1873 38 WCF rifle

[bigted]

I have this old rifle in pretty good shape mechanically. Barrel is fair to good ... describe it as a healthy 6 or 7. Action closes up nice n tight and wood is sound. No deep pitting that bothers anything anywhere.

I have loaded 175 Lee TC's grease groove boolits over BP and love the gentle recoil and clouds of fire, sparks and smoke. These bottle neck cases keep the chamber/action really free of powder fouling and are a hoot to shoot.

BUT ...

I desire to shoot clean smokeless loads in it and remain in the safe range for shooter, bystanders AND rifle.

Pet loads? Concerns? Should I remain with straight BP loads? If 38 WCF smokeless loads for hunting are desired ... should I consider trading this old dandy into a fairly early model 92?

Thanks for the comments, thoughts and experience

[pworley1]

The lyman 401043 over about 10g of unique has safely dispatched untold deer from the '73.

[earlmck]

The lyman 401043 over about 10g of unique has safely dispatched untold deer from the '73.

That 10-grain load seems to me like it might be a little warm for the '73? My old Lyman #44 shows that load but for the m92. Says "don't use for guns built for black powder use". And QuickLoad thinks the 10 grain Unique load would run a bit over 20k psi.

I've been using 7.5 grains Unique with the Lee bullet in my old '73 and things seem fine with it, and QL thinks it is approximately black-powder pressure range around 13k psi.

[35 Whelen]

These are not the paper-mâché firearms that some would have you believe.

I currently have two 1873's in 38-40, both with 24" barrels, one an 1886 production, the other an 1888 production.

These are the two bullets I use.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/38-40%20bullets-3_zpsgnpwihbt.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/38-40%20bullets-3_zpsgnpwihbt.jpg.html)

On the left is the Lyman 40143. It's pretty much just been an "OK" bullet for me where accuracy is concerned. On the right is a bullet from an RCBS 40-180-FN. Mine drop at about 192 grs. from WW's. This bullet has been quite accurate for me-

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsgzg7jjnt.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsgzg7jjnt.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsz07tvqaw.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsz07tvqaw.jpg.html)

I bought some Big Lube 38-40 bullets (http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=ab4ea15a-a002-435f-a5a4-f9e9035a0082) and they shot quite well too-

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg.html)

My personal preference for smokeless powder is Unique, Power Pistol and Herco. Start with about 8.0 grs. of any of these and work your way up. 9.0 grs. of Unique or 9.5 grs. of Herco got me up in the 1350 fps range with the RCBS cast bullet.

If you really want power for hunting get some Swiss 3f Black Powder. A compressed charge (2.2 cc) of this powder gave over 1400 fps with great accuracy. If you use BP, make sure yo use a beeswax based lube and you'll probably have to clean the bore every 10 shots or so.

Good luck!

35W

[bigted]

Been eyeballin the 401-215B boolit mold from Tom at Accurate bullet molds. I would have Tom cut the second crimp groove deeper for a second grease groove instead of a two crimp boolit.

Anybody use this boolit? Should be a great deer boolit with the broad meplate and 215 grain weight. I would love to take deer with this old sweetheart.

Wonder what pressure 10 grains Unique would develop?

[35 Whelen]

Been eyeballin the 401-215B boolit mold from Tom at Accurate bullet molds. I would have Tom cut the second crimp groove deeper for a second grease groove instead of a two crimp boolit.

Anybody use this boolit? Should be a great deer boolit with the broad meplate and 215 grain weight. I would love to take deer with this old sweetheart.

Wonder what pressure 10 grains Unique would develop?

That's a nice mold and design. If it were me, I'd just have the middle driving band removed, then you have tons of space for lube.

I think that anything much over 200 grs. in the 38-40 is going to give diminishing returns. I shot this buck with the RCBS-cast bullet pictured above and it whistled all the way through.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg.html)

35W

[bigted]

Guess I was typing when you fella's were posting. I certainly do like this rifle and wonder about its history

[bigted]

35, how do you keep your boolits from thumping back into the case as neither one has a crimp groove?

[bigted]

Also what is your OAL of the loaded rounds?

[indian joe]

Guess I was typing when you fella's were posting. I certainly do like this rifle and wonder about its history

I would be wary of heavier boolits in an original - we have one (rebarreled now) - they are slow twist barrel, shoot the 180 grain pill nice but if you cut the load or go heavier boolit, stability was a problem - Wano blackpowder caught us out - sideways boolits at 50 yards - squeezed 2 more grains in = all good. (Wano would be proly 200fps slower than Swiss in this case).
others may have a different view, thats ok, just tellin what happened here.

[bigted]

Cool. Every bit of info is taken into consideration. Thanks Joe

[bigted]

Pictures if they come thru

244061

244062

244064

244065

244066

244067

There is my baby. Barrel is now 24 inch but has been cut down in its past, probably 28 inch or maybe it began life as a 30 inch sporting ... probably a 28 inch barrel tho as I believe the "sporting" models all had the pistol grip butt.

All in all it is all there and as mentioned ... pretty good shape all in all. The crescent butt plate is there but ... I am 6foot 5.5 inch tall with arms long as a good drink of water, hence the leather butt pad for the length. These have about 12.5 inch lop which is about 2 inch short for this longarmed galoot. She fits me pretty good now tho. The wood and metal are in pretty good shape as shown.

Shoots like a dream. By the way "35" how much black is 2.2 cc that it yields 1400 FPS ?

[Speedo66]

I've been using Missouri Bullets 180g round nose flat point boolits over 5g of Trail Boss in my 1889 '73 .38-40. The published powder company loads for this powder are 4.5g min. @7300 PSI and 5.5g max @9900 PSI. Case overall length is 1.6"

Very low recoil, can barely feel it go off. lol But fairly accurate even with its trash barrel.

[veeman]

Thats a nice looking rifle. How's come the front sight is on backwards? Oh, I see, it would stick out past the muzzle.

[bigted]

Yes, whomever shortened the barrel did the deed with the front dovetail being very close to the barrel muzzle.

Yesterday I removed the blade front and replaced it with a bead which looks betta up there. Also shoots better and my eye picks it up way faster.

I need to get another boolit mold tho as this Lee 175 does not carry enough lube even for Unique loads. Works well in the 40 S&W with a 5 inch barrel but not near nough for 25 inch.

Been eyeballin a couple accurate molds ... the 40-180E and the 40-185C. Both these look to carry plenty lube for the longer barrel.

[Speedo66]

These are the ones I use from Missouri Bullet Co., they have a crimp groove and are also available coated. They offer a discount to active or retired military or first responders and also members of The High Road, not sure if this site has it.

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=80

[35 Whelen]

35, how do you keep your boolits from thumping back into the case as neither one has a crimp groove?



Also what is your OAL of the loaded rounds?

With BP, the bullet cannot scope back in to the case. When I load with smokeless I use a firm roll crimp even though there's no cannelure. So long as I don't completely fill the magazine there's no problem.

The o.a.l. is somewhere around 1.59". Regarding the 2.2cc 3f load, it weighs somewhere around 33-35 grs.

An interesting loading method is duplex loads which consist of a couple of grains of something like Unique under a case full of BP. I'd have to check my load log to find exactly what I used. Anyhow, these loads don't necessarily offer a velocity advantage, but they greatly reduce BP fouling.

35W

[bigted]

Thanks 35, I have noticed that if I keep my rounds under 1.6 inch, they work thru my actions well.

I have loaded and fired 45-70 duplex loads of 4 or 5 grains IMR 4227 under 58 grains 2Fg GOEX ( pretty dirty fouling powder ) and with the duplex, I could shoot as long as I wanted to be battered by those 4 to 500 grain boolits over the 70 grain equivalent loads. Seems like pressure wise, I have read that using smokeless is 3 grains black for 1 smokeless. So I began lessening my BP by 3 to 1 for my duplex loads. Seem to be pretty close over the chronny to.

I have noticed that my 2.5 cc scoop weigh in at 39 or so + or - and this is what I load my 45 Colt rifle rounds with under the 454260 Accurate mold.

May need to try the duplex in the old 38 WCF. Sounds intriguing.

[bigted]

Gazing at my old Lyman load book and my late Ideal book ... both list 10 grains Unique under their 180 grain boolit. Wondering if the 73 rifle is stronger then the Colt SAA which was the test vehicle for those 10 grain loads.

I hesitated loading 9 grains Unique but I am rethinking this. With 175 or 180 grain boolits, I now wonder if that 9 grain load would work just fine in my rifle. Date of manufacture is 1883.

What think you?

[bigted]

So with black powder era 73's ... what kinda pressures were possible safely?

Mine is an 1883 year build and I shoot BP in it BUT ... I would like to feel comfortable using smokeless powder in the old sweety. She shoots like a dream