Are LARGE obsolete cartridges actually Obsolete?

[Kev18]

Well I read a bunch of articles and most of them say that alot of old cartridges are obsolete because the ballistics, force of impact, Muzzle energy, and so on, are obsolete themselves since smokeless powders require a much smaller charge. So for example, I was looking at loads for 40-82WCF. People on different forums were arguing that there was no point in these calibers because nowadays a .44 Mag is just as powerful.

Back in the day a 45-70 was a crazy cartridge. But people wanted more so they made the cases longer and longer because they needed more powder. Which makes sense.
Now can't we just adjust the load in a 45-70 to imitate a 45-120?

Cool factor and nostalgia aside, what are your opinions on this?

[cwtebay]

Well I read a bunch of articles and most of them say that alot of old cartridges are obsolete because the ballistics, force of impact, Muzzle energy, and so on, are obsolete themselves since smokeless powders require a much smaller charge. So for example, I was looking at loads for 40-82WCF. People on different forums were arguing that there was no point in these calibers because nowadays a .44 Mag is just as powerful.

Back in the day a 45-70 was a crazy cartridge. But people wanted more so they made the cases longer and longer because they needed more powder. Which makes sense.
Now can't we just adjust the load in a 45-70 to imitate a 45-120?

Cool factor and nostalgia aside, what are your opinions on this?I know that there are smokeless 45-70 loads that far surpass original 45-120 loads of 500 grains chugging along at 1500ish fps. I also have seen some folks do the same with 45-120 brass in a modern rifle and reportedly end up between a 458 win mag and 460 Weatherby. I can't speak to the 45-120, but the upper end loads in 45-70 are wicked at both ends of the rifle.

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[john.k]

Thats about like saying Lewis and Clark wasted their time and energy ,cause now you can just jump on a plane.

[country gent]

With a lot of states going like Ohio recently has done and allowing straight walled cartridges in rifles for deer hunting during shotgun seasons, the old BP cartridges are making a comeback. the surge in BPCR matches is also is affecting this some. I know several have bought 38-55 and 45-70 lever actions just for this reason. In Ohio any straight walled case 38 cal or larger in a rifle or handgun is allowed. This addition to the game laws regulations allows for rifles in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 50-70 along with the extended versions, and the handgun cartridges that meet the criteria. I find it interesting a 30-30 cant be used but a 500 S&W, 460 45 120 or 50 140 are.

Here's something to consider on these "obsolete" rifles. C Sharps and Shiloh sharps reproductions have way surpassed the Original Sharps rifle companies production. This isn't counting pedersoli, CPA, DZ and the others

[ohiochuck]

As Country Gent explained, some states have allowed straight walled rifle cartridges in the gun deer seasons.
During the 2017-2018 Deer Gun season I was lucky to harvest the largest doe I have ever taken using a Merkel model 210 16 bore over 9.3 X 72 Rimmed. I used S&B factory ammo on this hunt. Now ready to test the new to me Accurate # 37-196 with and without GC. Also up for testing is a Winchester 1894 in 38-55.
(Side note- before Ohio decided to allow straight wall rifle cartridges, I sent an e-mail to the Ohio Division of Wildlife Chief Law
Enforcement supervisor asking if a combination gun two barrels or a drilling 3 barrels would be legal to hunt deer with as long as only ammo legal for deer were carried. I explained there seemed to be different views on the legality by ODW game protectors around Ohio.
He quickly replied that combination guns would be legal for deer hunting as long as only the allowed ammo was carried by the hunter. He then sent a notice to the district ODW managers and instructed them to communicate that combination guns would be legal for deer hunting with all their game protectors.
So my Merkel is legal as the 9.3 X 72 R is straight walled case).
Larger caliber rifles are now legal in various Eastern states giving a much need revival for 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 45-90 ,etc.

[RED BEAR]

Well I read a bunch of articles and most of them say that alot of old cartridges are obsolete because the ballistics, force of impact, Muzzle energy, and so on, are obsolete themselves since smokeless powders require a much smaller charge. So for example, I was looking at loads for 40-82WCF. People on different forums were arguing that there was no point in these calibers because nowadays a .44 Mag is just as powerful.

Back in the day a 45-70 was a crazy cartridge. But people wanted more so they made the cases longer and longer because they needed more powder. Which makes sense.
Now can't we just adjust the load in a 45-70 to imitate a 45-120?

Cool factor and nostalgia aside, what are your opinions on this?

Unfortunately america has caught magnum itus. There is nothing wrong with the old cartridges they worked just fine in there day and will still do so today. Do you really think a dead deer or bear or what ever really cares what caliber killed him? I absolutely love the old cartridges and the guns that shoot them. I don't hunt anymore but i still keep in touch with family and friends who do . I was once told that you need at least a 300 mag to hunt deer around here because you might have to shoot at almost 100 yrds. i asked when deer went on steroids. I really see no need for a canon to hunt mice. But some feel that they do and if so god bless use what floats your boat.
If you like the old gun then i say go for it they can really be a blast to work up loads and shoot.

[GARD72977]

Thats about like saying Lewis and Clark wasted their time and energy ,cause now you can just jump on a plane.

I just could not help thinking - Taking a pregnet woman and a air rifle on a journey across America does seem like a waste if time today

[17nut]

I know that there are smokeless 45-70 loads that far surpass original 45-120 loads of 500 grains chugging along at 1500ish fps. I also have seen some folks do the same with 45-120 brass in a modern rifle and reportedly end up between a 458 win mag and 460 Weatherby. I can't speak to the 45-120, but the upper end loads in 45-70 are wicked at both ends of the rifle.

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There is a reason for the "madness" you know!
Old rifles that will blow up in short order with a high pressure modern load.

There are 3 common pressure levels for the 45-70
28kpsi for original trapdoor rifles and other old black powder guns.
45kpsi for Winchester 1886 and Marlin 1895 leverguns.
And lastly 65kpsi for the Ruger #1.

So there is several flavors of that bonbon.


A 40-82 loaded to BP levels with smokeless will hurl a 240grain bullet along at 2150fps all day long, try that with a 44MAG!

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[pietro]

.

My observation of what "obsolete" means regarding cartridges can mean:

* From an economic standpoint, there is insufficient demand for the cartridge to tool up for & manufacture.

* Manufacturers no longer chamber for it, as a matter of course.



A projectile doesn't know what it's being fired from...…


Ergo, the same weight bullet (like, say 350gr), fired in different barrels (like .429", .458", etc), can be loaded with the correct powder to the same terminal ballistics - provided there is ample room in the cartridge case for the powder charges, and the barrel/action is strong enough.


.

[longbow]

RED BEAR said it "magnumitis"!

.45-70 and many other relatively large bore cartridges were very popular for hunting and target shooting until smokeless powder was invented then those big old slow cartridges suddenly fell out of favour and cartridges like .30-30 took over.

Basically when smokeless powder became common rifle bore diameters got smaller and smaller with bullets being shot at high and higher velocity. The take at the time was that not only did you get much flatter trajectory so easier to hit targets at longer range (which is true) but kinetic energy was king of the hill and it is easy to increase kinetic energy with increase in velocity.

Interesting (to me) is when I started reading about metallic silhouette shooting many years ago it turned out that momentum proved to be better at knocking steel animals down than energy. Light bullets at high velocity tended to "explode" where heavier slower bullets did a better job of knocking the animals over. Big heavy bullets/boolits at moderate velocity generally have flat enough trajectories at "normal" hunting distances to be perfectly adequate and the terminal ballistics are also very effective.

I once read that the average hunter takes his game within 125 yards. Does that hunter really need a 7mm mag or 300 mag for a 125 yard shot? Certainly if the same hunter was shooting at the deer at 300 yards the higher velocity magnum cartridges will provide a much flatter trajectory but in reality there are not that many hunters that can consistently shoot accurately enough to hunt at 300 yards. Many think they can but most I know certainly can't. I don't know that 125 yards is an accurate number but I do know many shooters that shouldn't be taking hunting shots much farther than that.

Yup! There's guys popping prairie dogs at 400 yards but they aren't your average weekend deer hunter. That weekend deer hunter would be better served by a less intense cartridge which results in less bloodshot meat at 125 yards +/-. He'd also be better served by practicing regularly and improving his accuracy. My opinion anyway.

So, no those old "obsolete" cartridges aren't obsolete because they don't and didn't work. They are obsolete because factories don't make ammunition or brass because they have convinced Joe weekend hunter that he needs the newest magnum he can get... even though his grandfathers gun would be just as good for his purposes.

Longbow

[RED BEAR]

RED BEAR said it "magnumitis"!

.45-70 and many other relatively large bore cartridges were very popular for hunting and target shooting until smokeless powder was invented then those big old slow cartridges suddenly fell out of favour and cartridges like .30-30 took over.

Basically when smokeless powder became common rifle bore diameters got smaller and smaller with bullets being shot at high and higher velocity. The take at the time was that not only did you get much flatter trajectory so easier to hit targets at longer range (which is true) but kinetic energy was king of the hill and it is easy to increase kinetic energy with increase in velocity.

Interesting (to me) is when I started reading about metallic silhouette shooting many years ago it turned out that momentum proved to be better at knocking steel animals down than energy. Light bullets at high velocity tended to "explode" where heavier slower bullets did a better job of knocking the animals over. Big heavy bullets/boolits at moderate velocity generally have flat enough trajectories at "normal" hunting distances to be perfectly adequate and the terminal ballistics are also very effective.

I once read that the average hunter takes his game within 125 yards. Does that hunter really need a 7mm mag or 300 mag for a 125 yard shot? Certainly if the same hunter was shooting at the deer at 300 yards the higher velocity magnum cartridges will provide a much flatter trajectory but in reality there are not that many hunters that can consistently shoot accurately enough to hunt at 300 yards. Many think they can but most I know certainly can't. I don't know that 125 yards is an accurate number but I do know many shooters that shouldn't be taking hunting shots much farther than that.

Yup! There's guys popping prairie dogs at 400 yards but they aren't your average weekend deer hunter. That weekend deer hunter would be better served by a less intense cartridge which results in less bloodshot meat at 125 yards +/-. He'd also be better served by practicing regularly and improving his accuracy. My opinion anyway.

So, no those old "obsolete" cartridges aren't obsolete because they don't and didn't work. They are obsolete because factories don't make ammunition or brass because they have convinced Joe weekend hunter that he needs the newest magnum he can get... even though his grandfathers gun would be just as good for his purposes.

Longbow

Spelling ain't my strong suit. Sorry.

[Binky]

"Obsolete" is a subjective term. There are a couple of dozen guys(and maybe some gals) that are regulars on the boards, that load for some rather strange calibers(and the rifles / handguns to go with them). I may not understand the reasoning behind their projects but they do and that is all that is important. I enjoy reading about the progress made and the success / failure of each step in the process. A cartridge is only, truly, "obsolete" when there is nobody left who remembers what it is or there aren't any guns left to shoot it from or any possible way to make ammo(no mater how much work is involved in the process). Just my opinion and we all know that an opinion and a banana will make you popular at the monkey cage in the Zoo.

[GregLaROCHE]

This first time I’ve heard about states allowing straight walled cartridges in shotgun only areas. It makes sense, if you can shoot a twelve gauge magnum slug out of a rifled barrel.

[country gent]

There's a lot of reasons for working with the old weird and wonderful. For some its nostalgia. ( Like me picking up odd 25 rimfire rounds for my Aunts rolling block), Some just want to put a fine firearm back into use either limited or more, Some want to prove disprove the old tales or stories. And some do it just for the challenge.

Several states now have "expanded" the allowed firearms cartridges allowed for deer hunting to include rifle handgun rounds some have a case length limit also. The one thing these have done is raise interest in the old rounds and the firearms for them.

[15meter]

As for obsolete big bores, there's absolutely nothing like the "TONK" sound when you drop a pair in something like this:
244540

I've taken loaded rounds back out just to drop them back in to be able to listen:bigsmyl2:

470 Nitro Express, for fun shooting, a boolit mold for a Ruger 480 makes a dandy dinger ringer.

[Petander]

My Marlin 1895 moose load for the last 20 years has been Hornady 350 FN @ 2150 fps. VVN130. Got many a moose.


Had three Marlins,heard about blowing them up all the time. "1200 is all you need bla bla". Not blown up one yet but I'm sure I will.

I also shoot 300 WM for those longer field shots. Practise 300&500 m regularly. 5kJ loads, yes it will blow up. And now I got a 500 S&W,too,for a long time. I like heavy ,hard 12 gauge slugs... Vihtavuori powders,no data, sure will blow up!

I'm wrong and it's okay. Because I'm happy. :)

[smkummer]

I believe ( no wait-I know!) there is a big satisfaction level for bringing these old cartridges and firearms back to shooting/ hunting status. It can be a real challenge finding or making brass for some. When it’s all done and to hear a steel plate “ping” at 200 yards and beyond or a deer drops DRT from a big slow moving bullet that makes a “whomp” when it hits.......it most likely seems all worth it. Life needs these special moments.

[David LaPell]

As long as one guy is loading it, shooting it and taking it out to do what it was designed to do, it's not obsolete. It's just old fashioned. Sure, my '74 Ford pick up doesn't hold a candle technologically to a new F-150, but if I put stuff in the box, my truck will get it there too, maybe not as fast or in style, but it will do.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

As long as one guy is loading it, shooting it and taking it out to do what it was designed to do, it's not obsolete. It's just old fashioned. Sure, my '74 Ford pick up doesn't hold a candle technologically to a new F-150, but if I put stuff in the box, my truck will get it there too, maybe not as fast or in style, but it will do.

I agree. Old guns chambered for old cartridges will not just fade to obvilion!

https://i.imgur.com/0b7mFCp.jpg

[Shawlerbrook]

Not as long as guys like us are still around. :redneck:

[Larry Gibson]

Something is deemed "obsolete", by definition, because something else can do the job/function better. Obsolete does not mean, as many assume it does, that what is "obsolete" can no longer do the job/function anymore........

[Petander]

As for obsolete big bores, there's absolutely nothing like the "TONK" sound when you drop a pair in something like this:
244540

I've taken loaded rounds back out just to drop them back in to be able to listen:bigsmyl2:

470 Nitro Express, for fun shooting, a boolit mold for a Ruger 480 makes a dandy dinger ringer.

I bought two molds for this one last winter. My friends is selling one or at least he needs lighter loads. I .made a bunch of coated boolits and consulted Vihtavuori about load data,my boolits are 350-420 or so, can't remember right now.

Can't wait to get my hands on this one!

[Harter66]

Having done considerable research into load data for several 45s and comparing them to not only other 45s but 35/38/9mm cartridges I offer this ;
The 45-110 and 120 with a Winchester 405 SP give up just 100 fps and 100 ftlb to the same bullet in the 458 WM . Of course the 110&120 need another 10" of barrel to do that also .
The 45 Colts in nominal bullets rivals the mighty 357 inside 50 yd .
Juiced up to 21,000 psi in a Ruger ......well , your pushing 100 gr more 100 fps slower , so any advantage there only comes from the smaller chassis .

Don't even get me started on 9mm/38 .

I've got to know , what is it exactly the 7mm Rem has on 280 H&H ?
We all know there isn't anything but a name that makes the 280 Nosler superior to the 280 AI .

Short action is gained for the 284 Win but little to nothing else over the 280 Rem .

Yep , there's a whole bunch that are lost but are sought after in kind in a modern setting like the 11mm Chessipot and other Driess and needle fire caseless breach loaders .

Some "improvements" take advantage of all that's new and shiny ....... The things that make things new and shiny of course could be applied to the older less shiny and then it kind of negates the advantage of new and shiny ...... I guess that's why we love the classics . That and it just sounds cool to say "it's a 96' Winchester in 40-65 Winchester" .

[RED BEAR]

I still say the older cartridges worked then and will work now.

[sukivel]

There aren’t obsolete cartridges, only less used cartridges.


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[Winger Ed.]

I'll stick with the old part, but not the obsolete label.

Like when your bathroom cleanser says, 'new and improved'.
I tend to doubt either part.... and it doesn't made the older one obsolete.

[Kev18]

There is a reason for the "madness" you know!
Old rifles that will blow up in short order with a high pressure modern load.

There are 3 common pressure levels for the 45-70
28kpsi for original trapdoor rifles and other old black powder guns.
45kpsi for Winchester 1886 and Marlin 1895 leverguns.
And lastly 65kpsi for the Ruger #1.

So there is several flavors of that bonbon.


A 40-82 loaded to BP levels with smokeless will hurl a 240grain bullet along at 2150fps all day long, try that with a 44MAG!

Sent from my PC using keyboard

Well I have shot that caliber hundreds of times and I can tell you that factory loads in the day never passed 1495 fps. Factory load was a 260gr FN with 82gr FF BP.

I shoot a 300gr and 260gr with the same load and they are both documented to be under 1500fps. 34grains 3031 with filler! :)

[Kev18]

Not as long as guys like us are still around. :redneck:

We need more of us in my generation!

[Kev18]

There aren’t obsolete cartridges, only less used cartridges.


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Make a shirt that says that and il buy it.

[Kev18]

I pretty much agree with everything said here. You guys are making a great thread!

I love old rifles, they are all I own. They deserve more love.

If they hunted buffalo with these cartridges they are well suited for a deer.

And I find it sad that on these new hunting shows, they promote all these new things. So beginners think that all those things are needed. The guy has a brand new, range finder, binoculars, and three calls hanging from his neck. Thousands of dollars right there. And that's not mentioning his super new carbon fiber, 300 WM with the 10,000$ price on it. But they dont care, all sponsored stuff! :popcorn:

[ulav8r]

Obsolete means the cartridge is not available from multiple sources, AND cases are not available, AND no readily available case can be used by simply trimming and forming using standard dies for the cartridge. If dies are no longer made and not readily available used, the cartidge can be considered obsolete, BUT the gun chambered for it can be quite useful if you are willing to take the necessary steps to make the ammunition for it. Obsolete does NOT mean useless.

[BigEyeBob]

No such thing as an obsolete cartridge in my way of thinking . Ioad for ,310 Greener , 297/230 Morris Long ,300Sherwood ,360N05 Rook ,380Rook , and a number of other vintage cartridges .

[RED BEAR]

I have to say that i will take an old gun over a new one any day. I absolutely love the old guns and cartridges. I feel that most of the time the fit and finish is better. There are exceptions to this but generally. Plus the older guns just have a cool factor to me.

[Speedo66]

Obsolete to me means something like pinfire guns, or something like that. If you can still get cases, primers, etc. that will fit it and can be reloaded, it ain't obsolete.

I shoot an 1889 Winchester Model 1873 rifle in .38-40, so 130 years old. Is it obsolete, hell no! It's a 14 round lever action assault rifle! The case may be a little longer, but the ballistics are similar to a .40S&W.

Nothing shot with a 180g. bullet from that rifle is going to say, "that didn't hurt because, you know, that cartridge is obsolete". lol

[Kev18]

I have to say that i will take an old gun over a new one any day. I absolutely love the old guns and cartridges. I feel that most of the time the fit and finish is better. There are exceptions to this but generally. Plus the older guns just have a cool factor to me.

Same, I like the look of old ones and how they operate.

[Kev18]

Obsolete to me means something like pinfire guns, or something like that. If you can still get cases, primers, etc. that will fit it and can be reloaded, it ain't obsolete.

I shoot an 1889 Winchester Model 1873 rifle in .38-40, so 130 years old. Is it obsolete, hell no! It's a 14 round lever action assault rifle! The case may be a little longer, but the ballistics are similar to a .40S&W.

Nothing shot with a 180g. bullet from that rifle is going to say, "that didn't hurt because, you know, that cartridge is obsolete". lol

I have one in 44-40 made in 1888. I guess that cartridge isn't obsolete though!

[missionary5155]

If ya think a 50-70 will not get the job done... Well you need to go shoot one at some poor steel plate at any range.
But yea too many think if it is over 50 it is obsolete. But next time them young-uns need advice I try to remind them I have been there, done that.
Mike in Peru

[veeman]

I'm kinda partial to the 45-75 in a 76.

[longbow]

Now that's a nice line up you have there Bad ***!

[15meter]

I bought two molds for this one last winter. My friends is selling one or at least he needs lighter loads. I .made a bunch of coated boolits and consulted Vihtavuori about load data,my boolits are 350-420 or so, can't remember right now.

Can't wait to get my hands on this one!

:hijack:

I use the Noe mold:480-375-RF, I don't see it listed anymore pretty close to this:http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/n.o.e._bullet_moulds_480-384-rf_gc_ay2_sketch.jpg

It doesn't just ring dingers it demolishes them:244599

But boy is it fun:guntootsmiley:

This started out as the top 1/3 of a oxygen tank, it's now my front porch Holloween lantern.

[country gent]

"modern" isn't always better. A group of us were "trading shots on the gong at the club. A friend with a 6 br and 2 members with 223s. I had the Hepburn in 45-90 with BP loads. When going down to paint the gong one of the 223 shooters asked me and Ray ( 6br) why my rounds made the 6" gong jump and ring so loud. The 223s were more of a tink. Ray grinned a told him the bullet I was shooting weighed more than their entire loaded rounds did. I was shooting 550 grn lead bullet at around 1200 fps. It packed a lot of energy at 200 yds still. Those 2 club memebers had a lot more respect for the old round after that

[Texas by God]

In my old Lyman loading manual (1970s), there's data in the back for "obsolete" cartridges- I load for 3 of them.[emoji16][emoji16]

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[Kev18]

In my old Lyman loading manual (1970s), there's data in the back for "obsolete" cartridges- I load for 3 of them.[emoji16][emoji16]

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Id need to get a vintage reloading book. I have the Lyman one but from 2018 I think.

[GregLaROCHE]

Here’s a site that could interest those into really old and obsolete guns.

https://www.hc-collection.com/?PGFLngID=1

[Kev18]

Here’s a site that could interest those into really old and obsolete guns.

https://www.hc-collection.com/?PGFLngID=1

Pretty nice. Looks like a french site. The prices are expensive!

[Traffer]

Here is an obsolete round that I would like to see come back...
244621

[cwtebay]

Here is an obsolete round that I would like to see come back...
244621Now that's a great idea!! We need a >30 caliber round with 4000+fps of velocity!!

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[Kev18]

Now that's a great idea!! We need a >30 caliber round with 4000+fps of velocity!!

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What was that even used for and what was it shot from? And what's the barrel life of whatever it's shot out of? :bigsmyl2:

[Traffer]

What was that even used for and what was it shot from? And what's the barrel life of whatever it's shot out of? :bigsmyl2:

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=447
https://youtu.be/jLCdjVwvYZs


https://youtu.be/jupKqqqgBJM

[cwtebay]

What was that even used for and what was it shot from? And what's the barrel life of whatever it's shot out of? :bigsmyl2:It was an attempt at penetrating WW1 era armour. There were a number of different projectiles experimented with including tear gas and various metal cores. I have seen one reference that spoke of barrel life being around 50 rounds, but who knows!

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[15meter]

With minute-of-tank accuracy as the goal, I suspect that barrel life would have been a little more than 50 rounds, but that's just a W.A.G.

[dverna]

Sometimes obsolete means exactly that. A good example is the .348 Winchester. A fine cartridge that is obsolete.

It has little to do with being able to kill game. Heck almost anything will kill deer at 100 yards.

Remember we are a small and unimportant subset of the gun community. Our perceptions will be different.

[country gent]

Where do you rate the wildcatters and their one offs? A very few rounds started as wildcats and gained factory status ( 22-250, 25-06, 243 and a few other). Some have gained a following due to filling a niche. While never a true factory round this groip has been done in numbers for certain groups of shooters. The Ackley improved line is another area.

[dverna]

Where do you rate the wildcatters and their one offs? A very few rounds started as wildcats and gained factory status ( 22-250, 25-06, 243 and a few other). Some have gained a following due to filling a niche. While never a true factory round this groip has been done in numbers for certain groups of shooters. The Ackley improved line is another area.

I believe you answered your question...”A very few rounds started as wildcats and gained factory status”. Not sure how many wildcats are out there...a few hundred....a thousand?? A handful or two became commercially successful.

The AI cartridges at least can fire the factory chambering, but having to handload them regulates them to a small subset of gun owners. I admit being drawn to the .280 AI when I was young. But fortunately I was too poor to afford one.

Most wildcats seem to offer little practical advantage over popular cartridges....at least for the unwashed masses of gun owners. Which is why they remain wildcats. Some, like the .22-250, are adopted and succeed....yet it offered little over the now obsolete .220 Swift. Manufacturers use gun writers and marketing hype to their purposes.

My belief, after decades at this, is that Joe Average does not need anything more than a .308 and .223. One hundred years from now, if Americans can still own guns, those two calibers will still be in use and you will be able to buy ammunition for them at Walmart. Sorry...just having a bad day I guess.

[15meter]

I believe you answered your question...”A very few rounds started as wildcats and gained factory status”. Not sure how many wildcats are out there...a few hundred....a thousand?? A handful or two became commercially successful.

The AI cartridges at least can fire the factory chambering, but having to handload them regulates them to a small subset of gun owners. I admit being drawn to the .280 AI when I was young. But fortunately I was too poor to afford one.

Most wildcats seem to offer little practical advantage over popular cartridges....at least for the unwashed masses of gun owners. Which is why they remain wildcats. Some, like the .22-250, are adopted and succeed....yet it offered little over the now obsolete .220 Swift. Manufacturers use gun writers and marketing hype to their purposes.

My belief, after decades at this, is that Joe Average does not need anything more than a .308 and .223. One hundred years from now, if Americans can still own guns, those two calibers will still be in use and you will be able to buy ammunition for them at Walmart. Sorry...just having a bad day I guess.

Hey! Don't call my Swift obsolete!

That's as bad as calling my 1955 John Deere 60 an antique, built the same year I was-- I ain't an antique, I'm a CLASSIC[smilie=1:

[Ramjet-SS]

Shoot what you want when you want. Freedom means choice.

I like shooting a playing around with all them. Something about learning where we were to help us understand why are here today is appealing.

[Kev18]

Shoot what you want when you want. Freedom means choice.

I like shooting a playing around with all them. Something about learning where we were to help us understand why are here today is appealing.

Sometimes holding and even shooting a rifle that's been roaming around the world for 100+ years is nice. I wish I could know my rifle's story :)

[17nut]

I believe you answered your question...”A very few rounds started as wildcats and gained factory status”. Not sure how many wildcats are out there...a few hundred....a thousand?? A handful or two became commercially successful.

The AI cartridges at least can fire the factory chambering, but having to handload them regulates them to a small subset of gun owners. I admit being drawn to the .280 AI when I was young. But fortunately I was too poor to afford one.

Most wildcats seem to offer little practical advantage over popular cartridges....at least for the unwashed masses of gun owners. Which is why they remain wildcats. Some, like the .22-250, are adopted and succeed....yet it offered little over the now obsolete .220 Swift. Manufacturers use gun writers and marketing hype to their purposes.

My belief, after decades at this, is that Joe Average does not need anything more than a .308 and .223. One hundred years from now, if Americans can still own guns, those two calibers will still be in use and you will be able to buy ammunition for them at Walmart. Sorry...just having a bad day I guess.

Back 50-70 years rifle shooters/reloaders had bugger all to choose from regarding powder and had to make do.
Thus some mighty big/large cases saw day of light and made speeds that bullets could'nt honor.

The indians had a word for "braves" that could'nt get within killing distance of prey = vegetarian!
Great grandad used a 30-30 for all his meat. That turned into a 30-06 and today you cant kill anything with less than a 300WM.
Seems noone wants to/can stalk prey to within decent distance today.

The only thing the AI cases does is make case stretching almost nill, they feed like lego's through a stapler.

[tazman]

Now that's a great idea!! We need a >30 caliber round with 4000+fps of velocity!!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

We have one!
The 300 Weatherby magnum full power loads with a 110 grain bullet. It was a published load in the Weatherby catalog back in the early 80s(IIRC) claiming 4100fps from a MarkV Weatherby action.
I tried some of those just for grins. I didn't have a chronograph at the time so I can't verify the velocity. At high noon on a sunny day you would get a fireball you would not believe when you fired them.

On the original subject, large chunks of lead moving over the speed of sound will do considerable damage to anything on 2-4 legs it happens to run into. Those older rifles are still killers.

[Traffer]

We have one!
The 300 Weatherby magnum full power loads with a 110 grain bullet. It was a published load in the Weatherby catalog back in the early 80s(IIRC) claiming 4100fps from a MarkV Weatherby action.
I tried some of those just for grins. I didn't have a chronograph at the time so I can't verify the velocity. At high noon on a sunny day you would get a fireball you would not believe when you fired them.

On the original subject, large chunks of lead moving over the speed of sound will do considerable damage to anything on 2-4 legs it happens to run into. Those older rifles are still killers.

This 7.92x94 Patronen is a MONSTER. That 4100 fps was with a 280 grain bullet. This is it compared to a 8x57 Mauser... 244729

[Kev18]

Whats the point in that much speed? Wouldn't the bullet explode on impact?

[country gent]

Some explode in flight even. Try a 45 grn sx at 4150fps

[am44mag]

Unfortunately america has caught magnum itus.

Actually, I'd kind of argue that America has started going in the other direction due to the popularity of the AR platform. How many cartridges have been designed for that platform now that are better for hunting vs the 5.56? 350 Legend, .224 Valkyrie, .25-45 Sharps, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, and .50 Beowulf, and that's just some of the popular ones for the AR-15. 9x39 is starting to gain popularity for the AK shooters. You've got rounds like the 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5mm Creedmoor, .260 Remington, .308 Winchester, and the .338 Federal that are all relatively popular in the AR-10 and most can be had in even budget bolt action rifles.

I think we've seen a drift back towards more moderate cartridges in the last decade or two.

Now back to the topic, I guess it depends on what your definition of obsolete is. My definition and the definition that pulled up when I googled it was that obsolete means that they are no longer produced or used. A LOT of those old cartridges definitely meet that definition. I have never heard of a 40-82 WCF before today, and I have certainly never seen ammo for sale for one. I'm sure some people use it still, and I'm sure I could buy ammo if I felt like paying what would likely be a very steep price for a few rounds, but I don't think that's near enough to say it's still being produced and used today. That does NOT make it useless. If it does have ballistics similar to a 44 Mag, that's still a very respectable hunting rounds. It might not be as PRACTICAL as a 44 mag, but sometimes that doesn't matter. I own a few odd calibers, and I don't have a problem hunting with them because its fun to be a little bit different.

If you like the gun, buy it. If you want to hunt with it, go for it. No one else's opinion should dictate what you do.

[Reverend Al]

There are a number of vintage to downright antique rifles in my collection chambered for cartridge cases that were LONG thought to be "obsolete", but with a bit of effort (and in some cases a FAIR bit of effort) I've duplicated cartridge cases that many thought to be made of "unobtainium", so I can still shoot these wonderful old rifles that sat idle for many decades due to lack of ammunition. There are lots of old rifles with matching ammunition down in my shop and none of them are "obsolete" at my house!

:guntootsmiley:

[CrystalShip]

So called obsolete cartridges and components are really never obsolete. just not sometimes popular. You just have to know where to get them. As most know it's only a matter of where to get them. Once you Know . it,s no problem. There are several Choices. out there
if you don't make them your self. Graf, Buffalo Arms. Quality Cartridge ,Ammunition Artifacts. Reed. and probable many , many other.
Not Obsolete just not used as Much

[quail4jake]

Yes! All of those dirty old long brass cartridges are obsolete and should be disposed of! I will go out on a limb and offer to buy them all at scrap copper price...just as a service to those who are burdened with these derelicts hanging around. I will even buy those deplorable old rifles that fire them, so if anyone has these crusty clunkers (Winchester 1886 highly engraved for instance) send me a PM and I will make arrangements for disposal! Now don't say I never did anything selfless!:bigsmyl2:

[Traffer]

On a serious note. The rimfire cartridges are what I am interested in. With much better priming compound now, and the RELATIVELY simple process of drawing brass and copper, SOMEBODY should be making them again. Most people in the know have changed theirs over to center fire BUT, wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a box of .32rf or 41 or 44 or 41 Swiss for the same price as 9mm? The manufacturing process is cheaper (once it is set up).
If I had a good machine shop I would make them myself.

[Kev18]

On a serious note. The rimfire cartridges are what I am interested in. With much better priming compound now, and the RELATIVELY simple process of drawing brass and copper, SOMEBODY should be making them again. Most people in the know have changed theirs over to center fire BUT, wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a box of .32rf or 41 or 44 or 41 Swiss for the same price as 9mm? The manufacturing process is cheaper (once it is set up).
If I had a good machine shop I would make them myself.

I wish i could buy. 32 rf! I'm having issues with mind to make brass and i posted in the reloading equipment and gunsmithing threads about my adventures.

[Kev18]

Yes! All of those dirty old long brass cartridges are obsolete and should be disposed of! I will go out on a limb and offer to buy them all at scrap copper price...just as a service to those who are burdened with these derelicts hanging around. I will even buy those deplorable old rifles that fire them, so if anyone has these crusty clunkers (Winchester 1886 highly engraved for instance) send me a PM and I will make arrangements for disposal! Now don't say I never did anything selfless!:bigsmyl2:

Wow you are a nice individual. Offering all of these services to help out the community. A true hero amongst men! :) I think you inspired me to do the same.

[Kev18]

So called obsolete cartridges and components are really never obsolete. just not sometimes popular. You just have to know where to get them. As most know it's only a matter of where to get them. Once you Know . it,s no problem. There are several Choices. out there
if you don't make them your self. Graf, Buffalo Arms. Quality Cartridge ,Ammunition Artifacts. Reed. and probable many , many other.
Not Obsolete just not used as Much

Now with the internet nothing is impossible or out of reach. Which is nice in some cases. The problem also is price for people. This is different for everyone, but if one doesn't reload buying just one box of ammo is so expensive. When I got my 1886 I started buying ammo from Buffalo arms. It was extremely expensive especially since I'm in Canada. It was almost 150-200$ a box plus border fees. I bought around 3 boxes several times. Then ordered from GAD. So I have alot of ammo. Since then I started reloading.
I spent over a thousand dollars just on ammo....

[Reverend Al]

When I got my 1886 I started buying ammo from Buffalo arms. It was extremely expensive especially since I'm in Canada. It was almost 150-200$ a box plus border fees. I bought around 3 boxes several times. Then ordered from GAD. So I have alot of ammo. Since then I started reloading.
I spent over a thousand dollars just on ammo....

Ouch! Wish you'd asked sooner since .40-82 WCF can be formed from Starline .45-90 brass that is fairly easily purchased from several Canadian distributors. A set of dies, a suitable 240 to 260 grain mould, a bit of brass, and you're off to the range ... and for a lot LESS than $1,000!

(And if you're interested in some information about loading for the .40-82 WCF pop me a PM. I've loaded for it in an 1886 and in my current 1885 High Wall single shot. It can be frustrating to get it shooting well until you know the "secrets" of loading for it!)

[veeman]

(And if you're interested in some information about loading for the .40-82 WCF pop me a PM. I've loaded for it in an 1886 and in my current 1885 High Wall single shot. It can be frustrating to get it shooting well until you know the "secrets" of loading for it!)

People helping people, it's a beautiful thing! :D

[indian joe]

Sometimes obsolete means exactly that. A good example is the .348 Winchester. A fine cartridge that is obsolete.

It has little to do with being able to kill game. Heck almost anything will kill deer at 100 yards.

Remember we are a small and unimportant subset of the gun community. Our perceptions will be different.

Depends on yr definition of obsolete I guess - some would argue the 348 was obsolete the day winchester released it
I have a 348 rifle bought new in the late 1990's - could still buy new brass for it a year ago - the cartridge itself is a modern high intensity round - whats obsolete?
OTOH I also have a 45/75 bought new this century - could buy new brass for it a dozen years ago (if you were quick!) - the action design predates modern steel and the cartridge is a blackpowder design from 140 odd years ago - thats obsolete by some definitions but under our aussie LAW - ammo is available someplace so its not classed obsolete for the purposes of registration.
All depends whos writing the definition :bigsmyl2:

[sharps4590]

Obsolete cartridge? No such thing....at my house and, matter of fact, I prefer them. There's a lathe and mill in my basement shop mostly just for cartridge conversion and I am far from being a rarity in that regard. When I'm browsing the auction sites or for sale boards on various web sites the only thing that perks me up is when the cartridge is uncommon, unpopular and best of all, unheard of by most shooters. I hunt with; 9.3 X 75R Nimrod, 10.5 X 47R, 9 X 71 Peterlongo, 9.3 X 57R, 9.3 X 55R, 9 X 57 and 9.3 X 57 Mauser and don't even think about getting my 1886 Winchester in 40-82 away from me. First hog I ever killed was with that rifle and it went down just fine, thank you very much. Subsequent hogs and deer shot with my namesake Sharps 45-90 or my Sharps 40-70 hit the ground where they stood except for one muley forky. He had the audacity to actually turn around before he fell over.

Old, yes. Uncommon, yes. Unpopular, undoubtedly. Unheard of...some of mine are. Unavailable, nearly all mine are. Obsolete.....not on your life.

[Kev18]

Ouch! Wish you'd asked sooner since .40-82 WCF can be formed from Starline .45-90 brass that is fairly easily purchased from several Canadian distributors. A set of dies, a suitable 240 to 260 grain mould, a bit of brass, and you're off to the range ... and for a lot LESS than $1,000!

(And if you're interested in some information about loading for the .40-82 WCF pop me a PM. I've loaded for it in an 1886 and in my current 1885 High Wall single shot. It can be frustrating to get it shooting well until you know the "secrets" of loading for it!)

Thanks! It took me 2 years to find a load. With BP or the wrong smokeless loads. I wouldnt hit a piece of paper at point blank range. I have no idea where the bullet ended up... My 40-82 cases are made of 45-90 ones. I still shoot 90% of the ones I originally had( probably around 20-30 cases) The other 10% I sacrificed while reloading.

It was the first caliber I reloaded for and my first rifle I ever purchased... I was 18 at the time I think. In college. Not alot of money ( still not alot!) You can imagine the frustration and lack of knowledge. I asked everyone I knew and at gun stores but no one knows what that old stuff is. I have every articles, and most of the knowledge about 40-82 and 1886's out there I think. Im 22 now and know this rifle inside out!

If you have anything to share you can PM me if you want. Always glad to gain some know-how ;)

What fps do you shoot at? Mine is an original (original barrel) I know people get new barrels and shoot at 3000fps.

[Kev18]

(And if you're interested in some information about loading for the .40-82 WCF pop me a PM. I've loaded for it in an 1886 and in my current 1885 High Wall single shot. It can be frustrating to get it shooting well until you know the "secrets" of loading for it!)

People helping people, it's a beautiful thing! :D

Dont you love meeting people with the same passion as you? Its great!

[Kev18]

Obsolete cartridge? No such thing....at my house and, matter of fact, I prefer them. There's a lathe and mill in my basement shop mostly just for cartridge conversion and I am far from being a rarity in that regard. When I'm browsing the auction sites or for sale boards on various web sites the only thing that perks me up is when the cartridge is uncommon, unpopular and best of all, unheard of by most shooters. I hunt with; 9.3 X 75R Nimrod, 10.5 X 47R, 9 X 71 Peterlongo, 9.3 X 57R, 9.3 X 55R, 9 X 57 and 9.3 X 57 Mauser and don't even think about getting my 1886 Winchester in 40-82 away from me. First hog I ever killed was with that rifle and it went down just fine, thank you very much. Subsequent hogs and deer shot with my namesake Sharps 45-90 or my Sharps 40-70 hit the ground where they stood except for one muley forky. He had the audacity to actually turn around before he fell over.

Old, yes. Uncommon, yes. Unpopular, undoubtedly. Unheard of...some of mine are. Unavailable, nearly all mine are. Obsolete.....not on your life.

Me to , im attracted to the odd stuff. I dont have a lathe or anything so I try to do everything by hand! Takes a while sometimes sadly. What fps and bullet are you shooting in the 40-82?
https://i.imgur.com/oCD6bsJ.jpg

[762 shooter]

My 109 year old caliber 375 H and H is still fun to shoot, even though nobody uses it much now a days.

762

[sharps4590]

Give it time Kev, you'll get there. I'm precisely 3 times older than you and I've been at it since 1961 when Dad taught me to load with his old Lee "whack-a-mole" handloader. I was loading for the 40-82 long before you were born.....EGADS......I'm old!!!! Nahh...it's only a number. Anyway, I settled on the same 34 gr. of IMR-3031 with an open cell foam filler and either my 260 gr. cast bullet....I think from a Lyman mold or Hawk's jacketed bullet for the 40-82. I'd have to check my records but I'm about positive it's running in the 1430-1460 range.

As far as really obsolete, I have a pretty decent Schuetzen rifle that even the immensely knowledgeable Axel Eichendorff had never heard of. We ended up calling it an "8.7 X 55R" just because that was the dimensions. Had to have custom dies made and until I got them the way I loaded it was.....well, either very clever or could have provided comic relief.

[Kev18]

Give it time Kev, you'll get there. I'm precisely 3 times older than you and I've been at it since 1961 when Dad taught me to load with his old Lee "whack-a-mole" handloader. I was loading for the 40-82 long before you were born.....EGADS......I'm old!!!! Nahh...it's only a number. Anyway, I settled on the same 34 gr. of IMR-3031 with an open cell foam filler and either my 260 gr. cast bullet....I think from a Lyman mold or Hawk's jacketed bullet for the 40-82. I'd have to check my records but I'm about positive it's running in the 1430-1460 range.

As far as really obsolete, I have a pretty decent Schuetzen rifle that even the immensely knowledgeable Axel Eichendorff had never heard of. We ended up calling it an "8.7 X 55R" just because that was the dimensions. Had to have custom dies made and until I got them the way I loaded it was.....well, either very clever or could have provided comic relief.

I reload with 34 grains 3031 and cormeal filler. Nothing else worked! I just got a 300 grain mold made. Works really well, I usually shot a 260grain casted from an ideal reloading tool.

[Reverend Al]

Yep, same here. I took my load data from 2 magazine articles by Mike Venturino about reloading for the .40-82 WCF. I had the same results he did with hang fires and shotgun sized "patterns" rather than "groups" as close as 25 yards. Once I used the cornmeal filler that he settled on in his articles my 1886 Winchester would shoot 2" to 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Sadly, I was talked out of that rapid taper barrel '86 Winchester by a gentleman who just HAD to have it for his collection (plus he paid me a HUGE amount of money compared to what I had originally paid for the rifle) so I let it go to him. Thankfully I kept the RCBS dies, Lyman mould, and formed brass for it which helped immensely when I found and bought a nice old Winchester 1885 High Wall single shot in .40-82. It likes that same Venturino load with the cornmeal filler too ...

https://i.imgur.com/i7L6I7f.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oYkEWy7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aNXglkl.jpg

[sharps4590]

Al, love that rifle!! The patina is perfect.

A word on cornmeal filler. If you leave the cartridges loaded very long it turns almost solid. 20 years ago, or more, I pulled all mine, dumped the corn meal then recharged the cases and used open cell foam for a filler. A perusal of the "Finding Out For Myself" articles by Sherman Bell in the "Double Gun and Single Shot Journal" will turn up his comprehensive work with fillers and the pressures they generate. To say it is enlightening is understatement. Also, Grahame Wrights book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" has pressure data with fillers worked up by Kynoch and the Birmingham proof house.

[Kev18]

Yep, same here. I took my load data from 2 magazine articles by Mike Venturino about reloading for the .40-82 WCF. I had the same results he did with hang fires and shotgun sized "patterns" rather than "groups" as close as 25 yards. Once I used the cornmeal filler that he settled on in his articles my 1886 Winchester would shoot 2" to 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Sadly, I was talked out of that rapid taper barrel '86 Winchester by a gentleman who just HAD to have it for his collection (plus he paid me a HUGE amount of money compared to what I had originally paid for the rifle) so I let it go to him. Thankfully I kept the RCBS dies, Lyman mould, and formed brass for it which helped immensely when I found and bought a nice old Winchester 1885 High Wall single shot in .40-82. It likes that same Venturino load with the cornmeal filler too ...

https://i.imgur.com/i7L6I7f.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oYkEWy7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aNXglkl.jpg

You're lucky to have a rifle like that! I haven't seen any at gun shows. Only replicas and one low wall 25-20 in pristine condition that I could of had for a decent price but I just didnt want a small caliber. I would love a single shot that is big bore.

[Traffer]

@Reverend AL,
Sorry you parted with your 86, But that high wall is one beautiful rifle.

[Kev18]

I have a gun show coming up the 20th. Hopefully il find something nice :/ Not 1885 nice but something that butters my buns hopefully.

[Reverend Al]

Yes, I love my old single shots and have a variety of High Walls, Low Walls, Ballards, Maynards, Stevens, Martinis, Rolling Blocks, German Schuetzen rifles, etc. A total of 40 years of efforts in finding and then buying interesting old relic rifles (as long as they still have shootable bores ... I pass on the "rusted out" relics). I've been hoping for a .38-56 WCF too and have a set of RCBS dies on the shelf waiting for one to arrive, but it's tough to find one with a good shooter bore that won't require re-mortgaging the house! I was tempted by another HW in .38-56 about a year ago, but the bore was just too scruffy and pitted to convince me to buy it at the offered price.

[indian joe]

Me to , im attracted to the odd stuff. I dont have a lathe or anything so I try to do everything by hand! Takes a while sometimes sadly. What fps and bullet are you shooting in the 40-82?
https://i.imgur.com/oCD6bsJ.jpg

Kev
1963 -----I was 15 yrs old and just escaped from 3 years of high school to work on the family farm - took my first weeks pay (five "quid" about 14U$ at the time) and bought a worn 1892 saddle Ring Carbine from a kid I went to school with - we did the handover at the local scout hut one night in the dead of winter - I "borrowed" the farm ute and drove the backroads to town, parked it behind a bush, hopped the fence with no thought of trouble, walked straight into the local cop in full uniform, I had forgot he was the assistant scout master - what r you doin here ? er ........just came to pick up this gun off me mate - -yeah but ya didnt walk in the dark did ya? -- er ......er.... git goin - but the next time I catch you drivin without a licence is trouble ok .

That old 32/20 was the start of it all - two years later I loaded my first blackpowder - my Dad went to a conference in Sydney and came back on the DC3 with five pounds of Blackpowder in his briefcase in the cabin luggage! ..................Imagine that now!!!

I always wanted a big lever gun - missed on a good 76 when I was about your age , again when I was in my 40's a shootable 76 rifle for under a grand and I missed it, same again a few years later - finally lashed out and bought a new Uberti 1876 about four years back - we dont see the big levers much downunder - (never been a need for them really except for feral pests in the desert country and up north) - so a used 76, or 86 or even moreso a 71 is a rare find here. (I have all three in new made replicas so I feel lucky in that) I figure I have 15 years left where I can still lift one of those and shoot it standing up.

Stay safe and enjoy your old guns !!!

[Kev18]

Kev
1963 -----I was 15 yrs old and just escaped from 3 years of high school to work on the family farm - took my first weeks pay (five "quid" about 14U$ at the time) and bought a worn 1892 saddle Ring Carbine from a kid I went to school with - we did the handover at the local scout hut one night in the dead of winter - I "borrowed" the farm ute and drove the backroads to town, parked it behind a bush, hopped the fence with no thought of trouble, walked straight into the local cop in full uniform, I had forgot he was the assistant scout master - what r you doin here ? er ........just came to pick up this gun off me mate - -yeah but ya didnt walk in the dark did ya? -- er ......er.... git goin - but the next time I catch you drivin without a licence is trouble ok .

That old 32/20 was the start of it all - two years later I loaded my first blackpowder - my Dad went to a conference in Sydney and came back on the DC3 with five pounds of Blackpowder in his briefcase in the cabin luggage! ..................Imagine that now!!!

I always wanted a big lever gun - missed on a good 76 when I was about your age , again when I was in my 40's a shootable 76 rifle for under a grand and I missed it, same again a few years later - finally lashed out and bought a new Uberti 1876 about four years back - we dont see the big levers much downunder - (never been a need for them really except for feral pests in the desert country and up north) - so a used 76, or 86 or even moreso a 71 is a rare find here. (I have all three in new made replicas so I feel lucky in that) I figure I have 15 years left where I can still lift one of those and shoot it standing up.

Stay safe and enjoy your old guns !!!

Sometimes we don't require needs, wants are enough! I want alot of things but I surely don't need them :)

[Good Cheer]

Who wouldn't love to have a good used .350 Remington and shoot paper patched black powder loads in it?
Or in their .375H&H?
Or .416?
Or .458?

These modern guns just give us more opportunities for fun.

[Good Cheer]

Plotting on finding out how much black a .41 Mag will hold behind a paper patched #403169.

[Jack Stanley]

Not obsolete ................. just sometimes hard to get brass for .

Jack

[Kev18]

Some might think they are weak, or obsolete but they look great!
https://i.imgur.com/O5dOTs4.jpg

[veeman]

That's a neat picture. Nice 86 too. Caliber?

[veeman]

My 2 favorite obsoletes..
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/54529145606/small/1556228096/enhance

[John Boy]

I wish i could buy. 32 rf! I'm having issues with mind to make brass and i posted in the reloading equipment and gunsmithing threads about my adventures.
Key - Yes you can buy 32 RF cases ... I sent Roberson Cartridge Co a couple of 32 Long RF cases. The toke their 32 Long CF cases and opened up the primer pocket and cut a slit in the rim for 50 cases. I reload the RF's in my Stevens 1872 Tip Up using 6mm Flobert primers and they work just fine

[Kev18]

That's a neat picture. Nice 86 too. Caliber?

40-82 Made in 1888-89.

[Kev18]

Key - Yes you can buy 32 RF cases ... I sent Roberson Cartridge Co a couple of 32 Long RF cases. The toke their 32 Long CF cases and opened up the primer pocket and cut a slit in the rim for 50 cases. I reload the RF's in my Stevens 1872 Tip Up using 6mm Flobert primers and they work just fine

Look on the gunsmithing thread. I made a post about my issues. I ahd to change the firing pin and stuff... It hits way to low on my Favorite.

[Bazoo]

Interesting thread thanks for sharing everyone.

When I read the title, I couldn't help but think, I have what made those old cartridges obsolete... That barrel burnin hotrod of the day... The 30WCF!

[Kev18]

Interesting thread thanks for sharing everyone.

When I read the title, I couldn't help but think, I have what made those old cartridges obsolete... That barrel burnin hotrod of the day... The 30WCF!

Yeah, new cartridges are the issue. 3000 fps and 250grains + of a rocket causing death.

Don't think a 300 + grain 1200fps torpedo wont knock you off your feet ;) :kidding:

[Kev18]

My 2 favorite obsoletes..
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/54529145606/small/1556228096/enhance

Are they originals? what caliber?

[veeman]

I wish. the 86 is a Browning 45/70, the 76 is Uberti, 45-75.

[Kev18]

I wish. the 86 is a Browning 45/70, the 76 is Uberti, 45-75.

Well to be honest repros usually cost more then originals but people like them better because you dont need low fps rounds. Still nice rifles!

[Traffer]

Well to be honest repros usually cost more then originals but people like them better because you dont need low fps rounds. Still nice rifles!

That's news to me. I think that there would be a lot of guys wondering where you can find originals cheaper than the repros. I think maybe you have been extremely lucky in finding treasures at bargain prices. Maybe you should have your guns looked over by someone who knows values well. You may find that they are worth a lot more than you realize.
OR I COULD BE COMPLETELY WRONG....THAT HAS BEEN KNOWN TO HAPPEN.

[indian joe]

That's news to me. I think that there would be a lot of guys wondering where you can find originals cheaper than the repros. I think maybe you have been extremely lucky in finding treasures at bargain prices. Maybe you should have your guns looked over by someone who knows values well. You may find that they are worth a lot more than you realize.
OR I COULD BE COMPLETELY WRONG....THAT HAS BEEN KNOWN TO HAPPEN.

Traffer
I was going to make similar comment ----downunder we dont see hardly any of the big winchesters and the few are very pricey - too much dollars for me for sure - the last shootable 86 I saw was $4K (probably cheap at the price it was a decent gun) - I bought my repro Chiappa for a touch less than half - yeah the Chiappa will (maybe) hold its value as money inflates away and the antique will for sure gain in value over the years - I am gonna keep it and shoot it so the benefit of an antique would pass to someone else anyway ----------model 92's are still plentiful - beaters specially - and you can buy one and rebarrel it cheaper than a new rossi - provided you can do the barrel work or have a mate will do it (both for me so am lucky). Like you I think Kev has probably been fortunate - its great to see a young feller with his interest and even better that he's been presented with opportunities

[Kev18]

Traffer
I was going to make similar comment ----downunder we dont see hardly any of the big winchesters and the few are very pricey - too much dollars for me for sure - the last shootable 86 I saw was $4K (probably cheap at the price it was a decent gun) - I bought my repro Chiappa for a touch less than half - yeah the Chiappa will (maybe) hold its value as money inflates away and the antique will for sure gain in value over the years - I am gonna keep it and shoot it so the benefit of an antique would pass to someone else anyway ----------model 92's are still plentiful - beaters specially - and you can buy one and rebarrel it cheaper than a new rossi - provided you can do the barrel work or have a mate will do it (both for me so am lucky). Like you I think Kev has probably been fortunate - its great to see a young feller with his interest and even better that he's been presented with opportunities

Well im not sure id say fortunate. (Story time.) For example:
(Picture above)
My 86 was bought in college in between classes. I went to the store 5 minutes away with maybe 400$. I was browsing and asked to see the rifle with the octagon barrel on the floor.... And there it was. The man said it was a project rifle nad that he couldn't make a good deal on it because the employee paid way to much. He was asking 300$ so I got him down to 275$ I think, might be 250$.
Octagon barrel,button/halfmag, with leaf rear sight. All original. I brought it to a gunsmith after shooting it and he was awinchester collector. It was rusty and dirty still. He said for it in this condition before cleaning it all up. he would personally give me 3000$. WIN FOR ME.

https://i.imgur.com/DvofRUW.jpg
I bought a Winchester 1873 44-40 made in 1888 fully nickel plated. Not original from factory. When I bought it an old man at a table saw me and said it's not worth alot because it isnt factory. keep in mind its an old plating. It also has the Canadian motto painted on the stock (its very brittle and old paint). Paid the dang thing 3000$ at a gunshow with my dad as the bad influence. He doesnt know a whole lot about guns but freaked when he saw it and convinced me. So far everyone iv'e asked about value said that it is rare enough to have it nickel plated and it's in extreme demand. They said between 3000$-4000$. MAYBE A WIN!?

https://i.imgur.com/gPt8za9.jpg
Not a winchester but I bought a Stevens high power model 425 in .32 Remington. Which I heard museums are looking for them with the serial numebrs because they are extremely rare with only about 1000 made that are known so far... Paid it 1100$. MAYBE A WIN!?

https://i.imgur.com/P6diYNd.jpg
Bought an 1887 shotgun 12gauge made in 1888. I've been wanting one forever. They look awesome I find. Gun show find again... Its in awesome condition, except for a chip out the stock that had been nailed in but I dont mind, it gives character. The guy wanted 1000$. I said 800$, he smiled, and agreed to my surprise. I saw one later on at another show that was super rusty and the guy wanted 1200$. LOOKS LIKE A WIN!

https://i.imgur.com/h98dHlM.jpg
Umm... 11/10 gauge WC scott and sons SxS? Not a lever gun but im trying to find what I think I did decent on? They sell for crazy amounts. it has pitting around the bore, but thats it. Fully engraved and all. Not one of my favorites but hey... The guy said 11 gauge and it intrigued me. It also says 11 under the forearm but I shoot handloaded 10's. I asked a man at a gun show that had one and he said its extremely possible for it to be an 11. He said the gap between 10 and 11 is pretty small so maybe they both chamber. It works, and its nice so that's all I care about.

Ya soo... I dont think I have anymore pictures and I can't think of any other guns I have that would intrigue you guys. I'd need to go in the safe and check. They are't all nice... I have alot of 100$ guns also! Thanks for reading if you got this far :lovebooli

[Bazoo]

Pretty awesome guns Kev, the deal just makes it sweeter. If it were me, I'd us em too.

[Kev18]

Pretty awesome guns Kev, the deal just makes it sweeter. If it were me, I'd us em too.

I don't own anything I wouldn't shoot. I use everything I have.