Trapdoor carbine load question?

[bpetersen]

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Here is my problem..
I am trying to make a decision on what powder to use for a low pressure load for a new to me 1873 trapdoor carbine made in 1881. I am trying to make a plinking load that will not damage this antique.

I was set to load black powder with a carbine load, 55gr. of power with a 405gr. HB lee mold bullet, with a wad, etc. I have reloaded a great deal but never black powder. Then after a lot of reading changed my mind to use smokeless using Unique or H4895. I have a lot of each. I reached out to Hodgdon about down loading H4895 and got this email.

"Only authentic Black Powder such as Goex fg or old eyensford 1.5f should be used in this original rifle. Smokeless powder can only be used in modern made reproductions."

I could swear hodgdon has load info on their website for loading 1873 trapdoors with smokeless.

So, now, I am in limbo. Do I need to learn how to load black powder for my TD??

Sorry, kind of lengthy.

Pete

[1Hawkeye]

38.0 grs of imr 3031 with a 405 gr should duplicate the 55 gr black powder load.

[pietro]

.

It's quite easy to make .45-70 Gallery black powder loads for the .45-70, using commercial (or homemade) .457" round lead balls (from any shop that sells frontstuffer supplies).


* Clean, sized & prime the case as usually.

* Pour in 5gr to 15gr of FFFg (test different loads within that span - a 5 gr charge of FFFg gives a velocity of 630 FPS)


* Use a wooden dowel just under the case I.D. and a mallet to drive the RB until it's resting on the powder charge.

(The above wooden dowel procedure is OK for occasional loads, but for larger batches, it's easier in the long run to have a much deeper seating plug made that screws into a normal .45-70 seating die.)

* Run the case mouth into a crimping die for E-Z-Peazy chambering (crimping the empty case mouth will do no harm)

Some BP lube (Crisco cooking lard from the grocery store is OK) applied atop the seated RB will help keep bore fouling to a minimum.

The easiest way to apply the lube is to spread the lube on a flat surface, press the mouth of the loaded case into the lube like it was a cookie cutter, than push the lube down onto the ball with the aforesaid wood dowel.

If the loads are going to be carried around for awhile, or used in hot weather, an additional thin cardboard wad atop the lube will keep everything sealed shut.

For cleanup, simply wash the empty case & the rifle's chamber * bore out with some hot water (very hot water, to heat the metal, will speed drying)




.

[17nut]

H4895 is way to slow for a reduced load!
Unique: 10-12 grains would be fine (1040-1140fps)

[Shawlerbrook]

Just scroll down in the cartridge section to 4570 Trapdoor and put in your bullet weight.


http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

[bpetersen]

Just scroll down in the cartridge section to 4570 Trapdoor and put in your bullet weight.


http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Thanks all for your replies.

I use the Hodgdon site all the time and have looked over the trapdoor loads a great deal. I just got a little spooked when Hodgdon emailed and stated, black powder only. I thought, gees, that is Hodgdon telling me this.

Pete

[LIMPINGJ]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment
Everything you need in this thread thanks to Larry.

[bpetersen]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment
Everything you need in this thread thanks to Larry.

Gees, that quite a post. Thanks Limpingj and Larry Gibson.

Pete

[oldred]

Thanks all for your replies.

I use the Hodgdon site all the time and have looked over the trapdoor loads a great deal. I just got a little spooked when Hodgdon emailed and stated, black powder only. I thought, gees, that is Hodgdon telling me this.

Pete

No mystery at all, it's called CYA and is due to greedy lawyers! It's the same reason extremely strong rifles like modern HighWalls and others mark the barrels with "Black Powder ONLY when chambered in obsolete non-SAAMI older BP cartridges. I know they have listed loads for Trapdoors in general (along with the usual disclaimers and admonishments to make certain the rifle is sound) but it gets even stickier if a particular firearm is the subject instead of a whole class of firearms. If they said "sure go ahead and use our smokeless, everything will be fine" and a blow-up happens due to unforeseen weaknesses in the rifle or bad loading procedure they could be opening themselves to even more liability than the generalized loading data. Down loading H4895 is not a bad idea at all for these rifles but other powders might work even better, 5744 maybe?

I would be leery of TrailBoss, while that powder is often used for low velocity plinking loads (indeed that's what it's meant for) it produces the desired low velocity at some surprisingly high pressures.

[Thomas Creek]

Can't go wrong with starting with 10-11 grains of Unique. Almost any weight bullet(400 grains or less). I n my opinion lighter is better than the 500 or so bullets. The rifle bore size is critical for accuracy with softer bullets working to fill it out. Trail Boss is also popular but I have not used it in rifle calibers but several pistol rounds. Probably can find info for Trail Boss from several sites.

[Zingger]

OldRed hit it on the head with the CYA, there are a great deal of variables in the safe to shoot equation. I have used Trailboss for my light loads and was happy with it, a puff and out the barrel. Like a giant pop-gun. Unique is also a great starting point to see what the rifle is going to like. While I haven't had much luck with it as most would have, 5744 is supposed to be an excellent powder to load your 45-70 with. Any way you look at it Pete, please give the rifle a thorough going over and ascertain that it is shootable.

[bpetersen]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Rifle was taken to a gunsmith but I am not sure he really knew that much about trapdoor. He spend about 5 minutes with it and said, good to go. I will find out.

Pete

[tbx-4]

I use 22 gr of 4895 with a 1-2 gr wad of Dacron and 405 gr flat base cast boolit in my TD Carbine. Shoots good and is real close to the original 55 gr BP carbine load. Burns clean too.

[bpetersen]

tbx-4
Is that H-4895 or IMR-4895?

Also, thanks for the post.

pete

[john.k]

never use wads....you will ring the chamber sooner or later..........this from someone who thought 50 years experience made him immune to such newbie troubles........IMHO,I would use TB,velocity is low for the pressure,but the stuff has other advantages ......it slugs up undersize bullets..............otherwise ,Unique is good too.....but you must be aware of the danger of double charging a big case.Dont get distracted while loading.

[bpetersen]

"but you must be aware of the danger of double charging a big case.Dont get distracted while loading."

Yep, heard that one... Could see the risk.

So, no wadding.... Will you get a delayed firing at times?

[oldred]

"but you must be aware of the danger of double charging a big case.Dont get distracted while loading."

Yep, heard that one... Could see the risk.

So, no wadding.... Will you get a delayed firing at times?

That would depend a lot on the powder used and if it happens with a particular powder then that powder could simply be a bad choice. Something like 5744 without filler should never cause something like that as it is supposed to be insensitive to position and is designed to function normally with a lot of air space in a case such as 45/70.

[Larry Gibson]

"Something like 5744 without filler should never cause something like that as it is supposed to be insensitive to position and is designed to function normally with a lot of air space in a case such as 45/70. "

That's what the advertising hype says but it ain't so, especially with 45-70 carbine level loads.

[john.k]

CYA is because once upon a time people had common sense,and accepted that if they got hurt doing something stupid ,it was their fault and non one else was to blame....Lawyers changed all that.

[Carrier]

I use 27 grains of H4198 under the Lee 405 HB powder coated bullet and it is an accurate load. According to Hodgdon H4198 starting load of 27 grains is 14,200 CUP compared to Trailboss starting load of 12 grains at 24,500 CUP.
However 60 to 65 grains of Goex FF is more accurate with the same bullet lubed.
Learning how to load with black powder is pretty easy. If I can do it anyone can.

[bpetersen]

When I was at Tulsa this spring. A gentleman next to my table was telling me he uses H4198. Went looking for some and couldn't find it anywhere at the show. Maybe I need to keep looking...

Thanks for your post.

Pete

[17nut]

I use 27 grains of H4198 under the Lee 405 HB powder coated bullet and it is an accurate load. According to Hodgdon H4198 starting load of 27 grains is 14,200 CUP compared to Trailboss starting load of 12 grains at 24,500 CUP.
However 60 to 65 grains of Goex FF is more accurate with the same bullet lubed.
Learning how to load with black powder is pretty easy. If I can do it anyone can.

Is H4198 some sort of super powder?

That 27 grains load only burns @75% of the powder in a 30" barrel.
Seems like a waste that could be remedied with a little less of a faster powder for the same result.

[Carrier]

Is H4198 some sort of super powder?

That 27 grains load only burns @75% of the powder in a 30" barrel.
Seems like a waste that could be remedied with a little less of a faster powder for the same result.

Not sure what you are talking about.

[john.k]

Loses something in translation,I suspect..........I think 4198 is the fastest of the IMR powders,which of course no longer exist ,since Du Pont no longer make powder.........I find it quite suitable for 45/70,but it is still somewhat position sensitive........In bigger cases ,supposedly recommended 4198 loads hangfire something terrible,and are certainly sensitive,and IMHO probably need the foam rod treatment..........and the next thing is "how I ringed my chamber with foam excluder rod."

[Drm50]

I use 2400 in original Trapdoors. I shot cast 322gr Gould Express Hp/ 20.5gr H-2400 at 1300fps. The 405gr I don't shoot that much but load is with H-2400 too. In my #1,#3 and Marlin 1895 I use IMR-3031 and JHPs.

[Carrier]

I just don’t get what is being said about H4198 powder. I’ve shot several hundred of the load I talked about in my 1873 Trapdoor and have not experienced anything like what is being said about it. I use no fillers of any sort when loading smokeless powder.

[Chill Wills]

"Something like 5744 without filler should never cause something like that as it is supposed to be insensitive to position and is designed to function normally with a lot of air space in a case such as 45/70. "

That's what the advertising hype says but it ain't so, especially with 45-70 carbine level loads.

Thank you! That has been my experience also.
AA 5744 is a double based powder too. I do not know why but it is rumored Dacron, not a pushed down wad of it, but a loose fluff, is not a good idea with double based powders so ....244559244560 I don't know if this is true or not.

Floral foam is the product often used in smokeless Schuetzen breach seated loads like the 32-40 with a small charge of #9. Pictured is a 38-56 Winchester with an undisclosed powder.

[john.k]

The problem with all the old blackpowder calibers is they have too much space for smokeless powder......or to put it another way,the vast majority of smokeless powders are not designed with these old rounds in mind.A few are...........If you have a strong enough rifle ,and shoulder ,the large space can be used to full capacity for very powerful loads.....But very few want this,so the cases consequently have excessive space for the powder charge......However this is resolved is up to you.....And I might add,I went from the "Ill never ring a chamber" side to the "Gee,I wonder why cases are jamming?"side.....to the .....Gee ,it only took a hundred rounds with a couple of grains of powder...pipsqueak loads.

[40-82 hiker]

JMHO, but I would use aa5744 or BP. Some don't like the unburned powder left with aa5744 when used at the pressures we are talking about, but I use it in my original TD, original '86 Win, and RB. Accurate too... Never a problem... But, I am partial to it admittedly.

edit: cast your chamber so you know what is going on. I use 20:1 alloy.

[EDG]

Most powders do that at low pressures. The low pressures are courtesy of the antique rifle and not the fault of the powder. Got to a very fast powder and you might ring the chamber of an old rifle.
I use hotter loads to get rid of the un-burned particles but my Sharps is a modern replica.


Is H4198 some sort of super powder?

That 27 grains load only burns @75% of the powder in a 30" barrel.
Seems like a waste that could be remedied with a little less of a faster powder for the same result.

[17nut]

Thank you! That has been my experience also.
AA 5744 is a double based powder too. I do not know why but it is rumored Dacron, not a pushed down wad of it, but a loose fluff, is not a good idea with double based powders so ....244559244560 I don't know if this is true or not.

Floral foam is the product often used in smokeless Schuetzen breach seated loads like the 32-40 with a small charge of #9. Pictured is a 38-56 Winchester with an undisclosed powder.

Big difference there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The breach seaters use the foam to plug the powderfilled case so it will not spill into the action, NOT seated against the powder.
The "plug" will automatically rest against the bullet and no ringing will be possible at all.

[Chill Wills]

Big difference there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The breach seaters use the foam to plug the powderfilled case so it will not spill into the action, NOT seated against the powder.
The "plug" will automatically rest against the bullet and no ringing will be possible at all.

No. In the small case capicity rifles we use the foam both takes up most of the room holding back the powder and plugs the case for no spill loading during the match.
The Dacron in that application does the same. I have used Dacron in my Schuetzen cases too. Same same.
In the 32-40 you are correct in that the floral foam is just a plug to retain the powder.
In either case, Dacron or floral foam holds the powder with out being a dense filler. It is 99+ % empty air.

[Tom Herman]

Most powders do that at low pressures. The low pressures are courtesy of the antique rifle and not the fault of the powder. Got to a very fast powder and you might ring the chamber of an old rifle.
I use hotter loads to get rid of the un-burned particles but my Sharps is a modern replica.

All good points. I had been using 4198 for my loads in both the 11.7 Danish Remington (fireformed .45-70 brass) and my 1868 Springfield .50-70: Lots of unburned kernels, and the powder is very position sensitive.
The use of a paper filler (hello, Charmin!!!) cured that, but reading lots of postings, I decided the best bet is to go with a powder that doesn't need a filler.
I have started using 5744: This feels like I've eliminated the position sensitivity issues. There still is a bunch of unburned powder, but with a cavernous case and low pressure, it may simply be the nature of the beast.
I'm happy with the 5744 and will probably stick with it. I'm using about 25 grains as a starting point with both calibers.
For the Danish, I am using the Lee 405 grain HB bullet, the Springfield has a genuine Spencer 365 grain .516" bullet (which is light compared to the original 425 grain bullet).
I'm not hot rodding anything in 130-150 year old guns.
I'm sticking with powders that mirror the ignition timing and pressure curves of 2F black powder (Trail Boss is definitely out!).
Best of Luck!

-Tom

[Gunlaker]

I shoot almost exclusively BP in my single shots, but when I want to use smokeless in a .45-70 I use H-4198 loads from the Hodgdon's Trapdoor load data. They work very well in any of the rifles I've used them in. The only thing I do differently is to use a magnum primer. In cold weather I have experienced ignition troubles which the magnum primers solved. I've tried a bunch of powders and the only one I liked more for "original-style" loads was the now discontinued SR-4759.

Chris.

[oldred]

Anyone else use H4895 or Varget in these old BP calibers? They too leave some unburned residue but no worse than some of the others with the advantage that it will nearly fill the case even at low pressure loadings. I use both powders in both 45/70 and 45-90 cases and get good accuracy and a reasonably clean burn, case position does not seem to be an issue at all even in BP equivalent loads which still take up a lot of the empty case space that powders like 5744 wouldn't even come close to doing in the these big cases.

[rfd]

aa5744 is meant for 19th century large capacity cases. it is not location sensitive. it will almost always not burn all the powder granules. it is quite accurate and when sr4759 was discontinued, aa5744 became the smokeless powder of choice for the replica guns (NOT the old old guns, which require black powder).

FWIW, since aa5744 is double based, it is against the quigley match rules to employ fillers or wads as that practice is considered dangerous and has been attributed to at least a few blown rifles. in fact, no smokeless powder should be loaded that way in those old design cartridge cases.

245258

better yet, stop messing with smokeless powders for guns designed before the introduction of that white devil dust stuff. use real black powder, and not that substitute junk, either. there is no pressing concern for not loading up with real black powder. i was also a nay sayer for too long until i saw the black light of reason.

[oldred]

use real black powder, and not that substitute junk, either. there is no pressing concern for not loading up with real black powder. i was also a nay sayer for too long until i saw the black light of reason.

You forgot to add that real black is just way more fun too! :bigsmyl2:

Also those guys who shoot that phony stuff are cheating themselves because none of those "replics", "substitutes", or whatever they call them are even close to shooting the real thing! They all look, load, shoot and even smell different so in reality using any of them is just a different kind of shooting, neither black or smokeless so why bother?

[Larry Gibson]

Anyone else use H4895 or Varget in these old BP calibers? They too leave some unburned residue but no worse than some of the others with the advantage that it will nearly fill the case even at low pressure loadings. I use both powders in both 45/70 and 45-90 cases and get good accuracy and a reasonably clean burn, case position does not seem to be an issue at all even in BP equivalent loads which still take up a lot of the empty case space that powders like 5744 wouldn't even come close to doing in the these big cases.

I use H4895 with a dacron filler in my rifle 1873 and 1882 duplication 45-70 loads. As mentioned there is some residue but it's not been problematic. H4895 even with the dacron filler in carbine level loads doesn't generate enough psi for efficient burn so I don't use it in carbine level loads.

[40mm]

@larrygibson, your message box is full and I cannot send my message to you!
Cheers, 40mm

[tbx-4]

Correction:
In post #13 I stated I use 22gr of IMR4895...
That is incorrect, it should read 22gr of IMR4198.
I also use a 1-2 grain tuft of Dacron to keep powder against primer and have enlarged the flash hole slightly to get complete ignition. Rarely do I see unburned granules of powder shooting these loads in my carbine.

[oldred]

Correction:
In post #13 I stated I use 22gr of IMR4895...
That is incorrect, it should read 22gr of IMR4198.
I also use a 1-2 grain tuft of Dacron to keep powder against primer and have enlarged the flash hole slightly to get complete ignition. Rarely do I see unburned granules of powder shooting these loads in my carbine.


I thought something didn't sound right there since even 40 grs of H4895 (I realize you are talking about IMR powder) is still a light load (14,900 CUP according to Hodgdon) for a 405 gr 45/70. I shoot a lot of 4895 in both the 70 and 90 versions of that big ol case and 22 grs just sounded way too light.

I see you mention IMR4895 and I use H4895, there are some differences and the question comes up occasionally about the difference. I am aware of a couple of things that are supposed to be different between these two powders and was wondering about others' thoughts on it????