First experience with Swiss

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

At the rendezvous ( Santa Fe Trail Rendezvous ) one of my lube dealers showed up with a tent full of muzzleloader supplies and what did he have with him? Swiss of course! He had single 1lb cans and then pulled out a kilo ( 2.2lbs ) of 3fg swiss for $42! I ended up buying 2 of them.

I got excellent accuracy, even during the booshway shoot, until I hit 173 yards and the ol fifty ran outta steam :lol:

It's no where near as clean as folks claim. With a greased patch, 4 shots and she was getting real sticky down near the breech. My buddies great plains rifle experienced the same fouling as well, so we switched to a tester bottle of Buckskinners patch lube ( water based ) I had on hand. After that, loading was not an issue.

Very pleased with the powder and especially the price. I'll shoot it mostly for hunting, but do plan to run it over the chronograph.

Yesterday I went out to my new 100 yard bench and sat down with my Traditions St.Louis Hawken.

Accuracy was horrible! Im talking a 17" target and that sucker was all over the place.

Then I remembered that it was doing this at rendezvous on a trail walk when targets were only 20 - 30 yards away and missing by a foot.

I went and bought the swiss and changed out the knight red hot to a tresco nipple. Everything was fine. I figured the Pyrodex P I was shooting at the time, was bad.

It's the friggin knight red hot nipple that was the cause of the piss poor accuracy!

I changed it out on the range today and shot a 4" group right off the bat.

70gr 3fg swiss is pretty hot and shredding my .020" patches, so I changed targets and dropped the charge down to 60gr 3fg swiss.

100 yard results. The bullseye is 3" diameter just to give you an idea on group size.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f50/18/40/56/85/img_0511.jpg

Next time out I will set up an orange bullseye on brown paper, so its a little easier to see. I have a german silver front sight and that white back ground made for some real iffy aimining.

[TheOutlawKid]

Thats a pretty good price for a kilo. Have you ever tried old eynsford? If so...how do you feel it compares? Also why do you think the red hot nipple gave you bad accuracy? Was it worn out etc?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Yes I shot OE before it even hit the market. Much cleaner burning and never had an issue with sticky fouling down at the breech.

The red hot nipple was brand new. Im not sure what they did on this one, but even with my normal pyrodex p load, accuracy was horrid. This brand of nipple has always been my go to nipple for accuracy and consistent ignition, but it seems like the one I bought was a bad egg. I plan on ordering another 1 or 2 and recheck accuracy and see whats going on.

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr.frontiermuzzleloading, did you mean the OE was much cleaner burning and doesnt leave sticky fouling than swiss...or that swiss is cleaner and doesnt leave sticky fouling as u experienced with OE? Sorry i read into things and sometimes confuse myself . Haha. I make my own bp, but if i buy any then i buy OE and ive only tried swiss a few times but long ago before i really got into bp and dont recall much as far as comparing it goes. Although i really like OE as its clean burning and ive never had stickyness...although i have had sticky fouling from pyrodex.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

That is correct. OE shot much cleaner and didnt leave behind the sticky fouling at the breech. Even goex shoots cleaner in my rifles. I may try a musket cap with swiss and see if that helps tame the crud at the breech. The seller said he has the same issue with swiss in all his rifles, yet his wifes 45 shoots is without issue. Go figure.

[TheOutlawKid]

Hmm yeah that is very strange. You would think swiss was cleaner or as clean etc. I guess changing the primer would be the logical next step in solving the issue.

[wapiti22]

I shoot Swiss in my TC 54 Hawken with Maxi-balls and it does quite well. Little stronger kick than Goex.

[heelerau]

We pay $130 a kilo down under for black powder, so well done !!

[TheOutlawKid]

$130 american or Aussie bux? I make mine because i even think about $20 for OE is a bit much...so $130 for a little over 2 pounds is rediculous

[indian joe]

$130 american or Aussie bux? I make mine because i even think about $20 for OE is a bit much...so $130 for a little over 2 pounds is rediculous

All this makes an ole skeptic like me wonder whether all the hype about Swiss was mostly ..............hype????
Still shootin goex 5FA that i hoarded twenty odd years ago cuz I suspected this might happen

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I think the hype comes from cartridge shooters.

[indian joe]

I think the hype comes from cartridge shooters.

yeah Im one of those too --- if yr in Europe and the choice is Wano or Swiss then I guess its (Swiss) a no brainer at the prices they see.

[TheOutlawKid]

Indian_joe...what variety of brands are available for black powder and subs in Australia? Harder to come by or easily available?

[indian joe]

Indian_joe...what variety of brands are available for black powder and subs in Australia? Harder to come by or easily available?

wano LGS $130/kg,wano other LGS $120/kg,wano $80something/kg if ya drive to Sydney to pick it up, Swiss was around a year or so ago at about 50% markup over wano - have not seen or heard of it recent - if you had the connections and wanted it Chinee fireworks powder (or whatever the commercial pyro guys are using) might be possible at about half wano price (maybe) - that was the fallback position last time there was a supply glitch.

Subs --- no interest -- see some blokes with pyrodex still

Availability ?? yeah plenty Wano around (by our standards)

[arcticap]

I think the hype comes from cartridge shooters.

I think the hype comes from the international competition shooters who compete in the MLAIC world championship matches.

[GregLaROCHE]

I haven’t tried it yet. I’m in Europe and the price seems to be coming more in line with other European powders. Maybe they are lowering their price or the others are raising theirs. None the less the best shooters prefer it!

[indian joe]

I haven’t tried it yet. I’m in Europe and the price seems to be coming more in line with other European powders. Maybe they are lowering their price or the others are raising theirs.

None the less the best shooters prefer it!

yeah they do - but theres a bit of a psychology among a lot of those fellers that says "if I spend more money I will shoot a better score " sometimes works - sometimes no

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

It must have been the super hot water that I used to clean the rifle the last time. Now shes shooting consistent and without having a major issue with crud in the breech area.

5 shots late this evening from 50 yards. No, its not what I would normally settle for, BUT, shes on target and did not even have to swab the bore this time around.

I'll flush again with hot water, flush multiple times and hopefully she'll be ready for 100 yards in the next couple of days.

Im only hunting a buck this year and 75 yards would be a long shot in the area, but I still like to shoot for the tiniest group possible to help eliminate errors in the field.
https://i.postimg.cc/vTQncYdV/100-0258.jpg (https://postimg.cc/LYb5WM59)

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr.Frontiermuzzleloading...i have seen your rifle on THR forum...i love the look of its brasswork and the stain. I know you did the brasswork yourself...but What make and model is the rifle?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

its a traditions st louis hawken.

[pietro]

.

Anybody who switches from a BP like Goex, to the hotter burning Swiss, is well advised to reduce their charge(s) by 10% to avoid issues.


.

[megasupermagnum]

Not to be argumentative, but is there any actual proof that equal volumes of powder of Swiss produces more pressure than Goex besides a boost in velocity?

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr.megasupermagnum, you have a point. I dont think the pressures are anymore higher to the point that you have to take precautions. Its still pure black powder...its not a sub. You only really have to reduce your loads if your still wanting to get the same speed/velocities as you would with "weaker" powders such as Goex original, wano, KIK, etc. Swiss is just using better charcoal and pays more attention to detail in their manufacturing such as making sure the grains are matching in size and not so many "fines", polishing the grains a bit etc.

[indian joe]

Mr.megasupermagnum, you have a point. I dont think the pressures are anymore higher to the point that you have to take precautions. Its still pure black powder...its not a sub. You only really have to reduce your loads if your still wanting to get the same speed/velocities as you would with "weaker" powders such as Goex original, wano, KIK, etc. Swiss is just using better charcoal and pays more attention to detail in their manufacturing such as making sure the grains are matching in size and not so many "fines", polishing the grains a bit etc.

I believe it was Sam Fadalas book - tests of Curtiss and Harveys powder against GoEx same velocity achieved but heavier charges of the C&H to get it - lower measures pressure though - long time ago maybe I am dreaming ?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

This is the best group I was able to get at 50 yards with the 3fg swiss.
244337

I tried from 100 yards and the accuracy was just to poor for that distance. A couple days later I took out some old 2fg gearhart owen powder, 80gr volume and put 3 shots well under 2" at 100 yards! That help settle my nerves! I thought my rifle was going belly up LOL. All the covered holes are from swiss 3fg at 100 yards. Terrible!

So when it comes hunting season, the gearhart owen will be the winner.
244338

[bigted]

This is wild! First time to hear of Swiss being poorer in foul and accuracy! Never never never heard even a hint of this before.

I use Ol E now exclusively from regular GOEX. Ol E is superlative powder to the GOEX in power, cleanliness and consistency.

I have never used Swiss so have no dog in that fight ... however ... as stated above, this is the absolute first time hearing about Swiss being "dirty" powder ... and NEVER heard of it being second rate to GOEX! Wonder if it is a bad batch ... or ... if it is contaminated ... or ... if Swiss has changed their powder recipe.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Swiss emailed back. I find it hard to believe that 3 different brands of guns hate swiss powder? Especially when they all shoot different projectiles. There's no way I would be able to hunt big game with the charges listed below.

"Good Morning,

I shoot that same lot with a .45 caliber and I don’t have any issues with grouping. It just could be that your rifle doesn’t like that powder. I do have a rifle that doesn’t like Swiss powder at all. I have one, that will only shoot Swiss and I have one that will shoot anything I put down the barrel. Rifles are just like people I have figured out.

When shooting this Swiss with my .45 caliber, at 25 yds I am shooting about 20 grains, 50 yds, it’s 30 grains, and 100 it’s 40 grains. My grouping off a bench is about 1.2-1.5”, at 100 yds. Off hand, I get about a 3” group (I am not very steady) But I can shoot pretty tight groups closer in off-hand. My last time out I shot a group off hand under .75” with the same lot of powder that you are having issues with."

I guess if I want real accuracy, I'd have to shoot some real wimpy loads and have my ball bounce off deer :D :D