pass guns in group)
SMLE Enfield 1914 with mag cut off
SMLE BSA 1915
P14 Remington est 1917
SMLE BSA 1918
No.4 Mk1 BSA 1943
No.4 Mk1* Longbranch 1944 (muzzle cut back due damage)
SMLE GRI 1955
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CD

[PAT303]

With 16 years experience in theatre I hope you write a book, and those rifles command serious dollars here in Oz.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's quite a variety, when one thinks about it. Early WW I through WW II, British, American, Canadian, Indian.
Amazing how these old rifles continue to soldier on, and remain effective weapons.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Now you`ve got my mouth watering over those rifles, particulary the P 14 and those No 4 Mk 1`s.Robert

[bruce drake]

None of them will be able to be returned to the States. Last time I went over there, the legal restriction by the US and NATO was that only items that classified as an Antique under the BATFE definition (Pre 1898 designs) would be allowed to be shipped home after the soldier got approval from their local Command and the JAG office. in the last 8 years, I'm sure its probably gotten more restrictive.

Bruce

[RED BEAR]

Now thats a darn shame. Maybe send it as scrap wood and metal. Or maybe finished machine parts. Just kidding don't want to get in trouble.

[bruce drake]

I agree, I would have left my 09-10 Kandahar deployment with a Winchester-made .303 P14, a 7.62x51 Ishapore Enfield and a couple of old SMLEs if the rules had been different. Regular US soldiers have not really ever had a chance to bring back war trophies since the Grenada/Panama era.

[Speedo66]

None of them will be able to be returned to the States. Last time I went over there, the legal restriction by the US and NATO was that only items that classified as an Antique under the BATFE definition (Pre 1898 designs) would be allowed to be shipped home after the soldier got approval from their local Command and the JAG office. in the last 8 years, I'm sure its probably gotten more restrictive.

Bruce

Start looking for 1896 Swedish Mausers.... lol

[higgins]

What became of all the magazines? I'm sure removing them is part of the official process of clearing them, but I hope they've been stored somewhere that they can be reunited with the rifles; some of the magazines may even have the rifle SN stamped or engraved in them.

[Combat Diver]

What became of all the magazines? I'm sure removing them is part of the official process of clearing them, but I hope they've been stored somewhere that they can be reunited with the rifles; some of the magazines may even have the rifle SN stamped or engraved in them.
Of about 18 Enfields I've seen in the last year, only one had a magazine. Most of these are captured in caches where the magazine was removed elsewhere.

CD

[Bloodman14]

Could they not be brought back as DEWATs? (Deactivated War Trophy)

[Texas by God]

Horse hockey that our fighting men can't bring back captured non -automatic weapons! Where's the trust?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[reddhawkk]

Too bad, those are good rifles. Sad statement about our political climate.

[Combat Diver]

Could they not be brought back as DEWATs? (Deactivated War Trophy)

Service members can put in to have them demilled and brought home. Contractors can not.

CD

[bruce drake]

Not worth the headache to deal with destroying perfectly functional firearms. And yes, it is B-S that the BATF has gotten to the point of removing overseas war-trophy rifles from service-members.

[Combat Diver]

Not BATFE but Congress with Arms Export Control Act of 1976. Its in 27 CFR § 447.52 and then DoD regulations to the domino effect. At least in Afghanistan pre1898 can be mailed home. No dice on those in Iraq. Had a French 1886 Lebel made in 1895 there. Just located a Magazine, Lee-Enfield Mk1 over here that I'm working on obtaining. Still in very good condition to include volley sights and cleaning rod.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/447.52

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CD

[Markopolo]

did I mention, I love your pictures... yes the rifles are awesome.. but some of the other stuff is your pictures is also cool.. stuff that most of us havent seen or touched for 40-50 yeats turns up..

244812

what I would love to see, is a short video of your "shop"... messy and worked in, on any given day.. just kinda looking around. describing what we are looking at? that would be very cool... kinda a "whats in my shop today" sorta thing, posted for us old retired military folk to drool over and remember... i would subscribe..... i remember that video of the Bren you had and shooting it.. i watched that 3 times and showed many old buddies...

can you do something like that CD? for us old dogs?

marko

[Combat Diver]

did I mention, I love your pictures... yes the rifles are awesome.. but some of the other stuff is your pictures is also cool.. stuff that most of us havent seen or touched for 40-50 yeats turns up..

244812

what I would love to see, is a short video of your "shop"... messy and worked in, on any given day.. just kinda looking around. describing what we are looking at? that would be very cool... kinda a "whats in my shop today" sorta thing, posted for us old retired military folk to drool over and remember... i would subscribe..... i remember that video of the Bren you had and shooting it.. i watched that 3 times and showed many old buddies...

can you do something like that CD? for us old dogs?

marko

I'll see about a video. The items you circled top left are the bottom stocks of a Romanian PSL and SMLE. Far right is a M2 HB .50 cal and bottom is a 84mm M3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifle.

CD

[fgd135]

[QUOTE=Combat Diver;4680170]Got three Enfields in this week here in the armory.
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Hey,Nice!

[corbinace]

I too, was marveling at the other stuff in the images. I spent more time ogling the stuff on the benches, than I did the centerpieces.

[Bigslug]

NEAT!

What's your overall impression of the life they've been leading? Have these things actually been in more or less constant use for 70+ years? In and out of caches? What's the typical indigenous maintenance regimen?

[Combat Diver]

NEAT!

What's your overall impression of the life they've been leading? Have these things actually been in more or less constant use for 70+ years? In and out of caches? What's the typical indigenous maintenance regimen?

Most of these are found in caches. So second to third echelon use. AKs still see the most use now days.

CD

[Bigslug]

Most of these are found in caches. So second to third echelon use. AKs still see the most use now days.

CD

Hard to fathom that the best stashes of early SMLEs left in the world might be in the hills of Afghanistan. Probably a better climate to preserve them in than the Belgian lowlands.

Looks like you've got a mix of what I gather to be unaltered guns with unit discs and stacking swivels remaining, and what I gather to be late- or post-WWI arsenal/armorer reworks with those features removed. Is any of the early stuff still sporting the volley sights?

The variation has me pondering by what and how many channels they all got there.

[Combat Diver]

Hard to fathom that the best stashes of early SMLEs left in the world might be in the hills of Afghanistan. Probably a better climate to preserve them in than the Belgian lowlands.

Looks like you've got a mix of what I gather to be unaltered guns with unit discs and stacking swivels remaining, and what I gather to be late- or post-WWI arsenal/armorer reworks with those features removed. Is any of the early stuff still sporting the volley sights?

The variation has me pondering by what and how many channels they all got there.


Only they LE Mk1 and P14s have the volley/dial sights.

CD

[Multigunner]

"No.4 Mk1* Longbranch 1944 (muzzle cut back due damage)"

Years ago I ran across an article with photos of some African game wardens carrying No.4 rifles with the muzzles cut back in a similar manner.
Story was the local government at that time shortened No.4 rifles sold for civilian use so these could not be fitted with the grenade launchers, because the Energia anti tank grenade was still available to insurgents down there and very effective against all but the most modern armored vehicles.

In Australia and nearby British possessions LE rifles sold off for civilian or constabularly use were often shortened to prevent mounting a bayonet.

[Bloodman14]

CD, there has gotto be a way to get those home. Ship to an FFL with a C&R? I am grasping at straws here!:-|

[Combat Diver]

CD, there has gotto be a way to get those home. Ship to an FFL with a C&R? I am grasping at straws here!:-|

I've got a C&R too. Those made before 1898 are classified as antiques and can be sent home. My Martini-Henry Mk III made in 1881 should be delivered to the house today. Another reason I'm trying to get that MLE.

CD

[Combat Diver]

Built a rifle rack for the British/Afghan connection in the shop.

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CD

[Bloodman14]

Disassemble, and ship as parts?

[Combat Diver]

Can't ship gun parts or ammo components :(

CD

[merlin101]

I've got a C&R too. Those made before 1898 are classified as antiques and can be sent home. My Martini-Henry Mk III made in 1881 should be delivered to the house today. Another reason I'm trying to get that MLE.

CD

Nope , it hasn't arrived. Maybe you forgot you moved, I'll PM you your new address seems I know it well!
Keep up the posts, always something cool.

[quasi]

ship them to Canada as military aid.:bigsmyl2:

[Tripplebeards]

Strap them to a camel and teach it to swim.

[gunnie]

I certainly enjoyed my stints in the Ghan and saw plenty of old & unusual guns. Pulled a lot of 'cached' guns, a much more preferred action than dealing with IED's!
The best part of such activities was getting to fire these relics. Smallest resurrected & shot was a Browning 25ACP, largest was a 12.7mm Dshka. The Dooshka was a hoot to fire. Had a higher RoF than Ma Duece & one hell of a muzzle flash with the muzzle brake these guns were fitted with.

Had ammo come in for identification when I was the Lev1 Wpn Tech Int EOD No1. Took me a few hours but managed to track it down to a product of Yugoslavia, the M76.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for sharing. As a civilian it’s something that I wouldn’t realize still happens today. Cool collection..,you can’t keep but get to play with. I’m jealous.

[Tripplebeards]

I need a wood stock set for a 1907 lee enfield Shtle MK*** to bad you can’t bring stuff back. You’d have a heck of a business.

[Combat Diver]

Went to the bazaar and bought this 17" bayonet. Its a British Pattern 1913 for the Pattern 1914 rifle. Both the rifle and bayonet were made by Remington Arms. All these bayonets were made by Remington. This on in Sep 16' to go along with the 1917 produced rifle. The US also used this bayonet with the following arms. M1917 rifle, M1897, M12 and M1200 shotguns (7 total trench guns). At least I can take the bayonet home :)
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CD

[Bigslug]

Hmmm. . .it's an American rifle and an American bayonet made by company well known as being American.

Any chance you could say that you originally deployed with the thing? (You HAVE been over there for a while. . .)

OR, you could add a no-drill scope mount and a five dollar air rifle scope, wrap it in some Ghille cloth, put it in a Pelican case and say it's your issued M24 or M40 - which are ALSO stamped that they were made by Remington, just sayin'. . .

Heck, James Paris Lee WAS an American! (while we're at it, so was Maxim. . .) All those Lee Enfields just want to go back to their ancestral homeland!

Good chance the millennial in charge of inspecting your duffel bag would buy any of these stories ;)

[Tripplebeards]

Awesome! I need a bayonet for my M1917 I’m restoring. I just stained the front unissued hand guard to match the rest of the gun. I have to resort to eBay for my parts.lol

Here’s mine...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?378378-1917-Winchester-enfield-project


Looks like the bluing is completely worn off on that Remington.

[Combat Diver]

Awesome! I need a bayonet for my M1917 I’m restoring. I just stained the front unissued hand guard to match the rest of the gun. I have to resort to eBay for my parts.lol

Here’s mine...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?378378-1917-Winchester-enfield-project

Looks like the bluing is completely worn off on that Remington.

Nice rebuild. Bluing is still under the wood. Just the exposed metal is worn.

CD

[Combat Diver]

Acquired another No. 1 Mk III* today, 1945 GRI.

253455

CD

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Very interesting. Must be a story that goes with this one? Who did the leatherwork (a native Afghan?) and for what purpose? Does it have the standard detachable magazine?

[Combat Diver]

Very interesting. Must be a story that goes with this one? Who did the leatherwork (a native Afghan?) and for what purpose? Does it have the standard detachable magazine?

Leather usually means cracks in the wood or to protect the wood, down locally. Came without the mag. Most of the Enfields that are brought in do not have them.

CD

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I always enjoy your posts and photos of these old rifles. I think it was back in the early '70s (?) when the Russians made the first mistake (before ours) of intervening in Afghanistan, and they were fighting the Mujahdeen (spelling?) who gave a pretty good account of themselves with the Lee Enfields, most of which seemed to be the No.1 Mk.III version. It was also the heyday of Soldier of Fortune Magazine, and every month they had at least one article about the on-going war with lots of good color photos. Since the Russians were using AKs and AKMs the Afghans seemed to have some luck picking them off at longer ranges.

I also read a couple of articles about the Khyber Pass rifles and the gun industry in Peshwar (Sp.?) on the Afghan-Pakistani border area. It might have been in the same magazine, but I kind of think it might have been in National Geographic. Anyway, they showed shops full of native copies of all sorts of rifles and handguns, mostly Lee Enfield and Webley copies, but they even made fully auto weapons and anti-tank rockets. The article stated that the Japanese liked to go there as tourists so they could fire weapons unobtainable in Japan. One guy, as I recall, paid a couple of hundred dollars to fire an anti-tank rocket at a tree. The rocket fired but didn't explode upon impact, and everyone just shrugged and said, "Oh, well.." but no refund was offered. Most fascinating was what they were able to do with just hand tools, especially files. There was a photo of a young guy holding a piece of metal between his bare toes filing out a Lee Enfield trigger guard/magazine well. This was now long ago, and the articles said that although the workmanship and imitation were impressive, the steel used wasn't necessarily up to snuff. It was very common for them to use chopped movie film as propellant in their cartridges. I do recall several batches of the Khyber rifles being sold over here with the admonition not to shoot them.

Fast forward a few years (still a long time ago) to '81-'82 when I attended the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing School. There were a couple of young Afghans attending. Seemed like nice fellows, but very businesslike and not much time for socializing. I chatted with an instructor about them, and he said that during the 5 years he had worked there they almost always had a presence of 2-5 students. They almost never took the entire course, but were there to learn specific things, mostly centered in the machine shop, design and function classes, and sometimes welding/brazing. In other words, metal work.

I guess the Afghans got through the Lee Enfield stage of weaponry, stashed them all, and are probably now using the AKs and M16s? You're living in an interesting place at an interesting time in history. If I was you, I'd take lots and lots of photos of the weapons and write a book when I came home for keeps. Too bad about the Peshwar people being so supportive of the Taliban and Al Queda. I imagine they've pretty much been bombed into permanent hostility, and I guess I'll never get to visit and witness their gunsmithing abilities first hand. (Too old to go anyway.)

[Combat Diver]

I always enjoy your posts and photos of these old rifles. I think it was back in the early '70s (?) when the Russians made the first mistake (before ours) of intervening in Afghanistan, and they were fighting the Mujahdeen (spelling?) who gave a pretty good account of themselves with the Lee Enfields, most of which seemed to be the No.1 Mk.III version. It was also the heyday of Soldier of Fortune Magazine, and every month they had at least one article about the on-going war with lots of good color photos. Since the Russians were using AKs and AKMs the Afghans seemed to have some luck picking them off at longer ranges.

I also read a couple of articles about the Khyber Pass rifles and the gun industry in Peshwar (Sp.?) on the Afghan-Pakistani border area. It might have been in the same magazine, but I kind of think it might have been in National Geographic. Anyway, they showed shops full of native copies of all sorts of rifles and handguns, mostly Lee Enfield and Webley copies, but they even made fully auto weapons and anti-tank rockets. The article stated that the Japanese liked to go there as tourists so they could fire weapons unobtainable in Japan. One guy, as I recall, paid a couple of hundred dollars to fire an anti-tank rocket at a tree. The rocket fired but didn't explode upon impact, and everyone just shrugged and said, "Oh, well.." but no refund was offered. Most fascinating was what they were able to do with just hand tools, especially files. There was a photo of a young guy holding a piece of metal between his bare toes filing out a Lee Enfield trigger guard/magazine well. This was now long ago, and the articles said that although the workmanship and imitation were impressive, the steel used wasn't necessarily up to snuff. It was very common for them to use chopped movie film as propellant in their cartridges. I do recall several batches of the Khyber rifles being sold over here with the admonition not to shoot them.


Fast forward a few years (still a long time ago) to '81-'82 when I attended the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing School. There were a couple of young Afghans attending. Seemed like nice fellows, but very businesslike and not much time for socializing. I chatted with an instructor about them, and he said that during the 5 years he had worked there they almost always had a presence of 2-5 students. They almost never took the entire course, but were there to learn specific things, mostly centered in the machine shop, design and function classes, and sometimes welding/brazing. In other words, metal work.

I guess the Afghans got through the Lee Enfield stage of weaponry, stashed them all, and are probably now using the AKs and M16s? You're living in an interesting place at an interesting time in history. If I was you, I'd take lots and lots of photos of the weapons and write a book when I came home for keeps. Too bad about the Peshwar people being so supportive of the Taliban and Al Queda. I imagine they've pretty much been bombed into permanent hostility, and I guess I'll never get to visit and witness their gunsmithing abilities first hand. (Too old to go anyway.)

You're pretty much spot on.

CD

[john.k]

The factories are in Pakistan,in the self administered tribal area......in recent times the Paki Govt has cracked down on them,and there is now widespread unemployment in the industry......The main products are copies of Russian guns ,and also auto shotguns are popular.Up to quite recently,it was possible to visit on a day tour from Islamabad and buy guns to take back.......but the Paki police have been relieveing buyers of their guns as soon as they cross the border,and the Tribal Police also stop and warn visitors not to buy guns.....perfectly OK for residents of the NW tribal area,just no outsiders......who were the main customers for the gunshops....Hard times for the factories ,and shops.

[tbx-4]

... I think it was back in the early '70s (?) when the Russians made the first mistake (before ours) of intervening in Afghanistan, and they were fighting the Mujahdeen (spelling?) who gave a pretty good account of themselves with the Lee Enfields... It was also the heyday of Soldier of Fortune Magazine

If I may, I'd like to help you correct a few things...
1. It was the Soviets technically speaking not Russians.
2. The USSR - Afghan war was from 1979 to 1989
3. SOF magazine started in 1975. SOF "hayday" was in the '80s

Back then my main reading was SOF, SWAT and Shotgun News. Or watching movies like Wild Geese, High Velocity, Dogs of War (first Christopher Walken movie for me) and Final Option (Who Dares, Wins).

And I remember the whole Afghan war fiasco. SOF actually had guys there on the ground doing reports. That's where I saw the first AK-74, SOF reporter got a hold of one and did a detailed report with great photos.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thank you for your corrections.