What you......

[RMulhern]

don't want if you're shooting paper patch ammo! This is the "dreaded paper ring" that is sheared off the base of the bullet where it folds over the base of the bullet. Caused from not having a PP chamber but.....here's the good news: You can eliminate this problem by ordering you some cases from Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. up in Cody, Wyoming made to fit your existing chamber dimensions. If the case is TOO SHORT...the **** end of the bullet gets SWAGED UP at powder ignition and then gets SQUEEZED DOWN (swaged) as it enters the bore and when it starts into the bore.....this paper ring is formed as it's cut off the rear of the bullet! This is stuff I've learned from the Rdnck, Orville, and Powderburner! If you look closely....the 'white ring' you see around the mouth of the case isn't a light reflection; it's a paper ring that's hung in the mouth! Also...having your cases the RIGHT LENGTH WILL NOT necessarily cure the problem because if your chamber is TOO LARGE for the cases you're using.....the **** end of the bullet will still be blown outward and swaged down when it enters the bore! Having the RIGHT CASES designed for your standard chamber is a MUST!!

Thanks guys! My RMC cases are ordered!

[martinibelgian]

Shooting groove-dia. PP bullets also cures the issue - as well as shooting tapered bullets.

[RMulhern]

Shooting groove-dia. PP bullets also cures the issue - as well as shooting tapered bullets.

You're gonna have to 'splain' that a bit because if the cases are TOO SHORT and the standard chamber is cut....the ****-end of the bullet is still going to be blown out oversize and then it will be SWAGED DOWN as it enters the bore! Same thing as far as I can see....for tapered bullets!:roll::roll:

[montana_charlie]

FPM & Martini,
When you guys continue this conversation, do it in a way so neither of you gets mad and goes away in a huff.
You are about to discuss the very thing I have been trying to learn about for four months, but all of the other conversations went haywire.

I promise to stay out of your way...and not ask questions till the end.
CM

[Bullshop]

There is another way to eliminate the ring. In my own experiance this is likely the most accurate way to shoot a boolit, patched or otherwise. It wont even matter if your brass is too short for your chamber.
Are ya with me yet? Comon think about it, its all be done before.
Yup thats it, breach seating. Breach seat the boolit fully into the barrel ahead of the case and it is fully supported before the shot is fired. The base cant expand beyond the groove depth.
Yes you can load some mighty accurate fixed ammo with grooved or patched boolits, but the most consistantly accurate shooting I have ever done has been by breach seating the boolit, indexing the same case to the chamber for all shots in the group and indexing the boolit to the chamber. I dont think its possible to be more consistant than that. Give it a go and see for yourself.
BIC/BS

[RMulhern]

BullShop

Yep....breech-seating works fine.....IF you have time but in a hunting scenario.....NOT TO SPORTY!! And if you're shooting PP ammo in a match....TIME is a limiting factor! So in my opinion....if one is wanting to use a STANDARD CHAMBERED rifle for both worlds; GG and PP.....the best option is to have custom cases made to fit the chamber for shooting the PP.

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index.html

[powderburnerr]

there are a couple other things that cause those , one of them is quick high pressure and can be remidied by using a larger granulation of powder , you still get the bump up it just arrives slower, after the bullet is in the bore .and alloy temper may play a small part in it as well .
by the way ,I have been using std chambers and brass ... and find starline to work better with pp than Norma ,, this is in my guns with my loads .I think the thinner necked starline brass , it is drawn from 2.6 , has some merit for this application ,, that said I really like Norma brass and use a lot of it ,, just havent had near the luck with it as with the Starline with pp,, The RMC thick wall is the best for this application , however the others do work ... this is the 2&7/8 case 45 I am talking about....Dean
.

[RMulhern]

FPM & Martini,
When you guys continue this conversation, do it in a way so neither of you gets mad and goes away in a huff.
You are about to discuss the very thing I have been trying to learn about for four months, but all of the other conversations went haywire.

I promise to stay out of your way...and not ask questions till the end.
CM

CM

Mad??[smilie=1: Hellsfire Charlie....the only folks I'm MAD AT.....is the ENTIRE US CONGRESS and OBAMA for lying through their teeth!!:twisted::???:

[RMulhern]

Dean

I'm using the slowest thing I can get:-D:-D granulation-wise; Goex 1F and also using a PPW along with it! Course it's the Goex Express so that's a little 'swufter' than the old Goex 1F. Dave is sending me cases that are 0.0165" so I'm anxious to see if these will work! I think Orville has some this size and Dave told me his are working OK!

Any thoughts??:roll::roll:

[powderburnerr]

them cases will do just fine , and you might find it interesting to try some reg 1F for S&G s .
I dont know if you need or want a certain velocity . but I went with a load that is real efficient and clean burning , I shot a match this weekend and didnt touch the barrel all match , most of 60 rounds , my last target was one of the best and it was most of 800 yds ,and cleanup was with 2 patches. . every relay just 3 breaths down the tube and drop in another. there is no change in impact this way from one relay to the next. it does however take three rounds to settle in .this has been my standard load to measure against for 3 years and I keep going to it because it works , . I cannot seem to improve on it without messing it up some other way,,. .......Dean
I got an order in for more RMC brass maybe with your order it will be enough to get them going.

[Buckshot]

................A word about the brass. I have had experience with "Turned from solid" brass, from the Red Willow Armoury, and know of many others with the same experience with other turned brass, from NDFS in Great Britain. I don't know how long Rocky Mountain Cartridge has been making these cases, or what success they've had to date. Shame on me for being doubtfull as they very well could have turned the corner on the process.

Without a doubt, the TFS brass I have looks like jewelery and is exceedingly uniform in all respects, including the drill flash holes. However, in order for TFS brass to live (speaking from my experience, and reading of others) it almost ALWAYS has to be annealed after each shot. Is this no longer the situation? Conjecture had it that turning from rolled barstock severed the grain structure. Not being a metalurgist I don't know the terms to use, but it alters the metal's ability to expand and contract as a drawn cartridge case can.

In drawing a case a rolled sheet is started with and a coin is blanked out. The grain is severed on the circumfrence only. It is then cupped, and then punched into succeeding dies with less clearance between the punch and die, to cause it to extrude into a longer shape. In the process it gets a couple annealings. The grain structure in the original punched out coin is still basicly intact, but it's direction of flow has been altered only in length and thickness, as it's drawn longer.

In any event,some of my 20 round lots of drawn Bertram 577-450 brass has over 30 firings each. In defence of their comparatively astronomical cost, I was annealing every 3rd firing even after vastly reducing the amount of neck sizing they were seeing. I got brave, but still with an eye on their expense (and now their age and experience) I anneal after the 4th firing.

On the other hand the TFS brass from The Red Willow Armory would crack in the neck is not annealed after EVeRY firing, before sizing. Ditto the TFS brass people bought from NDFS.

Is this no longer a problem?

..................Buckshot

[RMulhern]

Buckshot

Actually it makes not one whit of difference to me.....as I anneal after each firing anyway! But....I don't think this is a problem as others I know of have used this brass from RMC with great results. Dave Casey uses the latest CNC equipment and he isn't any 'newbie' in doing what he does. As for the quality....I've had his standard brass on one occasion and it was RIGHT ON for quality and dimension.:drinks:[smilie=1:

[powderburnerr]

Buckshot , these cases we are talking about are considered everlasting cases and as such do not move when fired , they fit the chamber on the outside and the bullet on the inside and there is just enough movement in them to prevent them from sticking on extraction and to allow them to seal at the neck. .they are totally different than standard brass. I have 10 firings on my cases so far and they still drop in and fall out after firing and there is no soot or fouling at the case mouth.. I will see how long they go before I have to do anything to them .but at this point they look very promising.I realise 10 firings is not much of a test but it is all i have at this time...Dean

[martinibelgian]

FPMIII,

Important here is following:
Use a HARD alloy - I use 16:1 in my 45-70, WW brass (thinnest there is). This will somewhat delay bullet upset, maybe enough to avoid that paper ring.
Use a slow-burning powder (for 45-70 1 1/2 FG)

You already have no. 2 covered - but what alloy are you using? In the big stompers, 20:1 is too soft (ask me how I know...) I'll guarantee you I haven't had any paper rings with my ammo. And I use fireformed brass, unsized, the bullet is a pretty 'casual' fit in the case - meaning my chamber is pretty loose, and the bullet will fall out when turned upside down. Bottom line, it works.

Of course, bullets patched to bore dia. is another thing entirely - I don't use them, but then again, I don't feel the need for them... I use either tapered , or groove-diameter PP bullets. Maybe I'm just different.

[RMulhern]

MIB

I use nothing but 16-1 in basically all my loadings of PP and Goex 1F powder which is about as SLOW as one can use....granular size-wise! The clue here as to possibly WHY you may not be getting the 'ring'.....is because you're not resizing whereas I am. I don't want loose fitting cartridges in hunting ammo but...with that being said...I don't like loose fitting ammo in tgt ammo either so that gets resized FL also. I run the hunting ammo through a crimp die and am reducing the OD of the case by .0015"...no more than that which lets the bullet turn in the case but it won't fall out if inverted. I DO NOT crimp my tgt ammo which has the same components and procedures applied.....minus the crimp application. But the tgt ammo is still delivering the 'ring' so as far as I'm concerned....my reasons for having the paper ring with MY RIFLE is that of improper case to chamber dimension and I'll solve that with the RMC brass! I've shot both Starline and Norma brass and the situation is the same!

See ya! Thanks for the feedback!


Here:drinks:have one....on me!!:mrgreen:




FPMIII,

Important here is following:
Use a HARD alloy - I use 16:1 in my 45-70, WW brass (thinnest there is). This will somewhat delay bullet upset, maybe enough to avoid that paper ring.
Use a slow-burning powder (for 45-70 1 1/2 FG)

You already have no. 2 covered - but what alloy are you using? In the big stompers, 20:1 is too soft (ask me how I know...) I'll guarantee you I haven't had any paper rings with my ammo. And I use fireformed brass, unsized, the bullet is a pretty 'casual' fit in the case - meaning my chamber is pretty loose, and the bullet will fall out when turned upside down. Bottom line, it works.

Of course, bullets patched to bore dia. is another thing entirely - I don't use them, but then again, I don't feel the need for them... I use either tapered , or groove-diameter PP bullets. Maybe I'm just different.

[powderburnerr]

Martin , your statement isnt totally true , I shoot a 2 & 7/8 case and use pure lead , I find that the softer the alloy the better it shoots and seals in my rifles ,, but then I only shoot under bore size bullets and never have paper rings either.......I taper crimp a fireformed case with a short taper crimp die it snugs the case to bullet better than the long dies ,I also shoot dirty and use three breaths almost exclusively either down the muzzle if shooting off hand or three up the back if setting.my bullet is all in the bore except 2 tenths...........Dean

[RMulhern]

powderburner

As you have probably read here on my previous postings......I give credit to what I've learned about PP to you, Oriville, and the Rdnck so with that being said if you see anything here that I'm in error on.....'kick me in the ****' and let me know about anything I post that might be in error!

In reference to shooting 'pure lead' or lets say 50-1 alloy......is there any validity to what we probably have all read by some in reference to NOSE SLUMPING?? Commonsense dictates that the softer one gets with the alloy that the likely-hood of this happening would be more pronounced but since I'm just a 'dummy'....maybe you could clear this up for me!

Adios....till next time!:drinks::castmine:

[powderburnerr]

Rick you are not doing anything wrong , just different than me is all .

re shootin pure lead , if you let the bullet tell you how fast it wants to be shot it wont slump
if you ask more than the design will take then a problem arises,
yes I have shot the lead bullets past where they are functional , and as soon as I slowed them down to where they wanted to be shot they got very accurate.
just different ways to skin a cat.
hard alloys,soft alloys , tapered bullets ,straight sided bullets groove size , bore size ,, , slow fast they all shoot , just set the parameters and adjust the load and component to make it work for you...Dean

[montana_charlie]

Martin , your statement isnt totally true ,
In defense of Martini's use of 16-1 to delay bump-up...
You admit that your bullet "is all in the bore except 2 tenths". His is patched to groove, so it can't be inserted that deeply.

Your 'soft' bullet can bump as fast as it wants, because it can't get any bigger than the bore it is sitting in.
Martini's 'hard' one is sitting back in the case and throat opening, so a delay in bump-up allows it to get up in the bore (like yours) before the change happens.

I wouldn't say to Martini, "Your statement isn't totally true." I would say (instead), "Your statement may be totally true when patched to groove diameter...but patched to bore bullets can be softer."
CM

[powderburnerr]

Charlie ,
that could almost be the case but my 50 says differently .I think the real true statement is the one above saying all shoot , it is just a matter of personal preference in which one, and how YOU want to shoot. there is no right way to, there are a lot of different ways to do it..... dean

[Bullshop]

I have to question the harder alloy delaying obturation idea. I remember reading of a test (cant remember where) done with a revolver in which the barrel had been removed.
Firing alloy boolits with light loads and fired into a box of rags or something to catch the boolit it showed a fully flaired base. I think that obturation is taking place before the entire boolit is in motion. I say the entire boolit because the base is in motion before the nose compressing the boolit which is what causes obturation.
At least in my limited capacity to understand that the way I get it.
BIC/BS

[montana_charlie]

Charlie ,
that could almost be the case but my 50 says differently .
Do you patch to groove for your .50?
CM

[powderburnerr]

yup ,and I also use adifferent mould that drops a tapered bullet , so I use all kinds of them and feel that they all have their place it is only a matter of what you as the loader wants to accomplish.I have also deep seated a 446 before wrapped bullet in the 45 with real good results .truly they all work it just depends on what you want....Dean

[martinibelgian]

Bullshop,

If so - then why do revolvers with too small cylinder throats don't shoot well? After all, if the bullet does bump up completely before entering the forcing cone...

[Bullshop]

Martin
I think your being too absolute in your thinking. I dont think there are any absolutes in this game.
You have used the word completely which I did not apply. The only complete here is that I dont completely understand it either.
To get back to the test I refered to the test was done starting with loads that would barely push the boolit out the cylender and went to progresivly hotter loads which produced progresivly greater base expansion.
Also I would refer you to the book Loading The Peacmaker by Dave Scovill. In it you will find that accurate loads can be made for revolvers with cylender throats that are smaller than groove diameter of the barrel it must shoot into. The key to accuracy there was soft boolits. In fact Dave has for many years expressed his belief that most revolver accuracy problems with boolits are caused by too hard an alloy.
How does all this fit in with what the subject was here, I dont really know. You take the information evaluate it and let me know what you came up with. Thanks a 1,000,000,000.
BIC/BS

[martinibelgian]

Maybe no absolutes, but it does indicate that bullet hardness can have an effect in at least delaying bump up - otherwise those hard bullets would shoot equally well as the soft ones. I don't know either whatever is behind it, but alloy hardness does play an important role.

[Bullshop]

Yes and pressure!
Here is a good one for ya.
A customer brings in an 1886 Win to see if I can get it to shoot. It was his Dads and he wanted to hunt Sitka deer with it. It is chambered for the 38/56 win. He had purchased some commercial hard cast for it but his loads were tumbling at 50 yards.
These old win rifles are notorious for only accepting a boolit diameter in the chamber that is smaller than barrel groove diameter. As in many of the old BP guns they shot bore diameter boolits and depended on obturation.
To complicate things when I ran a cleaning rod with tight patch down the barrel I found there was a goose egg large enough to let the patch fall through until it hit the rifling on the other side about mid way down the barrel.
After a lot of test shooting I found the only thing that would shoot good was a very soft alloy or pure lead.
He said he would be happy if he could hit a tea cup at 100 yards but it did even better than that with soft lead boolits.
So I guess even at mid barrel the slug was obturating enough at the swell in the barrel to keep the gas seal then swage back down and still shoot good.
I guess that prooves what you are saying because a harder alloy would loose the seal and once there was blow by they shot terrible. Still though if the rifle could handle it and the pressure could have been high enough to obturate the harder alloy it would have worked the same way. So there is a relationship between hardness and pressure for obturation as we all knew but what were are wondering about is time and motion and where does the obturation take place. Is it instantly and before the entire boolit is in motion or other? I dont know. I know I am getting in over my head!
BIC/BS

[montana_charlie]

So there is a relationship between hardness and pressure for obturation as we all knew but what were are wondering about is time and motion and where does the obturation take place. Is it instantly and before the entire boolit is in motion or other? I dont know. I know I am getting in over my head!
BIC/BS
And to complicate that issue...
The answer about 'where' and 'how much' the bullet fattens probably changes when the propellant changes from BP to smokeless.
I think that is why you hear guys say to use 'patched to bore' for BP...and 'patched to groove' for smokless. I think patched to groove must(?) be used for smokeless because the 'where' is too far down the barrel, and the 'how much' is too little.

CM

[Bullshop]

Your right Charlie and to get that 86 to shoot smokless I had to go to quite a fast powder. As I recall it was 4227.
In that revolver test I mentioned, the one with no barrel something I found interesting was that the slug continued to obturate after it was free fron the confines of the cylender. The slugs were perfect clasic mushrooms in reverce. Energy in motion I guess.
BIC/BS