H110 issues, not burning!

[Tripplebeards]

I bought a can of H110 last summer and know I've used it without any issues in my 77/44 using Lyman devastators down to 19 grains of powder. Well, I loaded up 36 rounds of J words yesterday with it and headed to the range this morning. I did a ladder test starting at 20.7 grains of powder and worked up in .5 grain increments to 22.7 grains. I used hornady xtp's, a federal large magnum pistol match primer...like always, loaded to 1.587", and gave them a good heavy crimp with my Lee collet style factory crimp die.

Every one of the loads fired and exited my S&W 329NG's 2.5" barrel but barely recoiled. There was a lot of dirty smoke build up on my cylinder. The gun had a stinky smoke comming out of it like I was lighting 4 th of July snakes and it was spitting out unburnt powder all over the place. The spent powder was Yellow in color. I saved some for show and tell...

http://i.imgur.com/VVKvnaU.jpg


My cases were pin tumbled and a good three days before I loaded them up. I wouldn't think that ALL the primers were weak as EVERY shot reacted the same. My crimp was pretty heavy IMO and I've used the same crimp style on my devastators down to 19 grains of H110 and never had this happen. I called Hodgen and asked if the powder was bad. They told me the hornady 7 th edition manual was wrong (page 880) and that I should be loaded the 240 grain xtp's between 23 to 24 grains?

I know I used some of this powder last year with no issues. Could it have gotten, old, contaminated, or wet? Do I need to crimp harder on my crimp. I put ALOT of pressure on my crimp IMO like always.

The Hodgen rep said he's done the same himself with not enough H110 in the case. He said H110 is the only powder that will do this. I'm confused since I have worked the H110 from 17 grains to 24 grain with a 265 grain devastator and never had any issues with a 1000 plus rounds I fired out of it last year.

So what's your opinion? Bad powder? Too loose a crimp, or not enough powder fill? I would rather dump the powder and start over before I waste time with loading defective loads again. Hodgen told me it's likely not the powder but if I wanted it tested I'd have to send them loaded ammo. It would cost more to ship hazmat than to buy another jug of powder IMO.

I did load up a bunch of devastators with this powder a few months ago. I'm going to have to test them now. I'd hate to have this happen in a hunt.

[bmortell]

my h110 flakes measure length of cut at 0.008" yours is more like 3 fingerprint ridges so roughly 0.060" I don't think that's h110

[Conditor22]

H110 is a flattened ball powder! You may have accidentally got some powder mixed up or got a really weird bottle of powder.

http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?s_reference=&s_content_source=&s_source_reference=&s_product_use=&s_distributor=5&s_product_name=H110&s_date_obtained=&s_lot_number=&s_date_analyzed=&s_manufacturer=&s_date_manufactured=&s_notes=&s_shape_id=&s_color_id=&s_luster_id=&s_dia_min=&s_dia_max=&s_dia_avg=&s_dia_tol=&s_length_min=&s_length_max=&s_len_avg=&s_len_tol=&display_image=20&powder_id=80

Do you have a picture of unburnt powder?

[centershot]

The powder in the picture is NOT H-110! H-110 is a ball powder, the powder shown is a short-grained extruded powder.

[Tripplebeards]

Your right!!!!! It was H1000 that must have grabbed by mistake. Never did that before in 20 years of reloading. Thank god I had no issues other than weak loads. Lesson learned. I feel a little stupid...but relieved that I didn't harm myself or firearm.

[bmortell]

ya I was thinking it must be extremely slow to be in that good of shape after. I packed 44 loads full of 4895 and 4350 cause I get bored sometimes but I don't remember that much powder being left or that perfect looking.

[Conditor22]

Hodgdon-H1000

http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?s_reference=&s_content_source=&s_source_reference=&s_product_use=&s_distributor=5&s_product_name=H1000&s_date_obtained=&s_lot_number=&s_date_analyzed=&s_manufacturer=&s_date_manufactured=&s_notes=&s_shape_id=&s_color_id=&s_luster_id=&s_dia_min=&s_dia_max=&s_dia_avg=&s_dia_tol=&s_length_min=&s_length_max=&s_len_avg=&s_len_tol=&display_image=20&powder_id=63

https://i.imgur.com/3oS3qNY.png

Thank God you didn't switch H-110 for H-1000. That would have been ugly.

You are safe, you figured it out. That's what's important.

This just tells me your getting older :) I double check my powder and leave it sitting on the bench behind /next to my press so I see it while I reload.

And, only 1 powder on the bench at a time --- PERIOD.

This is a good reminder for the rest of us.

[Tripplebeards]

I did only have one on the bench...that's how I figured it out. I saw an H1?? and my dyslexia went to town. I called Luke at hodgen and told him I boo boo'd and it wasn't the powders fault....it was mine.

[Larry Gibson]

Nothing wrong with the H110 you're using. What's wrong is you're using it in a revolver with, unlike the solid breach 77/44, has a barrel cylinder gap. To exasperate matters your revolver has a 2 1/2" barrel. H110 requires a higher level of psi to burn efficiently. Your revolver is venting psi at the barrel cylinder gap and then totally venting it at the muzzle well before the psi is high enough for the H110 to burn efficiently. As the technicians said you should be using 23 - 24 gr H110 with the 240 gr XTP. That will put the psi at 34 - 35,000 psi +/-. However, with the short barrel the psi may still vent to much too soon. A switch to Blue Dot or 2400 might be better options.

[mattw]

I did only have one on the bench...that's how I figured it out. I saw an H1?? and my dyslexia went to town. I called Luke at hodgen and told him I boo boo'd and it wasn't the powders fault....it was mine.

Ah heck... just throw a duplex charge and watch the night sky light up! No... just kidding. I am a little surprised that it even tried to burn and did get the bullet out of the barrel.

[osteodoc08]

Definitely isn’t H110. Glad you figured it out and no harm done. Pride will recover. Time to break down the remaining.

I typically keep one bottle on the loading bench and it’s the one I’m using and it follows the reloading process until complete and put away. I can’t say I’ve never dumped the wrong powder in the hopper to have to empty it and clean it in preparation for the correct powder.

[Arkansas Paul]

I'm with Conditor22.
I'm glad you made the mistake this way and not the opposite. That would have been bad.

Lesson learned. It's always a relief when your mistake isn't costly.
Happy loading.

[Drew P]

Okay but the question in my mind is still WHY IS IT YELLOW?!

[Tripplebeards]

Well, I just got done reloading with the correct powder and disassembled my 329NG to clean and inspect. I heard a loose rattle inside that was bugging me. It was the hammer block. Looks like it's designed to be loosely fit and slide up and down causing the rattle. The faceplate screws were loct tighted with red loc tite from the factory! I only had one loaded bullet to pull. Luck was in my side today. I am still scratching my head that I didn't pick up on the powder shape when loading. The pistol still stunk of that nasty burnt powder smell (like firecracker snakes)when I cleaned it. The H1000 has to be 20 years old...I wonder if it's still good? I used it in my 300 RUM if I remember correctly.

[Larry Gibson]

H1000....well that's a whole different ball game.......glad no harm was done.......

[Bazoo]

Mistakes happen, glad nothing bad resulted. I think it's a fine thing you did calling hodgden back and letting them know. They probably appreciate it more than you know.

[Tatume]

Okay but the question in my mind is still WHY IS IT YELLOW?!

It's yellow because the powder is yellow, and is coated in graphite. In the partial burn, the graphite was removed from the powder that did not burn.

[Tripplebeards]

It's yellow because the powder is yellow, and is coated in graphite. In the partial burn, the graphite was removed from the powder that did not burn.

Was wondering why it turned yellow myself

[PAndy]

Good thing you didn't make the mistake the other direction...by grabbing H110 when you meant to use H1000. ouch. So the good guy wins and no harm done this time.

[303Guy]

Whenever I have had incomplete burn, the remaining kernels were yellow. Are all the kernels burning to that yellow state or just some of them and some of those are being left in the bore? It seems unlikely that some kernels would burn completely and some not and yet the evidence seems to point in that direction.

[Tripplebeards]

Yellow kernels every...the bore, cylinders, inside the fired casings, my bench, you name it. The pistol looked like it was popping popcorn when I fired it. I’m sure the primer was not pushing my 240 grain j words out the barrel by itself and and shooting fast enough to obtain 3/4” groups at 15 yards. I would think some of the powder had to ignite. The titanium pistol recoiled similar to the junk PMR30 I was refunded from keltec for jamming and feeding issues.

[DonMountain]

To light up H1000 don't you need really, really hot Magnum Magnum primers?

[Tripplebeards]

I used the h1000 I’m my RUM with magnum primers. I’m happy to say large magnum pistol primers must not be as hot. That and my case and 2.5” pistol barrel was too short to burn most of the powder vs a 3.5” case and 26” barrel that my h1000 was originally used for.

[murf205]

Try a batch with Unique and std primers and you will love the 2.5" barrel a lot better. H110 just needs a longer tube to build pressure. In MY experience, it is a specialty powder.

[303Guy]

My uncle who was an armorer in WWII told me that after a 50BMG range shoot they would sweep up heaps of those yellow kernels from in front of those machine guns. How much exactly I wouldn't know but enough to need to sweep it up.

With a H4227 type powder in a 44 mag revolver I found that enough powder burnt it all while reducing the charge would produce those yellow kernels. It wasn't as though there was sudden drop off of performance - it was just a lighter load in line with the reduced powder charge.

What happens when one burns these powders in the open? I've done it but I can't remember. I do remember the powders burning just fine.

[EDG]

I will comment on your mistake.
1. You made a really careless blunder. It was not some sort of technical error or misjudgment. It was evidence of poor work habits and carelessness.

2. You had so much faith in your own ability that you could not trouble shoot and discover that you caused your own problem.

[Tripplebeards]

I will comment on your mistake.
1. You made a really careless blunder. It was not some sort of technical error or misjudgment. It was evidence of poor work habits and carelessness.

2. You had so much faith in your own ability that you could not trouble shoot and discover that you caused your own problem.

I agree...first time...and last time it going to happen in my 20 years of reloading...It won’t happen again... It’s made me paranoid now. Hopefully it will be an educational learning lesson to help others stay focused and stay on point when reloading. I don’t drink or do drugs. I just must have been distracted that day when I grabbed the wrong powder. I wasn’t in a rush. I did have Grit TV on and must have been distracted by the Western I was watching. I also didn’t have my central air on and it was around 85 degrees in my house so the heat and sweating while I loaded might have distracted me as well. I remember seeing the “H” and a “1” on the label and my brain must have shut off after that. Kind of like skimming a book. It’s the only thing that I can figure out what happened.

Over the last 20 years I’ve hand loaded thousands and thousands of rounds and never had any issues other than a few defective Federal large magnum match pistol primers last year failing to ignite. Just an off day I guess. But all it takes is one time wreck your firearm and or yourself. Lesson learned.

[swheeler]

You were only off by 890 fps, you know 1000 minus 110! :bigsmyl2: Dude, be careful, dude!!!!

[luvtn]

Good you found the cause. I was curious why you use such a short OAL for your magnum loads? For my 77/44 I can get away with 1.650, but can do 1.7 for my revolvers.
luvtn

[303Guy]

The problem with mistakes is that they can and do happen - to all of us! I get accused of over-analysing mistakes but to me that's important in order to prevent them.

I have taken note of this particular mistake and am thinking about what I need to do avoid making a similar mistake. It could happen to me!

[super6]

About the yellow powder that has been brought up several times in this thread, Smokeless powder is nitrocellulose lacquer blended with cotton. It is black due to graphite used as an aid to prevent sticking. Pure nc. lacquer is yellow. As noted by Tatume. All so I am advised buy Tatume that the graphite is a burn rate modifier.? I was under the impression That modification was % of liquidity Too produce a given volume.

[Tripplebeards]

Good you found the cause. I was curious why you use such a short OAL for your magnum loads? For my 77/44 I can get away with 1.650, but can do 1.7 for my revolvers.
luvtn

I load my 77/44 with cast the same length as you and use my lee collet factory crimp die. I loaded to the one and only cannalure on the jacketed 240 grain hornady XTPs so I had something to crimp to.

[FISH4BUGS]

Over the last 20 years I’ve hand loaded thousands and thousands of rounds and never had any issues other than a few defective Federal large magnum match pistol primers last year failing to ignite. Just an off day I guess. But all it takes is one time wreck your firearm and or yourself. Lesson learned.
I have blown up 2 guns in my days - a S&W 3914 and a S&W 76 submachinegun. The 3914 was destroyed and the subgun was built like a tank...thank goodness. No bad damage to the subgun except a bolt face was blown off and the magazine was blown out.
How did it happen? After retracing my steps I realized that on my Dillon 550, I had put a military case in the 1st station, deprimed and sized it, and then found I couldn't seat a new primer because of the crimp. Rather than clear the press, I absentmindedly just replaced the case and pulled the handle again,....resulting in a double charge in station 2.
KABOOM!
Now, I ANYTHING stops the reloading process, i clear all the stations before doing anything.
Lesson hard learned.
It can happen to anyone.
That's why there are no TV's going in the man cave....too easy to get distracted.

[waksupi]

I have blown up 2 guns in my days - a S&W 3914 and a S&W 76 submachinegun. The 3914 was destroyed and the subgun was built like a tank...thank goodness. No bad damage to the subgun except a bolt face was blown off and the magazine was blown out.
How did it happen? After retracing my steps I realized that on my Dillon 550, I had put a military case in the 1st station, deprimed and sized it, and then found I couldn't seat a new primer because of the crimp. Rather than clear the press, I absentmindedly just replaced the case and pulled the handle again,....resulting in a double charge in station 2.
KABOOM!
Now, I ANYTHING stops the reloading process, i clear all the stations before doing anything.
Lesson hard learned.
It can happen to anyone.
That's why there are no TV's going in the man cave....too easy to get distracted.

This is why I have no use for a progressive. A moment of inattention, and bye bye gun, hands, eyes....

[FISH4BUGS]

This is why I have no use for a progressive. A moment of inattention, and bye bye gun, hands, eyes....

I understand....but try loading for machine guns with a single stage press.....not much output.
The lesson was learned....any kind of stoppage whatsoever has trained me to clear the stations completely before resolving whatever the issue. PERIOD.
With the Dillon 550 I can easily do 400 per hour (with loaded primer tubes) taking my time and doing lots of inspection....and stopping every 100 rounds to check the powder weight and OAL.
I moved away from the single stage many years ago....and do not regret it for one second.....
The blown up guns were the price of tuition to the "School of Inattentive Reloading".....I got my Bachelor's degree with the 76, and I was awarded my Master's degree after the 3914 kaboom. :bigsmyl2:

[Tracy]

Now you need to increase the charge of H-1000 to a compressed load with a heavy boolit, and see how it works in your 77/44. I've done similar with even slower powder. Intentionally, I might add. :bigsmyl2:

[WRideout]

What happens when one burns these powders in the open? I've done it but I can't remember. I do remember the powders burning just fine.

When I was in an M110 cannon Battalion (ref. avatar) we used separate loading ammunition; powder came in canisters and projectiles in banded pallets. At the end of the days shooting, we always had left over increments of powder that had to be burned for safety. The rule was to dump it in a line, not piled up. Light one end and watch it go. At night it would light up like floodlights, very impressive. If you make a big pile of powder it could conceivably generate enough pressure to detonate.

Wayne

[jimb16]

You made one of the cardinal errors of reloading. NEVER keep more than one powder on the bench at a time! And make sure it is the one that you want! You got lucky. I hope you learned your lesson. Other people haven't been so lucky!

[Tatume]

Post #38

You made one of the cardinal errors of reloading. NEVER keep more than one powder on the bench at a time! And make sure it is the one that you want! You got lucky. I hope you learned your lesson. Other people haven't been so lucky!

Post #8

I did only have one on the bench...that's how I figured it out. I saw an H1?? and my dyslexia went to town. I called Luke at hodgen and told him I boo boo'd and it wasn't the powders fault....it was mine.

[BNE]

Triplebeard, thank you for being big enough to share this. It will help many (including me) to be more careful.

[super6]

Bne +1