How many realize?

[wmitty]

I’d like to ask a question and I am quite serious in this. I have been very unsuccessful In discussing this with my fellow believers at the church where I worship; which is discouraging. I would like to know how many of you realize that our Lord returned in 70 a.d. at the siege of Jerusalem; just as He said He would.

[sniper]

Hello;
I believe that The Savior has appeared numerous times to counsel and direct men on Earth. But HIS final, Glorious returning, when death, hunger, war and other unpleasantness have all been done away, and Satan will be bound for 1,000 years (Rev. 20: 2-3) and ..." Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess"... that he is the Literal Son of God, our Savior and Redeemer Who, through his Atonement and Resurrection overcame death, making it so all will be resurrected and have the ability to live eternally with HIM and Our Heavenly Father eternally, has not occurred...YET. But it will, and the time is growing short.

I admit I had not realized that HE returned during the siege of Jerusalem, and I'd be interested in the basis of your knowledge.

[Thundarstick]

I'm thinking you've been lead astray by others that can't properly divide the scriptures.

[wmitty]

I should have added that I would like to hear everyone’s response; whether you agree, disagree or are indifferent. I should also have mentioned that I am referring to the Lord’s words from Matt. 24 and Luke 21 regarding the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by the Romans.

Sniper: As hard as it is for me to say this, I was shown this along with the knowledge that men are mortal and do not survive being cast into the Lake; and also the knowledge that the Lord chooses whomever He wishes to have the gift of salvation. Men don’t choose; our Creator chooses. A believer can request from the Father that a non-believer be given eternal Life; but the decision is the Lords - John 1v 12

[1hole]

Well Mitty, I just scanned Mt. 24 and Luke 21 to refresh my memory. The Roman murders and destruction of both Jerusalem and Herod's temple in 70 AD were devastating to the Jews but I don't see how/where you find that Jesus "returned" then. ???

[1hole]

Okay, Mitty, just to keep things clear, your second issue referencing how bodies can't withstand a lake of fire seems to be missing a few points, especially the fact that ALL dead folk will eventually rise and be issued a new, everlasting body that will "live" forever. The saved will live eternally on a rebuilt earth free from all the agonies of sin while the lost will be sentenced to spend eternity in the lake of fire. That living Hell is the immortal second death, a living death, not the mortal death we now know.

(See Rev. - 2:11; 20:6; 20:14; 21:8 for second death)


Note there is nothing in scripture suggesting the resurrected lost of humanity will experience a momentary flash of fire followed by a (Jehovah Witness mistake) total anniliation. IF that were true there would be no real Godly punishment even for the bloody likes of Nero, Saddam Hussian, Hitler, etc. Instead, it seems the inhabitants of hell will not just burn forever but also suffer from eternal worms eating them internally as their decaying flesh constantly regenerates even as it constantly rots away. Picture the dripping "living dead" as they're shown in horror movies.

(See Mark 9:44-46)

[Ickisrulz]

Okay, Mitty, just to keep things clear, your second issue referencing how bodies can't withstand a lake of fire seems to be missing a few points, especially the fact that ALL dead folk will eventually rise and be issued a new, everlasting body that will "live" forever. The saved will live eternally on a rebuilt earth free from all the agonies of sin while the lost will be sentenced to spend eternity in the lake of fire. That living Hell is the immortal second death, a living death, not the mortal death we now know.

(See Rev. - 2:11; 20:6; 20:14; 21:8 for second death)


Note there is nothing in scripture suggesting the resurrected lost of humanity will experience a momentary flash of fire followed by a (Jehovah Witness mistake) total anniliation. IF that were true there would be no real Godly punishment even for the bloody likes of Nero, Saddam Hussian, Hitler, etc. Instead, it seems the inhabitants of hell will not just burn forever but also suffer from eternal worms eating them internally as their decaying flesh constantly regenerates even as it constantly rots away. Picture the dripping "living dead" as they're shown in horror movies.

(See Mark 9:44-46)

FYI

Worms, darkness and fire are figures that are not intended to be taken literally. They are intended to be scary and given as a warning. I know that you will not agree with this, but I decided to say it anyway.

In a similar vein, God does not sit on a throne or wear a crown. Jesus does not have white hair or glowing feet. The streets of heaven are not paved with gold. The creatures seen by and described by Isaiah and Ezekiel are object lessons rather than actual angelic beings, etc.

Not everything in scripture is literal.

[wmitty]

First, thanks for posting your comments. Regarding Matt 24, men living in this physical world cannot look upon the glory of Jesus Christ. From Verse 30 ... and then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Interlinear greek - English New Testament; j.p. Green editor)
Notice who will see the Son of Man in His coming; it is the tribes of the land (those who had rejected Him as their Messiah).
Verse 34 : Truly I say to you, in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. He returned just as He said He would. He is Creator! It’s His choice to speak in a literal sense or a spiritual sense. He returned in his glorified body, unseen by living men.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

And St. Stephen also saw Him in all his glory. So what of it?

[PowPow]

Mitty, are you saying that you're reading Matthew 24:29-31 as describing Jesus' visible, bodily, and triumphant return in 70 A.D.? How to you relate this (if at all) to Revelation 20?

[1hole]

Ickisrulz;4676421


Me: I still wonder what rule you suggest you (and we?) follow to determine where and how to make decisions that streets of gold, angelic beings, worms, eternal darkness, etc., really aren't what is written?

You answer several unasked questions but neither I nor anyone else has suggested that parable stories are anything other than vivid object lessons.

And, sure, tons of books have been written by men addressing all kinds of Bible topics, including prophecy but ... what does that prove?

Anyway, what I would really like to know is do you have an author or book or at least some kind of general guideline you can recommend to tell us all, with your level of certainty, what the Bible means when all those symbolic examples you mention are in the text? I mean things like heaven's streets won't be gold and angelic beings aren't real, etc.

Neither of my Interliniar Bibles, nor my Strong's, Vine's, Bauer, Zodhiates word study books, at least a half dozen excellent Bible lexicons and dictionaries, a full four feet of bookshelf stuffed with prophecy books and more commentaries than I will try to count don't tell me (with your level of certainty) what is and is not metaphor.

I enjoy Bible study and want to learn, so what do I lack, what additional source(s) do you suggest I acquire to correct for that omission??

Thing is, you very positively posted a few interesting thoughts without support and now give some random examples of similar things that often get questioned. But you still haven't addressed my single question, "Where and how do you judge what is and is not symbolic"; we still have no clue what rule you would suggest for us to follow to get us to the certainty level where you are. ??

[Ickisrulz]

I do wonder what rule you suggest you (and we?) follow to determine where and how to make decisions that streets of gold, angelic beings, worms, eternal darkness, etc., really aren't what is written?/I]

Many books have been written on biblical interpretation. There are also some good online resources.

Here are a few things off the top of my head:

Apocalyptic literature such as Revelations, portions of Daniel, etc. are high in imagery and symbolism by design. The original readers would have taken very little of the visions and other bizarre descriptions as something that actually existed. This would include visions given to Old Testament Prophets and New Testament Apostles (for the most part).

Parables should not be taken literally.

Lessons using metaphors should not be taken literally. This would include Jesus' warnings about the disposition of the wicked since they were obviously patterned after familiar human activities (burning the trash, being locked out of a house at night, the decay of a dead body).

Instructions using symbols should not be taken literally. This would include Jesus' instructions on Holy Communion (at least for non-Catholics).

Physical descriptions of God are meant to express grandeur or another important trait. For example, God doesn't have feathers or wings as depicted in Psalms.

Figures of speech should not be taken literally. It's sometimes hard to identify a figure of speech. For example, 1000 in the OT certainly did not mean what it does to us today. It meant a large group of people. 40 is similar in that it meant a complete or long period of time as used throughout the Bible. "All the earth" never means absolutely everyone.

[PowPow]

If you haven't seen this, you're in for a treat. (and also a lot of laughs)

An Evening of Eschatology – Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S0TQ2dXnms