S&W Barrels

[Art in Colorado]

I might not know what I am talking about so correct me if wrong. I think I read someplace several years ago S&W webt to EDM rifeling in their revolver barrels that caused some very rough rifeling. They finally saw the error of their ways and went back to their older rifeling. Is this correct? I am considering buying one of their new version of their 610 and would like to know what I might be getting myself involved in.

[M-Tecs]

They have been using ECM since 1993 and to the best of my knowledge they are still using it. I have a bunch of post 93 S&W's. Never had a barrel issue.

http://www.benchrest.com/showthread.php?76633-S-amp-W-using-ECM-to-rifle-their-barrels!

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...-chemical.html

Sunday, May 23, 2010
Rifling: Manufacturing: Electro Chemical Machining
In our last post, we talked about a modern manufacturing process called Electric Discharge Machining (EDM). In this post, we will talk about another process that also uses electricity, named Electro Chemical Machining (ECM).

This method is also a very precise method, but it is much more suitable for mass production. Like the EDM process, the ECM process can also be used on hard materials that cannot be machined by other more mechanical processes. Unlike the EDM process, no sparks are generated between the cathode and anode. The best way to understand ECM is to think of it as reverse-electroplating (i.e.) instead of adding material, we remove it.

Since 1993, Smith & Wesson has been using ECM to manufacture most of their revolver barrels. They use machines manufactured by Surftran to do their work. The barrels are hardened and annealed before the rifling process. The hardened barrels are then placed in the ECM machine and held stationary. The electrode is a plastic cylinder with metal strips circling around the exterior. The metal strips are a reverse image of the desired rifling and are inset into the plastic cylinder. This way, only the plastic part of the cylinder touches the barrel and not the metal strips. The electrode is placed inside the barrel and the whole is immersed into an electrolytic solution of sodium nitrate which is constantly circulating under pressure. The electrode is moved down the barrel and rotated at the desired rate of rifling twist. As current flows from the cathode (the electrode) to the anode (the barrel), the material is removed from the anode to duplicate the grooves in the shape of the electrode. Because the metal parts of the electrode never actually touch the barrel (only the plastic core does) and because the flowing electrolyte removes any material from the barrel before it has a chance to accumulate on the metal strips, the electrode usually lasts a very long time and needs no cleaning or maintenance. In fact, the electrode is replaced only when the plastic core which contacts the barrel to provide proper centering and spacing of the metal strips, wears out.

The advantages of this are that the process is extremely precise and can be used to machine hard materials like hard steel alloys, titanium alloys etc. Similar to the EDM process, it also produces no heat or stress on the barrel during the rifling process and also produces an excellent finish. Unlike the EDM process though, it is much faster to machine parts using this technique. A typical rifling job for a 357 magnum revolver barrel can be done in about one minute using this process, making it ideal for mass production. The tool can also be repeatedly used as there is very little tool wear.

The disadvantages are that these machines have high tooling cost and also use large amounts of electricity.

[JeffG]

Interesting

[onelight]

Thanks for kicking that under the rock where I live M-Tecs , I had no idea they were rifling like that.
Interesting stuff.

[Texas by God]

Great post, M-Tecs. I always wondered, now I know.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

It's not the process you need to be concerned with. ECM rifling works just fine. What you need to be concerned with is that Smith and Wesson can't produce good revolvers consistently. They are on par with Taurus for quality, although at about 2x the price. I wouldn't even consider a S&W 610 when you can get a Ruger GP100 in 10mm.

[Art in Colorado]

The S&W 610 is hard to find but I can get the Ruger now for about $100 less. Will go that way if I decide on a 10MM Revolver. Thanks to all for the info.

[Petrol & Powder]

There's nothing wrong with creating rifling by the EDM method (Thank you M-Tec for the article) and I wouldn't consider that to be a deal breaker when looking for a revolver.
However, I have to agree with magasupermagnum that the Ruger is a better deal.

[Wayne Dobbs]

They may be proud of that process, but all the chrono data I've seen shows those barrels don't develop the same velocities that a cut rifled barrel of the same length does.

[roysha]

They may be proud of that process, but all the chrono data I've seen shows those barrels don't develop the same velocities that a cut rifled barrel of the same length does.

Can you explain why?

[Petrol & Powder]

They may be proud of that process, but all the chrono data I've seen shows those barrels don't develop the same velocities that a cut rifled barrel of the same length does.
Not the same velocity as in faster? Or not the same as in slower?

[murf205]

All barrels are their own personality but I have a ECM barrelled 4" 629 that is a fast barrel. Not the most accurate wheel gun I own but not a dog either. Unfortunately for my hand, it is most accurate with 300 gr Lee GC'd boolit at 1230 fps. That sounded like a bogus figure so I clocked it again and it was within 25-40 fps of the first time. It has a lot of torque!

[megasupermagnum]

With how much identical guns can vary in velocity, you would need to test 100 guns of button rifled vs 100 identical guns of ECM rifled to have any statistical evidence to make such a claim as one being faster or slower shooting than the other.

[LUBEDUDE]

Don’t know how the new 610s shoot. I have over a dozen 10s and my old model 610 is the most enjoyable for me to shoot. And even though Ruger DA revolvers don’t appeal to me I am seriously thinking of getting a 10mm Redhawk or GP 100 if I see one at the Gun show this weekend.

[gnostic]

If you're shooting double action the S&W is by far the best, as a result of the non stacking trigger and quick reset. People bashing S&W usually 'know a guy, that had a friend, that had a bad revolver. I own at least a dozen S&W handguns and they're all great.

My S&W guns were built from 1950 to about 1995. That might be the reason I have a high opinion of S&W. I haven't bought a new handgun in years, as I already have way more guns than I shoot...

[DougGuy]

There have been a few posts here concerning some serious artifacts and defects in some of the S&W rifling, mostly in the forcing cone area. I have seen more than one 357 caliber revolver with "islands" in the middle of the grooves at the forcing cone, for lack of a more descriptive term, and there was severe leading involved. It's been a good while since one of these threads have been active but they exist.

[megasupermagnum]

I had a model 57-6, three of them actually. The first the barrel was bad. I fought S&W for 4 months and they refused to replace it. Luckly gallery of guns exchanged it. The second one shot great for about 20 rounds, right up until the cylinder and crane fell out the front of the gun. Exchanged it again, and sold the third as brand new, never even fired it, for $200 less than I originally paid for the first one. Smith and Wesson, especially Paul Remore who strung me along for 4 months can stick their $1000 dollars revolvers you know where.

It took me a full year, but I finally located an old 57-1 from back when S&W built working revolvers. It is a quality gun. The old ones are what you want. Definitely nothing post-Clinton era.

The new smith revolvers? No way. You might get a good one, or you might get stuffed. That is first hand experience, and I lost a lot of time and money in that deal.

My GP100 double action triggers do not stack at all. Out of the box they are better than new S&W. The only thing S&W has going for them on triggers is a wide trigger face. The feel is personal preference.

[megasupermagnum]

DougGuy, islands is as good a description as I've heard. My first 57-6 had a big one about 2" into the bore. It was a huge void. Any dummy with a cleaning rod could feel it. The first time I sent it into customer service (of either 3 or 4 trips, I paid shipping both ways) they shot it, and sent it back with the barrel PLUGGED with lead. The first 2 inches looked clean, and anything beyond that looked like a smooth bore. They claimed it was "in spec".

[onelight]

I like both Smith and Ruger and I buy more Rugers I like single action guns and the sp101s but I have had plenty of issues with them but have been able to fix them myself or Ruger has taken care of it , really good service when I have had to return them for a problem.
I find it disappointing that Smith and Ruger both seem to have so many quality issues . If you want new revolvers we don’t have near the choices we do with smiautos.
Ok done whining, I shoot a buddies gp100 357 often and it is one of the best shooting guns in double action I have shot that did not have an expensive trigger job it does have a spring kit installed.
But for me Smiths win the stock single action trigger comparison.
I would enjoy either in 10 mm ,

[tazman]

A few months ago I purchased a new S&W 686+(the 7 shot version) with a 6 inch barrel. It shoots fine with cast. At least as good as my 686-3 which has cut rifling and my K frame Target Masterpiece.
No leading in that revolver ever.
I would not be concerned about buying another one.

[arlon]

I had a 625-8 with very shallow ECM rifling and I could not get it to shoot to my needs. I eventually just gave up on it and sold it to a friend that just wanted a short range plate gun. He loves it for shooting 8" plates up close. I wanted it for silhouettes and was simply not accurate enough for that. Folks with 625s that had cut rifling seem to love them. I will never own another ECM version myself.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Not the same velocity as in faster? Or not the same as in slower?

Slower...

[Wayne Dobbs]

With how much identical guns can vary in velocity, you would need to test 100 guns of button rifled vs 100 identical guns of ECM rifled to have any statistical evidence to make such a claim as one being faster or slower shooting than the other.

I agree with you from the "n" standpoint, but when you see several sets of chrono data as close to apples-apples as possible and it all shows slower velocities for the electrically eroded rifling, in Texas we'd call that a clue. Especially since one of those sets came from Brian Pearce.