Belted 30-06 how to form ???

[beechbum444]

Question.... can a belt be formed reliably on a 30-06 case??? If so ... how??? Regards

[RustyReel]

Good question. I bought a .240 Weatherby and doing research on the case I learned that it has the standard 06 head size. I also read somewhere that Mr. Weatherby made the cases by swaging (sp?) the belt onto 30/06 brass and that cases can be made by doing this. I made a couple attempts at this and reached the point that either the brass was going to get stuck, or my press or bench or something else was going to break. Ended up buying factory brass.

So, I guess technically it can be done but you probably need form dies. Whatya need a belt for??

[beechbum444]

Tinkering with an idea about head spacing everyone freaks out about headspacing off the case mouth and I really don't get a direct answer about a min and max variation in relation to chamber pressure/ safety when the case mouth is used for head spacing ..... but the 50 Beowulf, 30 carbineand 400 AR all head space from it ..... good question

[beechbum444]

I did come across some info on 240 wthby ...

[garandsrus]

Here you go: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6001381/3

[elk hunter]

In "Cartridge Conversions" by George Nonte, there is a complete explanation of swaging belts on 30-06 cases including dimensions of the needed dies and a press made from a hydraulic jack. I've never needed to do this but apparently it is possible.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm kind of curious as to what you're wishing to accomplish. (?). The '06 traditionally headspaces off the shoulder, and that works on everything from a Win. Mod. 70 to an M1 Garand. Again, traditionally, semi-auto pistol cartridges headspace on the mouth (as most have no shoulder), so what is the project that you have in mind?

[15meter]

Tinkering with an idea about head spacing everyone freaks out about headspacing off the case mouth and I really don't get a direct answer about a min and max variation in relation to chamber pressure/ safety when the case mouth is used for head spacing ..... but the 50 Beowulf, 30 carbineand 400 AR all head space from it ..... good question

Are we talking apples and oranges here?

My understanding is that bottleneck cartridges headspace off a datum point half way up the shoulder, not on the case mouth as do straight walled, rimless cartridges.

And I have created belts on rifle brass in the past, only to cut them off in a subsequent operation when making 7.62x38r brass from 223 brass. Did it more to see if I could get them to work than actual need.

I made up some before I bought the revolver, I figured as oddball as that little Nagant is, at some time in the future, factory ammo/brass was going to be made out of unobtanium. I wanted a plan "B".

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Back in the 50's-60's there were a few wildcats that were formed from '06 with a swaged belt, how the 240 Weatherby came about. Belts on cases were not always bad, maybe even stylish long ago. Nonte's Cartridge Conversions, a magazine article or two(no internet), and maybe(?) an Ackley book covers the formed belts. In the early 60's , government '06 brass was 6 cents a pound, weighed from a 55 gal barrel at the surplus store(real US WW@ surplus). All kinds of stuff based on '06 back then.

[beechbum444]

I think I found what I was looking for with the 45 raptor , but I was tinkering with stufffing a heavy .410 caliber boooolit in a cut off 30-06 case , the 45 raptor does it with no belt or neck at 62,000 psi basically a 460 s and w with out a rim and hardly any taper. Thought a 41 caliber would be way to go . Then I was thinking about addding a rim to headspace

[beechbum444]

Somehow , we have overlooked .41 caliber boolits when going to longer cartridges with the 44 being .429 and 45 being .452 wondering if I could launch a .41 400 grainger at 1400 fps with out crazy chamber pressure

[centershot]

Sure you can! Just neck down a 45-70 to 41 caliber. All kinds of case capacity, no reason to go goobers with pressure!

[beechbum444]

I should have added with out a 4570 parent case ... 30-06 brasss is way cheaper

[seetrout]

I should have added with out a 4570 parent case ... 30-06 brasss is way cheaper

Not to rain on your parade, but I think wildcatting is going to end up costing more than an off the shelf solution.
.40-65 winchester. Brass is available from starline or can be made from .45-70.
Hodgdon lists many loads for it with a 400 LRNFP with starting loads at 1300fps and max at 1550 and 25k CUP. Bullet diameter is specified as .409"

[beechbum444]

You're not raining , that's what we do here , post ideas to get more ideas , somemight work some don't

[Krag1902]

I was looking at a rifle in a wildcat 6 mm that had as its parent case the 30-06. The belt on this 6 mm was swaged onto the body of the '06 case just where the solid section of the head begins. The case body was reduced a few thou ahead oF this belt. I REALLY DIDN'T SEE THE MERIT IN THE SYSTEM UNLESS SOME ONE JUST WANTED A TRICK BELT.

[RustyReel]

I was looking at a rifle in a wildcat 6 mm that had as its parent case the 30-06. The belt on this 6 mm was swaged onto the body of the '06 case just where the solid section of the head begins. The case body was reduced a few thou ahead oF this belt. I REALLY DIDN'T SEE THE MERIT IN THE SYSTEM UNLESS SOME ONE JUST WANTED A TRICK BELT.

Sounds EXACTLY like the 240 Weatherby!

[gwpercle]

Tinkering with an idea about head spacing everyone freaks out about headspacing off the case mouth and I really don't get a direct answer about a min and max variation in relation to chamber pressure/ safety when the case mouth is used for head spacing ..... but the 50 Beowulf, 30 carbineand 400 AR all head space from it ..... good question

CH4D might have an answer , they do sell swaging dies and equiptment .
Good luck
Gary

[cainttype]

Forming a belt on the 30-06, or any case with that diameter head, can be done without too much difficulty using the proper draw die and a heavy-duty press.
It makes a fine belted, straight-wall, 2” long, 41 diameter cartridge using 308 brass... Although it was most commonly used to form 240 Weatherby from 06 and 270 brass to save money.

[cainttype]

Belts are actually useful to control headspace on cartridges with minimally angled shoulders. The idea has lots of merit in the cases it was originally designed with in mind, like the 300 and 375 H&H. Both cartridges are slick-feeding because of the minimal shoulders, and the belt provides positive headspacing.
Move to cartridges with really large bores, but designed to feed from a modern staggered magazine bolt action rifle like the 458 Winchester Mag and 458 Lott and headspacing on the belt makes it possible... Those cases do not need a rim, so they act like any other rimless design from the box magazine.

Roy Weatherby did form 240 Weatherby from 30-06, but only from the desire to keep with his tradition of belts and rounded shoulders, it was sort of the Weatherby trademark.
Seeing 6MMs being a market success, he thought it would be quick and easy to use a standard .473” bolt face so that the 240 could work in already available rifles, and it did.
So Weatherby actually reduced the potential of a 6MM/30-06 Wildcat, but he got his trademark belt.

[cainttype]

244333

375x2” and 412x2”.... both are formed from 308 Winchester but could use 30-06, 270, or the more expensive 240 Weatherby to achieve the same basic results.

[country gent]

Im assuming your working on a deer round for states like Ohio that allow straight walled rifle cases....
I did a one of for a member here based on 300 in mag brass tapered down to 40 caliber at the overall allowed case length. No shoulder was left so the belt was headspace. It was an interesting looking round with a 400 grn bullet seated.

Instead of forming a belt on a given case. Start with a belted case and work from there to what you want. 300 win mag is plentiful fairly inexpensive as a parent case. you might be able to get the capacity and performance you want and fit in a short action even.

When working a wildcat up never overlook other avenues or forms of what your thinking. Here a parent belted case may save on expensive dies presses and time. The slightly bogger case dia and shorter powder column may give better efficiency and allow other options.

[15meter]

You're not raining , that's what we do here , post ideas to get more ideas , somemight work some don't

I like that attitude, "blue sky, what if" has gotten more new stuff invented then the continual nay-sayer's. Good thing there are only a couple of the bah, humbug types on here.

And Country Gent is right about 300 Win Mag being plentiful, I've got a bunch that I need to get posted on S&S along with a laundry list of other un-used space taker-uppers. Like several totes worth. If I ever get off my duff I could probably afford a new rifle[smilie=w:

[Texas by God]

Re: .240 Weatherby- silly proprietary version of the .24-06 IMO. If I had one it would be rebarreled to 25-06 soonest.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[beechbum444]

Funny , I was looking at the 300 wm today as a parent case , as far as all the 300 wm sitting around to post I the s and s , shoot me a pm , who knows , I like the 412 x 2 " , custom dies for the belt , I assume ? And it looks like you are a boat guy too ...

[cainttype]

The 412x2” is using 308 Winchester brass, drawn in a single pass using a belt forming die from CH4D, and expanded with a very long tapered expander a friend made for me.
270 and 30-06 brass could be used for a longer case, if wanted.

[beechbum444]

Even more interested ch4d for belt forming dies , 400 gr lead boooolit , where in the world do I start looking for load data and powder combos for this round ....

[cainttype]

I doubt you’ll see much load data for either the 375 or 412x2”, which is what I call them. They are wildcats that I’ve been playing with for years as a concept, although the idea has been in the minds of other tinkerers in one form or another (you could use the 30-06 case full length for a standard action rifle, for instance).
My intention is to use the short action Remington 700 for the donor rifle (it’s waiting on the barrel to be ordered now). The Rem 308s and 243s floating around should require no modifications other than possibly altering the forward lips of the mag feed rails.
Look at cases with similar/close diameter and length and make educated guesses, having computer software for estimating loads is never a bad thing here.

The 414 Supermag is 1.590”, so top loads should be a good starting point for the 2.00” case... The 375 Winchester is a little smaller diameter, but the length is similar and should provide another good starting point for the .412” version.
Cast loads for the 38-55 are plentiful, and since it is practically identical dimensionally to the 375 W it should also provide some useful starting points.

The idea with these cartridges was to use a case designed for the modern box magazines in bolt guns, with little/no modifications needed.
My final model of the 412 version can use non-custom dies (shortened) to load, and can be chambered without a custom reamer....’cause I’m cheap.
Hopefully, the gun will be up and running soon... I’m ordering a barrel after getting a few other projects finished.

[beechbum444]

Wow the 414 pistol round sounds like a good place to start , I've got a 38-55 piece of brass sitting on the shelf , I see it often and it didn't dawn on me . With the oal being close to that of a 762x 39 case blown out to .40 I looked at using it a a parent case too but then it comes sooo close to the 401 wsl

[beechbum444]

Non custom dies for the 414 x 2 , I'm curious ???? It seems everyone chases velocity but I can't see why no one remembers that a 400 gr lead boolit going 1300 + fps goes thru a 1,000 buffalo from bumper to bumper and has been for over a century

[cainttype]

One thing to remember is that drawing the case down to provide the belt reduces internal capacity, so the 412x2” I’m working toward will have less internal capacity than something like a .40 cal built with a standard 308 case... But it would be legal in areas requiring a straight-wall case if 2” long is acceptable.
The smaller capacity should be a more efficient cartridge for moderate velocities and, like you say, moderate velocity with a .412” bullet in 275-400 grain weights is a beast... Stopping a 275-300 grain “plinker” easing along at 1500 fps is no small feat.
The gun “should” be easily downloaded for chasing cans, or loaded up to be suitable for anything I’ll ever encounter.... A well-mannered “thumper”, in a lightweight carbine.

[cainttype]

The case “design” was pretty simply coincidental, to be honest.
First, the belt gave the opportunity to get positive headspace with a large diameter projectile, and being a fan of the 458x2” the belted case of the 240 Weatherby was perfect for a bullet in the 40-41 cal range....
Custom reamers and dies aren’t cheap, so after years of hemming around and putting the project aside while the donor rifle sat in a safe I realized that if I used the measurements of the forward 1.780” of the 405 Winchester I actually had a match for the case diameter of the 240 Weatherby above the belt, a total length of 2” (.220” from base to top of belt) and a bullet diameter of .412”.
Having a good selection of 41 cal molds didn’t hurt deciding, either.

So, after drawing the belt with the forming die, sizing the case above the belt can be done with a shortened 405 Winchester die. Seating is also done with a shortened 405 seater die.
Full sizing, belt included, can be done with a regular 240 Weatherby FL die, or even using the original draw die.
Chambering, another cost cut, is going to be possible by using a standard 405 Win reamer to cut the 2” MAX length, then the belt recess can be bored with the lathe... A new 405 reamer is half the cost of a new made-to-spec wildcat, and renting one is 1/3 of that...
I wanted to pursue the “cheap” route intentionally to see if it made sense... I think it does.

[dbosman]

Nonte also experimented with soldering on a ring cut from the appropriate internal diameter copper tubing. He cleaned up the result, on a lathe.

[beechbum444]

I was tinkering with 41 R.E.M. Mag dies a few days ago and also a fan of the 458x 2 cartridge then I came across the 45 raptor but it seems that making it from 308, 3006 270 brass etc is problematic ... but for the past 8 months I've been chasing exactly what u discovered ... even the 400 whelen and 411 hawk but I also wanted to shoot cast boolits so the case either needed a belt or a rim ... hence my question in the start of this conversation . I'd really like to keep the .473 rim diameter and use a 35 R.E.M. Bolt .460 that I have for a 336 marlin if I could keep pressure under 40,000 psi even at 60,000 it could possible be stuffed into a ar 10 platform but I'm a lever gun fan, yes the 444 marlin and 4570 are great but there's some calling me toward a 411-412 wild cat . You are correct about the molds ... can't believe I over looked the 405 win that case is literally sitting next to my 38/55 round and 444 rounds .... if larger boolits would have beeen around when marlin came out with the 444 , it would have been the 414 marlin .....

[cainttype]

Raptor brass is available at Starline, but free cases are always nice.... and “cheap”, if you don’t don’t worry about the time needed to make them.
I expect the 412x2” to be pure fun, with a serious “thump potential” if desired. It will never be a match for the 444 Marlin, but it was never intended to be.
If the rifle/cartridge combo is half what I expect it to be it will move way up near top of the “Fun Gun” list here.

I expect the cartridge to be small enough to play with economically, yet big enough to take on serious field work if wanted... And should be a caster’s delight.
The carbine bolt-action I’m planning to end up with has attributes I’ve always wanted, but never found.... Hopefully, I’ve done my homework as well as I think I have... Time will tell.

[beechbum444]

The 444 marlin is great but I think you are thinking what I'm thinking, I'm not chasing a240 grain boolits at 2100 for , I'm looking for a 300 - 400 grainer going 1300 -1500 .... I was just looking at 405 win in the book ... case design , taper is right but I can't wrap my head around the 2.0 case length and keeping a pressure below 50,000 psi . A 30-06 case and 405 win case are sooooo close 2.5 ish without going into decimals on both sides .... 2.0 case length .... don't get me wrong ...I want it toooo... as we shorten the case we shorten the distance between bottom of boolits and top of powder charge and in theory increase pressure ....from outside window seems 30-06 blown out would be a rim less 405 win ..... when can I get a barrel with savage threads ????

[beechbum444]

A rimless 405 win , why didnt they do this when chasing the 400 whelen ....

[cainttype]

The idea is not to keep the capacity or length of the ‘06 or 405W, but rather to have a case suitable for short actions with less case capacity... A milder round that would run moderate velocities more efficiently with less powder, using medium-large diameter bullets with better sectional density than similar weights in 44 or 458 options.
Think 458x2”, miniaturized.

My intention is to mainly run 250-300 grain bullets in the mid-teens for plinking, higher-teens for “Thump”.
.412” bullets in that range are sledgehammers that don’t beed a lot of velocity, and recoil should be easily managed loaded down for plinking at cans all day.

[beechbum444]

Barrels... it seeems anything that will handle a .412 boolit is non existent ... the .400 .45 .... etc are common ..... where to look .... it would be a 414 super mag on massive steroids

[cainttype]

Actually, most barrel manufacturers offer .412” barrels since the 405 Winchester has returned (mostly due to CAS demand). Douglas, Shilen, and PacNor all offer threaded and contoured barrels for common bolt actions, and .412” is one of their options.
I doubt many .412” are ordered for bolts, but I’ll be ordering one non-chambered when work and other projects are a little less hectic.

For any specialty oddballs there’s always rebore options. A good rebore can offer practically any diameter (with a barrel having sufficient OD), twist rate, number and depth of grooves to suit any need. Many are capable of chambering most common wildcats, like 375-308 or 400 Whelen.

[beechbum444]

Trying to figure out your reamer .... a short 405 win .... but the 412 x 2 has a belt on it ????

[15meter]

Funny , I was looking at the 300 wm today as a parent case , as far as all the 300 wm sitting around to post I the s and s , shoot me a pm , who knows , I like the 412 x 2 " , custom dies for the belt , I assume ? And it looks like you are a boat guy too ...

Been busy with a new to me RCBS A3, may get to look in the pile tomorrow, and yes I'm a boat guy. Not putting in the softwater boat this year, too much drama/silliness going on. Normally my life is as about drama free as you can get, it's getting shoved in my direction, even though I am doing my best to stay
out of it.

Avatar is the real boating I do, softwater stuff is just killing time until the ice comes back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9VEM4KdgSY

[cainttype]

To avoid needing a custom reamer, the 412x2” can use a 405 Winchester reamer to cut the chamber length... 2”.
After the two inch length is reached, a boring bar can cut the belt’s recess to a depth of .220” from the bolt face.

If you look at cartridge drawings, get the 240 Weatherby and you’ll see the belt’s dimensions... Now look at the 405 and add the forward 1.780” to that belt drawing to get the 2” total.
That’s why a shortened set of 405 Winchester can seat the bullet and size to the top of the belt.

Full length sizing should be easy using a standard 240 Weatherby FL die, whose shoulder begins past the 2” length, but the shortened 405 W seater die is still the easy choice for a bullet seater die.
The NOE expanders will round out the loading necessities.

[beechbum444]

Are the 240 weatherby dies sufficient to form the belt it is a special belt forming die needed

[cainttype]

A special belt-forming draw die is needed to form a clean, sharp-edged belt.
Once-fired commercial brass has been better than unfired new brass, and has proven to need nothing more than expanding the neck to meet the dimensional requirements. Some mil-surp necks are thicker so, depending on the chamber’s final exact measurements, they might need reaming... The commercial brass has been spot on.
Expanding could be done on a series of small steps to larger diameters, but I have a looooooong expander a friend made for me that goes from .308” to .408” in a single pass... So far, I’ve not annealed any necks and the splitting rate has been about 5%, so not too bad.

[cainttype]

A really stout press is needed to draw the belt. I use an RCBS A2 as a preference.
The draw die uses an ejector rod that is hammered from the top to push the new case out after fully forming the belt...Good lube, and plenty of it, is a necessity.
Standard shellholders are not used. The set-up uses a pusher-type adaptor to drive the case into the die, then the ejector rod is inserted through the top to drive the case out with a hammer, or small maul.

[BAGTIC]

Reducing the thickness of the case base so the brass can be used to create a belt reduces the potential case strength at the location where it is most critical, all for the sake of fashion.

[cainttype]

Reducing the thickness of the case base so the brass can be used to create a belt reduces the potential case strength at the location where it is most critical, all for the sake of fashion.

That’s incorrect.
Case walls at the reduced area are actually thicker than original. Nothing is removed, and walls get thicker as the diameter is reduced using a draw die.
The belt is used as a positive headspace when using bullet diameters that are too large for simply necking up. It also creates “straight-wall legal” cases where bottle-necks are banned.
Having a large bore “cast bullet-friendly” chamber in a modern short-action bolt action carbine, using a very efficient case capacity for cost effective fun is a hard thing to find... Try locating a .400”+ diameter cartridge, with less powder capacity than a 308 Winchester for efficiency, designed to work in a standard “short action” bolt action rifle... a short-to-medium range thumper that is cheap to reload... Good luck with that.
Lastly, by using a belt you can chamber a modern box magazine rifle (like a Remington 700) to work without bolt modifications. The belted .412x2” works in a standard action from a donor rifle originally chambered 308 Winchester, 243, etc...

[AllanD]

RCBS and others used to make a case forming die to create a "belt" on a 30-06 case, as part of a set to convert 30-06 cases to 240 Weatherby Magnum.

I once held that particular die set in my hand and I'm still annoyed that I didn't take it home!

It was on the shelf of Ray's Sport Shop in Plainfield, NJ, but as they've been out of business for a decade...
(Since the death of Ray, I presume)

[MostlyLeverGuns]

A rimless 444, shorten to whatever length you need/want can be made from 30-06, 8x57, 308 depending. The rimless 444 headspaces on the case mouth. The rimless 444 was built for military Mauser conversions. There are many 300 grain bullets that work well, with 325, 350 and heavier available. I think RanchDog worked on a 350 for the 44. If you just want SOMETHING DIFFERENT, that is fine but it is quibbling to believe there is a significant difference is killing or penetration between 412 and 432 bullets of the same weight and construction. Shoot enough stuff and you will find that there is no magic to ANY caliber. Proper placement of a 'PROPER' bullet is the key. If just doing something different, again that is fine but don't justify on false premise, just build it because you want it.

[cainttype]

The 45 Raptor, 450 Bushmaster, and new 350 Legend all headspace on the mouth, too.
The 450 Marlin is a standardized version of Nonte’s 458x2” American with an exaggerated belt, technically both headspace on the belt.

The OP was referring to belts being drawn on 30-06 cases, basically forming a 240 Weatherby head...From that point, you’re almost restricted to bullet diameters less than .429”, which would leave a pretty thin neck wall even if there was zero taper above the belt... .412” is a natural maximum diameter to keep neck walls at roughly .015” and headspacing on the belt.

If interest was in anything .375” or less, the standard 308 case would be the best option unless you needed a “straight wall”, or wanted to slightly reduce case capacity.

[rcslotcar]

I was looking at my stash of brass and found two box's of nos "Remington umc 300 magnum". This is not 300 Winchester magnum brass. I believe it is from the 50's-60's. The head stamp is "REM-UMC 300 MAGNUM". This brass looks like a 30-06 belted magnum. It has a slow taper shoulder. I have no idea when or where I got these shell from. Doing research has proven to only find one picture on the internet nothing else. https://www.oldammo.com/300AMU2.jpg Ah picture worked!!

[cainttype]

I was looking at my stash of brass and found two box's of nos "Remington umc 300 magnum". This is not 300 Winchester magnum brass. I believe it is from the 50's-60's. The head stamp is "REM-UMC 300 MAGNUM". This brass looks like a 30-06 belted magnum. It has a slow taper shoulder. I have no idea when or where I got these shell from.

I believe you have Rem-UMC manufactured “300 H&H Magnum” brass... It predates the 300 Win Mag by half a century and most belted magnums introduced until about 1990 use it’s .532” rim/belt diameter.
The 30-06 is actually quite a bit smaller, with a rim diameter .473”.

[rcslotcar]

^^^ I do believe you are right , Thanks!!

[cainttype]

It seems odd today, but for a long time there was only one “300 Magnum”, the H&H.
Introduced in the mid-twenties (it wasn’t until the early-mid sixties that Winchester introduced the 300 Win Mag based on the same case), it was pretty much legendary.

I’d guess that your cases were made before the other 30 Mags arrived, in a time when “300 Mag” wasn’t used in a dozen varieties, so there wasn’t a need to specify “H&H”... somewhere between 1925-1963.

[robbyPGP2014]

Did P.O. Ackley do something like this?